Re: God Thread, Pt. III

[Cruijf]

On the other hand, if I told you that a divine, infinite, perfect being created you and made the sole purpose of your life to obey him and live by his morally right, divine standards, what would the result be? Provided you believed me, of course you would follow me.

Except history teaches us, that they don't. Religious people do f*cked up things all the time, they just find an obscure passage in the Bible, Quran, or whatever, that seems to legitimize what they're doing. And if they look long enough, they'll probably find a passage that actually does it.

Just look over a map, the lowest crime-rates, and highest standard of living, is to be found in the most secular and atheistic nations in the world, in the Scandinavian countries.

It doesn't necessarily mean that they've got less crime because they're atheist, but it really does mean that religion can't be incredibly helpfull.

The most atheist country in the world is France (33%) according to recent statistics. Compare that to the US (20%) and you'll see they're worse in basically every aspect. If you ignore the raw numbers (US is much bigger than france) and just look at the per capita and percentage statistics, you'll see exactly what I mean.

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/France/United-States/Crime

[stevieg8]

On the other hand, if I told you that a divine, infinite, perfect being created you and made the sole purpose of your life to obey him and live by his morally right, divine standards, what would the result be? Provided you believed me, of course you would follow me.

Except history teaches us, that they don't. Religious people do f*cked up things all the time, they just find an obscure passage in the Bible, Quran, or whatever, that seems to legitimize what they're doing. And if they look long enough, they'll probably find a passage that actually does it.

Just look over a map, the lowest crime-rates, and highest standard of living, is to be found in the most secular and atheistic nations in the world, in the Scandinavian countries.

It doesn't necessarily mean that they've got less crime because they're atheist, but it really does mean that religion can't be incredibly helpfull.

The most atheist country in the world is France (33%) according to recent statistics. Compare that to the US (20%) and you'll see they're worse in basically every aspect. If you ignore the raw numbers (US is much bigger than france) and just look at the per capita and percentage statistics, you'll see exactly what I mean.

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/France/United-States/Crime

Making comparisons on the basis of two data points is very VERY flawed analysis. The facts are that what Viva has said is supported. He also, quite intelligently, stated that the correlation does not necessarily mean causation, but the statistics do back up his statement. If you don't want to crunch all the numbers yourself, you can look up the numerous studies that have done it for you already. If you do choose to analyze these, I would suggest using Stata or R to account for factors such as economic status and levels of poverty, as well as prevalence of urban areas, before examining what the connection between religiosity and crime is.

But I'll save you the time - Viva's right.

[7amood11]

Name two.

Couldn't find total crime rates, but by homicide rates, Morocco and Tunisia.

Source

Still, even though it was proven that more atheistic countries have lower crime rates, it doesn't mean that it has low crime rates because it's more atheistic, as already mentioned. There too many factors that affect a country's crime rate.

[free_cat]

It doesn't really matter if religious people/countries are less prone to crime. This thread is about believing, and people should believe in something because it's real and/or has evidence in it's favour.
And religions don't have evidence on their side, on the contrary, they have evidence against them that proves they are all false. All of them.

Oh, explain to the 17 volunteer polio vaccinators killed in Pakistan by religious fanatics that religion makes people more moral. It's the biggest lie of all.

[7amood11]

So you're using the incidents in Pakistan to justify your reasoning? Sorry, but that's just wrong.

Many incidents similar to this one happen in the Muslim world (but are not confined to it) not because of the religion in those countries, but rather because there is a severe lack of education in those countries, especially South Asian ones (no offense). And wherever in the world where there is a lack of proper education, similar incidents will occur. That is where you are misunderstanding the situation. You think they kill because of the religion. And while they claim that they are doing this in the name of Islam, it is because they are deluded and are uneducated. If they had a proper education, they wouldn't be murdering like this.

Also, this has been said many times already, but I'm going to repeat it because it's true: These incidents are a misrepresentation of Islam.

> Senseless murder of innocent people is prohibited in Islam.
> These people are senselessly murdering innocent people.
> These people are not following the teachings of Islam.

It's as simple as that. I don't know what's so hard to understand here.

religion makes people more moral.

Religion does make people more moral. Religion is MY moral barometer, and it is the same case for many others. While you don't have to be religious to be moral, religion undoubtedly does help many people become more moral.

[free_cat]

So you're using the incidents in Pakistan to justify your reasoning? Sorry, but that's just wrong.

No, I'm not using that incident. My point is that in order to believe in something you need evidence, not considerations over if it is useful in terms of morality or happines to believe in it. Religions has ALL EVIDENCE AGAINST them, so you shouldn't believe it.

These incidents are a misrepresentation of Islam.
> Senseless murder of innocent people is prohibited in Islam.
> These people are senselessly murdering innocent people.
> These people are not following the teachings of Islam.

It's as simple as that. I don't know what's so hard to understand here.

You should try to explain it to those tens of milions of Muslims around the world that have a different interpretation of your religion and consider they have to kill people in the name of their religion.

One question for you: Why are you sure your interpretation is the TRUE while theirs is false? Isn't it possible that they are right? Or most likely, isn't it possible that all your interpretations are wrong because religions are FALSE? Think about it, why should just your religious current be the only real one if all the rest are fake... isn't that a huge coincidence?

Religion clearly doesn't help people to be moral. Firsts, religious moral principles are fcked up, there are many religious moral principles that are wrong for nowadays moral standards. Second, if they are the word of an eternal god the moral principles would be the same all over time and space, and we see that morality evolves and is different in different places.
Finally, we see how many bad things are done in the name of religion, while there has never been anything bad done in the name of atheism (lack of believe).

Touche.

[7amood11]

No, I'm not using that incident. My point is that in order to believe in something you need evidence, not considerations over if it is useful in terms of morality or happiness to believe in it. Religions has ALL EVIDENCE AGAINST them, so you shouldn't believe it.

There is evidence supporting religion but I can't even bother arguing about it. It's been argued so many times and it leads absolutely nowhere. Read through this thread and the two previous ones for some input.

You should try to explain it to those tens of milions of Muslims around the world that have a different interpretation of your religion and consider they have to kill people in the name of their religion.

One question for you: Why are you sure your interpretation is the TRUE while theirs is false? Isn't it possible that they are right? Or most likely, isn't it possible that all your interpretations are wrong because religions are FALSE? Think about it, why should just your religious current be the only real one if all the rest are fake... isn't that a huge coincidence?

First of all, tens of millions? Are you serious? I think you've been living under a rock if you actually believe what you just said.

Second of all, wrong. Their "interpretation" cannot be considered as one because it blatantly violates some of the basic principles of Islam which are in the Quran. No matter what they think they cannot dispute what is in the Quran because it is the word of Allah (swt).

Examples:

"And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression."

"If any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people; and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people"

These are only a couple of the many verses and hadiths that prohibit murder.

The people who murder in the name of Islam are in CLEAR violation in these verses and other verses and hadiths. There is NO justification for what they are doing. The Quran has NO justification for murder of innocent civilians.

As I mentioned earlier, these people are murdering innocent people because of their lack of education. Did that idea just fly over your head?

Again, you are completely wrong and way off the mark.

Religion clearly doesn't help people to be moral. Firsts, religious moral principles are fcked up, there are many religious moral principles that are wrong for nowadays moral standards. Second, if they are the word of an eternal god the moral principles would be the same all over time and space, and we see that morality evolves and is different in different places.
Finally, we see how many bad things are done in the name of religion, while there has never been anything bad done in the name of atheism (lack of believe).

Touche.

First off, while I do acknowledge that there are a few religious moral principles that don't fit into today's society. However, the vast majority of religious moral principles are still very relevant and very applicable in today's world. Many of the moral principles I and many other people live by are mentioned in Islam, and I'm not a bad person.

Secondly, I'll repeat this for the umpteenth time: the people who murder in the name of Islam do so because they are uneducated fools. It is a misrepresentation of Islam.

And actually, many anti-religion and Islamophobic crimes occur all over the world unfortunately. However, I'm not an idiot so I won't say that they commit these crimes because they're atheist. They commit these crimes because they are uneducated fools.

Honestly, I am astonished that there is still so much ignorance about Islam. I can't believe how many silly misconceptions I see about Islam everyday. It's ridiculous.

[bazinga]

Whatever you say about Islam, the amount of violence being perpetrated in its name is simply inexcusable, and diminishes the world's impression of it.

And why are all the religious folk dismissing or ignoring mine and free's points about the burden of proof? Bring us some tangible proof of "God" other than some lines in a book, the burden of proof is still on you.

[Casciavit]

Came across this, you might find it interesting.

http://www.islam101.com/tauheed/provingGodExists.htm

[7amood11]

Whatever you say about Islam, the amount of violence being perpetrated in its name is simply inexcusable, and diminishes the world's impression of it.

Yes, I understand that. Did you read my earlier post though?

Many incidents similar to this one happen in the Muslim world (but are not confined to it) not because of the religion in those countries, but rather because there is a severe lack of education in those countries, especially South Asian ones (no offense). And wherever in the world where there is a lack of proper education, similar incidents will occur. That is where you are misunderstanding the situation. You think they kill because of the religion. And while they claim that they are doing this in the name of Islam, it is because they are deluded and are uneducated. If they had a proper education, they wouldn't be murdering like this. And murder in Islam is prohibited too.

[bazinga]

Whatever you say about Islam, the amount of violence being perpetrated in its name is simply inexcusable, and diminishes the world's impression of it.

Yes, I understand that. Did you read my earlier post though?

Many incidents similar to this one happen in the Muslim world (but are not confined to it) not because of the religion in those countries, but rather because there is a severe lack of education in those countries, especially South Asian ones (no offense). And wherever in the world where there is a lack of proper education, similar incidents will occur. That is where you are misunderstanding the situation. You think they kill because of the religion. And while they claim that they are doing this in the name of Islam, it is because they are deluded and are uneducated. If they had a proper education, they wouldn't be murdering like this. And murder in Islam is prohibited too.

I agree with that mate. I have Muslim friends who are awesome people. Note I spoke specifically of the world's opinion, not my own. I don't feel it's better or worse than any religion.

[Casciavit]

Whatever you say about Islam, the amount of violence being perpetrated in its name is simply inexcusable, and diminishes the world's impression of it.

And why are all the religious folk dismissing or ignoring mine and free's points about the burden of proof? Bring us some tangible proof of "God" other than some lines in a book, the burden of proof is still on you.

I'm assuming you want scientific facts? So here you go.

http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1.htm

[stevieg8]

Whatever you say about Islam, the amount of violence being perpetrated in its name is simply inexcusable, and diminishes the world's impression of it.

And why are all the religious folk dismissing or ignoring mine and free's points about the burden of proof? Bring us some tangible proof of "God" other than some lines in a book, the burden of proof is still on you.

I'm assuming you want scientific facts? So here you go.

http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1.htm

This uses some HEAVY interpretation of metaphor to reach its conclusions. Taken literally, every example provided is profoundly wrong. Only when they are read into to an enormous degree can one find scientific fact in them.

Doesn't mean it's wrong, just means its another example of you can see whatever you want if you look hard enough for it. Also, something I've seen repeatedly in other religions. There's a 200 page book at my Synogogue detailing step by step how the depiction of creation in Genesis aligns perfectly with the scientific steps of the Big Bang Theory.

[bazinga]

The ancient Greeks knew a lot of these purported facts far before circa 600 AD.

[bazinga]

Whatever you say about Islam, the amount of violence being perpetrated in its name is simply inexcusable, and diminishes the world's impression of it.

And why are all the religious folk dismissing or ignoring mine and free's points about the burden of proof? Bring us some tangible proof of "God" other than some lines in a book, the burden of proof is still on you.

I'm assuming you want scientific facts? So here you go.

http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1.htm

This uses some HEAVY interpretation of metaphor to reach its conclusions. Taken literally, every example provided is profoundly wrong. Only when they are read into to an enormous degree can one find scientific fact in them.

Doesn't mean it's wrong, just means its another example of you can see whatever you want if you look hard enough for it. Also, something I've seen repeatedly in other religions. There's a 200 page book at my Synogogue detailing step by step how the depiction of creation in Genesis aligns perfectly with the scientific steps of the Big Bang Theory.

And yes, this too.

[Cruijf]

This uses some HEAVY interpretation of metaphor to reach its conclusions. Taken literally, every example provided is profoundly wrong.

Can you please then 'take this literally'? Give me any other interpretation of the verses provided. Because last I checked, if I said something looked like something, then that's that. There's only one interpretation of my statement: That thing A resembles thing B in appearance. And in this case, this is knowledge that was unknown.

On the Greeks, they were extremely educated and knowledgeable, Muhammad (PBUH) was not. Even if he was though, the only fact that was presented in that article that was also found in Greek literature as far as I now was the embryology point, and even the Greeks didn't present as complete of an understanding as the Quran.

[bazinga]

The Greeks had profound understanding of cosmic movement, rotation of the earth, size of the earth, understood the phenomenon of weather, air, wind, calculated the approximate radius of the earth and also ran the first real library nearly 1500 years before Muhammad.

[free_cat]

Whatever you say about Islam, the amount of violence being perpetrated in its name is simply inexcusable, and diminishes the world's impression of it.

And why are all the religious folk dismissing or ignoring mine and free's points about the burden of proof? Bring us some tangible proof of "God" other than some lines in a book, the burden of proof is still on you.

I'm assuming you want scientific facts? So here you go.

http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1.htm

The introduction of this site is hilarious:

"The Quran is the literal word of God, which He revealed to His Prophet Muhammad through the Angel Gabriel. The Holy Quran was memorized by Muhammad , who then dictated it to his Companions. They, in turn, memorized it, wrote it down, and reviewed it with the Prophet Muhammad. Moreover, the Prophet Muhammad reviewed the Quran with the Angel Gabriel once each year and twice in the last year of his life."

Do muslims really believe this rubbish literally? What are we, 3 years old? We believe in angels coming back and forth from heaven to discuss with a bearded guy in a cave the word of God? Why not believe in leprechauns and goblins too?

Frigging hilarious.

On the "Quran scientific miracles", I didn't have to go more than one page to see it's bollocks. This clear mistake from the Quran, saying Man comes from clay, is interpreted like a scientific miracle that "clearly" says that humans are developed in an embryo (!):

"We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)... 1 (Quran, 23:12-14)"

That's supposed to be a Quran revelation.

Read other revelations, and most of them are crazy interpretations or not impressive facts that could well be known at that time or intuited.

[free_cat]

According to that site, this is a scientific revelation of the big bang theory:

" Then He turned to the heaven when it was smoke... (Quran, 41:11)"

So, you know, the universe comes from smoke and man from clay, god's word and accurate scientific revelation.

Islam.

[7amood11]

Do muslims really believe this rubbish?

Stop being a hypocrite. You are the last one to talk about others believing rubbish. The amount of nonsense you spewed about Islam on the previous page puts you in no position to talk .

[Casciavit]

There's a story that I was taught in an Islamic academy, about one of the miracles, Allah did during the prophet Muhammad's time.

So the disbelievers were telling Muhammad that he was a fraud, and they wanted evidence that he was a prophet, and a messenger of God. They asked for proof, that Allah exists and what power he has. Muhammad said by the power of Allah I will point my index finger at the moon and swipe it in half, and the moon will split into 2 parts, he did that, and the moon split into 2. The disbelievers were surprised and many of them converted into Islam because of that. And what's funny is that scientists have discovered that there is in fact a crack on the moon. And there are pictures of that as well. If you want a more in depth explanation I have a link for it. Which is in the bottom of the post great read with many topics and subjects.

Want to here things in the Quran, that are backed up by science, okay.

Quran says: Earth is Spherical. It's Suspended in Space. It's Rotating around itself. (emphasis on dahaha and its derivatives)4- Is traveling in Space.

The Miracle of the Space Fabric - Mentioned in the Glorious Quran and confirmed by Science.

The Universe is "expanding" according to the Noble Quran. Scientists already proved this claim to be true.

Darkness in the seas and internal waves in the Noble Quran, confirmed by science.

Man is created from a "Speeding and Struggling Sperm" - Mentioned in the Glorious Quran and confirmed by Science!

The expansion of the earth - mentioned in the Noble Quran and confirmed by Science.

Water on earth shall vanish - mentioned in the Noble Quran and confirmed by Science!

The Lunar Calendar is the most accurate calendar - mentioned in the Noble Quran and confirmed by Science.

Mosquitoes and Humans both have the same amount of sensory hearing cells - Supported in the Noble Quran and Confirmed by Science!

The Fly's Digestive Miracle - Mentioned in the Holy Quran and Confirmed by Science!

The Miracle of separating the salty seas' waters from each others (with barriers) - Mentioned in the Glorious Quran and confirmed by Science.

Not enough? There are more of these from this link. http://www.answering-christianity.com/moon_split.htm

The thing is Quran isn't even a book of science, its a book of signs. Want a link for predictions in Islam that have come true, that are coming true, or those that have yet to come true, here you go. http://www.freewebs.com/proofofislam/predictionsinislam.htm

And don't give me the excuse that the ancient Greeks knew about this stuff when they didn't.

Free_cat will respond to your statement later, as i'm currently busy right now.

[free_cat]

Do muslims really believe this rubbish?

Stop being a hypocrite. You are the last one to talk about others believing rubbish. The amount of nonsense you spewed about Islam on the previous page puts you in no position to talk .

A hypocrite? I don't believe in any non evidence based stuff, unless I've got the evidence wrong. I obviously exagerated with "tens of millions", but to have so many Islam violence, you need a very big social support.

Btw, you agreed in the previous page, that there are some religious moral principles that are not valid currently. That alone proves religion is not God's word, because God's word would be valid forever and everywhere. Only one invalid moral principle proves religion to be man-made and God unexistent.

[7amood11]

A hypocrite? I don't believe in any non evidence based stuff, unless I've got the evidence wrong. I obviously exagerated with "tens of millions", but to have so many Islam violence, you need a very big social support.

Btw, you agreed in the previous page, that there are some religious moral principles that are not valid currently. That alone proves religion is not God's word, because God's word would be valid forever and everywhere. Only one invalid moral principle proves religion to be man-made and God unexistent.

First of all, yes, it is hypocritical of you to bash other people saying they believe "rubbish" when you have so many misconceptions yourself.

Second, it was my mistake for not clarifying in the previous post. I did not mean religious principles proposed by Islam, I meant principles that were okay 1400 years ago in that society may not fit in today's society. Note, I am referring to moral principles that were widespread all over the world back then, not confined to the Muslim world. And lol about it disproving anything

[rwo power]

Well, for "god given" moral principles, I really love the satirical debunking of the Leviticus rules from the OT of the Bible which were done a while ago in response to some over zealous radio host:

Dr Laura and Leviticus

Laura Schlesinger is a US radio personality, who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. She recently said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination, according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstances. The following response is an open letter to Dr. Laura which was posted on the Internet.

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination... End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath.Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle- room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16.

Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your adoring fan,
Homer Simpson-Caldwell

Source: http://www.ariel.com.au/jokes/Dr_Laura_and_Leviticus.html (among many others)

[free_cat]

A hypocrite? I don't believe in any non evidence based stuff, unless I've got the evidence wrong. I obviously exagerated with "tens of millions", but to have so many Islam violence, you need a very big social support.

Btw, you agreed in the previous page, that there are some religious moral principles that are not valid currently. That alone proves religion is not God's word, because God's word would be valid forever and everywhere. Only one invalid moral principle proves religion to be man-made and God unexistent.

First of all, yes, it is hypocritical of you to bash other people saying they believe "rubbish" when you have so many misconceptions yourself.

Second, it was my mistake for not clarifying in the previous post. I did not mean religious principles proposed by Islam, I meant principles that were okay 1400 years ago in that society may not fit in today's society. Note, I am referring to moral principles that were widespread all over the world back then, not confined to the Muslim world. And lol about it disproving anything

My conception is that Islam is false, as well as any other religions, and evidence backs me up.

You should try to worry more about the conceptions of your Islam fellows who are constantly terrorizing, killing, threatening in the name of your religion, not my conceptions.

What are your conceptions? That an angel went back and forth from the heavenz recited the eternal word of an all powerful an omnipresent God in old arabic to an insignificant bearded man in a cave in the midle east, who afterwards wrote it down and rechecked it with said Angel?

Seriously?

[Potential]

I've been a way for quite a while, just wanted to drop something...

The large majority who aren't emotionally affiliated with either of the quran, bible, or any other book for that matter will see them as pure madness.

If either of the books are the real words of a supreme being, it'll can not be viewed as madness regardless of the personality of the person looking into it.

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