Let's List Our Own Top Ten Of 2011-12

Your obviously a far better man then I am JD cause I have put Jiopsi and Billionmillion on my ignore list, and I havent even been back a week. Never thought I would have to block fellow Barca fans but how they have annoyed me so.

On-topic, I've changed my top 10 a little.

1.Ronaldo
2.Messi
3.Iniesta
4.Xavi
5.Pirlo
6.Ibrahimovic
7.Ribery
8.Ozil
9.Casillas
10.Any Man City player

In my opinion:
1. Messi
2.Iniesta
3.Ozil
4.Xavi
5.Pirlo
6.Casillas
7.Ronaldo
8. Ibrahimovic
9.Busquets
10.Di Maria

Jonathan28 wrote:Your obviously a far better man then I am JD cause I have put Jiopsi and Billionmillion on my ignore list, and I havent even been back a week. Never thought I would have to block fellow Barca fans but how they have annoyed me so.

Thanks jonathan. I agree that it's really sad if we have to block fellow Barca fans. I don't think I have done that yet. No one is saying you have to agree with me. You can 100% disagree if you so desire. However there is such a thing as showing respect towards a difference of opinion and also understanding what someone else has posted before starting your attack against him.

Jonathan dont defend yourself bringing JD into it. JD at least has brain what you posted in previous comments all were embarrassing jokes. and when you are proven wrong you changed the topic or didnt reply so discussing with you doesnt make a sense

messixaviesta wrote:
2. If I have the two best midfielders in the world I will not support playing a forward as my main midfielder even if he is the best player in the world. That's just my opinion and everyone else can disagree if they want. Yes some adjustments were made because of new players and injuries but I also felt that Pep reduced himself from a brilliant coach to too much of a fan of Messi. He tried to give Messi center stage all the time at the expense of other players. It's purely speculative and I can't prove it but I do at times think that if Pep had played Xavi and Iniesta together in midfield right through the season and asked Messi to stay further up instead of dropping back so much we would have won UCL and perhaps even La Liga. I am not blaming Messi at all for all this but I do blame Pep. He was outstanding for three seasons and disappointing in his last one.

Only 1 penalty seperated Barca from success. only 1 taken chance out of 20 would put barca in the final and if you are blaming Pep for this then it hurts more than the lose itself. team comes to the CL final destroying all and plays a great match and creates 20 chances in the match you are saying it was wrong i dont know what to say. in la liga it was clear that team were not in full strength injuries and new players its expected the formation would change

about pep being a messi fan. why he is fan of messi, because of his look? or height? or money? of course messi gets everything because of his greatness. why everybody passes the ball to messi because he is so great you can not avoid him. messi is the best creator in the team, best space opener, best one-two player, best finisher dribbler and runner. so a player like this will get all the passes and team will be built around him. system has nothing to do with this

JD, i feel it is slightly unfair to take credit away from Messi this season, because of Pep who tried a new formation, players etc which did not work. I feel Messi did the best he could especially with the lack of a pre-season.

I think he has done enough to deserve a Balon D'or this season even though he did not win anything. Although I will admit that there are others too who are deserving this prize too, maybe as much as Messi.

Its very sad that 1 month long euro cup changed JD i never seen him delusional like this before, he says i'm blindly defending messi but he forgets that he himself blindly taking credit from him asking delusional and annoying questions. i dont know who is more blind a person who shares 95% barca posters opinion or a person who shares only jonathan's opinion

yes i know you only ask questions you dont claim anything JD

billionmillion wrote:Its very sad that 1 month long euro cup changed JD i never seen him delusional like this before, he says i'm blindly defending messi but he forgets that he himself blindly taking credit from him asking delusional and annoying questions. i dont know who is more blind a person who shares 95% barca posters opinion or a person who shares only jonathan's opinion

yes i know you only ask questions you dont claim anything JD

billion, I would have replied to your first post but after reading this there is only one thing left to do and that is to put you in my ignore list. Goodbye forever.

kiranr wrote:JD, i feel it is slightly unfair to take credit away from Messi this season, because of Pep who tried a new formation, players etc which did not work. I feel Messi did the best he could especially with the lack of a pre-season.

Agreed kiran. I am not trying to take credit away from Messi. I am not trying to blame him for the failures. It's what I call apportioning of responsibility. In 2008-09 for instance we had a team in which all eleven players took around 10% responsibility ( Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, etc. a little more; some a little less ). In 2011-12 on the other hand we had Messi taking around 50% of the responsibility. This is what I don't like one bit. We have so many fantastic players. Why should we underuse/undervalue some of them just because we also have the best player in the world? Let the best player take the best position and do his role or maybe even a little more than that but he still does not need to be entrusted the roles of five players combined. We are essentially copying Argentina's model of playing Messi in a Maradona-esque one man show role. Ideally even Argentina should not be doing that but of all teams why should we do it who have world class players in literally every position. Anyway coming back to the point of 50% responsibility. Now in such a scenario if success happens then the credit is 50% Messi's. Similarly if failure happens then the blame is also 50% Messi's. The situation has become akin to that of Argentina and that is so unfortunate. From world's best team we have tried to become a one man show of some kind that I for one just don't like at all.

messixaviesta wrote:

billionmillion wrote:Its very sad that 1 month long euro cup changed JD i never seen him delusional like this before, he says i'm blindly defending messi but he forgets that he himself blindly taking credit from him asking delusional and annoying questions. i dont know who is more blind a person who shares 95% barca posters opinion or a person who shares only jonathan's opinion

yes i know you only ask questions you dont claim anything JD

billion, I would have replied to your first post but after reading this there is only one thing left to do and that is to put you in my ignore list. Goodbye forever.

That's rather childish and your proving his point by ignoring him.
Anyways, tell me how you think Pep is a Messi fan, because a team passes the ball to him more than others? if the president/king/queen of your country needs you to preform surgery on him/her would you let the third/second best surgeon do it or #1 in the world..

messixaviesta wrote:

Agreed kiran. I am not trying to take credit away from Messi. I am not trying to blame him for the failures. It's what I call apportioning of responsibility. In 2008-09 for instance we had a team in which all eleven players took around 10% responsibility ( Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, etc. a little more; some a little less ). In 2011-12 on the other hand we had Messi taking around 50% of the responsibility. This is what I don't like one bit. We have so many fantastic players. Why should we underuse/undervalue some of them just because we also have the best player in the world? Let the best player take the best position and do his role or maybe even a little more than that but he still does not need to be entrusted the roles of five players combined. We are essentially copying Argentina's model of playing Messi in a Maradona-esque one man show role. Ideally even Argentina should not be doing that but of all teams why should we do it who have world class players in literally every position. Anyway coming back to the point of 50% responsibility. Now in such a scenario if success happens then the credit is 50% Messi's. Similarly if failure happens then the blame is also 50% Messi's. The situation has become akin to that of Argentina and that is so unfortunate. From world's best team we have tried to become a one man show of some kind that I for one just don't like at all.

I understand your point JD.

But, responsibility should also be apportioned to the coach, which, in this case is Pep. He was the one who shunted Iniesta on the wing. And he was the one who played Fabregas in the midfield. And he made a few other mistakes over the season as well.

Messi is not responsible for players not playing in their best positions. The way i see it, Messi played his role well. Sure he made a few mistakes like the penalty misses, but what more could we expect of him when he has been asked to play this particular role.

And yes, Barcelona should not be depending on Messi because of the wealth of it has. Hopefully Tito will shift us from this road we are along now and involve everyone in the creation of goals.

Jonathan28 wrote:Your obviously a far better man then I am JD cause I have put Jiopsi and Billionmillion on my ignore list, and I havent even been back a week. Never thought I would have to block fellow Barca fans but how they have annoyed me so.

On-topic, I've changed my top 10 a little.

1.Ronaldo
2.Messi
3.Iniesta
4.Xavi
5.Pirlo
6.Ibrahimovic
7.Ribery
8.Ozil
9.Casillas
10.Any Man City player

Can you explain why Cristiano deserve it this season?
Why not Casillas? Messi? Iniesta? Pirlo?

Donuts wrote:
That's rather childish and your proving his point by ignoring him.
Anyways, tell me how you think Pep is a Messi fan, because a team passes the ball to him more than others? if the president/king/queen of your country needs you to preform surgery on him/her would you let the third/second best surgeon do it or #1 in the world..

1. I gave him enough of a chance to discuss civilly and he showed himself incapable of doing that. So I took an action of the kind that is nothing new for me. Anyway that has nothing to do with you and so let's move to your point instead.

2. No it's not about the ball being passed to Messi more. It's about Messi dropping too deep too often. This pushes Xavi too deep and Iniesta too much to the left. Effectively Messi, a forward by trade, plays as a midfielder when we have too many of them already and are short of forwards or shall we say he plays like a number 10 when there is no place in our usual system and playing style for such a role. Who would I give the job to? I would choose horses for courses. Messi is not a midfield specialist. Xavi and Iniesta on the other hand are just that and that too of the highest class. Yes Messi can have more individual impact than any other player but Xaviesta can give us a vice like grip of the game which results in sustained domination. Hence my decision is clear. Messi largely stays in the final third and Xavi and Iniesta get full freedom in the midfield to play their best in a 4-3-3. You or anyone else here of course has no need to agree in the slightest with me but these are my honest views and I have felt like that for a long time now but have only after many months begun sharing them here.

P.S. - If you want the discussion to continue then keep it civil.

kiranr wrote:
I understand your point JD.

But, responsibility should also be apportioned to the coach, which, in this case is Pep. He was the one who shunted Iniesta on the wing. And he was the one who played Fabregas in the midfield. And he made a few other mistakes over the season as well.

Messi is not responsible for players not playing in their best positions. The way i see it, Messi played his role well. Sure he made a few mistakes like the penalty misses, but what more could we expect of him when he has been asked to play this particular role.

And yes, Barcelona should not be depending on Messi because of the wealth of it has. Hopefully Tito will shift us from this road we are along now and involve everyone in the creation of goals.

That 100% correct kiran. Very well said. Agree with every word.

I think its not a playstation game saying xavi and iniesta doing all things in midfield is wrong. iniesta dribbles on the left but xavi can not do this so messi drops deep when things is not going well and starts the attack dribbling, making one-twos and opens space for other attackers.

I will list 5-6 clasico matches that messi dropped deep and assisted.

- messi dropped deep dribbled opened space for iniesta and iniesta scored a goal against R.Madrid,
- in another clasico messi again dropped deep dribbled opened space and assisted for pedro and pedro scored.
- in another clasico messi again dropped deep opened space for abidal and abidal scored.
- another clasico messi dropped deep opened space for villa and villa scored
- in another one messi again dropped deep dribbled and assisted for sanchez

Khaled reasons for placing Ronaldo first is mainly because he played a major part in Madrid winning their first major trophy in 4 years, being instrumental in them reachimg the CL semi-finals and for having a decent Euros. I could have put Pirlo first yes, since he also helped Juventus win Serie A unbeaten and had a better Euro's then Ronaldo.

But, his non-participation in the CL counts against him, since we do not know whether he could have maintained that level of performance if he was playing twice a week. Iniesta whilst having a below-par season mainly due to being played out of position still had a wonderful Euro's, and thw Ballon D'Or has been won for much less.

I have already given reasons for not making Messi number one. My top ten isn't definite, and is subject to change, so I may make Pirlo first if I decide to give him a pass on not playing in the CL.

Giggity5313 wrote:The messi sucking up needs to stop. Yes IMO he was better then ronaldo, but he had the whole team centered around him this season. Earlier seasons I'd disagree, it was a more collective team effort. Messi did try his best, but lets be honest, he did flop at times during away games and some UCL matches.

At real madrid the team is actually centered more towards ozil provided he plays in position.

I don't think Madrid is centered around anyone player, which is actually a very good thing. Mou did a good job there.

Giggity5313 wrote:The messi sucking up needs to stop. Yes IMO he was better then ronaldo, but he had the whole team centered around him this season. Earlier seasons I'd disagree, it was a more collective team effort. Messi did try his best, but lets be honest, he did flop at times during away games and some UCL matches.

At real madrid the team is actually centered more towards ozil provided he plays in position.

Cronaldo's goals were much more team centered than Messi's, and the help Cronaldo gets for his goal, is a lot bigger than Messi gets in his. What away games did Messi flop? Or do you mean by flopping not scoring? Here's then an example of flopping:

Perfect example. culminating Messi, and La Liga, luck, referees etc.

First game against Valencia (away) 2-2 and Messi didn't score, yet

- Assisted both Barcelona's goals (isn't only about scoring)
- Should have had 2 penalties by his own individual effort, and second yellow and red card for Valencian player. (referees and luck in the first half of the season)
- At last moments gave Villa 1on1 to give Barca all three points (bad finishing)

Barcelona lost La Liga, because they were not collectively good enough, and lets be honest, Moudrid had refs in their pocket 1st half of the season.

Jonathan28 wrote:Khaled reasons for placing Ronaldo first is mainly because he played a major part in Madrid winning their first major trophy in 4 years, being instrumental in them reachimg the CL semi-finals and for having a decent Euros. I could have put Pirlo first yes, since he also helped Juventus win Serie A unbeaten and had a better Euro's then Ronaldo.

But, his non-participation in the CL counts against him, since we do not know whether he could have maintained that level of performance if he was playing twice a week. Iniesta whilst having a below-par season mainly due to being played out of position still had a wonderful Euro's, and thw Ballon D'Or has been won for much less.

I have already given reasons for not making Messi number one. My top ten isn't definite, and is subject to change, so I may make Pirlo first if I decide to give him a pass on not playing in the CL.

Casillas won Euro & Liga (playing an important role on his team).

Cristiano had a very good season (stats wise//goals)... But so did Ozil (assists for Real & Germany), Casillas (saves for Real & Spain..)...
Casillas won the most (Liga+Liga+UCL Semi)...
So according to your logic, Casillas deserves it more.
-------------------

Euro Performance:
1- Iniesta
2- Pirlo
3- Ozil
4- Casillas
5- Cristiano

But, when it comes to performance for Club, its hard to decide who's better this season (between players in different Positions):
I know that Messi was number 1 (2011/12).
But how can we compare Casillas (GK), Ozil (AM), Iniesta (CM), Pirlo (CM) and Cristiano (Forward) performance?

Cristiano has the goals (60) for Real Madrid.
Ozil has the assists (24).
Stats doesn't show the work done by Casillas, Pirlo and Iniesta on the pitch.

1- Pirlo was Juve's best player by some distance.. The playe who made the difference and helped them win the scudetto... But, I do agree with you, Pirlo not playing UCL last season is a factor against him... Playing 1 game/week much easier than 1 game every 3-4 days.

2- Iniesta did well in the 1st part of the season, was MOM against Real Madrid at Bernabeu (1-3 Win), but in the 2nd part of the season was not at his best... Opposite to Ozil, who was better in the 2nd part of the season (created most chances for Madrid including 24 assists.

3- Casillas, played a big role especially in the away games this season (away Liga games that where won by 1 goal margin, casillas made crucial saves) etc.. Also, helped Spain to win the Euro. (Trophy wise, he has the most major trophies Euro+Liga).

4- Cristiano, although he scored big numbers for Real Madrid (60). His overall performance was not consistent... When it comes to finishing, he had lower goals/shots ratio than Benzema and Higuain, he played more minutes etc.. Still Higuain and Benzema managed to score 29 and 32 goals respectively without penalties... (His goals+assists/game is the same as Benzema and Higuain)... I mentioned this point, to prove he wasn't the only player at madrid making the difference... He was a Key player, but so was Ozil, Benzema, Alosno and Casillas.
Messi was clearly the best at Barca (scored goals & yet he created more chances, assisted a lot although Villa/Pedro were not fit, Barca playing with no forwards...) While, Cristiano had most of his goals directly assisted, Ozil/DiMaria/Benzema/Alonso where creating the chances.


Individually, Messi was number one, others are behind (for me, its not who won more trophies...)
The question should be, Who had the best season individually? Messi.

The trophies where won by teams (not individuals)..
Cristiano, Casillas, Alosno, Ozil already won the Liga as a price for there collective work...
So did Iniesta, Casillas, Ramos, Alba, Xavi (Euro) ...

Giggity5313 wrote:The messi sucking up needs to stop. Yes IMO he was better then ronaldo, but he had the whole team centered around him this season. Earlier seasons I'd disagree, it was a more collective team effort. Messi did try his best, but lets be honest, he did flop at times during away games and some UCL matches.

At real madrid the team is actually centered more towards ozil provided he plays in position.

hmmm
1- Its Barca section.
2- Messi had the best individual season ever (so its normal that he gets the praise, cause he deserve it)
3- He flopped in UCL? When? (is missing a penalties, erase all the work he did in the whole tournament?
14 goals, 5 assists, 44 Dribbles and 32 chances created.
That's nothing? because he missed a penalty?
Against Chelsea, he created enough chance for his teammates (who missed), against chelsea it was LUCK not Messi.. in any other day.. Barca should have scored at least 3 goals at StamfordBridge, on the other hand, no one created a single chance for Messi to score in the game...

Away game, yes in the 1st 6 away games, he didn't score goals, but he was giving assists... That's what makes him special, Messi can be MOM without scoring a single goal (rewatch game against Valencia 2-2, Messi provided tons of assists, only 2 were scored, 2 clear penalties not called).. In fact, the 1st part of the Season Barca where denied 12+ penalties (including 7 for Messi, most where in away games) !!!
-----------------

Cristiano took 351 Shots in (Liga+UCL+SSC) !!
Most attacks should be finished by him...
I'm sure if Higuain had this number of shots and chances, would have scored more..

Do you know that Higuain scored 22 goals from JUST 60 shots in La Liga (Best ratio in Liga, maybe in europe/not sure)!

Giggity5313 wrote:

Khaled wrote:

Giggity5313 wrote:The messi sucking up needs to stop. Yes IMO he was better then ronaldo, but he had the whole team centered around him this season. Earlier seasons I'd disagree, it was a more collective team effort. Messi did try his best, but lets be honest, he did flop at times during away games and some UCL matches.

At real madrid the team is actually centered more towards ozil provided he plays in position.

hmmm
1- Its Barca section.
2- Messi had the best individual season ever (so its normal that he gets the praise, cause he deserve it)
3- He flopped in UCL? When? (is missing a penalties, erase all the work he did in the whole tournament?
14 goals, 5 assists, 44 Dribbles and 32 chances created.
That's nothing? because he missed a penalty?
Against Chelsea, he created enough chance for his teammates (who missed), against chelsea it was LUCK not Messi.. in any other day.. Barca should have scored at least 3 goals at StamfordBridge, on the other hand, no one created a single chance for Messi to score in the game...

Away game, yes in the 1st 6 away games, he didn't score goals, but he was giving assists... That's what makes him special, Messi can be MOM without scoring a single goal (rewatch game against Valencia 2-2, Messi provided tons of assists, only 2 were scored, 2 clear penalties not called).. In fact, the 1st part of the Season Barca where denied 12+ penalties (including 7 for Messi, most where in away games) !!!
-----------------

Cristiano took 351 Shots in (Liga+UCL+SSC) !!
Most attacks should be finished by him...
I'm sure if Higuain had this number of shots and chances, would have scored more..

Do you know that Higuain scored 22 goals from JUST 60 shots in La Liga (Best ratio in Liga, maybe in europe/not sure)!

HAHAHA you are hilarious! higuain do the same as ronaldo? If so why isn't he playing LW then? Explain to me. You know SO much better then mou so I guess you must be right..I watch madrid every week, so I'd know a bit better then you on that regard
Ronaldo is a long shot taker, so of course he is going to have this number of shots, plus he is the main free kick taker.. you are insanely delusional, I'd give you some medication to help. This is the barca fourm, your right, its not the messi forum. Against chelsea he was ZERO. Don't even get me started. Do you realize most of those goals came against scrub teams with scrub defenses?
I don't get it, messi also scored a bunch of useless goals which you seem to be ignoring, yet last season you were saying ronaldos goals were for nothing because la liga ended. ol..

You do realize throughout the UEFA Real Madrid's hardest opponents were Bayern Munich and... CSKA Moscow? While Barcelona played against Milan x3 Bayern Leverkusen, and champions Chelsea, but since Barcelona lost to the Champions all the past opponents are scrub teams with scrub defenses? are you sure you watched all Madrid games? lol and even then when Ronaldo had the easier teams to play against still didn't manage to come second in goal Tally for UEFA.

Giggity5313

giggity back to your cave the thread is "lets list our OWN top ten"

Khaled wrote:Giggity5313

actually yeah his posts make me smile too

Giggity, the Ronaldo sucking needs to stop sir, we here in Barcelona forums do not care for your obsession.