Let's List Our Own Top Ten Of 2011-12

BarcaKizz wrote:Thanks for the reply JD.

I think at the heart of our disagreement is probably the fact that I've always seen the award as based on individual achievements rather than team achievements. I know this is an incorrect way of looking at it as so much weight has been given to team achievements over the years. However, I feel, personally, that it should be chosen in such a way. Whether my criteria is completely incorrect or not, this is simply how I choose my best player of the year: individual performance over a season.

An interesting question you end with. If Messi is the best player year after year, then yes, he should be given the award year after year. Otherwise wouldn't it taint the value of the prize? Because he's already won it a few times is not a good reason not to give it to him again.

OK. I think I've hit my top 10:

1. Messi
2. Ronaldo
3. Pirlo/Iniesta
4. Pirlo/Iniesta
5. Xavi

Sorry... I can't do it! It's too hard... Tbh, I don't think Xavi was the 5th best player in the world this year either... I just couldn't think of somebody else. I shall give a few players who I'd probably put in the top 10 in no particular order.

Casillas, Kompany, Ozil, Ibrahimovic, Xabi Alonso, David Silva, Sergio Aguero, Falcao.

Great reply kizz. That makes good sense.

The Franchise wrote:
Doesnt make sense to me JD.

What Snijeder/whoever was Inter's best player in the treble year the best player in the world then?

Cristiano individually didnt perform better than Messi in any competetion they both entered, thats enough for me.

We talk about the last Classico which Madrid won and Cristiano scored the winning goal. The pass from Ozil was a much greater skill than the finish from Cristiano, but besides that, that didnt win them the league, that was won months before that point.

dani, not sure if you saw the detailed voting of 2010 but it clearly showed that had the old format of Ballon D'or remained, Sneijder would have won it.

You mentioned Ozil which is very valid. What goes against him is that he got beaten and that too quite comprehensively in the Euro 2012 semi final by a supposedly inferior team in spite of having quality players all around him.

Yes that goal didn't win the league but it was the last nail in the coffin and hence it's somewhat significant I suppose.

The Franchise wrote:Also, how come we are saying "this award", is this a Ballon D'or discussion? I thought it was simply, list our top 10 players as of 11/12.

Good question. What happened was that I tried to list players the way I would expect the Fifa Ballon D'or to list them rather than how I would list them. In other words I am trying to predict what will happen rather than saying what I want should happen. That makes the subject somewhat misleading I accept.

Since people saw C.Ronaldo ahead of Messi in my list, naturally it ignited a major debate and the rest of the top ten list then became of less consequence.

billionmillion wrote:maybe i misunderstood your opinion, but facepalm is not so bad thing, its my lovely smile when i disagree with somebody. after i read all your comments i decided it would be better if you put 1.messi/ronaldo instead 1.ronaldo, why did you make this in barca section since you knew that you would not receive positive comments about it and i think you know opinion of all barca fans. also there is ballon dor thread in international football section you saw that majority people rate messi 1st. you knew that you would not get positive comments yet you did it, so you must be ready for any negative comments since you are making something against majority and if its in barca section you are making something against 95%

Sure I expected negative reactions. So after reading your response I can now accept your earlier comments including the face palm.

At the expense of angering many Barca fans I will say that to date I believe Messi's Fifa Ballon D'or award in 2010 was not very well deserved. 2009 and 2011 were unquestionable but not 2010. It should have been Sneijder or Xavi. I wanted Xavi to win but the results proved that had the old format of the Ballon D'or existed Sneijder would have won it and Messi wouldn't have even made the top three. Hence giving him another award in 2012 would be a bit too much in just my humble opinion. If anything 2012 was even less successful for him than 2010 because then we at least won La Liga.

Now I am not saying that C.Ronaldo deserves the award instead. I have just kept him in my list as a filler for now since I am unable to decide for sure. What I essentially want is that it should be more open this time and a player other than these two should win.

Seriously, JD? this doesn't make any sense...
If Cristiano's teams won Euro or UCL... Saying that he won more major trophies than Messi, could have made sense...
But Liga Vs Copa (wining against madrid), SpanishSuper (winning against Madrid), UefaSuper and ClubWorldsCup.

Is even for me... (trophy wise)..

Messi as by far the best individually.. Its not even close.. Cristiano was trying to compete by scoring goals directly created by his teammates...
While, Messi who even scored more goals, big part of them came from individual effort, added to this a lot of assists (by dropping to midfield and act as a playmaker) when teams needs it...

Messi had the best individual season EVER (82 goals, 33 assists in 69 official games)...

In 2012 (Calender Year, so far): 51 goals, 15 assists in 37 official games for Club and Country. [Messi can still play 30+ games in 2012, he has bug chance to beat his personal record, 60 goals in 2010 and Pele's all-time record 75 goals in 1958].

Cristiano was and is no where near Messi's overall performance.. He can just compete when it comes to scoring goals in La Liga (most of his goals created by World Class players around him, Benzema Ozil Di Maria etc..)

1- Messi
.
.
2- Cristiano/Iniesta/Pirlo

Dunno... I actually think maybe Xavi should have won in 2009, or at least finish second.

2010, I think it was very close... Nothing wrong with Messi winning, he was better than Sneijder in my opinion. Xavi and Iniesta were very damn close though.

Just for the record guys... please don't go and abuse +/- vote system... we got rid of negative voting for a reason. That you did this to one of our own makes me ashamed.

And if you want to take into consideration trophies..
Torres and Mata won Euro and UCL.

- Important goals, didn't Torres score 3 goals for Spain (from less Shots and minutes played than Cristiano Ronaldo)???
- Didn't Torres score that goal against Barca at Camp nou??

Torres won more trophies than Cristiano, much much more important ones..
He also scored more important goals...
Does this mean he was better than Cristiano in 2011/12 ??
No, cause individually Cristiano had a better season...

Same implies for Messi and Cristiano, Cristiano won a major trophy (La Liga), but this trophy is not UCL nor Euro.. at the same time Messi did win 4 minor trophies including trophies won against Cristiano/RealMadrid (2) !!

This takes us again to individual performance?
Who was better? Its MESSI again...
Cristiano's game in 2011/12 was just about goals..
While, who even scored more goals than Critsiano (13 more goals, 69 vs 82, both played 69 games)...
Messi was almost every move and every goal scored by Barca, he created chances, passing, dribbling, open spaces to his teammates etc...
33 FU*KEN assists! [even top playmaker, couldn't reach such numbers]

Messi is the most complete player by far (most effective, finisher + playmaker)...

elclasico and head-to-head in2011/12:
Cristiano scored 4 goals in 6 games last season against Barcelona, which is great.. no doubt, did his job.. but, lets look at his overall performance..
did he do anything other than scoring 1 on 1 vs Valdes? after great passing from Ozil and Benzema? added 0 assists..

While, Messi on the other hand, who is always marked by 3 players...
scored just 3 goals in 6 games against Real Madrid last season, but what makes him more complete, if he couldn't score goals, he simple drops to midfield and start creating chances using dribbling, passing, vision etc.. (he assisted 5!!! of Barcelona's goals against Real Madrid in 2011/12)..

@JD

Check these Stats;

1- Gonzalo Higuain: Had the best conversion rate in the top 5 leagues last season (36.7%) of players with 10+ goals.

2- Karim Benzema vs Cristiano Ronaldo Stats at Real Madrid (2011-12) #benzema #cr7 #realmadrid

¤ Stats at Real Madrid 2011-12
- Cristiano: 60 goals, 15 assists in 55 games (4870 minutes).
- Benzema: 32 goals, 15 assists in 52 games (3430 minutes).

¤ Shots per Goal (Liga + UCL):
- Benzema took 142 Shots to scored 28 goals. (Goal every 5 shots).
- Cristiano took 338 to score 56 goals. (Goal every 6 Shots).

notes:
- Cristiano scored 14 of his 60 goals from penalties, Benzema 0 from 32.
- Cristiano played 1440 more minutes than Benzema (its 16 more "90 minutes" games).

Like I said earlier in the thread JD I agree. Messi shouldn't have won the Ballon D'Or in 2010. 2009 and 2011 were all his but Xavi or Sneijder deserved it more that year. 2012 is s similar story, Messi could win it but Pirlo or Iniesta may end up winning it. I still maintain Ibrahimovic should make the top 3, he was marvelous last season and at the euros. Also, as controversial as this may sound people may get tired of Messi winning all the time, just like they are Spain and Barca and vote for someone else in hope of an upset. There is a word for this, not jealously, something else...

Khaled no offense dude, but when people vote for the Ballon D'Or they dont look at stats like header conversion or how many shots it took to score x amount of goals. If they did Huntelaar and Gomez would be first and second every single year.

Jonathan28 wrote:Like I said earlier in the thread JD I agree. Messi shouldn't have won the Ballon D'Or in 2010. 2009 and 2011 were all his but Xavi or Sneijder deserved it more that year. 2012 is s similar story, Messi could win it but Pirlo or Iniesta may end up winning it. I still maintain Ibrahimovic should make the top 3, he was marvelous last season and at the euros. Also, as controversial as this may sound people may get tired of Messi winning all the time, just like they are Spain and Barca and vote for someone else in hope of an upset. There is a word for this, not jealously, something else...

Khaled no offense dude, but when people vote for the Ballon D'Or they dont look at stats like header conversion or how many shots it took to score x amount of goals. If they did Huntelaar and Gomez would be first and second every single year.

I mentioned these stats to prove a point, Benzema had a very close ratio of goals/minutes to cristiano from open play.
Its not about Cristiano, Real Madrid won cause they were more consistent as a team!! Real Madrid won La Liga 2011-12, Cristiano was part of if it.. Ozil Benzema Casillas Alonso played an important role as Cristiano in winning this title... etc..

Ballon d'or is an individual award.
Messi was the best individually, so he should win it. Simple.
Or just give the Ballon d'or to Torres for winning more major trophies, scoring important goals.

Ballon D'Or is meant to be an individual award, but its not, being integral in your team winning a trophy is also taken into consideration. Many people have won the award without being the best individually, and always will do. The most controversial of this being Cannavaro.

1. Messi - clearly the best (best ever?), best in every competition he played
2. Cronaldo - hate to say it, but I think he just edged Iniesta
3. Andres Iniesta - best in Euro's, somewhat lacking in Barca
4. Andrea Pirlo - great Euro's, great at Juventus
5. Iker Casillas - for the first time I was impressed with Casillas, now I see why he is so recognised as the best goalie
6. Xavi - great final in Euro's, but slightly less stellar than last year overall

this is as far I can differentiate players, from here on it comes mixed mess of players for me.

Jiopsi you forgot Ibrahimovic, he should be in the top 3

Jonathan28 wrote:Jiopsi you forgot Ibrahimovic, he should be in the top 3

Clearly not.

Even Madrid fans thinks that Messi should win it...

Final Results:
(marca.com)

1- Messi (42.3%)
2- Casillas (37.8%)
3- Cristiano (10.3 %)
4- Iniesta (5.4 %)
5- Xavi (2.4)
6- Pirlo (0.9)
7- Drogba (0.9)

115,697 votes

http://www.marca.com/2012/07/06/futbol/1341570911.html

1-Messi
2-Ronaldo
3-Iniesta/Pirlo
4-Pirlo/Iniesta
5-Ozil
6-Xavi
7-Casillas
8-Drogba
9-Mata
10-Falcao

Khaled wrote:Final Results:
(marca.com)

1- Messi (42.3%)
2- Casillas (37.8%)
3- Cristiano (10.3 %)
4- Iniesta (5.4 %)
5- Xavi (2.4)
6- Pirlo (0.9)
7- Drogba (0.9)

115,697 votes

http://www.marca.com/2012/07/06/futbol/1341570911.html

That's pretty interesting. I've a dyed-in-the-wool Madrid fan friend, who after the Euro's, for the first time ever said Messi should win it. I don't know what changed.

Giggity welcome to our my world. Can't even have a proper discussion when it comes to Messi. Now I finally realise after my 2 year absence why the forum hates Barca and its fans. Not to mention all these useless gifs and videos which contribute absolutely nothing. Not only do the gifs slow down the forum, but somehow, if you spam a thread with them instead of partaking in actual debate, you are deems to have "owned" someone.

Whilst i'm on this topic, using stats in place of actual disscusion and have no relvance whatsoever is just as bad, and should be ignored.

Khaled wrote:Seriously, JD? this doesn't make any sense...
If Cristiano's teams won Euro or UCL... Saying that he won more major trophies than Messi, could have made sense...
But Liga Vs Copa (wining against madrid), SpanishSuper (winning against Madrid), UefaSuper and ClubWorldsCup.

Is even for me... (trophy wise)..

No even then the league title is bigger than all four of those combined I would say. As for individual season no debating anything you said but I have given my views about what I consider a top class season in a post made in the international football section.

BarcaKizz wrote:Dunno... I actually think maybe Xavi should have won in 2009, or at least finish second.

No doubt Xavi should have finished at least second in 2009. I have to go back to my point about the world's obsession with forwards and goal scorers.

Khaled wrote:And if you want to take into consideration trophies..
Torres and Mata won Euro and UCL.

- Important goals, didn't Torres score 3 goals for Spain (from less Shots and minutes played than Cristiano Ronaldo)???
- Didn't Torres score that goal against Barca at Camp nou??

Torres won more trophies than Cristiano, much much more important ones..
He also scored more important goals...
Does this mean he was better than Cristiano in 2011/12 ??
No, cause individually Cristiano had a better season....

See it is about winning trophies but along with that what matters is how much you contributed to the wins. Torres and Mata contributed very little to the trophies won. Scoring an important goal or giving an important assist matters but you also need to be a key player of the team who has played as a starter right through. A squad player coming off the bench and happening to have a big role in a key moment will not get best player award. Contributing in the key moments matters but you need to be decisive as a whole. The way you played in several crucial matches was key to your team winning the big trophies. That in a nutshell for me is the criteria. Hope that explains it better.

So going by my criteria the two major candidates are Iniesta and Pirlo. However Iniesta did not have a great season. If he had a season as good as his 2010-11 season then for me no question he should have won the award. Pirlo did not play in the UCL which could have been excused had he not lost the Euro final and what's more been so comprehensively beaten. If Pirlo had won the final then for me he definitively should have won the award. That is what has made it so tight and interesting that it's kind of impossible to choose the right winner. Casillas comes in because he is one of the few who won both Euro and league, by and large performed very well right through but being the goal keeper and not being the MVP of any of his teams as such unlike Cannavaro in 2006, even his case remains very much debatable.

Khaled wrote:@JD

Check these Stats;

1- Gonzalo Higuain: Had the best conversion rate in the top 5 leagues last season (36.7%) of players with 10+ goals.

2- Karim Benzema vs Cristiano Ronaldo Stats at Real Madrid (2011-12) #benzema #cr7 #realmadrid

¤ Stats at Real Madrid 2011-12
- Cristiano: 60 goals, 15 assists in 55 games (4870 minutes).
- Benzema: 32 goals, 15 assists in 52 games (3430 minutes).

¤ Shots per Goal (Liga + UCL):
- Benzema took 142 Shots to scored 28 goals. (Goal every 5 shots).
- Cristiano took 338 to score 56 goals. (Goal every 6 Shots).

notes:
- Cristiano scored 14 of his 60 goals from penalties, Benzema 0 from 32.
- Cristiano played 1440 more minutes than Benzema (its 16 more "90 minutes" games).

Arguing with the stats guru on stats is like arguing on Physics with Newton. Hence I will pass.

Jonathan28 wrote:Like I said earlier in the thread JD I agree. Messi shouldn't have won the Ballon D'Or in 2010. 2009 and 2011 were all his but Xavi or Sneijder deserved it more that year. 2012 is s similar story, Messi could win it but Pirlo or Iniesta may end up winning it. I still maintain Ibrahimovic should make the top 3, he was marvelous last season and at the euros. Also, as controversial as this may sound people may get tired of Messi winning all the time, just like they are Spain and Barca and vote for someone else in hope of an upset. There is a word for this, not jealously, something else...

Khaled no offense dude, but when people vote for the Ballon D'Or they dont look at stats like header conversion or how many shots it took to score x amount of goals. If they did Huntelaar and Gomez would be first and second every single year.

Very nice post jonathan. By and large I agree with what you say.