Let's List Our Own Top Ten Of 2011-12

jiopsi is better poster than few boring posters here. without jiopsi barca section would have no GIFs and stats. also he is a fighter in general section who always defends barcelona and owns people with his weapon (gifs+stats). overall useful poster and needs some respect

billionmillion wrote:jiopsi is better poster than few boring posters here. without jiopsi barca section would have no GIFs and stats. also he is a fighter in general section who always defends barcelona and owns people with his weapon (gifs+stats). overall useful poster and needs some respect

Does he defend Barca? Really? I mean, I'm not going to continue on with this conversation since it's beside the point of the thread and pretty much derailing, but I've never seen him defend anything 'Barca' related unless it's Messi. As for owning people, that's laughable, and he deserves zero respect.

Stats are useless and the gifs are nice but nothing more. I'd like to argue my case more but that would be derailing, and useless, I will not continue this conversation.

Some atrocious posts in here lol

Football is not so black and white like people make it seem. Just because Ronaldo won la liga while beating barca at home does not necessarily mean he had a better season than Messi. Football does not work like that - it's not so simple and certainly not so black and white. But some ppl act like team results/trophies are the only way to judge a player's performances throughout the season.
Those ppl will usually downplay good performances which didn't result in victories because "winning is all that matters", no ifs, and, or buts. "If you didn't win the game, you didn't do well, and I won't give you credit for the performance"
They're keyboard warriors so to speak, and they conveniently ignore good performances cause they judge things based on results only. It's a good mentality to have in the business world, but in football it doesn't make sense.

The way I look at it is how each individual played HIS specific role. On top of that, I also look at what he did in addition to his specific role. Did he go that extra mile to help the team? Did he take on someone else's role when they were underperforming? Did he inspire confidence in his teammates? etc...

Messi did all these things, and he even performed well in the "showdown" clasico where Madrid stole the league. So you can't say Ronaldo was better than him in that match. It was simply a solid performance from Madrid + a weak performance from barca midfielders. That's where the difference lies - not between CR's and Messi's performances.

I think ppl expect too much from Messi sometimes because he's won games by himself in the past, and ppl expect him to replicate those performances every time. When he doesn't, they say he performed poorly, which is very rare.

The chelsea match was one of those rare moments but it certainly doesn't negate the fact that he was the CL's top scorer for the 4th season in a row! And It's not like CR7 won the champions league this year...

All in all, if you watched all the madrid and barca games this season you will understand that Ronaldo had a stellar season but Messi was on another level. He shouldered all the goalscoring burden and was playmaking as well. Ronaldo could never do these things and that's one of the reasons why messi is far better and had better overall play this season, and every season, and that's why Messi had a better season than Cr7 individually.

CBarca wrote:

billionmillion wrote:jiopsi is better poster than few boring posters here. without jiopsi barca section would have no GIFs and stats. also he is a fighter in general section who always defends barcelona and owns people with his weapon (gifs+stats). overall useful poster and needs some respect

Does he defend Barca? Really? I mean, I'm not going to continue on with this conversation since it's beside the point of the thread and pretty much derailing, but I've never seen him defend anything 'Barca' related unless it's Messi. As for owning people, that's laughable, and he deserves zero respect.

Stats are useless and the gifs are nice but nothing more. I'd like to argue my case more but that would be derailing, and useless, I will not continue this conversation.

He still defends barca more than you i'm sure. do you even post in general section? i assure you 80% of the forum users dont read all posts but they read jopsi's posts
he doesnt post about barcelona? this is his post from yesterday in barca 2012-13 thread, what he posted was more clear and defined meaning of the thread



its more easy to see and you dont waste your time to read someone's biased analyses. just facts, gifs and stats. jiopsi

_LMG_10_ wrote:
Messi did all these things, and he even performed well in the "showdown" clasico where Madrid stole the league

actually there is no match that CR performed better than messi. i talk about performance not goals

khedira scores a goal nobody gives a sh.it, then few minutes later ronaldo scores people say he won the leauge

I have no hate for Messi, just for those who defend him blindly. We don't want to reach the stage where critisizing Messi is seen as a crime against humanity and you are not a "true" fan(wtf does this even mean?) if you do. Just looking at this thread, there are already a few members who carry this agenda, which I reject.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, blind following. Ronaldo performed better then Messi in that Copa 2nd leg, from the 1st minute of that game it was all Madrid, if Higuain could finish they would have beem 3-0 up within the first 10 minutes. Madrid and Ronaldo were majestic that night, first time I have ever genuinly been afraid of them.

And that Ronaldo goal did win Madrid the league, Sanchez equalised, then Ronaldo scored remember? That was the winning goal, so people who make that claim are correct.

Albiceleste wrote:1. Messi
2. Ronaldo
3. Iniesta
4. Pirlo
5. Xavi
6. Kompany
7. Casillas
8. Ramos
9. Ozil
10. Falcao

O_O exactly what i was going to say..

@billionmillion.. just disgraceful, you are seriously only a messi fan.

Jonathan28 wrote:I have no hate for Messi, just for those who defend him blindly.

this is coming from ronaldo/madrid fan and he has ronaldo picture in his avatar

Giggity5313 wrote:

Albiceleste wrote:1. Messi
2. Ronaldo
3. Iniesta
4. Pirlo
5. Xavi
6. Kompany
7. Casillas
8. Ramos
9. Ozil
10. Falcao

O_O exactly what i was going to say..

so jonathan tell me giggity is also a blind messi fanboy?

Jonathan28 wrote:I have no hate for Messi, just for those who defend him blindly. We don't want to reach the stage where critisizing Messi is seen as a crime against humanity and you are not a "true" fan(wtf does this even mean?) if you do. Just looking at this thread, there are already a few members who carry this agenda, which I reject.

All I've seen you do is undermine Messi, or can you point to the part that you haven't? This thread is actually great example of it. You are critizising him without merit, and your explanations are truely pathetic.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, blind following. Ronaldo performed better then Messi in that Copa 2nd leg, from the 1st minute of that game it was all Madrid, if Higuain could finish they would have beem 3-0 up within the first 10 minutes. Madrid and Ronaldo were majestic that night, first time I have ever genuinly been afraid of them.

Performed like how? I'm beginning to be annoyed by your way of twisting things to sound like Messi didn't do squat. It was Messi who gave Barca the lead,



And it was Messi who got us the freekick, which then lead to the second goal, and that actually should have been the second yellow of Diarra's:



So actually without scoring, he had the biggest influence to our goals.

And that Ronaldo goal did win Madrid the league, Sanchez equalised, then Ronaldo scored remember? That was the winning goal, so people who make that claim are correct.

How it won the league? They would have won the league even if Barca would have won the match, they had 4 point lead. And Sanchez only equalized because Messi carried the ball from midfield, dribbling two players and attracting three defenders onto himself.

rating messi above ronaldo for ballon dor is not defending him blindly as 80% of the forum and 99% of the barca section does it.

Actually arguing with Jonathan is waste of time.you say ronaldo performed better than messi then focusing on explaining how, you go and say madrid all were over barcelona never seen them so dangerous. if higuain could finish they would win. they would score 3 goals in 10 minutes. and where is ronaldo? you talked about madrid, their chances and higuain more than ronaldo. you need to grow up a little and learn how to make arguments, if you throw some shi.t try and explain it or focus on it, dont change your words and start to talk about other sh.it

ronaldo was the best player, did you see how ozil hit the cross bar?
ronaldo performed great, did you see how benzema dribbled pique?

what it has to do with ronaldo? you just prove that without ronaldo they play great and create ton of chances and you can not even mention ronaldo's name in one of these dangerous moments

Jonathan28 wrote:I have no hate for Messi,

This is exactly what I'm talking about, blind following. Ronaldo performed better then Messi in that Copa 2nd leg

do you talk about this match?

this is CR's performance


didnt do any useful thing whole match until that goal, no dribbling, no creating chances, no good passes, wasted shoots

and this is messi's performance


this actually was not messi's great performance but do you see how much messi is important how he opens spaces how he helps team mates, and he involved in both of barcelona's goals one assist and one free kick that resulted with goal

now we all can agree that you are blindly bashing messi here? whoever watches these 2 videos can see who played better

The Franchise wrote:I thought you was just kidding around JD.

What the hell?

Cristiano isnt better than Iniesta, forget about Messi lol

Those reasons you named are TEAM oriented, not individual.

Yes dani they are team oriented. After all it's a team game. So my way every year is to first identify which teams excelled. Then list down those players who were key to the excellence of those teams. Once such a list has been drawn I try to compare between the players on several criteria but most importantly who made the difference in key moments. This last part can be especially tough. This year it's really interesting. All I am doing is trying to think logically, if at all that is possible.

BarcaKizz wrote:Didn't expect this from you JD. Very interesting. First I'll look at your points. Then I'll try to come up with a 10.

messixaviesta wrote:

1. C.Ronaldo won La Liga while Messi lost it. He even scored what can be called the goal that won the league title.

Important... but not important enough to overlook the fact that Messi's season was individually better. Like Dani said, this is an individual award. At the end of the day Cristina won La Liga, but failed in other tournaments. Messi won quite a few trophies himself actually, don't forget that. Neither of them won the Euro or Champions League which is usually given so much weight.

2. Both didn't reach UCL final but while Real was edged out on penalties, Barca lost on a 3-2 aggregate. More importantly the crucial second leg decider against Chelsea was said to be Messi's career worst performance.

This is probably your worst argument. Messi was top scorer and had a bette UCL campaign than Cristiano anyway. He had one very bad game, but CR7 was also completely invisible against Bayern.

3. Messi obviously didn't play the Euro for no fault of his. So in such a scenario depending on how C.Ronaldo performed at the Euro he could have gone significantly ahead or behind Messi in the pecking order. If he had won the Euro and been MVP, he would be clearly ahead of Messi now. If he had crashed out in the group stage with big match flop performances he would probably be well below Messi. What happened was something in-between and perhaps we can say on the higher side. Portugal reached the semi finals and took Spain all the way up to penalties. Although C.Ronaldo didn't play great in that match, he did have two MOM performances leading to it and ultimately people will see it more as an over-achievement on his team's and his part rather than a disappointment.

CR probably had the most overhyped Euro of all. He had 3 bad games, one of them was utterly atrocious. His 'incredible game' came against a Dutch team which had to win big, and their defence was inexistent. Finally he wasn't even that great against the Czechs... It underlines the fact that he is nowhere near capable of carrying his team individually like Messi is.

Finally, well besides those points... just as said. To me its just so clear that Messi is better... I don't even see the need to argue it. Is Iniesta a better player? Maybe, but I guess CR had a better season.

Actually... I'll think about the top 10 and come back to you.

Very interesting points kizz.

1. Messi did win four others trophies but none of them can be called major trophies. The significant tournament C.Ronaldo failed in is UCL. Actually since neither succeeded there it makes it all the more interesting. Yes if either had won the UCL or C.Ronaldo had won the Euro it would probably be an open and shut case which it is far from now.

2. Yes Messi had a better overall UCL campaign which is a good point. Also true that C.Ronaldo was eclipsed by Ribery in the first leg and Robben in the second. He did score a goal though in the second leg and gave an assist in the first leg. So without playing that well he still had significant moments.

3. This is quite true. Portugal were very erroneously called a one man show when it was actually quite a complete team with several players doing very well. If there was a one man team it was Italy. The points you make about the Dutch game are top notch and I am glad that someone other than me has also noticed that. However Messi will also be credited with carrying a team individually only after he excels at a major tournament with Argentina which hasn't happened so far. However C.Ronaldo scoring three goals at Euro 2012 and winning two MOMs and his team taking Spain all the way to penalties in the semi final I think will count in his favor even though I am not sure it should.

Overall I am trying to predict a top ten rather than saying who I think deserves to be in the top ten. If it was a matter of deserving the way I see it I would probably take both Messi and C.Ronaldo out and make the top three out of Iniesta, Pirlo and Casillas. If Italy had won Euro 2012 I would have given the award to Pirlo no question.

I will end by asking you all a question. There is no doubt that Messi is by far the best player today and we will likely not see another as good as him in the next ten years or so. However does that mean we keep giving him the award year after year? No player no matter how good was given such a treatment in football history.

billionmillion wrote:messixaviesta

now la liga defines ballon dor. messi destroyed madrid 5 times out of 6 matches, ronaldo did once. why all count that 1 match i dont know. also its proven fact that la liga won by whole madrid team, benzema has 32 goals 20 assists, higuain 25 goals, ozil has 25 assists. in barca after messi its fabregas with 15 goals. messi's season was best individual season by any player ever. he also won 4 titles that in 2 of them R.Madrid participated and lost to messi

Hope I have answered your question with my replies to dani's and kizz's posts.

P.S. - The face palm is not appreciated especially since we have known each other for some time and I don't think I have ever given you a reply of that kind. We can once in a while have a difference of opinion. Besides in this case I am definitely not very sure of my opinion but am just trying to think and collect ideas on what can possibly happen.

_LMG_10_ wrote:But some ppl act like team results/trophies are the only way to judge a player's performances throughout the season.

Perhaps they shouldn't be but look at football history and you will find they are usually the deciding factors especially for the Ballon D'or award.

I respect you and I understand your logic JD through those replies though Ballon is individual performance and Messi showed that throughout this whole season. Good replies though!

paxtonpale wrote:I respect you and I understand your logic JD through those replies though Ballon is individual performance and Messi showed that throughout this whole season. Good replies though!

Thanks man. The respect is mutual.

Ok let's try to address one question which I think could give us a better perspective.

How many matches did Messi win last season off his own ability against top class opposition? Let's list down all those matches. Also let us point out how crucial each of those matches were. Then with that list made perhaps we can better debate the merits and demerits of his season and where he should place.

messixaviesta wrote:Ok let's try to address one question which I think could give us a better perspective.

How many matches did Messi win last season off his own ability against top class opposition? Let's list down all those matches. Also let us point out how crucial each of those matches were. Then with that list made perhaps we can better debate the merits and demerits of his season and where he should place.

Can I also ask the same question but Ronaldo instead...

Thanks for the reply JD.

I think at the heart of our disagreement is probably the fact that I've always seen the award as based on individual achievements rather than team achievements. I know this is an incorrect way of looking at it as so much weight has been given to team achievements over the years. However, I feel, personally, that it should be chosen in such a way. Whether my criteria is completely incorrect or not, this is simply how I choose my best player of the year: individual performance over a season.

An interesting question you end with. If Messi is the best player year after year, then yes, he should be given the award year after year. Otherwise wouldn't it taint the value of the prize? Because he's already won it a few times is not a good reason not to give it to him again.

OK. I think I've hit my top 10:

1. Messi
2. Ronaldo
3. Pirlo/Iniesta
4. Pirlo/Iniesta
5. Xavi

Sorry... I can't do it! It's too hard... Tbh, I don't think Xavi was the 5th best player in the world this year either... I just couldn't think of somebody else. I shall give a few players who I'd probably put in the top 10 in no particular order.

Casillas, Kompany, Ozil, Ibrahimovic, Xabi Alonso, David Silva, Sergio Aguero, Falcao.

messixaviesta wrote:

The Franchise wrote:I thought you was just kidding around JD.

What the hell?

Cristiano isnt better than Iniesta, forget about Messi lol

Those reasons you named are TEAM oriented, not individual.

Yes dani they are team oriented. After all it's a team game. So my way every year is to first identify which teams excelled. Then list down those players who were key to the excellence of those teams. Once such a list has been drawn I try to compare between the players on several criteria but most importantly who made the difference in key moments. This last part can be especially tough. This year it's really interesting. All I am doing is trying to think logically, if at all that is possible.

Doesnt make sense to me JD.

What Snijeder/whoever was Inter's best player in the treble year the best player in the world then?

Cristiano individually didnt perform better than Messi in any competetion they both entered, thats enough for me.

We talk about the last Classico which Madrid won and Cristiano scored the winning goal. The pass from Ozil was a much greater skill than the finish from Cristiano, but besides that, that didnt win them the league, that was won months before that point.

Also, how come we are saying "this award", is this a Ballon D'or discussion? I thought it was simply, list our top 10 players as of 11/12.

messixaviesta wrote:

billionmillion wrote:messixaviesta

now la liga defines ballon dor. messi destroyed madrid 5 times out of 6 matches, ronaldo did once. why all count that 1 match i dont know. also its proven fact that la liga won by whole madrid team, benzema has 32 goals 20 assists, higuain 25 goals, ozil has 25 assists. in barca after messi its fabregas with 15 goals. messi's season was best individual season by any player ever. he also won 4 titles that in 2 of them R.Madrid participated and lost to messi

Hope I have answered your question with my replies to dani's and kizz's posts.

P.S. - The face palm is not appreciated especially since we have known each other for some time and I don't think I have ever given you a reply of that kind. We can once in a while have a difference of opinion. Besides in this case I am definitely not very sure of my opinion but am just trying to think and collect ideas on what can possibly happen.

maybe i misunderstood your opinion, but facepalm is not so bad thing, its my lovely smile when i disagree with somebody. after i read all your comments i decided it would be better if you put 1.messi/ronaldo instead 1.ronaldo, why did you make this in barca section since you knew that you would not receive positive comments about it and i think you know opinion of all barca fans. also there is ballon dor thread in international football section you saw that majority people rate messi 1st. you knew that you would not get positive comments yet you did it, so you must be ready for any negative comments since you are making something against majority and if its in barca section you are making something against 95%

Messi also has trophies, if not messi R.Madrid would have 3 trophies this season: la liga+copa del rey+super cup

its difficult for me to rate ronaldo because when i watch madrid matches i see how useless he is most of time until somebody creates a chance for him, thats why for me madrid attack is shared between ozil, benzema, di maria and him. why he gets all credit i dont know

messi almost was whole attack of barcelona. its difficult for me to remember any barca goal without messi's involvement. directly participated in 102 barca goals (73 goals+29 assists). when they need to build attack they look for messi they pass the ball to messi. he is the most needed player in attack. in madrid they dont pass it to ronaldo, they will pass it to di maria more than CR. he is just there to score goals, so messi is way more important for an attack than ronaldo and giving all credit to ronaldo for la liga is wrong as they had best defense, best coach and great attacking players.but a player that had many "sell ronaldo" threads, and many "we play better without ronaldo" comments during last season became a hero for clasico goal

Ronaldo?
I'm sorry but I think he is the greatest poser ever in football (D. Beckham is only second to him). Ronaldo is very fast, no more. He is quite ineffective with his tricks and passes. No, no way he's anything to compare with Messi. In 20 years people will only talk about Messi and forget Ronaldo for sure (except his crazy fans maybe).

paxtonpale wrote:
Can I also ask the same question but Ronaldo instead...

Sure but perhaps we should ask someone from Madrid to give the answer to that question so that we can have greater fairness.

BarcaKizz wrote:Thanks for the reply JD.

I think at the heart of our disagreement is probably the fact that I've always seen the award as based on individual achievements rather than team achievements. I know this is an incorrect way of looking at it as so much weight has been given to team achievements over the years. However, I feel, personally, that it should be chosen in such a way. Whether my criteria is completely incorrect or not, this is simply how I choose my best player of the year: individual performance over a season.

An interesting question you end with. If Messi is the best player year after year, then yes, he should be given the award year after year. Otherwise wouldn't it taint the value of the prize? Because he's already won it a few times is not a good reason not to give it to him again.

OK. I think I've hit my top 10:

1. Messi
2. Ronaldo
3. Pirlo/Iniesta
4. Pirlo/Iniesta
5. Xavi

Sorry... I can't do it! It's too hard... Tbh, I don't think Xavi was the 5th best player in the world this year either... I just couldn't think of somebody else. I shall give a few players who I'd probably put in the top 10 in no particular order.

Casillas, Kompany, Ozil, Ibrahimovic, Xabi Alonso, David Silva, Sergio Aguero, Falcao.

Great reply kizz. That makes good sense.