Let's List Our Own Top Ten Of 2011-12

Jonathan28 wrote:Like I said earlier in the thread JD I agree. Messi shouldn't have won the Ballon D'Or in 2010. 2009 and 2011 were all his but Xavi or Sneijder deserved it more that year. 2012 is s similar story, Messi could win it but Pirlo or Iniesta may end up winning it. I still maintain Ibrahimovic should make the top 3, he was marvelous last season and at the euros. Also, as controversial as this may sound people may get tired of Messi winning all the time, just like they are Spain and Barca and vote for someone else in hope of an upset. There is a word for this, not jealously, something else...

Khaled no offense dude, but when people vote for the Ballon D'Or they dont look at stats like header conversion or how many shots it took to score x amount of goals. If they did Huntelaar and Gomez would be first and second every single year.

Very nice post jonathan. By and large I agree with what you say.

jiopsi wrote:1. Messi - clearly the best (best ever?), best in every competition he played
2. Cronaldo - hate to say it, but I think he just edged Iniesta
3. Andres Iniesta - best in Euro's, somewhat lacking in Barca
4. Andrea Pirlo - great Euro's, great at Juventus
5. Iker Casillas - for the first time I was impressed with Casillas, now I see why he is so recognised as the best goalie
6. Xavi - great final in Euro's, but slightly less stellar than last year overall

this is as far I can differentiate players, from here on it comes mixed mess of players for me.

Excellent stuff. I guess we can safely say it's between these six. One or two others may have an outside chance of making the top three but it's very likely that three of these players will be on the podium.

Khaled wrote:Final Results:
(marca.com)

1- Messi (42.3%)
2- Casillas (37.8%)
3- Cristiano (10.3 %)
4- Iniesta (5.4 %)
5- Xavi (2.4)
6- Pirlo (0.9)
7- Drogba (0.9)

115,697 votes

http://www.marca.com/2012/07/06/futbol/1341570911.html

Seriously Madrid fans like C.Ronaldo so less.

vivabarca38 wrote:1-Messi
2-Ronaldo
3-Iniesta/Pirlo
4-Pirlo/Iniesta
5-Ozil
6-Xavi
7-Casillas
8-Drogba
9-Mata
10-Falcao

Mata in top 10? Why? I can think of so many others more deserving.

Giggity5313 wrote:Playmakers do not really get many assists, unless they are advanced playmakers such as ozil (which is a bit rare nowadays) Pirlo, xavi, iniesta, modric.. all of those don't have many assists.

Very good point. Playmaking is about so much more than assisting. Someone told me even Zidane wasn't that high on assists in his career.

messixaviesta wrote:

The Franchise wrote:Also, how come we are saying "this award", is this a Ballon D'or discussion? I thought it was simply, list our top 10 players as of 11/12.

Good question. What happened was that I tried to list players the way I would expect the Fifa Ballon D'or to list them rather than how I would list them. In other words I am trying to predict what will happen rather than saying what I want should happen. That makes the subject somewhat misleading I accept.

Since people saw C.Ronaldo ahead of Messi in my list, naturally it ignited a major debate and the rest of the top ten list then became of less consequence.

I see, I misunderstood. My bad.

Then I dont really have a comment to make, I find the award a farce as I said many times and arent very intrested in that sort of debate.

But fair enough.

Giggity5313 wrote:Just a question guys, why arent you even listing your top 10, and instead sucking on messis dick? not to be blunt, but come ON..

1. Khaled I will have to disagree on one point. Playmakers do not really get many assists, unless they are advanced playmakers such as ozil (which is a bit rare nowadays) Pirlo, xavi, iniesta, modric.. all of those don't have many assists.

Well obviously because its the biggest issue, the winner. Doesnt take rocket science to figure out that is the point which is going to be discussed most.

The Franchise wrote:
I see, I misunderstood. My bad.

Then I dont really have a comment to make, I find the award a farce as I said many times and arent very intrested in that sort of debate.

But fair enough.

Thanks dani. Never mind. If possible please list your top ten for the season.

messixaviesta wrote:Ok let's try to address one question which I think could give us a better perspective.

How many matches did Messi win last season off his own ability against top class opposition? Let's list down all those matches. Also let us point out how crucial each of those matches were. Then with that list made perhaps we can better debate the merits and demerits of his season and where he should place.

Just to help give another perspective on your question:



EPA = Expected points added.

Although this is could be a bit inaccurate since it's counting previous seasons, according to this graph Ronaldo's goals hold more importance than Messi's.

So I kind of just made this up right now in 5 minutes, so it could change, but this is probably my top 10.

1. Lionel Messi
2. Cristiano Ronaldo
3. Andres Iniesta
4. Iker Casillas
5. Andrea Pirlo
6. Xavi
7. Mesut Ozil
8. Pepe
9. Ibrahimovic
10. Xabi Alonso

I do have one thing I don't like about mine, and that is Iniesta and Xavi being so far apart. Something that might be more fair is to have Iniesta and Casillas swap. Not sure how I feel about that though.

7amood11 wrote:

messixaviesta wrote:Ok let's try to address one question which I think could give us a better perspective.

How many matches did Messi win last season off his own ability against top class opposition? Let's list down all those matches. Also let us point out how crucial each of those matches were. Then with that list made perhaps we can better debate the merits and demerits of his season and where he should place.

Just to help give another perspective on your question:



EPA = Expected points added.

Although this is could be a bit inaccurate since it's counting previous seasons, according to this graph Ronaldo's goals hold more importance than Messi's.

Add assists to equation and Messi skips past Cronaldo.

Importance of stats:

Here is La Liga 11-12 without Messi's and Cronaldo's goals, and assists:



http://king-football.com/bb/?p=431

Messi got points for the team in 15 games, 35 overall.
Cronaldo got points for the team in 11 games, 25 overall.

messixaviesta wrote:Ok let's try to address one question which I think could give us a better perspective.

How many matches did Messi win last season off his own ability against top class opposition? Let's list down all those matches. Also let us point out how crucial each of those matches were. Then with that list made perhaps we can better debate the merits and demerits of his season and where he should place.

I'll limit the teams in top5 in leagues plus Chelsea and Santos, and minus Pilzen and BATE.

Real Madrid 3+5@6
Valencia 4+3@4
Malaga 6+0@2
Atletico Madrid 4+1@2
Milan 3+3@4
Leverkusen 6+1@2
Chelsea 0+1@2
Porto 1+1@1
Santos 2+0@1

Overall 29+15@24 against top opposition, 1.83 G+A per game.
Overall 73+35@60 against everyone, 1.80 G+A per game.

Nobody came even close to these numbers,

and Messi was actually better against better teams, than the lesser teams.

jiopsi wrote:

messixaviesta wrote:Ok let's try to address one question which I think could give us a better perspective.

How many matches did Messi win last season off his own ability against top class opposition? Let's list down all those matches. Also let us point out how crucial each of those matches were. Then with that list made perhaps we can better debate the merits and demerits of his season and where he should place.

I'll limit the teams in top5 in leagues plus Chelsea and Santos, and minus Pilzen and BATE.

Messi

Real Madrid 3+5@6
Valencia 4+3@4
Malaga 6+0@2
Atletico Madrid 4+1@2
Milan 3+3@4
Leverkusen 6+1@2
Chelsea 0+1@2
Porto 1+1@1
Santos 2+0@1

Overall 29+15@24 against top opposition, 1.83 G+A per game.
Overall 73+35@60 against everyone, 1.80 G+A per game.

Nobody came even close to these numbers,

and Messi was actually better against better teams, than the lesser teams.

Compared to Cronaldo

Barcelona 4+0@6
Valencia 1+0@2
Malaga 3+1@4
Atletico Madrid 5+2@2
Lyon 2+1@2
Ajax 1+1@1
Dynamo 0+0@1
ZSKA 3+0@2
Bayern Munich 2+1@2

Overall 21+6@22 against top opposition, 1.23 G+A per game.
Overall 60+15@55 against everyone, 1.36 G+A per game.

Now there is no doubt who performed better against big teams. again jiopsi

and that table 7mood posted is old and doesnt show any assists plus no stats from 2011-12 season which messi had 73 goals 29 assists

CBarca Ozil should be higher up I feel. Germany's best player at the Euros one of Madrids best players last season, he had a better season then Pirlo and Xavi I feel.

Excluding Madrid players other than Ronaldo, based on individual performance and not team succcess.

1.Messi
2.Ronaldo
3.Pirlo
4.Ibrahimovic
5.Busquets
6.Iniesta
7.Xavi
8.Van Persie
9.Ribery
10.Kompany.

Just plain thought Busquets was better than Xavi and Iniesta over the course of the season , despite being outshined in some bigger games.

Some of the guys on my list won nothing but played at a higher level than their counterparts.

This is not my Balon D Or list though, there would be changes in order because I do factor in team accomplishments.

11. Mascherano

Best 10 players in the world? I am not sure its even possible for me.

How does one compare say Xavi to Cristiano?

As much as I say Iniesta is better than Cristiano, how do you even begin to compare them.

I know Messi is number 1 and its not very close at all.

I would prefer to have Xavi or Iniesta than Cristiano, but I wouldnt have anyone else over him.

Ibrahimovic is probably just below.

Then comes a group of Ozil, Ribery, Dani Alves, Sergio Busquets, Aguero, maybe Falcao, maybe Hulk, a bigger maybe Neymar, Van Persie, David Silva, Benzema, maybe Rooney, Schweinsteiger and possibly a couple guys I am forgetting who are on similar levels and you could probably debate either way really.

I want to see how Pirlo does playing more than 1 game a week before I jump on the bandwagon. But if he is really back, then I am willing to say he is probably a better player than anyone in the bigger group below Ibra.

I wont even bother counting Centerbacks, its an impossible task. They should all probably be grouped together, but in todays game they are the only oneswho have the least impact on goalscoring, constructing play/possession and so on.

Even more so goalies.


And a final point, I am puzzled by the inclusion of Xabi Alonso in anyones top 10 list.

I would have Ozil over Cristiano.
1- He was more important to Real Madrid than Cristiano this season.
2- Was germany's best player in Euro 2012 (2 MOM, deserved).. While, Cristiano had just was one very good game against Holland (although he scored 2 goals from 12 SHOTS// euro record), 3 average games and one good game vs Czech.

Ozil assisted 31 goals this season (24 for Real Madrid, 7 for Germany), 2nd in Europe after Messi (33).
Its funny that some cristiano fanboys, speak about his goals vs Barca at Camp Nou as the goals who made the difference... In both goals, Ozil made the hard work, by putting Cristiano 1 on 1 vs Valdes... (all credit went to Cristiano, which is not fair).

note: Messi's assist to Pedro vs realmadrid (Copa/campnou) or his assist to Abidal (copa/bernabeu) or the assist to Alexis (liga/bernabeu) or the assist to Iniesta (SuperCup/campnou) ... were 10 times better than Cristiano's goals vs Barca (Quality).

billionmillion wrote:Now there is no doubt who performed better against big teams. again jiopsi

and that table 7mood posted is old and doesnt show any assists plus no stats from 2011-12 season which messi had 73 goals 29 assists

Actually, that graph was published on 16th of April 2012, so it took most of the 11-12 season into account.

Not trying to argue who's better, just found an interesting graph and posted to see what you thought.

7amood11 wrote:

billionmillion wrote:Now there is no doubt who performed better against big teams. again jiopsi

and that table 7mood posted is old and doesnt show any assists plus no stats from 2011-12 season which messi had 73 goals 29 assists

Actually, that graph was published on 16th of April 2012, so it took most of the 11-12 season into account.

Not trying to argue who's better, just found an interesting graph and posted to see what you thought.

Like jiopsi said.. add all 2011-12 goals + ASSISTS (which makes Messi more complete player) and you will have the difference..
Another point, this graph takes into consideration JUST goals..
(Cristiano can compete with Messi, when it comes to scoring goals in La Liga / still behind him).
But, Messi beats him in everything else.. (Assists, Dribbling, vision, passing, Teamwork, Overall performance, influence on his team etc..)

Khaled wrote:I would have Ozil over Cristiano.
1- He was more important to Real Madrid than Cristiano this season.
2- Was germany's best player in Euro 2012 (2 MOM, deserved).. While, Cristiano had just was one very good game against Holland (although he scored 2 goals from 12 SHOTS// euro record), 3 average games and one good game vs Czech.

Ozil assisted 31 goals this season (24 for Real Madrid, 7 for Germany), 2nd in Europe after Messi (33).
Its funny that some cristiano fanboys, speak about his goals vs Barca at Camp Nou as the goals who made the difference... In both goals, Ozil made the hard work, by putting Cristiano 1 on 1 vs Valdes... (all credit went to Cristiano, which is not fair).

note: Messi's assist to Pedro vs realmadrid (Copa/campnou) or his assist to Abidal (copa/bernabeu) or the assist to Alexis (liga/bernabeu) or the assist to Iniesta (SuperCup/campnou) ... were 10 times better than Cristiano's goals vs Barca (Quality).

So what your saying is ozil did everything perfect in his motm games, and ronaldo only had to score goals to get motm

Although on another note, you think cristiano is a shit passer



go to 12:30. I guess those passes were just luck

Before the messi fanboys slate me, I am merely making a point, not comparing CR to your goddess

I had Ronaldo over Ozil because he was more consistent, Ozil was completely mediocre the first half of the season.

Albiceleste wrote:I had Ronaldo over Ozil because he was more consistent, Ozil was completely mediocre the first half of the season.

I know bro, why do people seem to forget that? Unfortunately for him he WAS playing on the wing, but great players have to adapt..

jd
Couple of points.Firstly you say that there is an obsession with goal scorers and thats why CR and Messi keep dominating.
In the case of CR that is 100% true.
But its grossly unfair to Messi.He is far far far more than just a goal scorer.
He could go without scoring a goal for the entire season and for me he would still be the best player in the world by far.I am sure thats the case for many others.
You also say that you would like Iniesta or Pirlo to win it.Again I am not sure why.
Iniesta had an underwhelming season for us.Never really hit the heights and Messi played atleast a couple of levels above him throughout the season.Just because Iniesta had a great Euros and Messi didnt(cause he didnt participate),should we forget the fact that Messi was far superior over the course of the season.
Same is the case with Pirlo.He had a good season with Juventus butjust not in Messi's league.Messi had arguably the greatest individual season ever.
IMo there is no way either Pirlo or Iniesta deserve to be ahead of Messi.

CBarca wrote:So I kind of just made this up right now in 5 minutes, so it could change, but this is probably my top 10.

1. Lionel Messi
2. Cristiano Ronaldo
3. Andres Iniesta
4. Iker Casillas
5. Andrea Pirlo
6. Xavi
7. Mesut Ozil
8. Pepe
9. Ibrahimovic
10. Xabi Alonso

CB, nice mention of Pepe. I had ignored him. Still since Ramos won the Euro and Kompany was captain of ManCity, I guess both probably edge him out.