Let's List Our Own Top Ten Of 2011-12

CBarca wrote:So I kind of just made this up right now in 5 minutes, so it could change, but this is probably my top 10.

1. Lionel Messi
2. Cristiano Ronaldo
3. Andres Iniesta
4. Iker Casillas
5. Andrea Pirlo
6. Xavi
7. Mesut Ozil
8. Pepe
9. Ibrahimovic
10. Xabi Alonso

CB, nice mention of Pepe. I had ignored him. Still since Ramos won the Euro and Kompany was captain of ManCity, I guess both probably edge him out.

Jonathan28 wrote:CBarca Ozil should be higher up I feel. Germany's best player at the Euros one of Madrids best players last season, he had a better season then Pirlo and Xavi I feel.

Better than Pirlo - Not a chance in my view. Pirlo was MVP in both his teams and kind of flawless except for the Euro 2012 final. He even got the better of Ozil in a direct confrontation. Hence if Ozil places above Pirlo in any official list of any kind I will be shocked.

Better than Xavi - Worth a thought. Xavi in the first half of 2011-12 was the best midfielder in Europe. However it's well known that it's the second half of the season or first half of the year, whatever we want to call it, that makes pretty much all the difference. Here Ozil I suppose was better than Xavi. However then came Euro and while Ozil exited in the semi final, Xavi won the tournament. While both made star team, Xavi was brilliant in the final. So overall it's very close but I would still place Xavi marginally ahead of Ozil while leaving it open to debate.

The Franchise wrote:Best 10 players in the world? I am not sure its even possible for me.

How does one compare say Xavi to Cristiano?

As much as I say Iniesta is better than Cristiano, how do you even begin to compare them.

I know Messi is number 1 and its not very close at all.

I would prefer to have Xavi or Iniesta than Cristiano, but I wouldnt have anyone else over him.

Ibrahimovic is probably just below.

Then comes a group of Ozil, Ribery, Dani Alves, Sergio Busquets, Aguero, maybe Falcao, maybe Hulk, a bigger maybe Neymar, Van Persie, David Silva, Benzema, maybe Rooney, Schweinsteiger and possibly a couple guys I am forgetting who are on similar levels and you could probably debate either way really.

I want to see how Pirlo does playing more than 1 game a week before I jump on the bandwagon. But if he is really back, then I am willing to say he is probably a better player than anyone in the bigger group below Ibra.

I wont even bother counting Centerbacks, its an impossible task. They should all probably be grouped together, but in todays game they are the only oneswho have the least impact on goalscoring, constructing play/possession and so on.

Even more so goalies.

And a final point, I am puzzled by the inclusion of Xabi Alonso in anyones top 10 list.

Wonderful comments dani - a great read.

Didn't Dani Alves have a somewhat under-par season?

How good was Hulk this season? I didn't follow him closely.

Van Persie would have of course been there but Euro 2012 goes against him. Benzema's case is similar.

Ribery had a good season but somehow remained trophyless.

Schweinsteiger? Didn't he have a non-existent season with injuries and failed at Euro when needed most?

As for Xabi Alonso, Madrid won La Liga and exited UCL semi final only on penalties with him as their main central midfielder. With Spain at Euro 2012 I thought he was inconsistent with some good moments interspersed with some wastefulness but he won MOM in the quarter final and Uefa's panel spokesperson called him one of the four best players of the tournament alongside Iniesta, Pirlo and Xavi.

alexjanosik wrote:jd
Couple of points.Firstly you say that there is an obsession with goal scorers and thats why CR and Messi keep dominating.
In the case of CR that is 100% true.
But its grossly unfair to Messi.He is far far far more than just a goal scorer.
He could go without scoring a goal for the entire season and for me he would still be the best player in the world by far.I am sure thats the case for many others.
You also say that you would like Iniesta or Pirlo to win it.Again I am not sure why.
Iniesta had an underwhelming season for us.Never really hit the heights and Messi played atleast a couple of levels above him throughout the season.Just because Iniesta had a great Euros and Messi didnt(cause he didnt participate),should we forget the fact that Messi was far superior over the course of the season.
Same is the case with Pirlo.He had a good season with Juventus butjust not in Messi's league.Messi had arguably the greatest individual season ever.
IMo there is no way either Pirlo or Iniesta deserve to be ahead of Messi.

Good points alex.

1. Of course Messi is much more than a goal scorer. However let's ask ourselves one question. Imagine Messi scored less than half the number of goals that he does per season. Who would be the more revered and talked about player in the world - Messi or C.Ronaldo? That's what my point about the obsession with goal scorers was about.

2. Yes Messi had an excellent individual season. Beyond this we will have to agree to disagree. If I say Messi failed in crucial moments in La Liga and UCL you will then say that it was not his fault, the whole team failed and he was actually better than the others. This I can't debate. Next if I say that last season Pep to my dislike built the team so much around Messi that Iniesta and even Xavi were somewhat marginalized and found it difficult to play a very effective role in the team's prospects which was largely not their fault, then this will start a very controversial debate that is well beyond the scope of this thread. I have always believed in team achievements and the net result is that with everything built around Messi and Xaviesta marginalized, he could not win any major trophy for his team this year while without him Xaviesta once again won the biggest trophy of the summer. In 2010 he didn't reach the final of either the UCL or the World Cup but he at least won La Liga. This season not even that. So since he won in 2010 when I don't think he should have I feel all the more that other players deserve a stronger consideration this time around. This is just my view and I understand that others not only disagree with it but it annoys them as well. As for who should be top of the list I think it's close between five or more players including Messi and I am unable to decide for sure.

JD, your 2nd point is one I have made before, that Pep may have made an error building the team so much around Messi that it negatively affected other players around him. I got slated for making this point of course and got called a Ronaldo fanboy, even though i've been supporting Barca longer then most of those guys lol

What makes it worse though is that Iniesta and Cesc then go and play better for Spain during the Euro's then they did for Barca, sadly, the one difference is that Messi isn't there. Same with other players like Sanchez, they just seem to flourish with Messi not being there, it shouldn't be like that. Some may say that the other players were not on-form or something similar, but I would argue that maybe they would have been on-form if they didn't have to sacrifice their game for Messi, Sanchez especially. Villa(at times) and Pedro(when fit) seem to be some of the few who have adapted well.

messixaviesta wrote:

The Franchise wrote:Best 10 players in the world? I am not sure its even possible for me.

How does one compare say Xavi to Cristiano?

As much as I say Iniesta is better than Cristiano, how do you even begin to compare them.

I know Messi is number 1 and its not very close at all.

I would prefer to have Xavi or Iniesta than Cristiano, but I wouldnt have anyone else over him.

Ibrahimovic is probably just below.

Then comes a group of Ozil, Ribery, Dani Alves, Sergio Busquets, Aguero, maybe Falcao, maybe Hulk, a bigger maybe Neymar, Van Persie, David Silva, Benzema, maybe Rooney, Schweinsteiger and possibly a couple guys I am forgetting who are on similar levels and you could probably debate either way really.

I want to see how Pirlo does playing more than 1 game a week before I jump on the bandwagon. But if he is really back, then I am willing to say he is probably a better player than anyone in the bigger group below Ibra.

I wont even bother counting Centerbacks, its an impossible task. They should all probably be grouped together, but in todays game they are the only oneswho have the least impact on goalscoring, constructing play/possession and so on.

Even more so goalies.

And a final point, I am puzzled by the inclusion of Xabi Alonso in anyones top 10 list.

Wonderful comments dani - a great read.

Didn't Dani Alves have a somewhat under-par season?

How good was Hulk this season? I didn't follow him closely.

Van Persie would have of course been there but Euro 2012 goes against him. Benzema's case is similar.

Ribery had a good season but somehow remained trophyless.

Schweinsteiger? Didn't he have a non-existent season with injuries and failed at Euro when needed most?

As for Xabi Alonso, Madrid won La Liga and exited UCL semi final only on penalties with him as their main central midfielder. With Spain at Euro 2012 I thought he was inconsistent with some good moments interspersed with some wastefulness but he won MOM in the quarter final and Uefa's panel spokesperson called him one of the four best players of the tournament alongside Iniesta, Pirlo and Xavi.

I didnt think Dani Alves was under par, made many assists, even played at the back.

Hulk was injured and had a stop start season, but to me that doesnt decrease him as a player.

I dont count RVP's Euro against him, he wasnt good at all, but he was clearly tired and playing for a team who was completely disfunctional. I wouldnt blame anyone, especially not a striker for a team in such turmoil.

Ribery was titleless through no fault of his own, he was excellent all season.

Yeah, Bastian didnt play much this season but he remains a quality player. Inferior players (like Alonso) I refuse to put over him through no thought of his own.

This all comes down to how we view things. I dont see how their teams done as any reflection on the players, unless it was directly their fault. Benz gets some blame for that in the Euros to me, he played the wrong type of game. But none the less 3 or 4 games doesnt take away his qualities.

Alonso being part of winning teams doesnt mean a thing to me, but that, isnt Arbeloa one of the better rightbacks in the world?

It's based on who performed better over the course of the season not who is the better player.

Top 10 of 2011-2012

Not just top 10 period.

Unless I'm mistaken.

Otherwise my list would be very very different .

What is it?

My way of seeing it is, who is the best player/top 10 players/however many players as of right now (11-12)

Not, who had the best season this season.

Otherwise, if we are doing that, Arouna Kone is better than Pedro and Villa.

alexjanosik wrote:jd
Couple of points.Firstly you say that there is an obsession with goal scorers and thats why CR and Messi keep dominating.
In the case of CR that is 100% true.
But its grossly unfair to Messi.He is far far far more than just a goal scorer.

But here's the thing. Ronaldo's team play is vastly underrated. In comparison to messi it may be not very good, but his passing and team play is not rated at all.. he really can pull some great passes.
If benzema and higuain would've finished better then I think Ronaldo would have more assists.. Same with messi and his teammates. Obviously thats normal, but some of those chances they gave were literally on a china plate.

The Franchise wrote:
I didnt think Dani Alves was under par, made many assists, even played at the back.

Hulk was injured and had a stop start season, but to me that doesnt decrease him as a player.

I dont count RVP's Euro against him, he wasnt good at all, but he was clearly tired and playing for a team who was completely disfunctional. I wouldnt blame anyone, especially not a striker for a team in such turmoil.

Ribery was titleless through no fault of his own, he was excellent all season.

Yeah, Bastian didnt play much this season but he remains a quality player. Inferior players (like Alonso) I refuse to put over him through no thought of his own.

This all comes down to how we view things. I dont see how their teams done as any reflection on the players, unless it was directly their fault. Benz gets some blame for that in the Euros to me, he played the wrong type of game. But none the less 3 or 4 games doesnt take away his qualities.

Alonso being part of winning teams doesnt mean a thing to me, but that, isnt Arbeloa one of the better rightbacks in the world?

dani, as samourai said it was meant to be about performance this season than overall quality of the player at the moment.

Arbeloa is not such a fair comparison. He was probably Spain's weakest player among all the starters while Alonso made the all star team. I have said many times that yes I count titles but it's about your contribution to them. If you are the weakest player and your team has won six titles, you still won't get much credit.

Your other comments are quite fair and acceptable.

I understand though that many others like you do not want to consider titles when evaluating performance and making lists. We will agree to disagree on that.

Jonathan28 wrote:JD, your 2nd point is one I have made before, that Pep may have made an error building the team so much around Messi that it negatively affected other players around him. I got slated for making this point of course and got called a Ronaldo fanboy, even though i've been supporting Barca longer then most of those guys lol

By and large I agree jonathan.

Nowadays one of the things that I HATE most is people calling Barcelona a one man team. From world's best team to one man team, is that how far we have fallen?

messixaviesta wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:jd
Couple of points.Firstly you say that there is an obsession with goal scorers and thats why CR and Messi keep dominating.
In the case of CR that is 100% true.
But its grossly unfair to Messi.He is far far far more than just a goal scorer.
He could go without scoring a goal for the entire season and for me he would still be the best player in the world by far.I am sure thats the case for many others.
You also say that you would like Iniesta or Pirlo to win it.Again I am not sure why.
Iniesta had an underwhelming season for us.Never really hit the heights and Messi played atleast a couple of levels above him throughout the season.Just because Iniesta had a great Euros and Messi didnt(cause he didnt participate),should we forget the fact that Messi was far superior over the course of the season.
Same is the case with Pirlo.He had a good season with Juventus butjust not in Messi's league.Messi had arguably the greatest individual season ever.
IMo there is no way either Pirlo or Iniesta deserve to be ahead of Messi.

Good points alex.

1. Of course Messi is much more than a goal scorer. However let's ask ourselves one question. Imagine Messi scored less than half the number of goals that he does per season. Who would be the more revered and talked about player in the world - Messi or C.Ronaldo? That's what my point about the obsession with goal scorers was about.

2. Yes Messi had an excellent individual season. Beyond this we will have to agree to disagree. If I say Messi failed in crucial moments in La Liga and UCL you will then say that it was not his fault, the whole team failed and he was actually better than the others. This I can't debate. Next if I say that last season Pep to my dislike built the team so much around Messi that Iniesta and even Xavi were somewhat marginalized and found it difficult to play a very effective role in the team's prospects which was largely not their fault, then this will start a very controversial debate that is well beyond the scope of this thread. I have always believed in team achievements and the net result is that with everything built around Messi and Xaviesta marginalized, he could not win any major trophy for his team this year while without him Xaviesta once again won the biggest trophy of the summer. In 2010 he didn't reach the final of either the UCL or the World Cup but he at least won La Liga. This season not even that. So since he won in 2010 when I don't think he should have I feel all the more that other players deserve a stronger consideration this time around. This is just my view and I understand that others not only disagree with it but it annoys them as well. As for who should be top of the list I think it's close between five or more players including Messi and I am unable to decide for sure.

you are only right about being annoying part.

1. Goals are for C.Ronaldo, without them messi can manage himself and be top player. no need to imagine there is a fact that in 2007 he scored just 16 goals and voted 2nd best player in the world. in 2010 world cup C.Ronaldo scored, Messi didnt score, but messi got more praise and nominated for the WC golden ball. So what you said now is completely wrong and i think you started to be very biased after people disagreed with you, you try your best to prove them wrong

2. Messi failed in crucial moment? you mean against Chelsea...again you are wrong he was the best player against Chelsea in first leg and in second he was normal not flop.
And how building team around messi was wrong? how they won CL building team around messi in 2010-11? you mean injuries (Villa, Pedro) and new players (Cuenca, Tello, Cesc) changed the team? maybe you meant this? because i dont believe you are so naive that you didnt see that, 50% of the team changed due to injuries and new players and you blame messi for this, and you blame messi for xavi and iniesta's performance?

and about xaviesta won euro without him......no comment here...a CR fanboy could post better than this. first you combine xavi and iniesta and put against messi as if xaviesta is one player, second you claim that xavi or iniesta won euro as if they played in a medicore team. voters dont know this? they know that spain are the best team and they won it as a team,as they did in 2010 and at the end messi voted the best (and spain's coach said messi was the best player)

^You could say the same for anyone TBH, he already has nice assist numbers, stats aren't what teamplay is about, teamplay is about contributing to build up and link up play, making the right decisions when you have the ball.

Teamplay =/= assist stats.

I could make the exact same argument for Benzema except the fact is , the reason all of our players have such amazing stats is because of the collective brilliance of who they play with.

Ronaldo can get assists because he plays with some of the best strikers in the world in Higuain and Benzema.

Same goes for Benz , Ozil and Di Maria supplying to Ronaldo and Higuain.

Higz and Ronaldo can score many many goals because they play with great creative players.

Higz and Callejon have unparalleled conversion rates of chances in world football, so it's natural that our attackers get assists..Ronaldo also finished the majority of his good chances and contrary to popular belief Benz also does so at a very good rate, despite missing some sitters (which everyone including Higz and Ronaldo do)

The same goes for Messi, you think he scores 70 goals this year without Barca on a whole feeding him? No he doesn't , he played almost completely without other forward/runners behind the defense this year other than Alexis , in the team that creates the most chances in the world.

And he is the focal point.

Of course he is going to score an abnormal amount of goals, he's even going to have an abnormal amount of assists but in a differently constituted team he could have more assists and less goals or less of both as other options become available to fulfill both requirements.

Stats aren't the way to go about comparing players, stats are subjective and dependent on too many exogenous factors outside of each individual player's skill level.

It's nice to have things clearcut like that, but they aren't.

And I disagree with his teamplay being underrated.I think vast improvement could be made in that area to suit our team as it is currently constituted. I think his game would benefit from having a target man, but naturally his goal stats would significantly suffer.

I hope Benzema develops the striker game because he is big , strong, faster than most centre backs, once he does that, all of a sudden someone like Ronaldo's assist stats, or Di Maria's who often take on defenders and get in decent crosses will go up.

It doesn't mean Ronaldo suddeny became a better player, all it means is Benz will have added to his game to suit who is around him.

And you know I think he overshoots and it's whatever in my mind, but if he really wants to be a team player he should stop it....it would help our team...I guarantee that, but it wouldn't help him as a individual.I think he deserves criticism for it, some don't , but it's a major knock on him to me because it simply means less high percentage chances for us to score goals.

Le Samourai wrote:^You could say the same for anyone TBH, he already has nice assist numbers, stats aren't what teamplay is about, teamplay is about contributing to build up and link up play, making the right decisions when you have the ball.

Teamplay =/= assist stats.

And Messi does that best by huge landslide.

I could make the exact same argument for Benzema except the fact is , the reason all of our players have such amazing stats is because of the collective brilliance of who they play with.

Ronaldo can get assists because he plays with some of the best strikers in the world in Higuain and Benzema.

Same goes for Benz , Ozil and Di Maria supplying to Ronaldo and Higuain.

Higz and Ronaldo can score many many goals because they play with great creative players.

Higz and Callejon have unparalleled conversion rates of chances in world football, so it's natural that our attackers get assists..Ronaldo also finished the majority of his good chances and contrary to popular belief Benz also does so at a very good rate, despite missing some sitters (which everyone including Higz and Ronaldo do)

The same goes for Messi, you think he scores 70 goals this year without Barca on a whole feeding him? No he doesn't , he played almost completely without other forward/runners behind the defense this year other than Alexis , in the team that creates the most chances in the world.

And he is the focal point. Of course he is going to score an abnormal amount of goals, he's even going to have an abnormal amount of assists but in a differently constituted team he could have more assists and less goals or less of both as other options become available to fulfill both requirements.

It's Messi who creates most chances in the world. His goals are also the most individualistic by big margin, it's usually him who builds up his own goals. And there is no-one like him in the world, who scores a lot. Cronaldo is like any other great forward, who plays in a great team.

2011-2012
Messi 73 goals, 18/73 or 25% penalty/tapin, 44% directly assisted. 35 assists.
Cronaldo 60 goals, 21/60 or 35% penalty/tapin, 72% directly assisted. 15 assists.
RvP 37 goals, 12/37 or 32% penalty/tapin, 81% directly assisted. 14 assists.

2010-2011
Messi 53 goals, 9/53 or 17% penalty/tapin, 53% directly assisted. 28 assists.
Cronaldo 53 goals, 20/53 or 38% penalty/tapin, 75% directly assisted. 18 assists.



Benz and Hig were just as effective than Cronaldo, compared to the time they played, and that even without penalties.

Oh boy, here we go again with the stats

Giggity5313 wrote:Oh boy, here we go again with the stats

What is wrong with you? Did milk run out for your cereals?

Messi created 136 goal-scoring chances this season (Liga+UCL), that's more than Xavi & Iniesta combined (132).

If Villa and Pedro were fit, Messi would have easily had more than 29 assists for Barcelona this season.
{I expect Messi to improve his record of 29-33 assists per season, number of goals will be more difficult to improve (73-82)}.

Again (imo), Ballon d'or should be for the player with best individual performance...
Its not for a player on the team with most trophies (Trophies are won by teams)...
-------------------

@JD? Why not Casillas?
He won the Euro (Spain) and Liga (Real Madrid).
Starter in every match, played an important role on his team.

note: I'm against this point of view... But, I'm surprised that JD and Jonathan think that Cristiano will/deserve to win it (since he won Liga, Messi won just 4 minor trophies).
This is why I'm asking this question...

Without best forwards Messi got best assist numbers in his career, saying c.ronaldo didnt get assists because madrid strikers can not finish is laughable. i believe benzema and higuain are better finishers than iniesta and sanchez

billionmillion wrote:Without best forwards Messi got best assist numbers in his career, saying c.ronaldo didnt get assists because madrid strikers can not finish is laughable. i believe benzema and higuain are better finishers than iniesta and sanchez

And before his injury Villa were in god awful form, blundered at least 10 Messi throughballs.

i still wonder how so called CR's euro "performance" changed people's opinion as some posters believe here

Dino Zoff:
"I would be happy to give it to Casillas," the Italy legend told AS. "But, honestly, I cannot see it. I think Messi will win it again. For me he's the best player in the world; he is an artist"

another quote from Ronaldo
"I am more a fan of Real Madrid," he told Marca. "But there is no doubt that Messi is the best player in the world."


scoring is not everything get over it

Perfect example. culminating Messi, and La Liga, luck, referees etc.

First game against Valencia 2-2 and Messi didn't score, yet

- Assisted both Barcelona's goals (isn't only about scoring)
- Should have had 2 penalties by his own individual effort, and second yellow and red card for Valencian player. (referees and luck in the first half of the season)
- At last moments gave Villa 1on1 to give Barca all three points (bad finishing)

jiopsi wrote:Perfect example. culminating Messi, and La Liga, luck, referees etc.

First game against Valencia 2-2 and Messi didn't score, yet

- Assisted both Barcelona's goals (isn't only about scoring)
- Should have had 2 penalties by his own individual effort, and second yellow and red card for Valencian player. (referees and luck in the first half of the season)
- At last moments gave Villa 1on1 to give Barca all three points (bad finishing)

100%

Okay JD, if not Arbeloa what about Sami Khedira?

Won La Liga, actually played pretty well for Germany and got to the semis.

Is he now one of the better centermids in the world? Surely he is better than say Luca Modric by this logic, who won nothing and really didnt even play well in the big games.


I understand this way of discussing, but to me, its very flawed, Khedira is in reality nowhere near Modric and I struggle to really engage in that way of thinking. If it is like that, then I have to respectfully decline to make a top 10 selection.

The Franchise wrote:Okay JD, if not Arbeloa what about Sami Khedira?

Won La Liga, actually played pretty well for Germany and got to the semis.

Is he now one of the better centermids in the world? Surely he is better than say Luca Modric by this logic, who won nothing and really didnt even play well in the big games.


I understand this way of discussing, but to me, its very flawed, Khedira is in reality nowhere near Modric and I struggle to really engage in that way of thinking. If it is like that, then I have to respectfully decline to make a top 10 selection.

Well that makes sense dani - nothing more to add really.

billionmillion wrote:you are only right about being annoying part.

1. Goals are for C.Ronaldo, without them messi can manage himself and be top player. no need to imagine there is a fact that in 2007 he scored just 16 goals and voted 2nd best player in the world. in 2010 world cup C.Ronaldo scored, Messi didnt score, but messi got more praise and nominated for the WC golden ball. So what you said now is completely wrong and i think you started to be very biased after people disagreed with you, you try your best to prove them wrong

2. Messi failed in crucial moment? you mean against Chelsea...again you are wrong he was the best player against Chelsea in first leg and in second he was normal not flop.
And how building team around messi was wrong? how they won CL building team around messi in 2010-11? you mean injuries (Villa, Pedro) and new players (Cuenca, Tello, Cesc) changed the team? maybe you meant this? because i dont believe you are so naive that you didnt see that, 50% of the team changed due to injuries and new players and you blame messi for this, and you blame messi for xavi and iniesta's performance?

and about xaviesta won euro without him......no comment here...a CR fanboy could post better than this. first you combine xavi and iniesta and put against messi as if xaviesta is one player, second you claim that xavi or iniesta won euro as if they played in a medicore team. voters dont know this? they know that spain are the best team and they won it as a team,as they did in 2010 and at the end messi voted the best (and spain's coach said messi was the best player)

If you can't even listen to a difference in opinion because of your blind devotion towards Messi then what am I supposed to do. Am I supposed to stop saying what I feel just because it annoys you? If you don't want to reply to my views then please feel free but by trying to start a war of insults and counter-insults, what do you hope to achieve? Anyway I will not get into it. If I didn't know you from before I would have placed you in my ignore list as I have done with several other posters at these forums but I am persisting only because we have had good relations in the past.

Most of what you have written shows that you have largely not read and/or understood my comments. Hence I will try replying only to the relevant bits.

1. I hardly said anything here. Instead I asked people a question. If you feel Messi will still be more revered then say so and let's hear what the others say.

2. If I have the two best midfielders in the world I will not support playing a forward as my main midfielder even if he is the best player in the world. That's just my opinion and everyone else can disagree if they want. Yes some adjustments were made because of new players and injuries but I also felt that Pep reduced himself from a brilliant coach to too much of a fan of Messi. He tried to give Messi center stage all the time at the expense of other players. It's purely speculative and I can't prove it but I do at times think that if Pep had played Xavi and Iniesta together in midfield right through the season and asked Messi to stay further up instead of dropping back so much we would have won UCL and perhaps even La Liga. I am not blaming Messi at all for all this but I do blame Pep. He was outstanding for three seasons and disappointing in his last one.

3. No Xavi and Iniesta did not play in a mediocre team. No this does not make Xavi or Iniesta better players than Messi. However it does make them come off as having achieved more than Messi this season in just my book because above all I go by team achievements and trophies as I have said before.

Your obviously a far better man then I am JD cause I have put Jiopsi and Billionmillion on my ignore list, and I havent even been back a week. Never thought I would have to block fellow Barca fans but how they have annoyed me so.

On-topic, I've changed my top 10 a little.

1.Ronaldo
2.Messi
3.Iniesta
4.Xavi
5.Pirlo
6.Ibrahimovic
7.Ribery
8.Ozil
9.Casillas
10.Any Man City player