Re: What is the cause of Guardiola's success?

by izzy Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:42 pm

white_star wrote:No I did not say that I was just stating that it is a big deal for madero to beat barca when they are in their way of winning it's just common sense!

Why am I still posting in this thread?

The word 'IF' comes to mind.
Let's us it. Say Madrid won the League and CL and drew with Barca in both league games and they didn't meet each other in the CL, does that mean Mou has not proven himself as he did not beat Barca, but beat them to Two trophies Barca were in contention of winning?
You will be judge on your trophies as a manager in a high-profile job, silverware is what comes first, how it was achieved comes second.
It's a poor way to judge managers but what can you do? People like David Moyes will constantly get overlooked for the great jobs they are doing because of a lack of silverware or the profile of the club they are at.

by kiranr Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:44 pm

jibers wrote:Some people on this forum are ridiculous, without Guardiola, where was Barcelona? Guardiola is the most important part of this Barcelona team by a mile. The guy has brought about a revolution. People keep saying that without the squad blah blah blah. Pique was on the bench the season before the treble, Pedro was about to be sold by Barca, Messi was always getting injured, iniesta was very inconsistent. Henry was poor in the previous season. People keep saying that it's down to xavi and iniesta but I disagree strongly. As a tactical coach, I believe Guardiola is the best in the world at the moment. The guy's tactics and coaching, made a player like pique, who could not start the season before 2009, be able to become one of the best CB in the world. Guardiola coaches each player on how to work withing Barcelona's particular system, he deosn't coach them on shooting and dribbling, hence there is emphasis on short passing and movement. Guardiola is the one that tells xavi and iniesta what to do. Messi is the only X factor in that team as you cannot coach to dribble like that. The pressing and discipline he added to that team is unbelievable.

How people can say Mourinho is a great coach is beyond me. I am a big fan of his but the guy is always handed a war chest to build his squad, yet people say that anyone can win with those players Guardiola has, why didnt rijkaard do it for 2 seasons then? Then the excuses will pour out. To discredit Guardiola RM fans will say Cruyff deserves all the credit and that Barcelona has always played that way blah de blah de blah. Barcelona since cruyff have always moved the ball on the ground but Guardiola has made sure that possession is a must of the team, whereas before possession was a result of their football, Pep has made sure that they get results as a...err...result of the possession. You know hwat I mean. Guardiolas tactics have been so influencial that Spain used it in a more rigid way in the WC 2010. The man is a silent genius.

When Barcelona beat RM 5-0 it was not due to the fact that Barcelona outplayed them but it was Mou that got the tactics wrong, but when Mou beat Barcelona he outplayed them and he became a genius. People keep going on about barcelonas cycle, it will end when Guardiola leves.

i agree with you Jibers, especially the last line. It will be extremely difficult to replace Pep. Why do you think SAF wants Pep to be his successor...

by alexjanosik Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:46 pm

jibers wrote:
alexjanosik wrote:Allow me to break down the Special Five Tactical Playbook for you my dear Stoke fans.
Against a big team park the bus and hope for a lucky goal on the counter.
If it works get Perez and his propaganda buffoons to shove it down every Stoke fans throat that the Special Five is a tactical genius.
If it doesnt work and you go down put 4 forwards on the park and ask Adebayor to take players heads off.
When all else fails cry a river.

Is this really you alex? Why the hostility bro? What did you think of my post?

Yep its me.I rarely post on here.But frankly sometimes the Stoke fans just make me sick.
They keep running their mouths and taking cheapshots at the club every opportunity they get.Got to give it back sometimes.
And besides what I said is true.Mourinho is no tactical genius.Otherwise let them clearly state why he is one.
I liked your post.Interesting though I dont agree in full.Obviously Pep has played a big part in our revival but there were a convergence of factors.Every great manager needs a good to great team to be this good.
You cant win with scrubs.So while I do agree that Pep deserves plenty of praise its not entirely him.A superb generation of players coming together is also a major reason.

by the xcx Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:47 pm

Immaculate_Mole wrote:
The xcx wrote:
Immaculate_Mole wrote:
The xcx wrote:
alexjanosik wrote:
Lord Hispano wrote:
alexjanosik wrote:
Lord Hispano wrote:
alexjanosik wrote:Mourinho is an average tactician.A one trick pony.
Pep schooled Mourinho at the Bernabeau by playing a waiting game and the supposed tactician genius was stumped.
Got his ass handed back to him.
Pep>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.Special Five as a tactician.

When will Stoke fans realize that parking the bus doesnt take a tactical genius to pull off.Hell even the Stoke fans on here can do it.

Barca won that game through a mistake from the ref. More the refs fault than Pep's.

The closet Stoke fan.
Jog it on son.
The last time this happened I asked Stoke fans to kindly explain why the Special Five was so great tactically.And none could explain because he isnt.He is average tactically.Like I said any dumbo can park the bus.Hell even you can.
Doesnt mean you are Cruyff or Sacchi or Michels or Guardiola.

Then why isn't everyone beating Barca.

According to you, if Defensive Football doesn't reqire skill then why doesn't everyone beat Barca with it?

It takes extreme discipline to keep a team like Barca (who are also disciplined Attackwise) at bay. Why is it that only Madrid (and Arsenal) defeated Barca at their max.

When did I say it doesnt require skill.I said it doesnt take a tactical genius to PTB.Notice the difference.
Plenty of teams troubled us by parking the bus.Hercules,Rubin(a lot),Chelsea,Stoke and a few more.
Does it mean that the Rubin manager is a tactical genius.
No it does not.Same way the Special Five isnt a tactical genius just because he parked the bus.
Its really mundane and any decent football fan worth his salt can do it.
My challenge still stands.Kindly explain how the Special Five is a tactical genius?
But obviously you cant.Thats why you had to resort to talking about skill.
So much idiocy. *Must...not...laugh*

If he's such an idiot why cant you back up your claim that Mourinho is a tactical genius with actual facts ?

Oh that's right you cant because he is'nt.
duhhhh, It dosent take a tactical genius to win you games nor trophies. Ambiton, hardworking, determined, discipline and right choiches are part of it.

Of course but what Alex was saying is what makes Mourinho a tactical genius and you called him an idiot for when Mourinho is not a tactical genius.

Juanmo Lillo is more of a tactical genius as he invented the 4-2-3-1, does'nt make him better mind but calling Alex an idiot because he feels Mourinho is'nt a tactical genius without any facts to back up your argument is a bit childish imo.

Also no one is saying Mourinho is'nt a great coach his trophys show hes a fantastic coach but tactical genius imo he is not.

And for your sakes, I didint call him an idiot because of him bashing Mou, just look some other stupidass claims he has made, they speak for themselves.

by alexjanosik Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:49 pm

Still waiting.
The closet Stoke fan seems to have done a Houdini.
Where is Gagarin,my favorite?
I will never forget the Di Stefano debacle.

by izzy Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:51 pm

alexjanosik wrote:Still waiting.
The closet Stoke fan seems to have done a Houdini.
Where is Gagarin,my favorite?
I will never forget the Di Stefano debacle.

I think it's best if you just stop now.
It's very obvious that Hispano doesn't want to continue debating with you.

by alexjanosik Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:54 pm

izzy26 wrote:
alexjanosik wrote:Still waiting.
The closet Stoke fan seems to have done a Houdini.
Where is Gagarin,my favorite?
I will never forget the Di Stefano debacle.

I think it's best if you just stop now.
It's very obvious that Hispano doesn't want to continue debating with you.

And who are you,his proxy?
I take thats a no on your part as well.
Any other Stoke fan care to explain why The Special Five is a tactical genius?

by jibers Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:56 pm

alexjanosik wrote:
jibers wrote:
alexjanosik wrote:Allow me to break down the Special Five Tactical Playbook for you my dear Stoke fans.
Against a big team park the bus and hope for a lucky goal on the counter.
If it works get Perez and his propaganda buffoons to shove it down every Stoke fans throat that the Special Five is a tactical genius.
If it doesnt work and you go down put 4 forwards on the park and ask Adebayor to take players heads off.
When all else fails cry a river.

Is this really you alex? Why the hostility bro? What did you think of my post?

Yep its me.I rarely post on here.But frankly sometimes the Stoke fans just make me sick.
They keep running their mouths and taking cheapshots at the club every opportunity they get.Got to give it back sometimes.
And besides what I said is true.Mourinho is no tactical genius.Otherwise let them clearly state why he is one.
I liked your post.Interesting though I dont agree in full.Obviously Pep has played a big part in our revival but there were a convergence of factors.Every great manager needs a good to great team to be this good.
You cant win with scrubs.So while I do agree that Pep deserves plenty of praise its not entirely him.A superb generation of players coming together is also a major reason.

I believe that he made use of the tactics with the players he had available to him, are you telling me pedro and busquets and even pique before he came were extremely talented. It's his coaching that has turned them around. Gudjonson evenm said that he doesnt think that busqets is a great individual player but he follows INSTRUCTIONS very well. Pedro was about to be shipped out. Guardiola has molded ALL his players to fit the team, obviously it is easier for some than others. even xavi as well. the guy is given a specific task by pep. People are under the illusion that Pep allows Barcelona to play with freedom, I have never heard such BS in my life. Barcelona is one of the most restricted teams I have ever seen. The only two that ever try to express themselves are iniesta and messi. iniesta does sparringly. The whole point of not losing possession is that it requires discipline and so playes are never direct. Peopel keep going on about the generation but I think it's pep s tactics that make all of their strewngths look better. If pique played for a CA team he would struggle because he lacks pace, but with a team like Barca where they have 70% of the ball, he has been able to hone his strength and his ability to read the game has improved AS A RESULT of the team's tactics.

by harhar11 Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:56 pm

Lord Hispano wrote:
alexjanosik wrote:Mourinho is an average tactician.A one trick pony.
Pep schooled Mourinho at the Bernabeau by playing a waiting game and the supposed tactician genius was stumped.
Got his ass handed back to him.
Pep>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.Special Five as a tactician.

When will Stoke fans realize that parking the bus doesnt take a tactical genius to pull off.Hell even the Stoke fans on here can do it.

Barca won that game through a mistake from the ref. More the refs fault than Pep's.

Why did you have to bring that up? and so you know it wasn't because of a referee mistake that barca won. I would say that its the complete opposite,if the referee wouldn't have been so lenient barca would have had a penalty(marcelo stamp on pedro while the ball was still in play) and atleast 2 players sent off, marcelo and adebayor..

by harhar11 Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:58 pm

jibers wrote:
alexjanosik wrote:
jibers wrote:
alexjanosik wrote:Allow me to break down the Special Five Tactical Playbook for you my dear Stoke fans.
Against a big team park the bus and hope for a lucky goal on the counter.
If it works get Perez and his propaganda buffoons to shove it down every Stoke fans throat that the Special Five is a tactical genius.
If it doesnt work and you go down put 4 forwards on the park and ask Adebayor to take players heads off.
When all else fails cry a river.

Is this really you alex? Why the hostility bro? What did you think of my post?

Yep its me.I rarely post on here.But frankly sometimes the Stoke fans just make me sick.
They keep running their mouths and taking cheapshots at the club every opportunity they get.Got to give it back sometimes.
And besides what I said is true.Mourinho is no tactical genius.Otherwise let them clearly state why he is one.
I liked your post.Interesting though I dont agree in full.Obviously Pep has played a big part in our revival but there were a convergence of factors.Every great manager needs a good to great team to be this good.
You cant win with scrubs.So while I do agree that Pep deserves plenty of praise its not entirely him.A superb generation of players coming together is also a major reason.

I believe that he made use of the tactics with the players he had available to him, are you telling me pedro and busquets and even pique before he came were extremely talented. It's his coaching that has turned them around. Gudjonson evenm said that he doesnt think that busqets is a great individual player but he follows INSTRUCTIONS very well. Pedro was about to be shipped out. Guardiola has molded ALL his players to fit the team, obviously it is easier for some than others. even xavi as well. the guy is given a specific task by pep. People are under the illusion that Pep allows Barcelona to play with freedom, I have never heard such BS in my life. Barcelona is one of the most restricted teams I have ever seen. The only two that ever try to express themselves are iniesta and messi. iniesta does sparringly. The whole point of not losing possession is that it requires discipline and so playes are never direct. Peopel keep going on about the generation but I think it's pep s tactics that make all of their strewngths look better. If pique played for a CA team he would struggle because he lacks pace, but with a team like Barca where they have 70% of the ball, he has been able to hone his strength and his ability to read the game has improved AS A RESULT of the team's tactics.

Pace isn't everything for a defender, your captain is a proof of that..

by The Madrid One Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:58 pm

dam, people sure do get fired up.

imagine if the greatest trolls in internet history were in this one thread, people would shoot them selves, yet fight pointless battles on the internet...

by izzy Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:59 pm

alexjanosik wrote:And who are you,his proxy?
I take thats a no on your part as well.
Any other Stoke fan care to explain why The Special Five is a tactical genius?

Nah, not really. Getting aggresive ain't really gonna get you a response.
And no i'm not a Stoke fan, Support Real Madrid.

by Busby Babe Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:07 pm

I always thought Pique was a good player, even when he was at United. It was just tough to break through with players like Ferdinand and Vidic ahead of him.

by alexjanosik Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:08 pm

jibers wrote:
alexjanosik wrote:
jibers wrote:
alexjanosik wrote:Allow me to break down the Special Five Tactical Playbook for you my dear Stoke fans.
Against a big team park the bus and hope for a lucky goal on the counter.
If it works get Perez and his propaganda buffoons to shove it down every Stoke fans throat that the Special Five is a tactical genius.
If it doesnt work and you go down put 4 forwards on the park and ask Adebayor to take players heads off.
When all else fails cry a river.

Is this really you alex? Why the hostility bro? What did you think of my post?

Yep its me.I rarely post on here.But frankly sometimes the Stoke fans just make me sick.
They keep running their mouths and taking cheapshots at the club every opportunity they get.Got to give it back sometimes.
And besides what I said is true.Mourinho is no tactical genius.Otherwise let them clearly state why he is one.
I liked your post.Interesting though I dont agree in full.Obviously Pep has played a big part in our revival but there were a convergence of factors.Every great manager needs a good to great team to be this good.
You cant win with scrubs.So while I do agree that Pep deserves plenty of praise its not entirely him.A superb generation of players coming together is also a major reason.

I believe that he made use of the tactics with the players he had available to him, are you telling me pedro and busquets and even pique before he came were extremely talented. It's his coaching that has turned them around. Gudjonson evenm said that he doesnt think that busqets is a great individual player but he follows INSTRUCTIONS very well. Pedro was about to be shipped out. Guardiola has molded ALL his players to fit the team, obviously it is easier for some than others. even xavi as well. the guy is given a specific task by pep. People are under the illusion that Pep allows Barcelona to play with freedom, I have never heard such BS in my life. Barcelona is one of the most restricted teams I have ever seen. The only two that ever try to express themselves are iniesta and messi. iniesta does sparringly. The whole point of not losing possession is that it requires discipline and so playes are never direct. Peopel keep going on about the generation but I think it's pep s tactics that make all of their strewngths look better. If pique played for a CA team he would struggle because he lacks pace, but with a team like Barca where they have 70% of the ball, he has been able to hone his strength and his ability to read the game has improved AS A RESULT of the team's tactics.

I will agree that Pedro is not talented.
But Pique and especially Busquets are very very talented.
Busquets has a ridiculous technique.I am sure you noticed his on the ball skills when Barca played United.
His on the ball skills have nothing to do with Pep nor do his almost perfect tactical qualities.The guy reads the plays perfectly.Sort of like Carrick in your defense but better.
Coming to Pique again very good technique,very strong and very good in the air.Good positionally and a good man marker as well.He is a tad slow over short distances but over long distances you would be surprised to know that he has kept pace with CR.
Coming to Xavi again insane technique and on ball skills.Godly passing and tactically perfect.
When he does a 360 degree and leaves 2 players on their ass that has nothing to do with Guardiola.
Before Pep Xavi was not the fulcrum of the team.Pep came in,got rid of Deco and made Xavi the fulcrum.
He gave Xavi the platform to prove how good he really could be.The rest was upto Xavi.
I could go on about the likes of Eto'o,Villa,Alves,Puyol etc.All WC and champion players.Sure Pep had an influence on them but they were great players who Pep just got the best out of.
I agree with you that Pep must be give credit for the current system which has maximised the potential of the players.But surely 3 leagues and 2 CL's cant be achieved with just a perfect system.It also needs great players to implement it.

by Albiceleste Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:17 pm

izzy26 wrote:
kiranr wrote:Defensive football surely requires great skill and discipline. But tell me, what tactics did Mourinho employ that makes him a great tactician? I am only talking about Madrid vs Barcelona matches last season. Even Rubin Kazan were able to hold Barcelona.

I didn't know that results against Barca are all that mattered in football nowadays.

Barcelona are the only real team Fake Madrid and Llourinho faced last year, his tactics were horrible in the november clasico and parking the bus in the rest of them.

by izzy Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:19 pm

Lionel Messi wrote:Barcelona are the only real team Fake Madrid and Llourinho faced last year, his tactics were horrible in the november clasico and parking the bus in the rest of them.

Topics been discussed,and i'm definately not going to even bother discussing it with you.

by Ganso Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:19 pm

kind of hard not to park the bus with sideways passing.

by Albiceleste Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:23 pm

Ganso wrote:kind of hard not to park the bus with sideways passing.

all that sideways passing put 5 goals past them in one game

by SaintJoe Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:28 pm

What's with all the Mourinho bashing? And Pep bashing?

Mourinho, either you want it or not, is one of the greatest coaches of all time. He won Uefa + CL consecutively with a small club (Porto), won Chelsea a Premier League title after 50? years and won Inter a CL after 40? years, also being the first person ever in Italy to win a treble. Not only that, he's the only who has managed to stop Barcelona (yes, this is a god damn accomplishment) in the last 2 years, with 2 different clubs.

And Pep, another great man. He's won so much shit I can't even count them anymore. He's formed a great team, one of those teams that will live on even after they're gone.

What's with all this 'but Mourinho isn't a tactical genius!'? Who the hell cares? Being a coach is more than that. What if he's not? That doesn't make him any less a genius.

Some of you are so blinded by your own club it makes me sad Sad

by Albiceleste Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:38 pm

SaintJoe wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
The referee came out and admitted to it, and they got kicked out of the Champions League

Hmm... no we didn't?

Lionel Messi wrote:
If Porto didn't bribe the refs Mourinho wouldn't have won the champion's league with Porto

What? The bribery accusation was in the portuguese league.

http://www.sport.es/es/noticias/resto-del-mundo/20110514/corrupcion-oporto-que-entrenaba-mourinho/1004994.shtml

"accusation"? LOL please.

Don't forget he got passed Man U because of referee wrongly disallowing a clearly onside goal and got passed Barca with an offside goal last year. Where are people calling it the "Old Trafford Scandal" or the "San Siro Scandal"??

by the xcx Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:43 pm

Lionel Messi wrote:
SaintJoe wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
The referee came out and admitted to it, and they got kicked out of the Champions League

Hmm... no we didn't?

Lionel Messi wrote:
If Porto didn't bribe the refs Mourinho wouldn't have won the champion's league with Porto

What? The bribery accusation was in the portuguese league.
http://www.sport.es/es/noticias/resto-del-mundo/20110514/corrupcion-oporto-que-entrenaba-mourinho/1004994.shtml

"accusation"? LOL please.

Don't forget he got passed Man U because of referee wrongly disallowing a clearly onside goal and got passed Barca with an offside goal last year. Where are people calling it the "Old Trafford Scandal" or the "San Siro Scandal"??

Every club that has achieved to the final, had some kind of referee blunder or mistake? Bayern for instance

by Albiceleste Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:45 pm

The xcx wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
SaintJoe wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
The referee came out and admitted to it, and they got kicked out of the Champions League

Hmm... no we didn't?

Lionel Messi wrote:
If Porto didn't bribe the refs Mourinho wouldn't have won the champion's league with Porto

What? The bribery accusation was in the portuguese league.
http://www.sport.es/es/noticias/resto-del-mundo/20110514/corrupcion-oporto-que-entrenaba-mourinho/1004994.shtml

"accusation"? LOL please.

Don't forget he got passed Man U because of referee wrongly disallowing a clearly onside goal and got passed Barca with an offside goal last year. Where are people calling it the "Old Trafford Scandal" or the "San Siro Scandal"??
Every club that has achieved to the final, had some kind of referee blunder or mistake? Bayern for instance

Okay, well then why aren't the other managers going out and saying that UEFA is corrupt and favors a certain team because the referee made a mistake or calling it a scandal if they lose?

by SaintJoe Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:55 pm

Lionel Messi wrote:
http://www.sport.es/es/noticias/resto-del-mundo/20110514/corrupcion-oporto-que-entrenaba-mourinho/1004994.shtml

"accusation"? LOL please.

Don't forget he got passed Man U because of referee wrongly disallowing a clearly onside goal and got passed Barca with an offside goal last year. Where are people calling it the "Old Trafford Scandal" or the "San Siro Scandal"??

You have no idea what you're talking about, and it's getting annoying. What is so funny? Porto were accused of corruption in the portuguese league (which they were later 'forgiven'). Not on the Champions League. It's not like Porto has any weight internationally.

I don't remember the game vs Manchester, I only remember the goal in the last minute. I'll believe you that there was a goal wrongly disallowed though. But why aren't you mentioning any mistakes against Porto?
And Inter vs Barcelona? Again, why aren't you mentioning any mistakes against Inter? Like the famous Busquets 'peek-a-boo'?

But yeah, you don't even care, you're just here to trash Porto for no apparent reason, I bet you didn't even see the Manchester-Porto game, you just read it somewhere and you're repeating it because you think you'll have a good argument. Or something.

by Doc Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:57 pm

Well this went nowhere pretty fast. As for the question that individual asked about Mourinho being a tactical genius, well, he isn't. I doubt the man himself thinks such things. Like Messi being the greatest player ever or Milner being awful, it's all just media and fan hyperbole.

What the man understands is that certain strategies are needed to be deployed in certain matches. You would see his team play some really nice football and then a very defensive, discipline match in other matches. He's been very successful in employing such things thus he's been called a "tactical genius" for basic common sense.

I actually look at the same men who disregard Pep's achievement the same way I look at men who disregard Mourinho's achievement: with pity and disappointment. Two great managers in their own right...

by Ganso Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:19 pm

Lionel Messi wrote:
Ganso wrote:kind of hard not to park the bus with sideways passing.
all that sideways passing put 5 goals past them in one game

never said it wasnt effective,just pointing out that there isnt a single team in the world who will not be defensive while the opposition is in attack mode for 70% of the match.

by jibers Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:27 pm

Mou and pep are both great managers. Guardiolas tactics have ben the basis for spains success. Mourinho is a very practical man, he is not a revoutionary coach but a reaction coach. Still heis a great man, and people that say he is defensive need to get a grip. You do the best with what you have, chelsea being defensive under him is a myth, thye scored goals but because they were almot impossible to beat they were labelled defensive. Inter was different, he had to use what he had, and real scored the most goals in la liga last season. People seem to think that it is easy to attack barca. Pep is still for me the best COACH in the world, and he has been for a while. SAF is still the best MANAGER though.

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