Football is over

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Post by Vibe Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:40 am

Or am I just getting old smoking

The cycle is over boys. Football entered it's prime in early 2000's, when we had an abundance of maestros in every corner. Even the shittiest teams had that one guy, usually a 10, who would make that team a joy to watch.

I remember my first days as a Serie A fan where I absolutely fell in love with football and watched every game religiously, because even if you tune in to a team like Bologna you would have Giuseppe Signori, if you watched Brescia you had Baggio, Atalanta had Doni, and if you tuned in to teams like Fiorentina or Parma you had several world class footballers on display, and those weren't even top 5 teams.

Early 2000's was the last era of individual quality. Enter tactical evolution and the Mourinho/Guardiola rivalry, the middle game of modern football prime. Despite it being the death of number 10 and individual quality transitioned to tactical prowess, to me it was interesting as fuck. Tactics allowed smaller teams a more competitive field against more talented teams which led to some notable upsets. As the first era graced Serie A, the second era culminated in Spain. Those Classico's felt like all out freaking WAR, I never felt such tension in football, before of after.

This was also the beggining of the end game of modern football prime, the greatest rivalry, the last of the Vikings, Messi vs Ronaldo. And now it is over...

I wonder what is next for football. These past 20-ish years have been incredible and will be hard to top. I am so grateful to have witnessed it.

I guess the next era is moneyball. It is already very present for a while, but now it is taking over. Serie A had the maestros, La Liga had tactical war, and England will have dieselball Laughing Tough luck.
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Post by Robespierre Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:08 am

Except for Englishmen

They've Superleague at their home
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Post by Arquitecto Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:44 am

Honestly we all will tend to glorify our favourite times of football. For me being early to mid 2000s. It's a subjective reality that will fly over ones head due to that.

Fact is the sport is just going through a generational transition so yes some eras are stronger than others but I cannot agree that football is over for if anything its the political involvement and reductionist tactics that have taken the spark away from some aspects. But for every shortcoming of the current era a new and better player and system will reveal itself to be a blessing to the game.
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Post by Art Morte Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:31 pm

I do think the ceiling has lowered a bit. Meaning that there are fewer exciting, world-class players. I put this down to kids having more options to do in their free-time, so they don't spend as many hours playing football (or sports in general).

On the other hand the floor has also risen. There's better training and coaching at all levels and ages. The bang-average player in most leagues is probably better than his counterpart from 20 years ago.

Also possible that I'm way off the mark with these assumptions.
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Post by futbol Tue Feb 28, 2023 1:14 pm

Yeah, but what hasn't declined? Movies, music, games, cars, fashion. Everything is dull, generic, repetitive, mass produced, boring and worse compares to 20 years ago.

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Post by Vibe Tue Feb 28, 2023 1:41 pm

futbol wrote:Yeah, but what hasn't declined? Movies, music, games, cars, fashion. Everything is dull, generic, repetitive, mass produced, boring and worse compares to 20 years ago.


I feel the same. But is it really just our perception of things? You only see through the eyes of a child once, then the rest is just more shit you've already seen piling up.
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Post by Pedram Tue Feb 28, 2023 1:51 pm

futbol wrote:Yeah, but what hasn't declined? Movies, music, games, cars, fashion. Everything is dull, generic, repetitive, mass produced, boring and worse compares to 20 years ago.

Games have gotten better, nobody used to take them seriously as a medium.
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Post by Arquitecto Tue Feb 28, 2023 2:13 pm

futbol wrote:Yeah, but what hasn't declined? Movies, music, games, cars, fashion. Everything is dull, generic, repetitive, mass produced, boring and worse compares to 20 years ago.


I used to think along these lines in my early 20s but the fact is we are growing older thus not accepted changes in certain status-quos. The generation that are enjoying the current things for instance will complain similarly to the next generation of assortments in this fashion.

This just is a thing for the boomers and gen-x complained of what we millennials find entertaining or fascinating now we are doing the same thing for the Gen-Z criteria of things.

I feel the same as Vube and futbol but awareness has to be spread on why we feel this way as things were simpler when we were younger and the mind has the ability to glorify the past let alone childhood.

Ennui is real and I am willing to debate the ones above on this for I love you all and will never consider it a waste of time.
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Post by Thimmy Tue Feb 28, 2023 2:14 pm

Arquitecto wrote:Honestly we all will tend to glorify our favourite times of football. For me being early to mid 2000s. It's a subjective reality that will fly over ones head due to that.

Fact is the sport is just going through a generational transition so yes some eras are stronger than others but I cannot agree that football is over for if anything its the political involvement and reductionist tactics that have taken the spark away from some aspects. But for every shortcoming of the current era a new and better player and system will reveal itself to be a blessing to the game.


It's definitely true that people tend to glorify their favorite eras of football, but like Futbol kind of alludes to, I feel like the social media age has had a negative impact on the sport as well. Not only has it been a key element in involving politics into the game, but I think, and I'm only speculating based on personal observation here, that it tends to cause people to become very streamlined and lacking in distinction or originality.

One example of this is how the up and coming generations view music these days. My own two sisters listen to a lot of pop music, mostly artists that they've picked up through social media. And they can barely name any of the artists they listen to. It's not important to them. It's just good music that other people also like, which makes it cool to like it. That view seems to be reflected in a lot of teenagers here, at least. It may seem like such a trivial thing, but things like artist names and music genres used to matter in terms of expressing one's musical identity or individuality. That's becoming old fashioned.

I don't know about you guys, but when I went to school as a kid, my contemporaries had distinctive tastes in everything from music to movies and video games. And I'm sure that's still the case to some extent, but the influence of social media has definitely been pulling a lot more people in the same direction, and it think it's taken away from peoples' ability to express individuality to a greater extent than in the past.

Of course, I'm not solely blaming social media on football becoming stale in the eyes of some people, and I'm only speculating, but I have no doubt in my mind that it has brought with it a new set of standards and expectations that a lot of people follow both consciously and subconsciously. And this has opened up a lot of opportunities for advertisement, marketing and political activism, but it's also increased the social pressure to conform to global norms.

And I honestly think that's something the majority of us are onboard with, regardless of whether or not we appreciate it at the end of the day. An example of this is how we worship players who resemble past greats, even if they aren't as talented. A lot of fans are waiting for "the next X", and journalists are feeding into that hype as it generates a lot of views. I think a greater emphasis on uniqueness and branching out from the old concept of how football should be played would breathe new life into the game. That's basically the generational transition that Arq mentions. But right now, no one's asking for it. Most people would rather wait in anticipation for the new Messi, the Ronaldos.. other players of the past.
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Post by El Gunner Tue Feb 28, 2023 2:27 pm

Arquitecto wrote:Honestly we all will tend to glorify our favourite times of football. For me being early to mid 2000s. It's a subjective reality that will fly over ones head due to that.

Fact is the sport is just going through a generational transition so yes some eras are stronger than others but I cannot agree that football is over for if anything its the political involvement and reductionist tactics that have taken the spark away from some aspects. But for every shortcoming of the current era a new and better player and system will reveal itself to be a blessing to the game.

factos
Art Morte wrote:I do think the ceiling has lowered a bit. Meaning that there are fewer exciting, world-class players. I put this down to kids having more options to do in their free-time, so they don't spend as many hours playing football (or sports in general).

On the other hand the floor has also risen. There's better training and coaching at all levels and ages. The bang-average player in most leagues is probably better than his counterpart from 20 years ago.

Also possible that I'm way off the mark with these assumptions.

factos
futbol wrote:Yeah, but what hasn't declined? Movies, music, games, cars, fashion. Everything is dull, generic, repetitive, mass produced, boring and worse compares to 20 years ago.

games have improved
Also, i'd much rather wear well-fitted shirts and jeans than the baggy clothes of the early 2000s Laughing i cringe thinking back on some of the baggy things i used to wear
also we now have a wide variety of sneakers and sweaters and sweatsuits and hoodies to choose from than before.
So yea i would say fashion and games have improved.

Pop music has definitely gotten worse. But electronic house music is at its best these days with different varieties of Afrobeats, South African amapiano and South American riddim influences becoming more mainstream. Conscious hip hop is still good here and there in pockets if you know the right artists to listen to.

While i agree movies have definitely gotten worse in general, there are still a few gems that pop up every year. The best movies these days are well-executed satires, smart horrors and thriller/psychological sci-fis.
However television has definitely improved, from early 2000s to mid 2010s from Sopranos to Mad Men, Breaking Bad to Game of Thrones and Mr. Robot. There's some good television shows out there too that might just not be as popular as the before-mentioned. TV has basically become what the mid-budget Hollywood film used to be in the 90s and 00s before the MCU hurricaned the entire Hollywood program.


Last edited by El Gunner on Tue Feb 28, 2023 2:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Harmonica Tue Feb 28, 2023 2:32 pm

Pedram wrote:
futbol wrote:Yeah, but what hasn't declined? Movies, music, games, cars, fashion. Everything is dull, generic, repetitive, mass produced, boring and worse compares to 20 years ago.

Games have gotten better, nobody used to take them seriously as a medium.
Games haven't improved, only graphics have. Meantime we got streamlining, scripted gameplay, loot chest, paid skins and woke content. Don't take popularity as quality. Anything can be popular if enough money is poured in it. Good thing is that you can nowadays mod old games to more modern graphics, and for additional content. I would say that only MSFS2020 is objectively better than the predecessors in every way and that's already 3 years old, what else?
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Post by El Gunner Tue Feb 28, 2023 2:48 pm

also go back and watch the average early 00s game now, you'll be bored to death from the quality of the average player and the style of play. The average game today is more fast-paced and electric. The only thing that made that time so great as Vibe said were the maestroes. Otherwise we only reflect back on those times with rose-tinted glasses because we were caught up in the narratives of the moment, the banter with our schoolmates, trying to emulate our favourite stars on the playground. It's mostly perception and nostalgia than anything else.
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Post by Harmonica Tue Feb 28, 2023 3:13 pm

Just played Gothic 2, and it's still the best vanilla 3D rpg ever made. And that's 2002 game. PB never bettered it even though ELEX became close. Only TES/FO, KCD and W3 has been in the same ball park since. And KCD is now the freshest being 5 years old. TES never revolutionized either, Daggerfall was the most vast, Morrowind made it 3D but lost a lot of scope, Oblivion brought physics but made everything more generic, and Skyrim brought the best sandbox, but also was then streamlined and shallow without mods.

The problem with games is the same as everything else. Once gaming company becomes public, money matters the most, and that's always a loss for gaming.
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Post by Warrior Tue Feb 28, 2023 3:22 pm

The game itself has improved but the folklore surrounding football is not as interesting as it was in the 2000s. Used to be men playing football nowadays it's boys playing football.

As for futbol's comment, i agree, seems like culture got into a dead end where everything good has already been done. Quality original content is hard to find for mainstream guys like me. I suppose if you dig into an interest you can still find golden nuggets
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Post by Warrior Tue Feb 28, 2023 3:25 pm

Football is definitely not over

But for me football is complete since Messi won the world cup. Whatever happens next is not really important except Juve of course.
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Post by futbol Tue Feb 28, 2023 3:59 pm

Vibe wrote:
futbol wrote:Yeah, but what hasn't declined? Movies, music, games, cars, fashion. Everything is dull, generic, repetitive, mass produced, boring and worse compares to 20 years ago.


I feel the same. But is it really just our perception of things? You only see through the eyes of a child once, then the rest is just more shit you've already seen piling up.

Arquitecto wrote:
futbol wrote:Yeah, but what hasn't declined? Movies, music, games, cars, fashion. Everything is dull, generic, repetitive, mass produced, boring and worse compares to 20 years ago.


I used to think along these lines in my early 20s but the fact is we are growing older thus not accepted changes in certain status-quos. The generation that are enjoying the current things for instance will complain similarly to the next generation of assortments in this fashion.

I thought about this. I'm fully aware of the "everything was better in the past" cliché. I don't think it means it can't be valid regardless of it being a cliché.

Take heavyweight boxing as an example. In the 90s it was a huge deal to wake up at 4 AM in Europe to watch Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield, Lennox Lewis or George Foreman live on Pay TV. Everyone would talk about it. It felt like a football World Cup final. Would anyone doubt that heavyweight boxing is dead nowadays? That isn't just "taste" or "perception" but an undeniable fact. Heavyweight boxing at that level does not exist anymore.

Music, games, fashion etc. are maybe more subjective and about taste but even then look at the larger than life 90s and 00s movies like Matrix, Goodfellas, Heat, Forrest Gump, Shawshank Redemption, Saving Private Ryan, Schindler's List, Fight Club, Terminator, Silence of the Lambs, Pulp Fiction, The Green Mile, Lion's King etc. that everyone knows and agrees on decades later.

What movie in modern times even compares to those? I watched modern acclaimed movies like Three Billboards Outside Ebbing Missouri, Shape of Water or Green Book. 2 - 3 years later I barely remember those movies. Maybe they were good (I think I liked them all) but memorable beyond decades, to be named among the best 20 years later? Hell no. Maybe Parasite deserves to be up there from modern time movies and that's about all I can think of.

Music? Let's not get started. Artists like Madonna, Michael Jackson, Celine Dion, groups like Nirvana, the golden times of Hip Hop in the 90s. Now we got what? Tones and I, Dua Lipa and Kodak Black, generic 18 year olds like Harry Styles and Shawn Mendes that I can barely differentiate because they sound all the same?

I mean, this is not just me reminiscing of the past with my weird opinions? Every tier list that you can find from anyone on Google would agree and the numbers of artists or movies from the past 15 years would be nonexistent whereas 80s, 90s and beginning of 00s would be the golden era of almost everything.

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Post by Myesyats Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:10 pm

This thread should come with a big boomer alert warning
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Post by Thimmy Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:14 pm

I'm a milennial.. and it looks like you're about the age my great grandfather was when he passed away hmm

Technology and production quality have definitely gone up across the board, but I do think creativity and originality have gone down. Boomers and beyond would complain about things being too new and different, that's definitely not the case nowadays.
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Post by Casciavit Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:38 pm

The average footballer now is much better than the average footballer 10 years ago let alone 20 years ago. Just look at the WC and how each team was defending like prime Atletico. Tactics and compactness have evolved a lot since 2009/2010. You don't even have to go to the 80s to compare, just watch a match from the 2006 World Cup and see how much space and individual defending takes place versus what you saw in 2022 WC. It feels like a different sport.

That being said I think the high level players are less talented than they were before. The top coaches pretty much use joysticks with their teams now. Everything is so rehearsed. Players repeat the same patterns and movements thousands of times in training. If you don't receive the ball in a specific way and you don't occupy specific spaces you get benched. Pep's emphasis on positional play completely changed football.

You're seeing it bleed into the youth systems too. U15 teams are playing zonal football like it's Man City. It's completely stripped freedom and expression away from the players in favour of the system. There's a reason Ferguson's disciples have been shit coaches while Pep's disciples are leading big teams like Arsenal, Barca, and Bayern.

Football tactics used to be about basic defensive organization and giving attacking players freedom to express themselves. That's what Neville, Giggs, Rooney, and others grew up on. Now it's about having high-level organization in every phase of play. You actually have to pass on tactical and technical principles and can't get away with being a motivational merchant anymore.

It's amusing because I don't think hyper systematic football is the answer either because Madrid don't play that way and they've been the most dominant team in the CL in the last decade. Then again very few teams have their individual quality, and the freedom they give their players is helpful during stressful CL matches, but reduces consistency in the league. That's probably why they only won 4 league titles in the last 15 years.
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Post by Casciavit Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:44 pm

Juanma Lillo is the one who inspired that kind of football, and even he's regretted it. He wrote an article in the athletic about it. I'll paste it here when I get the chance.
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Post by sportsczy Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:26 pm

Football is actually getting better imo. Football governance (leagues, UEFA, FIFA, etc.) is getting much worse... which is the crux of the problem.

All the talent is concentrated in very few teams.
Too many games each season.
Incredible corruption.

At some point, players need to unionize. I generally think unions suck... but in this case, it's necessary.
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Post by El Gunner Tue Feb 28, 2023 6:12 pm

@futbol how you look at Madonna, Celion Dion and Michael Jackson is how kids of today look at Rihanna, Drake and Kanye West. It's a generational thing, simple.
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Post by Myesyats Tue Feb 28, 2023 6:14 pm

Thimmy wrote:I'm a milennial.. and it looks like you're about the age my great grandfather was when he passed away hmm

Technology and production quality have definitely gone up across the board, but I do think creativity and originality have gone down. Boomers and beyond would complain about things being too new and different, that's definitely not the case nowadays.

Meh imo it's all a matter of preference but obviously there's only so many love songs and coming of age movies you can make before it starts being painfully repetitive

Fashion has definitely improved overall and I have no idea how you can claim otherwise...I dread thinking about all these awful baggy clothes, hideous colorways and bell bottoms

Movie industry may be struggling but we have a golden age of TV series, especially the 2010s whereas there are very few notable TV series from the 80s/90s apart from animated ones

Music is now more commercialized and feels copy+paste for sure, but if you look outside of the pop stuff there's plenty of creative and inventive authors, but then again for boomers computer generated sounds aren't "real music".

The example of boxing is true, but on the flip side, nowadays we have the golden age of UFC/MMA and plenty of people woke up at 4am to watch it in our time zone

Now when it comes to football, the lore when we were falling in love with the sport was definitely superior to modern social media playboyism, which... isnt as enchanting. But the quality of football and tactical warfare is still great. And what Cas said, high level players are less talented, there's more of just "clogs in the machine" type of players. And obviously the obscene amounts of money which makes everything feel more superficial. Players are mercenaries and dont care for the club, it's a rarity when they genuinely do
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Post by El Gunner Tue Feb 28, 2023 6:17 pm

don't forget about the kids getting up at 4am to watch YouTube celebrities boxing it out for huge sums of money Laughing times have really changed
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Post by Thimmy Tue Feb 28, 2023 6:41 pm

Myesyats wrote:
Thimmy wrote:I'm a milennial.. and it looks like you're about the age my great grandfather was when he passed away hmm

Technology and production quality have definitely gone up across the board, but I do think creativity and originality have gone down. Boomers and beyond would complain about things being too new and different, that's definitely not the case nowadays.

Meh imo it's all a matter of preference but obviously there's only so many love songs and coming of age movies you can make before it starts being painfully repetitive

Fashion has definitely improved overall and I have no idea how you can claim otherwise...I dread thinking about all these awful baggy clothes, hideous colorways and bell bottoms

Movie industry may be struggling but we have a golden age of TV series, especially the 2010s whereas there are very few notable TV series from the 80s/90s apart from animated ones

Music is now more commercialized and feels copy+paste for sure, but if you look outside of the pop stuff there's plenty of creative and inventive authors, but then again for boomers computer generated sounds aren't "real music".

The example of boxing is true, but on the flip side, nowadays we have the golden age of UFC/MMA and plenty of people woke up at 4am to watch it in our time zone

Now when it comes to football, the lore when we were falling in love with the sport was definitely superior to modern social media playboyism, which... isnt as enchanting. But the quality of football and tactical warfare is still great. And what Cas said, high level players are less talented, there's more of  just "clogs in the machine" type of players. And obviously the obscene amounts of money which makes everything feel more superficial. Players are mercenaries and dont care for the club, it's a rarity when they genuinely do


I think you're replying to the wrong person. I've never been a follower of boxing. I absolutely agree that fashion has improved. Sometimes, simplicity is better Laughing

- I do remember Mike Tyson vs Holyfield, though. I didn't watch the match, I wasn't old enough to watch it, but it was HUGE at the time.
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