Merging men's football and women's football

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Post by futbol Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:49 pm

Or not just football but sports in general. Why not? Why is sports not only seperated by gender but the seperation is actually accepted? Now people will say: "Women are physically inferior, would be unfair." So what? Iniesta is also physically inferior to Ibrahimovic by a distance. He has to deal with it. Pedro weighs 62 kg (137 pounds) and is 167 cm (5.5 ft.) according to the Internet. Abby Wambach weighs 81 kg (178 pounds) and is 180 cm (5.11 ft.) according to the Internet. Particularly in football physicality doesn't matter that much anyway.

The difference in quality is huge right now of course but that's hardly because of the physicality aspect. It's because millions of boys want to become footballers as children but only a handful of girls do, so the talent pool is lopsided. But if there was no difference and girls wouldn't be like: "Meh, football is for boys, I'd rather become a ballerina", because that's what they see on TV and if girls would show the same amount of interest in the sport, I'm convinced women would become about as good as men. I don't believe that women by nature, if not physically, at least technically couldn't be superior than a lot of men who play the game right now.

Discuss.

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Post by Curtinho Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:15 pm

Biology disagrees. It's not an insult, but women from chemical composition to musculature and brain function are not as physically capable as men of a similar size, build and level of training. It's just a fact.
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Post by jibers Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:24 pm

You can't be serious...

inb4 Sepi
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Post by Rebaño Sagrado Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:25 pm

Nope
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Post by titosantill Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:26 pm

are you really serious right now? there's more to it than whether they can or cannot play. i can understand as a pass-time or rec-activity, but not professional. its not necessary to 'liberalize' everything. there are biological differences, as well as professional. in the heat of the moment, iniesta can execute a double legged tackle on zlatan...i'm not sure if he can do the same to (insert female footballer's name here). i'm okay with female refs, coaching staff and all that....but some things are best left as they are.

i don't watch women's football, i might catch highlights here and there but i don't follow it, and don't want to be forced to watch them play. i want to see solid defenders play, there is an avenue for women's football and its good as is....what will be next after this? there should be no gender separation in boxing or mma?
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Post by RealGunner Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:33 pm

There are far too many factors which won't make this possible.

Same in any major sports.

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Post by LeBéninois Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:36 pm

RealGunner wrote:There are far too many factors which won't make this possible.

Same in any major sports.

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:44 pm

I think some women might be able to, like prime Marta, to play in men's leagues. But I think they would be in the vast minority.

Segregating by gender makes sense as the difference in physical ability is quite important.
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Post by futbol Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:03 pm

Curtinho wrote:Biology disagrees. It's not an insult, but women from chemical composition to musculature and brain function are not as physically capable as men of a similar size, build and level of training. It's just a fact.


Completely besides the point. David Vaughan (random Nottingham player) and Messi are aeons apart in "capability" in every aspect of the sport even with similar level of training. So?

Statistically the average woman might be less capable than the average man just like statistically the average Macedonian is less capable than the average Brazilian in football. But if there are women, even if statistically less, who are better than their male counterparts, why shouldn't they play if they perform? And if they aren't good enough - fine, then they'll play in the 2nd division. Or 3th division. But why seperate it by gender and not purely by performance? You know, like in any other field of life.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

Segregating by gender makes sense as  the difference in physical ability is quite important.


Makes no sense whatsoever tbh. If physicality is the key factor then there should be seperation by physicality, not gender.

I'd like to hear logical reasoning against mixed sports that isn't based on the arguments:

"Because that's how it is right now."
"Men are biologically more capable and that's a fact." (Why don't you argue like that in any other field? No female judges, no female scientists, no female pilots working alongside their male counterparts? Because that already exists and is the social norm?)

I'm not asking for a forced women quota by the way.


Last edited by futbol on Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Unique Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:10 pm

futbol wrote:Or not just football but sports in general. Why not? Why is sports not only seperated by gender but the seperation is actually accepted? Now people will say: "Women are physically inferior, would be unfair." So what? Iniesta is also physically inferior to Ibrahimovic by a distance. He has to deal with it. Pedro weighs 62 kg (137 pounds) and is 167 cm (5.5 ft.) according to the Internet. Abby Wambach weighs 81 kg (178 pounds) and is 180 cm (5.11 ft.) according to the Internet. Particularly in football physicality doesn't matter that much anyway.

The difference in quality is huge right now of course but that's hardly because of the physicality aspect. It's because millions of boys want to become footballers as children but only a handful of girls do, so the talent pool is lopsided. But if there was no difference and girls wouldn't be like: "Meh, football is for boys, I'd rather become a ballerina", because that's what they see on TV and if girls would show the same amount of interest in the sport, I'm convinced women would become about as good as men. I don't believe that women by nature, if not physically, at least technically couldn't be superior than a lot of men who play the game right now.

Discuss.
what would happen if a woman got the same treatment as cavani got with the finger up the bum. eco smile
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:13 pm

Because the research shows quite conclusively that men are stronger, have better endurance, are faster, etc? We're talking about athletics, not chess. You need to be able to have both athletism and skill to survive in professional football, and while there are cases like say Montolivo who are quite frail but managed to survive on skill alone.

Like I said, I think some women could. The option should be available to them. But I would still have a female only league available, because most of them would not be able to make it at the "men's + some women" leagues.
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Post by Donuts Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:15 pm

would sure be interesting to see the general reaction to pepe stomping on a poor girl and destroying her.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:16 pm

Donuts wrote:would sure be interesting to see the general reaction to pepe stomping on a poor girl and destroying her.


Laughing

One of the many reasons why this is just impossible.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:16 pm

futbol :bow:
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Post by futbol Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:28 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Because the research shows quite conclusively that men are stronger, have better endurance, are faster, etc? We're talking about athletics, not chess. You need to be able to have both athletism and skill to survive in professional football, and while there are cases like say Montolivo who are quite frail but managed to survive on skill alone.

Like I said, I think some women could. The option should be available to them. But I would still have a female only league available, because most of them would not be able to make it at the "men's + some women" leagues.

Researches also show that Europeans have a vastly higher IQ than Africans. No jobs for Africans in science and research then?

Why does a statistical average matter? The average woman being slower and weaker doesn't mean there aren't women who are faster and stronger than men.

You guys keep on banging about "biological difference". Meanwhile Zlatan is twice the size of Verratti and Walcott is thrice as fast as Alonso. Every individual is genetically different. Laughing

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Post by Kaladin Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:38 pm

Too many sociocultural issues imo, from training to sharing rooms to locker rooms etc. Can't see all male players in the dressing room respecting her as another player, guys like Balo/KPB/Costa might try to make move on her, might throw a little nudge about her 'weak shot', putting females in the crossfire basically
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Post by Donuts Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:39 pm

merging the two would only hurt the women.
women's football now has a chance to grow in terms of revenue, combining the two just puts some if any women in division 2 teams limiting them unless we have a women messi who even then probably wont even make it to a top team.
hurting overall the whole gender and rewarding very few women.

and that's just one issue with the sport
put a 6'4 women next to ibra, and ibra most likely would be stronger. height is irrelevant it's a matter of science and facts.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:41 pm

El Shaarawy wrote:Too many sociocultural issues imo, from training to sharing rooms to locker rooms etc. Can't see all male players in the dressing room respecting her as another player, guys like Balo/KPB/Costa might try to make move on her, might throw a little nudge about her 'weak shot', putting females in the crossfire basically


Was gonna mention this, not everyone isn't an asshole sadly Laughing

There's more issues than just the genetic ones, it's just impossible.

Stahp crusading Futbol pls.
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Post by rwo power Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:21 pm

You don't mix men's athletics and women's athletics, either. You only need to look at the maximum speed men and women reach - so you could expect that women will usually be slower.

You might also look at the biology thing - men usually have a higher percentage of muscle tissue (okay, I won't talk about male couch potato versus female athlete), and there are certain differences in the static bone structure, too. (On the other hand, men would get into reall trouble to get a baby through their pelvis architecture, even if someone would transplant a guy an uterus). So there are indeed certain design differences that affect the performance.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:22 am

futbol wrote:Researches also show that Europeans have a vastly higher IQ than Africans. No jobs for Africans in science and research then?


That's not at all analogous and you know it.
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Post by futbol Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:34 am

rwo power wrote:You don't mix men's athletics and women's athletics, either. You only need to look at the maximum speed men and women reach - so you could expect that women will usually be slower.

Which is also stupid if you think about it. The top 100 m runners or marathon runners are dominated by black guys. They evidently trump white guys. No white guy has a chance to win the Olympic gold medal in 100 m sprinting. It's as much of a biological fact that black guys are superior to white guys in certain athletic aspects as men in general are superior to women. Never heard of seperating white runners from black runners though in the civilized world. If someone ever suggested it, he'd be deemed a racist. With women the exact same argument becomes not only acceptable but justification for the seperation. Seems a social more than a logical phenomenon. Athletics should be mixed. And if women are worse and won't get any medals in their own group so be it. White men don't have their own tournament either where they give themselves gold medals, do they?

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Post by futbol Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:36 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
futbol wrote:Researches also show that Europeans have a vastly higher IQ than Africans. No jobs for Africans in science and research then?


That's not at all analogous and you know it.


My mistake. The appropriate analogy would be that Africans shouldn't get jobs in science and research in Europe among the statistically higher IQ Europeans and do their own science in their own African groups instead.

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Post by Unique Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:39 am

futbol wrote:
rwo power wrote:You don't mix men's athletics and women's athletics, either. You only need to look at the maximum speed men and women reach - so you could expect that women will usually be slower.

Which is also stupid if you think about it. The top 100 m runners or marathon runners are dominated by black guys. They evidently trump white guys. No white guy has a chance to win the Olympic gold medal in 100 m sprinting. It's as much of a biological fact that black guys are superior to white guys in certain athletic aspects as men in general are superior to women. Never heard of seperating white runners from black runners though in the civilized world. If someone ever suggested it, he'd be deemed a racist. With women the exact same argument becomes not only acceptable but justification for the seperation. Seems a social more than a logical phenomenon. Athletics should be mixed. And if women are worse and won't get any medals in their own group so be it. White men don't have their own tournament either where they give themselves gold medals, do they?
that's true what your saying. white men cant run. black men cant swim. cheers
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Post by rwo power Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:45 am

@futbol

I don't think the intelligence discussion is appropriate here, especially in the view that current findings show that genetics are still far less understood than people thought when the above studies were conducted. (That is, the influence of epigenetics that is much connected with environmental and other influences hasn't been taken into account at all.) So it is a bit daring to compare such studies with things like motoric physiology which is much better understood.

@futbol

Oh, you are right, we should encourage men to carry babies, too, as they are humans as well. Some things are simply not mixable due to obvious physical differences.
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Post by futbol Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:50 am

Donuts wrote:merging the two would only hurt the women.
women's football now has a chance to grow in terms of revenue, combining the two just puts some if any women in division 2 teams limiting them unless we have a women messi who even then probably wont even make it to a top team.
hurting overall the whole gender and rewarding very few women.

and that's just one issue with the sport
put a 6'4 women next to ibra, and ibra most likely would be stronger. height is irrelevant it's a matter of science and facts.

The opposite. No one takes women's football seriously right now. It's a niche sport. Because it's a niche sport it's accepted and established as a men's sport. Because it's a men's sport, little girls don't have interest in becoming footballers because only men are famous for playing it. And because little girls don't have as much interest as boys, the amount of girls trying to become professional footballers is minimal compared to boys. Which is why men's football has a huge talent pool and is professional and women's football is amateurish and a niche sport in comparison.

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