Match Day Thread 21-22

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Post by halamadrid2 Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:32 pm

Laughing

Who's left?

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Post by Myesyats Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:40 pm

Luuk De Jong
Memphis Depay
Yusuf Demir

+Coutinho, but he's not really a forward I suppose.


I expect 3-5-2 formation vs Bayern


Ansu should be back within 1-2 weeks. Dembele and Aguero expected to return in late October IIRC
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Post by halamadrid2 Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:07 pm

Wasn't it rumoured that Fati had a set back or something. Oh and that frontline is depressing even for a rival fan
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Post by alexjanosik Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:04 pm

Worrying frontline. Not that Braithwaite offered much. Midfield has to step up and score goals. Likes of FDJ, Roberto and even Pedri have to share the goalscoring burden.

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Post by alexjanosik Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:05 pm

Maybe even Collado. Not sure what his status is currently. Is he even registered. But he has a knack for goals. So should get a chance.

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Post by Myesyats Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:58 pm

@halamadrid2 wrote:Wasn't it rumoured that Fati had a set back or something. Oh and that frontline is depressing even for a rival fan

Nah, Ansu is right on schedule. They're just being cautious with him. Definitely not gonna play vs Bayern, too big of a load.

But he's been training with the squad for some time already
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Post by The Franchise Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:23 pm

Doesnt change anything really for me. Braithwaite was about to become obsolete when Fati returns.

For now, I would prefer Coutinho, Depay and Demir/Collado as the front 3. De Jong off the bench with Depay playing wide.

Coutinho is more forward than he is a midfielder, especially if not forced to stick rigidly to the wide zones. Which will not be the case given the flexibility of Depay.

But I think the prediction 532 of Garcia/Mingueza with Dest on the right of the back 5 and De Jong and Depay up front is more likely.
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Post by Cruijf Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:54 pm

@alex, what were you saying about no more CL embarrassments? Matchday 1 and you've already lost 0-3 at home Laughing
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Post by BarcaLearning Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:57 pm

Yea I want explanations, no more Messi and half the field we had youngsters, hence we should have had the teamwork and tactics right, u know, everyone pressing etc.?
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Post by Casciavit Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:58 pm

@alexjanosik wrote:Not willing to out your foot where your mouth is as I thought.
I repeat. We will instantly become more competitive in the CL once we get rid of him. Easily through to the knockouts and no more humiliations. At most going out by 1 goal. And the team he goes to (City or PSG) will be much worse. City wont win the PL with him and the likes of Gundogan, KDB et all will look like pub players.
Willing to bet hotshot?

Nice start to becoming instantly more competitive in the CL once you get rid of him.
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Post by danyjr Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:02 pm

rofl

The thing is I knew this day was coming as soon as I saw him post that Laughing
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Post by Myesyats Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:08 pm

:facepalm:
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Post by Casciavit Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:08 pm

He'll find a roundabout way to blame him for this loss too lol.
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Post by Mamad Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:35 pm

I have never seen Barca this toothless. that Bartomeu guy should be kicked out of the city. worst club managing i have ever seen.
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Post by Myesyats Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:47 am

@alexjanosik wrote:Likes of FDJ, Roberto and even Pedri have to share the goalscoring burden.

I mean this says it all

They've never been goalscoring midfielders so what makes you think they'd suddenly assume that huge of a burden after Messi's departure? They don't all suddenly start scoring longshots a la prime Ronaldo



Too much deadweight in this team. Luuk, Pique, Alba, Busquets and Roberto shouldnt have a starting spot as of today.

I would rather see more of Gavi, A.Balde, even Nico, and obviously Demir.

I thought Koeman should have been sacked after his La Liga finish last season but I understand that Laporta has his hands pretty much tied at this moment in time
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Post by Myesyats Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:09 am

But then again I remember our 2015 games versus Bayern in CL and that team wasnt so athletic either. A bunch of the same/similar players; Pique, Alba, Busquets, Rakitic, old Alves.

I guess having MSN gave us the ability to counter quickly and aggressively, but even then apart from the front three it was the same snails, very slow etc etc.

What was Lucho feeding them? Was Lucho the last coach to actually properly prepare the physical aspect of the game in training? There's no doubt that the 3 stooges that followed him were failures; Valverde, Setien and Koeman are about the worst managers I can imagine that a top team could hire.
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Post by The Franchise Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:37 am

Sackable performance from Koeman. Deplorable use of the squad and a gameplan destined for failure.

I mean, 532 with a mid to low block, almost no high pressure and playing primarily on the counter attack is just not the Barca way.

Tactically, you cannot be pragmatic against Bayern and expect to keep them out. Especially not with the players we have. You have to be proactive, sitting back is just asking to be killed the same as being too open, just as a slower death.

Even if it was a plan that could work in theory, it was executed completely wrong. De Jong is simply far too slow and up against Sule, he did not have the power and size advantage either. Upamecano is physically too good for Memphis also. So Bayern could play 2v2 at the back with no issue. De Jong and Memphis took turns dropping in between the lines, but Bayern easily adjusted using their midfield 2-3 and the fullbacks jumping when needed.

Because it was literally 5 at the back, our 3 midfielders have to cover the entire width. All Bayern had to do was bring Kimmich deep, force Pedri out, play on the side and there was nothing we could do because obviously 2 players cannot cover the center and both wings.

Bayern front 5 easily pinning our back 5, they can take turns rotating players deep and finding space to turn.

Just a tactical domination, clearly we were far inferior. I could go on for paragraphs at why this was such a huge tactical difference. Koeman is out of his depth at that level, there can be no doubt about it.

We would have lost no matter how or what we did, but this was possibly the worst way we could go given what we had.

On individuals. We have seen this story before. Roberto is not at this level. The only difference between him and a high level amateur player is he trains every day with top quality players in top quality facilities for almost 3 decades and amateurs do not.

De Jong immediately coming in and starting just isnt acceptable. I dont care who is missing, what has De Jong ever done to warrant this deference?


Anyway, moving forward I want to see 433 with;

Mingueza Araujo Pique Balde
 Gavi De Jong Pedri
Demir Memphis Coutinho
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Post by Myesyats Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:55 am

Agreed. And this should have been the lineup last night. Alba reportedly had hamstring issues + stomach problems on top of that.

Luuk had no business starting (didnt play any preseason games), hes a newcomer and Koeman's dutch bias came out right there.

Balde seems even faster than Alba maybe and a better dribbler.

Busquets is out of depth at this level of intensity and its a systemic failure that he hasnt been replaced for years.


We were toothless in attack but with this tactical setup and Aguero, Ansu, Dembele missing that was a given.
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Post by The Franchise Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:15 pm

Balde looked very good, as he did every time I have seen him. Like any young player, he can be a little too optimistic in his decisions but overall you would not imagine he is only 18.

If Gavi can get minutes in midfield, no reason Balde cannot get at the back. Should be rotated with Alba, even if fully fit, let alone when not fit to play.

Busi struggled badly. I dont understand why we dont understand he cannot cover large spaces. Asking him to shift is asking for trouble. Because they were so easily able pin us in our half, whenever we did win the ball, they could immediately counter press and because he had so few forward passing options he got caught.

I have been against De Jong playing his position, but Gavi is more ready than I imagined and so until Nico can play the pivot full time or we sign someone, De Jong needs to be rotated in there.

My issue is, we need to learn from this. Bayern are superior and we had players missing, okay cool. But now what?

Are we going to play Madrid and Atleti with this same passive 532 or we will learn anything and adjust?

Bayern let off, but there is no doubt we were far better with 433 and Coutinho, Demir, Gavi, Mingeza and Demir than L.De Jong, Busi, Roberto and Alba.

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Post by danyjr Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:43 pm

I don't agree with Depay playing as CF. We saw him often last night that he can't play with his back to the goal, he is dispossessed too easily. I think De Jong was a better option on paper. He is a low grade CF but at least he is a CF.

I understand Barcelona fans' ego is hurt but you must lower your expectations for a couple of seasons minimum. Demir? Haven't seen anything worthy of mention from a guy. Left footed and unfortunately left-headed in the way that he doesn't really see to his right. Doesn't look up. Physically weak.

Can understand the criticism of Busquets in defensive transitions but in build up he was your best player. Hardly put a foot wrong while having the ball. The system isn't built around his strengths and his weaknesses are exaggerated as a result.

Araújo was fantastic I thought, I start to agree that he is very good 1v1. It is not easy playing against Sané the way he was but he had the German in his pocket.
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Post by Casciavit Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:11 pm

I said this in the general section, but to me this performance was no different to the one in 2020 in the grand scheme of things.

Yeah there was a difference in scoreline, but considering Bayern played at a training pace for half the game and weren't efficient Barca was let off in a lot of ways.

It's the same story as 2020. Passive, reactive football with unathletic players who aren't used to playing on the back foot combined with no outlets. There was just no dynamism and you didn't have the quality to go toe to toe. Back in the other beatings you were playing a 4-4-2 with the double right back tactic of Sergi and Semedo with De Jong or Vidal playing on the left lmfao. This time around it was a 5-3-2. Different systems but same issues persisted.

I honestly wonder how bad it would've got if Lenglet started ahead of Araujo and it was Garcia playing RCB not Araujo. He wouldn't have been able to match Sané physically there. Lenglet also wouldn't have been able to body Lewandowski in the way Araujo did.

Players looked up and they tried to play through the middle to Depay like he was Messi. Although given the circumstances I don't think Depay was that bad, but even when you had Messi you were still getting decimated playing that kind of way. You looked much better when the kids came on and you switched to 4-3-3.

I'm sure Fati and Dembele will be starting on the wings once they're back from injury so the team dynamic should instantly improve in big games. However, they both have their own injury problems and Dembele plays like a dumbass at times so they have their own problems too. The old guard who was part of the beatings are still there. When it comes down to it I think you'll still end up playing a combination of Sergi, Pique, Lenglet, and Alba in defense in big games. One of your wingers will probably be injured in big games and you'll have to rely on Memphis and Aguero instead. Aguero is always injured so expect Luuk De Jong to be starting more than you think. Koeman is a shit tactician which was obvious back in November 2020, so it's not like he'll be able to fix anything from a tactical POV.

He'll play kids in big games while getting heavily beat to take attention away from his own mishaps. It's straight from the Ole playbook. He'll then talk about in interviews how this isn't Barca from a decade ago and fans have to be humble and you should thank him. He's not wrong, but I don't think he's the guy to get you through this period either.

Truthfully I'm not sure who is. Barca's broke so they can't really do a big squad clear out in terms of investing in new players. So it's definitely a hard task for Laporta and co.
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Post by The Franchise Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:20 pm



@danyjr wrote:I don't agree with Depay playing as CF. We saw him often last night that he can't play with his back to the goal, he is dispossessed too easily. I think De Jong was a better option on paper. He is a low grade CF but at least he is a CF.

I understand Barcelona fans' ego is hurt but you must lower your expectations for a couple of seasons minimum. Demir? Haven't seen anything worthy of mention from a guy. Left footed and unfortunately left-headed in the way that he doesn't really see to his right. Doesn't look up. Physically weak.

Can understand the criticism of Busquets in defensive transitions but in build up he was your best player. Hardly put a foot wrong while having the ball. The system isn't built around his strengths and his weaknesses are exaggerated as a result.

Araújo was fantastic I thought, I start to agree that he is very good 1v1. It is not easy playing against Sané the way he was but he had the German in his pocket.


Who has high expecations which need to be lowered? Laughing

Anyway, Demir is the only right sided player we have, other than Collado. Until Dembele comes back anyway.

So, yes it makes sense to me to get him minutes in this position. He clearly has talent, perhaps you do not see it yet?

It doesnt make sense playing Memphis there, first of all its awkward because he cant come inside and more importantly he cant be given the responsibility to get back behind the ball as part of the second line. It will again transform us into a 442.

He isnt going to play on the left, we have too many other options on that side.

So, Demir absolutely makes sense on the right as does Memphis up front.

De Jong is a 20 minute, box player with some physical qualities the others dont have. But thats it, not a starter and no future either.
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Post by Casciavit Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:26 pm

@Myesyats wrote:But then again I remember our 2015 games versus Bayern in CL and that team wasnt so athletic either. A bunch of the same/similar players; Pique, Alba, Busquets, Rakitic, old Alves.

I guess having MSN gave us the ability to counter quickly and aggressively, but even then apart from the front three it was the same snails, very slow etc etc.

What was Lucho feeding them? Was Lucho the last coach to actually properly prepare the physical aspect of the game in training? There's no doubt that the 3 stooges that followed him were failures; Valverde, Setien and Koeman are about the worst managers I can imagine that a top team could hire.

I could've sworn I read an interview from Xavi around the time Valverde joined where he brought up how Lucho was the first coach to make them do long distance physical work. The ones before him focused mainly on positional play and short distance running. I remember Xavi saying that the long distance running didn't suit Iniesta but Barca had to do it because of MSN. He said with Valverde coming back they'll revert more to the short distance training instead.

Also 2015 was when Suarez ran in behind, Messi had arguably the GOAT season, and Neymar was playing like Mbappe does now before Neymar became obsessed with becoming Messi 2.0. The rest of the old guard and spine was also like 26-28 years old. The dynamics were completely different. You also had a fear factor then that you don't have now.
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Post by neuro11 Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:34 pm

It was so pathetic to see us playing like this. I mean we all accepted the scoreline long before but the way we submitted ourselves (Specifically Koeman) is disgusting. I felt sorry for Araujo and De jong who were the only two top performers last night. I must acknowledge now that Araujo is really a beast. The only thing I enjoyed throughout the game is how he put Sane into his pocket and kept him frustrated.
Now we have pedri and Alba out. We saw it coming for a long time. Dynamo and Benfica might be too strong for us now if Fati and Dembele does not return on time.

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Post by neuro11 Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:37 pm

@Casciavit wrote:
@Myesyats wrote:But then again I remember our 2015 games versus Bayern in CL and that team wasnt so athletic either. A bunch of the same/similar players; Pique, Alba, Busquets, Rakitic, old Alves.

I guess having MSN gave us the ability to counter quickly and aggressively, but even then apart from the front three it was the same snails, very slow etc etc.

What was Lucho feeding them? Was Lucho the last coach to actually properly prepare the physical aspect of the game in training? There's no doubt that the 3 stooges that followed him were failures; Valverde, Setien and Koeman are about the worst managers I can imagine that a top team could hire.

I could've sworn I read an interview from Xavi around the time Valverde joined where he brought up how Lucho was the first coach to make them do long distance physical work. The ones before him focused mainly on positional play and short distance running. I remember Xavi saying that the long distance running didn't suit Iniesta but Barca had to do it because of MSN. He said with Valverde coming back they'll revert more to the short distance training instead.

Also 2015 was when Suarez ran in behind, Messi had arguably the GOAT season, and Neymar was playing like Mbappe does now before Neymar became obsessed with becoming Messi 2.0. The rest of the old guard and spine was also like 26-28 years old. The dynamics were completely different. You also had a fear factor then that you don't have now.


very interesting.......

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Post by Casciavit Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:40 pm

Barca sucks at defending against sustained pressure. When you put them on the backfoot they're incredibly awful. I honestly think that's what it comes down to.

This was the case a decade ago and that issue is just exacerbated by the fact you're playing old, unathletic snails who can't go toe to toe in terms of intensity against the big teams.

The thing is though you still have good ball players so they are usually capable of playing out of opposition pressure, but it doesn't go far because you don't have any outlets in attack. Just remember how dangerous you looked when Dembele played as a 9 against PSG in the return leg with De Jong playing as the middle CB? You actually had a bit of a transition threat there.

What you're left with now is a team that doesn't train to sit back and doesn't have the profiles to cope with playing on the back foot. For me that explains why you choked away your leads because you had to get pinned back due to opposition pressure of wanting to make a comeback. It explains the PSG and Bayern beatings too.

You don't have the quality in possession you did a decade ago to bully opponents to play your way either. It's a system, profiles, and quality issue. Selling one player was never going to magically fix anything and anyone who thought that was retarded. Fati and Dembele returning will improve the transition threat, but I don't think it'll make a big enough difference to cope with the pressure and intensity big teams will put Barca under on.
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