Match Day Thread 21-22

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Post by Casciavit Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:40 am

Barca sucks at defending against sustained pressure. When you put them on the backfoot they're incredibly awful. I honestly think that's what it comes down to.

This was the case a decade ago and that issue is just exacerbated by the fact you're playing old, unathletic snails who can't go toe to toe in terms of intensity against the big teams.

The thing is though you still have good ball players so they are usually capable of playing out of opposition pressure, but it doesn't go far because you don't have any outlets in attack. Just remember how dangerous you looked when Dembele played as a 9 against PSG in the return leg with De Jong playing as the middle CB? You actually had a bit of a transition threat there.

What you're left with now is a team that doesn't train to sit back and doesn't have the profiles to cope with playing on the back foot. For me that explains why you choked away your leads because you had to get pinned back due to opposition pressure of wanting to make a comeback. It explains the PSG and Bayern beatings too.

You don't have the quality in possession you did a decade ago to bully opponents to play your way either. It's a system, profiles, and quality issue. Selling one player was never going to magically fix anything and anyone who thought that was retarded. Fati and Dembele returning will improve the transition threat, but I don't think it'll make a big enough difference to cope with the pressure and intensity big teams will put Barca under on.

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Post by The Franchise Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:55 am

@The Franchise wrote:Did anyone see the RB friendly?

Horrific performance.

352 could work, but not with Koeman. He seems very basic tactically, im very disappointed.


Defensively, Koeman is too man oriented also. It was easy for them to simply shift the midfielders over to one side because of our extreme midfield man orientation and have a dropping forward arrive into space, breaking our press.

If Koeman cant iron out these issues, we need to "settle" for playing 433 as its a much simpler solution where the players already can grasp it. It is a shame, because De Jong-Busi as this libero-pivot interchange could be tactical gold with another, more inventive mind as coach.

Clearly Koeman has done nothing about what happened against RB. It was a copy and paste performance.

I dont understand how you can see this game (Loss and worse performance of the preseason) and think you should return to the same system except even less athletic because Roberto in for Dest, De Jong in for Griezmann and no De Jong in the first line.
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Post by BarcaLearning Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:31 pm

@Myesyats wrote:But then again I remember our 2015 games versus Bayern in CL and that team wasnt so athletic either. A bunch of the same/similar players; Pique, Alba, Busquets, Rakitic, old Alves.

I guess having MSN gave us the ability to counter quickly and aggressively, but even then apart from the front three it was the same snails, very slow etc etc.

What was Lucho feeding them? Was Lucho the last coach to actually properly prepare the physical aspect of the game in training? There's no doubt that the 3 stooges that followed him were failures; Valverde, Setien and Koeman are about the worst managers I can imagine that a top team could hire.


Thing is, all the bunch of players were 5 years younger and still in their primes more or less. Rakitic was very good, and then a couple of more or so I think it was after the WC year he declined rapidly for some reason.

Old Alves was so good that even old hes still million times better than any RBs we have had b4 or after him... we just havent replaced him. What he offered on the right or us in games both attacking and defending ppl dont appreciate enough. Basically our real decline really started with him leaving, more so than any other player leaving.
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Post by BarcaLearning Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:50 pm

I get your thinking for the lineup should be more for the promising youngsters Dani Very Happy But unfortunately I dont think Koeman despite him giving many of them chances, would realistically do it. Firstly he still wants to keep his job and avoid a humiliating score line, which is what he did for this game - damage limitation. Anyone could see it was safety first to concede the least as possible and hopefully catch Bayern out. Secondly this was Bayern, u can expect any Barca coach to field half a team if unproven La Masia or B team youngsters in a CL game Razz

I think the only possibility for Barca to do that is if they can sack Koeman sometime this season or at the latest the summer and bring in Xavi. Then give Xavi at least one season (which would mean next seasons prolly) with basically not aims for trophies and just build up the team from scratch or on the youngsters + the very few young talents we have now. Thats a lot of hope on Xavi, but he does seem to be the ideal one to do it. Importantly he needs to be up to date with the tactics today, and not be too traditional or rigid since we know the game played 10 years ago doesnt work alone anymore, need to evolve with the times.
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Post by BarcaLearning Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:52 pm

Btw, Alex still not showing up Very Happy Prolly gone in hiding or making up a new username already? Very Happy Expected but still, bit disappointed, been waiting for the laughs.
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Post by Myesyats Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:58 pm

He will say we were better because we conceded 3 instead of 8, which is technically correct so I guess he was right all along :bow:


In reality 0 shots on goal for the first time since forever!!!

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Post by alexjanosik Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:47 pm

@Casciavit wrote:
@alexjanosik wrote:Not willing to out your foot where your mouth is as I thought.
I repeat. We will instantly become more competitive in the CL once we get rid of him. Easily through to the knockouts and no more humiliations. At most going out by 1 goal. And the team he goes to (City or PSG) will be much worse. City wont win the PL with him and the likes of Gundogan, KDB et all will look like pub players.
Willing to bet hotshot?

Nice start to becoming instantly more competitive in the CL once you get rid of him.


You and others need to stop with the Messi obsession or atleast not mix Messi and Barca. He is gone. Make peace with it.
You came to gloat after a 3-0 group stage game against a top 2/3 team on the planet. A game where we played Pique/Garcia at CB,Busquets at DM, Luke De Jong at CF (freaking who). And you think that negates what I said. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
My memory is a little hazy but I seem to remember us getting our ass handed to us for the past 8 years in the CL. Humiliation after humiliation after humiliation with your man starring in them. Got slapped around by Robertson and he took it like the mental midget he is.
Also seem to remember a far worse Juve than this current Bayern beat us 3-0 in the last group game last season. With your man choking again while CR7 took the limelight.
We are better off without Messi. Half a billion to deliver humiliation after humiliation after humiliation. No thanks. We are transitioning and need to get rid of a few more of the old guard. But its not far when we will start being competitive again.

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Post by alexjanosik Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:51 pm

BTW saw that PSG really dominated against mighty Club Brugge. PSG had an almighty 9 shots while mighty Brugge only had 16. I guess Mbappe, Neymar and co are holding your guy back.

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Post by BarcaLearning Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:30 am

Huh, but but but what happened to the team being better without Messi and no much humiliations in the CL? Very Happy Pls explain?
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Post by danyjr Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:53 am

There is no Messi obsession. He was just calling you out on a very stupid claim which the whole forum is now laughing at. No offence, you brought it onto yourself.

You mention Piqué and Busquets names like they weren't present when Messi was playing and Barça were getting humiliated. You also forgot to mention Lenglet whom if he was playing Bayern would have likely scored more (one of the main culprits at 8-2). The fact is Bayern weren't even out of their 1st gear for the entirety of the match, and could have scored 3-4 more if they finished better. On the other hand you had zero shots on target at home, I don't remember the last time Barça didn't register a single shot on target, let alone in Camp Nou. You call this an improvement?!

As for criticising Messi for PSG coming short when Ander Herrera and Draxler were playing in midfield (even worse midfield than Barça's), the front 3 not having played more than 45 minutes together, including Neymar who is clearly overweight and Mauro *bleep* Icardi. Still Messi was PSG's best player IMHO.
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Post by Casciavit Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:53 am

@danyjr wrote:There is no Messi obsession. He was just calling you out on a very stupid claim which the whole forum is now laughing at. No offence, you brought it onto yourself.

You mention Piqué and Busquets names like they weren't present when Messi was playing and Barça were getting humiliated. You also forgot to mention Lenglet whom if he was playing Bayern would have likely scored more (one of the main culprits at 8-2). The fact is Bayern weren't even out of their 1st gear for the entirety of the match, and could have scored 3-4 more if they finished better. On the other hand you had zero shots on target at home, I don't remember the last time Barça didn't register a single shot on target, let alone in Camp Nou. You call this an improvement?!

As for criticising Messi for PSG coming short when Ander Herrera and Draxler were playing in midfield (even worse midfield than Barça's), the front 3 not having played more than 45 minutes together, including Neymar who is clearly overweight and Mauro *bleep* Icardi. Still Messi was PSG's best player IMHO.


He's an idiot who thought Messi leaving would instantly improve the team and that he's the reason Barca was getting raped in big games. He made that claim no one else. Now he's trying to walk back on it saying it's because the rest of the old guys are still there like they weren't there when Messi was around. rofl

We all told him if Messi left, but the rest of the team stayed the same things wouldn't change much. However, he was adamant that they would as he thought Messi was the reason for all the big losses. Barca's bigger issue was that it was an aging team who couldn't cope with the intensity that top teams put them under. They suck at dealing with sustained pressure and being put on the back foot and it's exacerbated by having old snails in the team who don't train in that manner. Post-Neymar made it even worse as Barca didn't have any outlets as Suarez lost his legs and Messi became even more ball obsessed than he was before.

Obviously, Messi's lack of defensive workrate didn't help matters but no one denied his walking was a problem in big games. This pleb always used it as the main reason for defeats.

The best part is he was going around saying no one wanted to take his bet and I told him it was because he was trying to act clever. He thought once Messi left Barca would do a full reshuffle. I even told him if Barca kept the same spine post Messi they'd still be getting rekt and said loser doesn't post anymore depending on who is wrong. He didn't reply obviously.

Again, no one is saying if Messi played against Bayern, Barca would've won on Tuesday. They would have still been dominated, but the fact is since 2012 you have been accusing him as the reason for any big loss. Especially the embarrassing losses since Roma. Now that he's gone and you're still getting embarrassed in the same manner don't be a pussy and blame it on the remaining old guard when you seldom did so when Messi was around and chose to primarily blame him for the big defeats.
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Post by neuro11 Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:28 am

could not have a better day than seeing the true mental midget getting exposed by his own comment

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Post by BarcaLearning Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:05 am

This forum is gold Looooool Very Happy
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Post by alexjanosik Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:36 am

Whole forum. You mean the circle jerk of the Messi Nut huggers group who think the sun shines out of the mental midget's ass.
I repeat, we are better off without Messi. A group stage game against a top 3 team is not going to change that. A game in which we dont have Ansu, Dembele and had to start De Jong.
Hope the Messi nut huggers now move their party to PSG. I see that the excuses have started already for why the mental midget will fail at PSG. Midfield not good enough. Neymar overweight. LOL.
Imagine claiming that a generational talent like Neymar is holding Messi back. But then, who are we kidding. We had MSN and this chump watched while CR led Madrid to the 3 peat. And the nut huggers made the usual excuses.

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Post by BarcaLearning Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:02 pm

Wow, it gets worst... u need help dude Razz
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Post by Myesyats Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:20 pm

@alexjanosik wrote:I repeat, we are better off without Messi.

This is just incorrect, again and again.

The last decade or so was the best period for Barca in their entire history. We managed to win two trebles, 08/09 and 14/15.

Honestly it could take another 100 years till we win another treble. Thats how significant Messi is, or was, in Barca's history. To claim we will be better off without the best player in history is a monumental brainfart, I believe.  

Because I dont think you truly meant that, but you said it and now you're sticking by it. I commend you for your stubbornness, it is quite extraordinary. Although, in my opinion, it would be better to just move on and admit that people can sometimes be wrong.

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Post by alexjanosik Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:56 pm

Its all about return on investment. We invested half a billion on him which drove is to bankruptcy for pathetic returns on the pitch. All the while sacrificing on our philosophy of play and ruining our distinct ide tiny. If we got commensurate returns, it would be fine. Instead, what we got was humiliation after humiliation. I genuinely think we can be better without him if we are smart. The likes of Bayern and Liverpool have shown the way forward. Its not through superstar forwards who hog the limelight. Its through a collective approach where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. And its not unthinkable that we can emulate them provided we are smart. And the first step was getting rid of the guy who stood in the way of achieving that goal. Thats the way forward. Not pining for a guy who did his best impression of Harry Houdini for 8 years while we got spanked left, right and center in Europe.

You might argue that superstar forwards has always been part of our identity. True. But I don't think that approach will work in Europe anymore in the 2020's unless that forward happens to be CR7.

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Post by BarcaLearning Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:50 am

Looool, this is so fked up, wtf "unless that fowward is CR"... man I just didnt expect someone can be so delusional, u truly r the worst I have seen.

Already I see already that ur next excuse for our inevitable failures coming up will be the club is not "smart" enough. Nice dude Very Happy
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Post by CM Pep Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:01 am

I think you're all in for a big surprise if you think we're not better off without Messi.

Don't define the season with just 1 game. Wait till the season ends, I'm confident we'll be in title contention in the league. unsure of CdR, because we have a thinner squad (we let go of all the high wagers).

And CL - I don't think we have been in contention for that even with Messi. I do agree with Alex though, we won't be seeing any Roma, Liverpool or, Bayerns happening any time soon. Looks extremely improbable. The only reason that could happen is if we have an injury crisis of some sort, or Koeman goes into some weird tactical funk / picks a fight with the board. Both seem improbable.

And if we do get humiliated, am happy to admit I was wrong.

From a footballing perspective though, I see what Alex is saying and I agree with him more than I disagree.

I mean, United lost to some pleb team the other day, are you guys saying they are worse off with CR7? Lol give me a break.

Let's judge the season, not just the match.

----

Also @BarcaLearning are all your posts just to give a reaction and lol or something? Very cringe.
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Post by CM Pep Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:14 am

Where I disagree is with Messi & PSG. I think just because how PSG is positioned in the leagues, and also if they get lucky in CL draw, they could make it to the semis. And that would be enough for Messi's stint in PSG to be considered a good stint.

Then depending on the semi performance, Messi could be vindicated for having a good season.

Anything short of CL semis and winning Ligue 1 would reflect poorly on Messi (and Neymar & Mbappe too - but mostly Messi).

Do remember that PSG had already reached a final and semi without Messi.

I for one would like to see him succeed. He's an all-time great, and deserves a great last hurrah.
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Post by Myesyats Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:40 am

THe thing is Alex is now swaying away from his original point though.

The claim being disputed here is:
@alexjanosik wrote:We will instantly become more competitive in the CL once we get rid of him. Easily through to the knockouts and no more humiliations. At most going out by 1 goal.


Now he's saying (more or less) that it's better to have a hard-working, well-oiled machine like Bayern instead of a clump of randoms around an alien Messi who's in the centre of everything. And of course, at this moment in time, he is right. Because Messi is now old and not as decisive, doesnt run as much etc.

But that was not the original point. He says we will instantly be more competitive (EASILY through to the knockouts) but the reality is with Messi it was impossible for us to go down to EL and now myself (and I assume many others) consider finishing 3rd in our CL group as a REAL possibility that would've been unthinkable with Messi on the team.

We already suffered a big loss and we will suffer more. Bayern was in 1st gear all game so the 3-0 is flattering. The entire direction and structure of the club was at fault for the humiliations over the years, not Messi himself. To pin it down to one individual is very shortsighted, its an issue stretching from the top of the management to the very bottom on the pitch.

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Post by CM Pep Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:25 am

If the 3-0 yesterday was humiliating (which I'll come to in a bit), then the 8-2, 4-0 etc. we've seen are enough to consider Messi not be a GOAT anymore.

I think it's apples and oranges honestly. The 3-0 was humiliating if you place that level of importance to a CL group stage match, with half our squad out injured.

If the same happened in a CL QF/R16, with our first choice team there, then I will definitely consider it a humiliation.

Do you guys remember the 2-0 we beat Inter during the Mou era? Was that "humiliating"?. I mean Iniesta ran rings around that team.
Inter still went on to win the treble. So were they better off with Mou or not?

I'm not saying that we'll win the treble, but if this Bayern defeat was humiliating, then us losing 8-2, 7-0 etc. etc. that should just drive Messi out of contention for GOAT forever. Which I don't think is what anyone here (incl me) will admit

I don't see how it can go both ways.
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Post by CM Pep Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:28 am

Also whether we are easily through to the knockouts or not, will only be apparent AFTER the group stages.

IF we go on to get >=10 points from this group, would you consider it easily through or not?
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Post by Myesyats Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:37 am

You're right, this is a discussion we ought to have at the end of this season, not at the start of it. But I think the signs are clear it will not be a successful year and Laporta is already considering sacking Koeman, its a real possibility. And I'd agree with that, Koeman is unbelievably limited tactially, not a top team coach in any way.


Its hard to tell what would and would not be a successful season for us at this point. I do not know our limitations without Messi. It will take more time to really assess that.

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Post by BarcaLearning Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:09 pm

Thats fair enough, sure u can understand why Im coming from, cant help but over do it at times, its been so long and just unbelievable for me to see the posts even now Razz

We will wait and see, but Im pretty sure, we wont reach the level in our game of a few years back in a long time, and ppl STILL dont realize just how much losing Messi affects our game. I get all u saying the pros of not having Messi weaknesses affect the overall team balance, etc., but the cons are sooooo much more than that. Thats really what surprises me that some ppl dont see.
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Post by danyjr Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:23 pm

The state of expectations when registering zero shots on target at home is not considered humiliating. Sorry, I forgot Barcelona are Slavia Prague level now.

The key ingredients to failure, the common denominators to humiliation are still here: mediocre coaches and poor recruitment. These are what cost Barcelona humiliations, not Messi.

Was Messi innocent during those matches? Sure he wasn't, for his greatness he has a few big weaknesses and much like the rest of the team he is to be blamed in those matches. But when someone refuses to criticises anything but Messi I'd say maximum irrecoverable levels of insanity is reached.

PS: the money spent on Messi wasn't in any way shape or form Messi's fault. If he was asking for too much money your director and president should have said no, but he agreed knowing the only thing that would save his presidency would be having Messi around cause from a sporting perspective he ran the club to the ground. It is like when Argentinian people blame Messi for being a bad captain. Is it his fault that he was selected by the coach to captain the team?
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