The Racism Thread

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Post by Casciavit Tue Mar 01, 2022 5:13 pm

I think it's about time many realize that some Europeans have a different definition of what racism is compared to people in the west. Laughing

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Post by Casciavit Tue Mar 01, 2022 5:22 pm

sportsczy wrote:Everyone's racist... even the victims of racism.


I don't know if this is popular, but I think this is quite true especially when dealing with first-generation immigrants. When they first move to the west they tend to experience some form of racism, but when you hear their views about other subjects, you sometimes realize they aren't much different. Laughing

I've had Northern Indian coworkers who think they're better than Southern Indians because of their lighter skin color. At the same time I have a Christian southern Indian friend who wouldn't let his daughter marry a "dumb punjabi". 

I've heard North Africans complain about racism, but then say black labour workers from Chad are the reasons their country isn't prospering etc. I mean the slang for black people in Arab countries is "abd" which translates to slave.

I remember when I was in University and one of my classmates was Chinese and she complained that while her mom was walking down the street some teenager rolled down the window of his car and yelled "ching chong" at her and that made her mom upset. Yet, her mom was the same person who told her not to hang out with brown people because they are terrorists. Laughing

They'll complain about someone like Trump, but when you ask them who they would vote for in their local home country elections they'd bring up names who advocate for the same causes that Trump did. Low immigration and other right-wing conservative views.


Last edited by Casciavit on Tue Mar 01, 2022 6:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Tue Mar 01, 2022 5:54 pm

sportsczy wrote:Everyone's racist... even the victims of racism.
I think it's more accurate to say that just because you're a victim of racism doesn't mean you can't be racist yourself.
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Post by Nishankly Tue Mar 01, 2022 6:05 pm

Casciavit wrote:
sportsczy wrote:Everyone's racist... even the victims of racism.


I don't know if this is popular, but I think this is quite true especially when dealing with first-generation immigrants. When they first move to the west they tend to experience some form of racism, but when you hear their views about other subjects, you sometimes realize they aren't much different. Laughing

I've had Northern Indian coworkers who think they're better than Southern Indians because of their lighter skin color. At the same time I have a Christian southern Indian friend who wouldn't let his daughter marry a "dumb punjabi". 

I've heard North Africans complain about racism, but then say black labour workers from Chad are the reasons their country isn't prospering etc. I mean the slang for black people in Arab countries is "abd" which translates to slave.

I remember when I was in University and one of my classmates was Chinese and she complained that while her mom was walking down the street some teenager rolled down the window of his car and yelled "ching chong" at her and that made her mom upset. Yet, her mom was the same person who told her not to take hang out with brown people because they are terrorists. Laughing

They'll complain about someone like Trump, but when you ask them who they would vote for in their local home country elections they'd bring up names who advocate for the same causes that Trump did. Low immigration and other right-wing conservative views.


They are one of the biggest reasons why immigration is failing at the lower stratas, fuckers take there backward views and implement it in other countries and the minority group present there, main reasons for ghettoization if that's the right word or basically racial segregation in modern societies. I have always been vocal about controlling mass immigration, even skilled let alone unskilled. Those coworkers of yours were probably upper middle class or rich in India and they still have such filthy thinking. The issue of skin color is big in India either way, we are still living and being fed the colonization rituals.
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Post by El Gunner Tue Mar 01, 2022 6:19 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
sportsczy wrote:Everyone's racist... even the victims of racism.
I think it's more accurate to say that just because you're a victim of racism doesn't mean you can't be racist yourself.

yea i wanted to say the more accurate statement would be "everyone can be racist". But the way sports phrased it, it sounded like he meant everyone is intrinsically racist... so i want him to expand on that thought a bit more.
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Post by Pedram Tue Mar 01, 2022 6:24 pm

sportsczy wrote:Everyone's racist... even the victims of racism.

So much this, Betty La Fea was a blatant example of it. guy used to cry about racism 24/7 but would go on to call @The Demon of Carthage a boatperson. Laughing
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Post by The Demon of Carthage Tue Mar 01, 2022 6:53 pm

I completely forgot about that ignorant, hypocritical racist.

Glad I exposed him for what he truly is.

Forum is so much better without his hate and ignorance.
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Post by Warrior Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:09 pm

White people don't suffer racial discrimination i think that's why our tolerance to racial ignorance is generally higher. What matters for me is the intention for some the intrinsically racist nature of the act prevails. But i think they are wrong. Growing up on the privileged side of systemic racism don't show much about the quality of a person. The presence or absence of malicious intentions is a much better way to judge.

To be clear the ukrainian who praise blondes with blue eyes will deserve whatever load of shit he gets for his gross ignorance. Just don't automatically assume his backwards mentality make him a nazi who would beat foreigners on the streets for example.

Recently found out it is inappropriate/racist to ask a person of color where they are from. Supposedly you exclude them right away as second class citizens and therefore establish a hierarchy in the relation. I was surprised since it's one of the first questions i ask when i get to know someone personally because 1. i am genuinely curious  2. the more you know on someone the more you understand them  3. it gives me something to talk about later on

Don't want to belittle anyone of course but i found such victimization a bit pathetic and far-fetched so i decide to dismiss it. Lol everybody i meet seem happy enough to share about themselves. Some people are hurt by racism to the point it makes them unreasonable, expecting nothing but obsequience towards their suffering. It's hopeless trying to appease them.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:24 pm

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/28/europe/students-allege-racism-ukraine-cmd-intl/index.html

Africans (and Indians) in Ukraine finally getting some MSM attention

El Gunner wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:
sportsczy wrote:Everyone's racist... even the victims of racism.
I think it's more accurate to say that just because you're a victim of racism doesn't mean you can't be racist yourself.

yea i wanted to say the more accurate statement would be "everyone can be racist". But the way sports phrased it, it sounded like he meant everyone is intrinsically racist... so i want him to expand on that thought a bit more.
I'm interpreting it the same way
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Post by El Gunner Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:32 pm

Warrior wrote:To be clear the ukrainian who praise blondes with blue eyes will deserve whatever load of shit he gets for his gross ignorance. Just don't automatically assume his backwards mentality make him a nazi who would beat foreigners on the streets for example.
well yea of course there's levels to it, and i agree. And i think, and hope, that's what Thimmy was also trying to say but not just in as many words.

Warrior wrote:Recently found out it is inappropriate/racist to ask a person of color where they are from. Supposedly you exclude them right away as second class citizens and therefore establish a hierarchy in the relation. I was surprised since it's one of the first questions i ask when i get to know someone personally because 1. i am genuinely curious 2. the more you know on someone the more you understand them 3. it gives me something to talk about later on
that's just fucking stupid tbh Laughing

Warrior wrote:Don't want to belittle anyone of course but i found such victimization a bit pathetic and far-fetched so i decide to dismiss it. Lol everybody i meet seem happy enough to share about themselves. Some people are hurt by racism to the point it makes them unreasonable, expecting nothing but obsequience towards their suffering. It's hopeless trying to appease them.
yea some people take the whole victimisation mentality to a whole other level that's beyond annoying, and makes it difficult to get along with them, or find reasonable grounds with them when interacting with them in general.
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Post by Nishankly Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:47 pm

Warrior wrote:

Recently found out it is inappropriate/racist to ask a person of color where they are from. Supposedly you exclude them right away as second class citizens and therefore establish a hierarchy in the relation. I was surprised since it's one of the first questions i ask when i get to know someone personally because 1. i am genuinely curious  2. the more you know on someone the more you understand them  3. it gives me something to talk about later on



Noooooooooooooo, this is the essence of conversation about understanding cultures and ethnicities and it opens door to wider meaningful deeper conversations especially in small talk. I do agree it may take people who are at arms by their nationality vs ethnicity by surprise, they will say they are from France or USA (you need to read the clue whether they are defensive while saying that) even if they do not "look like that historically". I do this so many times: I ask someone where they are from and they say France, I say "oh, that's coool (emphasis on the o) I am from India" and then I casually ask whether "you were born/grew up here or you have a lot travelled as a kid", this opens them to always shutting down the offensive flaps and they mention about their parents lives who have travelled into France from some place, their own upbringing in multicultural environments and we can now move onto dem jokes or her number.

This tactic though will probably not work in the USA or Canada since the accents are distinguishable and the history is much much older and not to mention race is forced into everything compared to Europe who are more chill about accepting cultures.
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Post by Nishankly Tue Mar 01, 2022 8:06 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/28/europe/students-allege-racism-ukraine-cmd-intl/index.html

Africans (and Indians) in Ukraine finally getting some MSM attention

El Gunner wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote: I think it's more accurate to say that just because you're a victim of racism doesn't mean you can't be racist yourself.

yea i wanted to say the more accurate statement would be "everyone can be racist". But the way sports phrased it, it sounded like he meant everyone is intrinsically racist... so i want him to expand on that thought a bit more.
I'm interpreting it the same way


Good news but racism can wait on this one as long as lives are not lost due to it, first and foremost should be ending the war.
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Post by Myesyats Tue Mar 01, 2022 8:53 pm

Pedram wrote:
sportsczy wrote:Everyone's racist... even the victims of racism.

guy used to cry about racism 24/7 but would go on to call @The Demon of Carthage a boatperson. Laughing

Part of me misses this guy, peak GL that was rofl
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Post by Warrior Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:20 pm

@Nish i never had any awkward situation regarding this, nobody ever went defensive, hence my surprise

To be fair i work in a domain where i am the visible minority, everyone is pretty chill, there is no racial tensions. We are all license plates in the bosses mind anyways.

Absurdly enough i've been asked several times if i am german or russian. Never understood why because i speak with a pretty thick local accent but eventually i realized my blue eyes, buzzcut and cheapo Adidas clothes might indicate otherwise.
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Post by El Gunner Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:24 pm

Myesyats wrote:
Pedram wrote:
sportsczy wrote:Everyone's racist... even the victims of racism.

guy used to cry about racism 24/7 but would go on to call @The Demon of Carthage a boatperson. Laughing

Part of me misses this guy, peak GL that was rofl

Betty was the GOAT
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Post by Myesyats Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:26 pm

Nishankly wrote:War in 2022, that too close to developed locations damn, this planet is cursed. Imagine giving up your life for this.


hmm
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Post by sportsczy Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:42 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
sportsczy wrote:Everyone's racist... even the victims of racism.
I think it's more accurate to say that just because you're a victim of racism doesn't mean you can't be racist yourself.

This of course.

I also don't paint all racism as evil and/or malicious necessarily. Most of it is social conditioning of varying degrees. As soon as you're taught to look at things through the lens of "race" and you use that lens, intentionally or unintentionally, you're in fact racist.

Eliminating the concept of race and then allowing a generation to be born and raised without "race" as a qualifier... is the only way you get rid of racism.

It will never happen imo.
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Post by Nishankly Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:09 pm

Myesyats wrote:
Nishankly wrote:War in 2022, that too close to developed locations damn, this planet is cursed. Imagine giving up your life for this.


hmm


Are you quoting the right person here though Myeyes? My focus has been on the Ukrainian dick and I have not used one post to compare other wars to Ukraine, while always being an advocate on GL of Western Society helping developing nations and always being vocal about not believing in cultures driven by religion since I am essentially agnostic. I think you should have quoted some other members who followed up on my post of a thread here but I get this quote for the banter.

If you want to use that line to put me in boat of those interviews than sure, I will start with a new line of defense, I assure you it will not be

"What's compelling is looking at them, the way they are dressed. These are prosperous, middle-class people. These are not obviously refugees trying to get away from the Middle East...or North Africa. They look like any European family that you'd live next door to."
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Post by McLewis Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:51 pm



The amount of gaslighting I have seen throughout social media as stories like the above began coming out of Ukraine has been truly staggering. And that's not counting the straight up denials. Videos and images being dismissed as fake, people who are actually there and posting their experiences being called Russian bots, actual members of the media, like the guy above, being called fake news for reporting what's happening to themselves or their love ones who are experiencing the racism first hand. It's frankly a lot.

I've been reading the responses since my last post and my biggest take away is that I need to remind people that racism is seldom as explicit or blatant as it was decades ago. Nowadays, it's a lot more subtle. It skirts just on the border of believability and nestles comfortably in ethical and moral gray areas. It hides behind more benign concepts like "cultural awkwardness". Racists have learned exceedingly well how to use ignorance as a shield against their true intentions.

This is why we keep seeing conflicting arguments of "These things are happening to white people too" or "foreigners should stay and fight" or "Why did they go to Ukraine in the first place?"  among other shitty arguments. None of these actually addresses the clear and obvious racism very clearly being experienced by people of color trying to flee the fighting. They are deflections, dismissals and minimizations. I see this a lot when it comes to discussing race. I tend to think it comes from a discomfort of discussing this issue. This "safety in numbers" approach when it comes to suffering is just really bizarre.

I said before, I'm focusing on seeing this conflict through the eyes of people who look like me that are stuck there. I said that because that's the only way I know how to see this conflict. So while the media lionizes Ukraine and its people, I'm going to remember stories like this one above that paint them in a lesser light, not because I want to bring them down from that pedestal, but because it's an inconvenient truth and those are always worth hearing.
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Post by farfan Tue Mar 01, 2022 11:14 pm

@McLewis the surprising thing, or not so surprising after all, is that a lot of this dismissive attitude is coming from the left. They're so invested in demonizing their Russian boogeyman (rightfully, in this case) that they're willing to turn a blind eye to any social justice violation that could make Russia's opponent look bad.
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Post by The Demon of Carthage Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:08 pm

McLewis wrote:


Please tell me this part of the story isn't true:
When they arrived to the border they were not let in. Two lines were formed. One for white people, the other for everyone else. Only Ukrainians were being let over the border. Thousands of people were forced to sleep outside in the cold. Fires were started to keep people warm.
Please tell me this is only fake news from a Russian bot. Please for the sake of humanity tell me it isn't true.
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Post by Art Morte Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:44 pm

sportsczy wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:
sportsczy wrote:Everyone's racist... even the victims of racism.
I think it's more accurate to say that just because you're a victim of racism doesn't mean you can't be racist yourself.

This of course.

I also don't paint all racism as evil and/or malicious necessarily. Most of it is social conditioning of varying degrees. As soon as you're taught to look at things through the lens of "race" and you use that lens, intentionally or unintentionally, you're in fact racist.

Eliminating the concept of race and then allowing a generation to be born and raised without "race" as a qualifier... is the only way you get rid of racism.

It will never happen imo.


I don't think it's just social conditioning, I think throughout humankind's history it's been a matter of life and death to be able to tell whether someone is part of your tribe or not. And I mean, like, even going back to times before Homo Sapiens. I believe there is at least a little in-built racism in everyone because of this. In peaceful times and peaceful societies decent people are not racist - but if we get a nuclear war and apocalypse times, I think we'd go back to trusting and accepting only those that we intrinsically recognize as our own people.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed Mar 02, 2022 1:56 pm

Art I was going to make a similar post, then I did some quick googling and it turns out there's some research already on this and the evidence does not necessarily support that view.

Spoiler:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/out-the-darkness/201801/the-psychology-racism

The article goes on to suggest an alternative view, which is discrimination as a response to our own inadequacies. (Kind of along the lines of Lyndon Johnson's famous quote "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.")

I'm not sure I'm fully convinced (in-group preference is something prevalent in a lot of animal cultures, for instance), and maybe it's a little from column A and a little from column B, but thought it was interesting.
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Post by farfan Wed Mar 02, 2022 2:45 pm

The Demon of Carthage wrote:
McLewis wrote:


Please tell me this part of the story isn't true:
When they arrived to the border they were not let in. Two lines were formed. One for white people, the other for everyone else. Only Ukrainians were being let over the border. Thousands of people were forced to sleep outside in the cold. Fires were started to keep people warm.
Please tell me this is only fake news from a Russian bot. Please for the sake of humanity tell me it isn't true.


These stories are true and fairly expected tbh. The guy is from CNN which is about as anti-Russian as it gets.
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Post by El Gunner Wed Mar 02, 2022 3:37 pm

@BC @Art @Sports
yea i get it, it can be a compelling argument, and almost a defeatist argument you could also say, to make that it's all just natural/evolutionary. And yes, in-group/collective bias are definitely things. But i'd like to think race is a different animal on its own. That has deep ties to classism and class consciousness. And that in a (hypothetical) ideal/utopian society is possible to be eradicated through priming and new learned behaviour.

I mean let's just argue in that the simplest hypothetical way. Let's say humans of all races and nationalities decide to inter-breed, we get some sort of all-in-one collective government that works for all, and we get develop a technology that controls weather (so as to eradicate any huge differences in skin colour caused by Sun and climate over time)... then surely just based on that, things would starkly improve on the problem of racism, no?
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Post by McLewis Wed Mar 02, 2022 3:45 pm

farfan wrote:@McLewis the surprising thing, or not so surprising after all, is that a lot of this dismissive attitude is coming from the left. They're so invested in demonizing their Russian boogeyman (rightfully, in this case) that they're willing to turn a blind eye to any social justice violation that could make Russia's opponent look bad.


I saw what you're referring to first hand during the highest fervors of BLM almost 2 years back. I kept continually seeing this argument that racial inequality was just a part of overall class inequality. A part of the same pie rather than a completely different flavor of pie altogether.

So I'm well acquainted with the left's ability to put what they believe to be bigger issues over race issues. And I say that as a member of the left myself.
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