Nationalism in Europe [Controversial]

THE PEOPLE fighting pennies to dollar to survive in concrete jungles, breaking their minds and backs in bullshit office jobs, and live in a never-ending consumer mindset is the best we've ever done?

it's really just a perspective thing and not an objective fact

`My brother there is a reason I came to this conclusion and it certainly isn't by my own thought just the facts themselves.

Any idea how bad it was before that?

The people fighting for pennies still have freedom to break out of that mould. I dont believe in that mould why I dropped out of Uni to go away from a salary and carve out my own.

Ill provide you with an apt article of back then and now to give you light.

Trust me it was a hard pill to swallow but it's true.

El Gunner wrote:^^modernity at what cost? who is to say things are overall better and spiritually healthier than it was when people believed in Gods, and strong forms of Patriarchy ran societies...

i just see it as part of evolution.... a thousand years from now, if we make it that far, things will look completely different than it does now... that's just how it goes, i guess

I see this as a beautiful although very idealized outlook and viewpoint. The harsh reality is that life is incredibly cruel. Do you know what was the infant death rate before modern medicine???  up to 50% in pre-industrial Europe as one example!!

You may not have been alive if it weren't for it.

Basically before modern medicine and technology every day was a struggle and a fight for resources, not a fairytale by any means

futbol wrote:

McLewis wrote:I think it's weird to pretend gang rapes and violence with knives are this new thing in Europe when Europeans themselves have become well known at both throughout the course of their own history. They spread out far and wide committing these acts on people they considered their lessers, hiding behind religion as their justification.

I posit that mass immigration would not have been a thing at all had the West not destabilized these regions with their imperialism and capitalistic greed.

Had the Western govts tried to reverse the damage they did to these regions, this situation may not exist today.

The chickens have come home to roost.

Sure, sexually molesting minors in public swimming halls was a normal thing in Germany or Austria 15 years ago. Let's just burry our head in the sand.

Explain how Europe in particular apparently benefits from destabilizing the Middle East while voluntarily cutting of their gas supply from Russia and introducing European Union Emissions Trading System with an upper limit on CO2 emissions. "Hurr durr they want to steal oil" doesn't quite add up there.

Germany lost 2 World Wars, Japan ate 2 Nuclear Bombs, China was colonized by every Dick and Harry. They became 3 of the most technologically powerful, developed, civilized nations on the planet. Meanwhile Western woke people pretend that Africa or Middle East are what they are today because of Western injustice 300 years ago. This is based on the false belief that every culture is capable in the same way and if not then it's because of the bad evil white folks.

Go and make a holiday trip in Bangladesh then go to Shenzhen right after, maybe it will open your eyes. One place lives in the 1700s in the midst of garbage, the other in the 2100s with 250 mph trains. And it has nothing to do with "injustice and destabilization by the white guy".

Whole lotta misdirection, deflection and red herrings here.

I'm not in the mood for writing a paragraph to rebut this so I'm going to keep it succinct: Europe carved the whole goddamn globe up like a Christmas turkey and raped it of its resources with impunity. Now it's experiencing the consequences of that. It's uncomfortable, it's inconvenient and it's apparently intolerable. Good.

Agreed McLewis with a few exceptions. The British did some good with their colonies... Hong Kong is the prime example with India not far behind. Put in extremely good infrastructure. On the other extreme... Belgium raped their colonies. And of course, the Middle East and Africa messes are completely on the heads of the Western countries.

So mostly agree. The chickens are coming home to roost.

Regarding Britain's colonization in the East. Colonization that yields positive results is still the result of something being forced on the native population. I mean, Japan rapidly modernized under Meiji and that came after nearly 2 centuries of Europeans (then Americans) casually and openly threatening them to open themselves up to trade or be destroyed and then colonized. It's a real instructive that the net result of the "positive" colonization becomes the dominant narrative yet this isn't the case when the net results have been decidedly negative. That's when blame starts to get shifted and the defensiveness sets in.

And let me be clear about something - The reality is back then (as it was in the centuries and millennia before) is might made right and if you were strong enough to fight off colonization, you did and you could write your own story about it. If not, the best you could hope for was to become like Hong Kong (as you mentioned Sports) and then deal with the revisionist history of the victors. At worst? Well that's why we're talking about this subject.

Myesyats wrote:

El Gunner wrote:^^modernity at what cost? who is to say things are overall better and spiritually healthier than it was when people believed in Gods, and strong forms of Patriarchy ran societies...

i just see it as part of evolution.... a thousand years from now, if we make it that far, things will look completely different than it does now... that's just how it goes, i guess

I see this as a beautiful although very idealized outlook and viewpoint. The harsh reality is that life is incredibly cruel. Do you know what was the infant death rate before modern medicine???  up to 50% in pre-industrial Europe as one example!!

You may not have been alive if it weren't for it.

Basically before modern medicine and technology every day was a struggle and a fight for resources, not a fairytale by any means

again, this is just a very eurocentric, scientific-centric viewpoint... living longer doesn't necessarily mean better life

Arquitecto wrote:`My brother there is a reason I came to this conclusion and it certainly isn't by my own thought just the facts themselves.

Any idea how bad it was before that?

The people fighting for pennies still have freedom to break out of that mould. I dont believe in that mould why I dropped out of Uni to go away from a salary and carve out my own.

Ill provide you with an apt article of back then and now to give you light.

Trust me it was a hard pill to swallow but it's true.

no it's not a fact, it's just something you convince yourself of

Arquitecto always bragging about his venture capitalism...
tell us actually in what business you started up yourself, how much you make, what hours you work, and what assets you own... and we'll be the judge if it's all going as rosey as you make it sound

El Gunner wrote:
again, this is just a very eurocentric, scientific-centric viewpoint... living longer doesn't necessarily mean better life

What if true spirituality awaits us somewhere else in the universe and obviously reaching those distances isn't possible without technological advancement

What if modern science allows for the explanation of god himself?

El Gunner wrote:Arquitecto always bragging about his venture capitalism...
tell us actually in what business you started up yourself, how much you make, what hours you work, and what assets you own... and we'll be the judge if it's all going as rosey as you make it sound

Nowhere have I mentioned venture capitalism or capitalism. Doesn't mean Capitalism isn't King and you can't provide any argument against that.

If I posted what I earn I cannot imagine how weak of a move that would be nice bait

El Gunner wrote:

Myesyats wrote:

El Gunner wrote:^^modernity at what cost? who is to say things are overall better and spiritually healthier than it was when people believed in Gods, and strong forms of Patriarchy ran societies...

i just see it as part of evolution.... a thousand years from now, if we make it that far, things will look completely different than it does now... that's just how it goes, i guess

I see this as a beautiful although very idealized outlook and viewpoint. The harsh reality is that life is incredibly cruel. Do you know what was the infant death rate before modern medicine???  up to 50% in pre-industrial Europe as one example!!

You may not have been alive if it weren't for it.

Basically before modern medicine and technology every day was a struggle and a fight for resources, not a fairytale by any means

again, this is just a very eurocentric, scientific-centric viewpoint... living longer doesn't necessarily mean better life

Arquitecto wrote:`My brother there is a reason I came to this conclusion and it certainly isn't by my own thought just the facts themselves.

Any idea how bad it was before that?

The people fighting for pennies still have freedom to break out of that mould. I dont believe in that mould why I dropped out of Uni to go away from a salary and carve out my own.

Ill provide you with an apt article of back then and now to give you light.

Trust me it was a hard pill to swallow but it's true.

no it's not a fact, it's just something you convince yourself of

Guy there is nothing tangible you can speak of that is better than today's society beyond your nonsensical romanticisations of it. It's akin to hearing what boomers say of the golden years of Millenials saying they were born in the wrong time.

There is no winner in the world who will do either.

I hard to learn this the hard way. Past is never coming back nor can it.

Myesyats wrote:

El Gunner wrote:^^modernity at what cost? who is to say things are overall better and spiritually healthier than it was when people believed in Gods, and strong forms of Patriarchy ran societies...

i just see it as part of evolution.... a thousand years from now, if we make it that far, things will look completely different than it does now... that's just how it goes, i guess

I see this as a beautiful although very idealized outlook and viewpoint. The harsh reality is that life is incredibly cruel. Do you know what was the infant death rate before modern medicine???  up to 50% in pre-industrial Europe as one example!!

You may not have been alive if it weren't for it.

Basically before modern medicine and technology every day was a struggle and a fight for resources, not a fairytale by any means

Exactly. Only the brainless conflate modern medicine paid by lobbies as an overall glitch against medicine.

Braincel thinking:"Science tells me these days its okay to be fat its okay to stick to a plastic and soy laden Vegan diet therefore science bad" not knowing Science is not a diety it's a form of determinism.


Therefore if it's done incorrectly that isn't science it's heavily skewed.

MF if you cut a cut on your finger back then you'd be cooked and die off.

Its been one of the worlds leading advancements and its not even close.
Like why tf is this even being explained

Myesyats wrote:

El Gunner wrote:
again, this is just a very eurocentric, scientific-centric viewpoint... living longer doesn't necessarily mean better life

What if true spirituality awaits us somewhere else in the universe and obviously reaching those distances isn't possible without technological advancement

What if modern science allows for the explanation of god himself?

i'm not denying any of these things

i'm not saying we should go back to living in huts and hunting with sticks and stones... i'm just saying, evolution doesn't necessarily mean "better"... and i'm just saying stop being arrogant, racist and one-dimensional in your thinking that you truly believe modern-day Western and Eurocentric society is the best humanity has done up until this point

Arquitecto wrote:

El Gunner wrote:Arquitecto always bragging about his venture capitalism...
tell us actually in what business you started up yourself, how much you make, what hours you work, and what assets you own... and we'll be the judge if it's all going as rosey as you make it sound

Nowhere have I mentioned venture capitalism or capitalism. Doesn't mean Capitalism isn't King and you can't provide any argument against that.

If I posted what I earn I cannot imagine how weak of a move that would be nice bait

as i thought, no cojones

dude many times you've bragged about venture capitalism and how you follow it in our multiple capitalism vs communism debates that we've had on this forum before...

you're just a faux contrarian and bullshitter most of the time on this forum

Arquitecto wrote:

Myesyats wrote:

El Gunner wrote:^^modernity at what cost? who is to say things are overall better and spiritually healthier than it was when people believed in Gods, and strong forms of Patriarchy ran societies...

i just see it as part of evolution.... a thousand years from now, if we make it that far, things will look completely different than it does now... that's just how it goes, i guess

I see this as a beautiful although very idealized outlook and viewpoint. The harsh reality is that life is incredibly cruel. Do you know what was the infant death rate before modern medicine???  up to 50% in pre-industrial Europe as one example!!

You may not have been alive if it weren't for it.

Basically before modern medicine and technology every day was a struggle and a fight for resources, not a fairytale by any means

Exactly. Only the brainless conflate modern medicine paid by lobbies as an overall glitch against medicine.

Braincel thinking:"Science tells me these days its okay to be fat its okay to stick to a plastic and soy laden Vegan diet therefore science bad" not knowing Science is not a diety it's a form of determinism.


Therefore if it's done incorrectly that isn't science it's heavily skewed.

MF if you cut a cut on your finger back then you'd be cooked and die off.

Its been one of the worlds leading advancements and its not even close.
Like why tf is this even being explained

because one of two things:
either you are dumb, or you're just acting dumb instead of understanding what i'm saying, you and Myspacecats are insinuating stuff that i'm not saying

El Gunner wrote:

Arquitecto wrote:

El Gunner wrote:Arquitecto always bragging about his venture capitalism...
tell us actually in what business you started up yourself, how much you make, what hours you work, and what assets you own... and we'll be the judge if it's all going as rosey as you make it sound

Nowhere have I mentioned venture capitalism or capitalism. Doesn't mean Capitalism isn't King and you can't provide any argument against that.

If I posted what I earn I cannot imagine how weak of a move that would be nice bait

as i thought, no cojones

dude many times you've bragged about venture capitalism and how you follow it in our multiple capitalism vs communism debates that we've had on this forum before...

you're just a faux contrarian and bullshitter most of the time on this forum

So apparently posting what I earn to flex on the middle class means I have no cajones.

The fact that you ever believed in Communism, a universally laughed at concept that quite literally never worked, is hilarious.

Find me a post where I "bragged" about venture capitalism unless your strawmanning what someone says is taking itself nuclear. You can't, or won't.

Your posts are generally filled with idealisms and romanticisations without any tangible facts at all. No one here truly takes them seriously. Touch grass or gtfo

El Gunner wrote:

Arquitecto wrote:

Myesyats wrote:

I see this as a beautiful although very idealized outlook and viewpoint. The harsh reality is that life is incredibly cruel. Do you know what was the infant death rate before modern medicine???  up to 50% in pre-industrial Europe as one example!!

You may not have been alive if it weren't for it.

Basically before modern medicine and technology every day was a struggle and a fight for resources, not a fairytale by any means

Exactly. Only the brainless conflate modern medicine paid by lobbies as an overall glitch against medicine.

Braincel thinking:"Science tells me these days its okay to be fat its okay to stick to a plastic and soy laden Vegan diet therefore science bad" not knowing Science is not a diety it's a form of determinism.


Therefore if it's done incorrectly that isn't science it's heavily skewed.

MF if you cut a cut on your finger back then you'd be cooked and die off.

Its been one of the worlds leading advancements and its not even close.
Like why tf is this even being explained

because one of two things:
either you are dumb, or you're just acting dumb instead of understanding what i'm saying, you and Myspacecats are insinuating stuff that i'm not saying

You're not actually saying anything. Thats what Myestats and I will both tell you. It's a constant contradiction of each other thats the entire premise of why your points simply cannot be taken seriously. Unless you expect me to read your mind then yes I'll try.

yea, so you're stupid good chat

Ad hominem your latest logical fallacy.

EG: Posts a bunch of intangibles and nonsense.

GL poster responds with decorum in counter

EG: Huh Huh you're stupid.

Like clockwork.

El Gunner wrote:

Myesyats wrote:

El Gunner wrote:
again, this is just a very eurocentric, scientific-centric viewpoint... living longer doesn't necessarily mean better life

What if true spirituality awaits us somewhere else in the universe and obviously reaching those distances isn't possible without technological advancement

What if modern science allows for the explanation of god himself?

i'm not denying any of these things

i'm not saying we should go back to living in huts and hunting with sticks and stones... i'm just saying, evolution doesn't necessarily mean "better"... and i'm just saying stop being arrogant, racist and one-dimensional in your thinking that you truly believe modern-day Western and Eurocentric society is the best humanity has done up until this point

I think it's not my belief but just the objective truth,  its not perfect but it is true that people nowadays are the healthiest, happiest and have the highest quality of life on average in recorded history.

At what point in history has "society done better"? I mean, we're aiming to become a multiplanetary species in this century.

Arquitecto wrote:
Exactly. Only the brainless conflate modern medicine paid by lobbies as an overall glitch against medicine.

Braincel thinking:"Science tells me these days its okay to be fat its okay to stick to a plastic and soy laden Vegan diet therefore science bad" not knowing Science is not a diety it's a form of determinism.


Therefore if it's done incorrectly that isn't science it's heavily skewed.

MF if you cut a cut on your finger back then you'd be cooked and die off.

Its been one of the worlds leading advancements and its not even close.
Like why tf is this even being explained

I can understand why people have such a view on modernity and the constant rat-race and people perpetually competing and striving to hoard wealth instead of living in the moment. I agree with El G on that level and I wish it wasn't like that.

But then I ask myself: why is all of this and technological advancement on this scale that we have today even possible? Because people don't have to worry about disease, food shortages, survival and devote their focus and energy toward research, development, creativity and innovation. When we learn history, we always talk about the rulers, aristocracy, war generals and the cream of the crop. But what about the rest?

If you despise the income inequality that we have today, imagine the 1% in the past. The 99% had nothing, not even food let alone running water or any clean water at all for most of the time. I recently read about how sanitary pads completely changed and infinitely improved women's lives and that was only a little over 100 years ago.

The sheer pace of modern life can be depressing it is clear. But idealizing the past is misdirected, because lord knows it was mostly awful and brutal. But I know where it is coming from and I do agree we should strive to place our values elsewhere in many regards.

Pedram wrote:

El Gunner wrote:

Myesyats wrote:

What if true spirituality awaits us somewhere else in the universe and obviously reaching those distances isn't possible without technological advancement

What if modern science allows for the explanation of god himself?

i'm not denying any of these things

i'm not saying we should go back to living in huts and hunting with sticks and stones... i'm just saying, evolution doesn't necessarily mean "better"... and i'm just saying stop being arrogant, racist and one-dimensional in your thinking that you truly believe modern-day Western and Eurocentric society is the best humanity has done up until this point

This problem of seeing your country or your continent as superior is also not exclusive to Europeans, Americans also use the term "American exceptionalism" to denote their superiority to the rest of the people on Earth.

Honestly if humans ever want to progress as a race they need to drop these fascistic ideas or we are just bound to repeat history.

It's you who is making scientific/technological progress about race

McLewis wrote:Regarding Britain's colonization in the East. Colonization that yields positive results is still the result of something being forced on the native population. I mean, Japan rapidly modernized under Meiji and that came after nearly 2 centuries of Europeans (then Americans) casually and openly threatening them to open themselves up to trade or be destroyed and then colonized. It's a real instructive that the net result of the "positive" colonization becomes the dominant narrative yet this isn't the case when the net results have been decidedly negative. That's when blame starts to get shifted and the defensiveness sets in.

And let me be clear about something - The reality is back then (as it was in the centuries and millennia before) is might made right and if you were strong enough to fight off colonization, you did and you could write your own story about it. If not, the best you could hope for was to become like Hong Kong (as you mentioned Sports) and then deal with the revisionist history of the victors. At worst? Well that's why we're talking about this subject.

There's more nuance. The only time "occupation" becomes a concern is when the people are oppressed... such as the Uyghur in China, Kurds in Turkey, etc. Otherwise, these geographies become a region within a country.

Hong Kong never saw the British as occupiers. In fact, the people of Hong Kong did not want the UK administration to leave. Not a single one of them. I was there during the handoff and Hong Kong citizens were terrified of their future under Chinese rule.... and rightfully so as we now know.

Another example is Bangladesh. If the people had a choice, all of them would have remained part of India (Bengal Province under British rule). Bangladesh remains a disaster while West Bengal is now one of the fastest-growing economic provinces of India. People from Bangladesh are going to India searching for a better life.

As with everything, I'd be very careful labeling things simply without full knowledge.

Pedram wrote:

futbol wrote:
I also have no sympathy for the Palis. The Jews were occupied with developing Quantum Mechanics more than 100 years ago, the arabs in 2024 knock their head against the ground 5 times a day, put their women in full body clothing because someone else might look at their hair and go mass suiciding at 50° Celcius during Mekka pilgrimage. No wonder one has the technological and political might to fuck over the other. That's how Darwin works in a nutshell.

"Chauvinism is the unreasonable belief in the superiority or dominance of one's own group or people, who are seen as strong and virtuous, while others are considered weak, unworthy, or inferior."

@Myesyats You're simply blind if you can't see what the far-right advocate for.

When you take this dangerous ideology to its logical conclusion you get eugenics and mass genocide of "inferiors". last time it was the Jews who people like Futbol blamed for their economic shortcomings, now it's Arabs and brown people taking their jobs, lowering their wages, stealing their social security, committing crimes etc etc. same also applies to incels blaming women for not getting sex, like i said direct pipelines between these groups.

Truth is people on the far-right can never see the root cause of their problems which is the broken capitalist system, they are only capable of punching down and blaming minorities for their own failures.

Im against colonization lol, its obviously wrong. Im just saying it's not the root cause of all evil in the world, and people still make conscious, independent choices. And europeans didn't "invent" colonization either. Countries have been invaded and subjugated by others throughout all history, including European nations by other European nations. And examples of thriving countries that were colonized are living proof, colonization doesnt define them entirely