The Racism Thread

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Post by Myesyats Fri Aug 06, 2021 10:37 am

People in homogenous countries dont really care about not offending other cultures, I've noticed that most people are indifferent to such matters that clearly seem much less trivial to minorities. Obviously nobody would posts such stuff on an official account, that is a terrible mistake on their part. But people dont walk on their toes around in regular life not trying to offend other cultures. People care about what affects them, really
Thats my view in general about the average person, the jjuve marketing team should have known better because they also reach out to the asian football audience. Life outside social media bubbles is not as black and white as it would seem.

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Post by El Gunner Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:09 am

that JjuveWomen tweet was hilarious in so many ways lmao
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Post by Warrior Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:56 pm

@McLewis wrote:
@Warrior wrote:We live in era of woke capitalism i don't think Juve has anything to gain from offending asians. It makes no sense

The twitter staff is always trying to look cute/funny and here's another failed attempt. Bash them for being racist if you want, the post effectively was. But by all logic it was clumsy more than vicious

Sorry not being european yet it's my club we talk about so.....


No, we're not going to blame this on "woke capitalism. Whatever that is.

Capitalism has its faults, but it didn't drive this post into existence.

And no, I'm not going to accept this as "clumsiness". This is always the excuse when a European displays their racism for the world to see. It's either "ignorance" or a "bad joke". It's never malicious. It's never intentionally hurtful. No one ever takes responsibility for their actions. No one ever holds themselves or others accountable. It's a pathetic cop out and I won't have it.

Racism is inherently malicious. Ignorance does not preclude it from that fact. She had a choice here. She didn't have to put that cone on her head and she sure as hell didn't have to slant her eyes. She chose to do both. And she did it willingly. There was nothing clumsy about it.

Is it my vocabulary makes it look like i excuse posting such picture ? Because my point was not that

By woke capitalism, a concept i discussed with you before btw, i meant if somebody at Juve really wanted to offend asians there would be red flags everywhere. There is everything to lose by acting that way. But they still went for it. Agnelli might be delusional but he is not suicidal. So yes, clumsy not vicious: it's Tokyo olympics, she pretends to be japanese, the intention was to be funny and get likes not to harm

On a objective point of view the italian social context is very bad if it can be assumed ok to share a racist picture publicly. Unthinkable for us north americans. As Serie A followers we already knew it was awful.

Racism is inherently malicious yes it's true. If for you the reasoning ends there, fair enough, the answer you already got it

Instead i think there various degrees of malice, it can be banter, it can be mockery, it can be discrimination, humiliation etc
It can also be no malice and trying to be cool, end up being unsensitive, such as this case in particular and other cases of cultural appropriation
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Post by Thimmy Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:06 pm

@McLewis wrote:
@Thimmy wrote:
@McLewis wrote:

What well-meaning intention could there be for something like this though?

We both agree it was racist. Racism's inherent intent is to harm its victims. Therefore, my read is her actions were intended to offend Asians given she was making fun of the way they look and what they wear in their culture. She sure as well wasn't honoring or appreciating their culture here.

I think the intention is very clear here. I'm curious as to why you appear to think there is ambiguity.


I didn't say it was well-meaning. I assume you know just as well as anyone else that racism or racial insensitivity doesn't exclusively occur because someone intends to harm someone else. It may unintentionally lead to that result, but we're not talking about slavery or Ku Klux Klan activity here.

I don't know what her intentions were, only she knows, but I've seen enough unintentional racism from culturally ignorant people to assume that she just thought she was being funny and witty, and might not have considered how Asians would feel about this poor attempt at a joke. And that's why I pointed out that there needs to be a clear distinction between acts that are perceived to be racially offensive like, cultural appropriation, and blatant, unapologetic discrimination based on skin color or ethnicity.


Ok now I'm thoroughly confused. Which of those acts do you believe this was?

It's neither, but it's closer to cultural appropriation than blatant racism with the intention to hurt or offend. Don't you agree? I don't understand why you think racism is so black and white. I think the benefit of the doubt is warranted here based on the context and situation. I don't know where you get the "automatic" from. Are you referring to a specific example? I definitely do agree with you that the club should have known better than to publish that image, it's quite baffling that they went ahead with it, but I wouldn't personally assume or accuse the girl of being a conscious racist, purely based on this one, offensive behavior. The club's staff should've known better. I have no clue why they didn't.

I have absolutely no clue why people who very clearly have racially abused others automatically get the benefit of the doubt in situations like this. What specifically has she said or done to deserve it here? I truly don't get it. Make it make sense.

I don't know what to say, really. You make it sound as if she curb stomps people of color for fun, and I'm irrationally trying to defend her for it. If she actively undermines or discriminates against racial minorities while knowing the consequences of it, then no one will doubt her intentions. What she did was wrong, but I don't think it's an indication of that kind of behavior. I'll flip it around. What has she said or done to deserve your irredeemable racist tag? You're assuming greater guilt than this isolated situation warrants. You're living in a bubble, if you think all acts of racial discrimination is intentionally hurtful.

She doesn't get to be "unintentionally racist" or "culturally ignorant" in this day and age. I'm having none of that. That excuse may have been accepted more generally 40 or 50 years ago, but we live in a world with information on anything and everything readily at our finger tips. She didn't even think that her "poor attempt at a joke" or her trying to be funny or witty could possible be taken the wrong way be Asians and other POC. Neither did the photographer. Neither did the Social Media Manager for the Juve Women's Twitter account. That's 3 people that could've done the work (literally a quick Google or discussion with someone Asian, I don't know) to make sure this was ok to post, but none of them did it. I said something similar to this when one of the Italian newspapers posted that horrendous front page headline of Lukaku and Smalling. I said it when the FIGC decided to decorate its offices with portraits of chimpanzees. In all of those instances, there had to have been multiple levels of approvals before the public were made aware. Yet every level saw no issues. Why? Those who are used being in positions of cultural privilege often do not concern themselves with what they perceive as "inferior cultures" may think about their actions or words.  It literally doesn't register at all. They never had to worry about it during their early development. It's tempting to chalk this up to lack of exposure due to growing up and living in a homogenous society, but that's not an out I'm going to give here. Again, we live in an age of unprecedented knowledge. There is just no excuse for such ignorance.

I think you're conflating all parties involved with a shared guilt, but if anyone should've know better in all of this, it's the people who publicized the image. As much as I'd like to think that they'll know better after this, I've seen enough ignorance regarding race interactions and social etiquette, to know that some people just don't live in an environment where their surroundings give them a reason to care. Juve's publicist/SM manager definitely should know better, and it would be in everyone's best interest if she's educated on the topic following this incident, but I wouldn't assume that it will happen.

We do live in the age of information, but even if most of us have access to the same things, we don't all have a reason to access the same things. I assume that's why you specifically asked for European opinions.


@McLewis wrote:Those who are used being in positions of cultural privilege often do not concern themselves with what they perceive as "inferior cultures" may think about their actions or words.  It literally doesn't register at all. They never had to worry about it during their early development. It's tempting to chalk this up to lack of exposure due to growing up and living in a homogenous society, but that's not an out I'm going to give here.

I believe I've mentioned this before, but I grew up in a very homogenous village in Norway, where the majority of immigrants were white people from Eastern European countries. The terms "black" and "white" as references to people, did not exist in Norway back then, and the view on race and nationality in the village I grew up was so different from how I know most other countries, as well as modern day Norway to view it, that I wouldn't know where to start in explaining it.

There were 2 non-white people in my elementary school. A Chinese girl, and a Vietnamese girl who was in the same class as me. Her name was Ngoc (pronounced Na-o), which coincidentally rhymes with the Norwegian word for hot chocolate (kakao). She had a slightly darker complexion than everyone else, and often when I saw her, I would yell "nao, kakao!" as a reference to her darker skin color. I never thought of her as inferior in any way, I just thought I was being funny and clever. I even assumed that she thought the same, which is why I kept repeating it. This was in 1st or 2nd grade.

And I kept saying it until one day, when it made her cry. I never mentioned it again after that. I still remember how confused I felt when I witnessed her profound reaction. I'm not saying I'm like everyone else, but you seem to be demanding a moderate level of understanding in regard to racial interactions, without recognizing that some people live in environments where they have no reason to learn what may or may not offend people of other races. You can disagree with that all you want, I'm sure we both agree that it's a disagreeable predisposition for people who become more exposed to other cultures and ethnicities later in life, but it's a reality, and if you can't distinguish between that and ill intent, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Not appearing to be a racist doofus should be a good enough reason for someone to want to educate themselves about these things, but some people aren't exposed enough to other races, or situations in which they risk being racially insensitive, so the consequences of their actions may not even cross their mind. Therefore, I do believe isolated instances of such behavior can sometimes warrant the benefit of the doubt. Ignoring the context doesn't benefit anyone.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Fri Aug 06, 2021 10:36 pm

@Thimmy wrote:
@McLewis wrote:
@Thimmy wrote:


I didn't say it was well-meaning. I assume you know just as well as anyone else that racism or racial insensitivity doesn't exclusively occur because someone intends to harm someone else. It may unintentionally lead to that result, but we're not talking about slavery or Ku Klux Klan activity here.

I don't know what her intentions were, only she knows, but I've seen enough unintentional racism from culturally ignorant people to assume that she just thought she was being funny and witty, and might not have considered how Asians would feel about this poor attempt at a joke. And that's why I pointed out that there needs to be a clear distinction between acts that are perceived to be racially offensive like, cultural appropriation, and blatant, unapologetic discrimination based on skin color or ethnicity.


Ok now I'm thoroughly confused. Which of those acts do you believe this was?

It's neither, but it's closer to cultural appropriation than blatant racism with the intention to hurt or offend. Don't you agree? I don't understand why you think racism is so black and white. I think the benefit of the doubt is warranted here based on the context and situation. I don't know where you get the "automatic" from. Are you referring to a specific example? I definitely do agree with you that the club should have known better than to publish that image, it's quite baffling that they went ahead with it, but I wouldn't personally assume or accuse the girl of being a conscious racist, purely based on this one, offensive behavior. The club's staff should've known better. I have no clue why they didn't.

I have absolutely no clue why people who very clearly have racially abused others automatically get the benefit of the doubt in situations like this. What specifically has she said or done to deserve it here? I truly don't get it. Make it make sense.

I don't know what to say, really. You make it sound as if she curb stomps people of color for fun, and I'm irrationally trying to defend her for it. If she actively undermines or discriminates against racial minorities while knowing the consequences of it, then no one will doubt her intentions. What she did was wrong, but I don't think it's an indication of that kind of behavior. I'll flip it around. What has she said or done to deserve your irredeemable racist tag? You're assuming greater guilt than this isolated situation warrants. You're living in a bubble, if you think all acts of racial discrimination is intentionally hurtful.

She doesn't get to be "unintentionally racist" or "culturally ignorant" in this day and age. I'm having none of that. That excuse may have been accepted more generally 40 or 50 years ago, but we live in a world with information on anything and everything readily at our finger tips. She didn't even think that her "poor attempt at a joke" or her trying to be funny or witty could possible be taken the wrong way be Asians and other POC. Neither did the photographer. Neither did the Social Media Manager for the Juve Women's Twitter account. That's 3 people that could've done the work (literally a quick Google or discussion with someone Asian, I don't know) to make sure this was ok to post, but none of them did it. I said something similar to this when one of the Italian newspapers posted that horrendous front page headline of Lukaku and Smalling. I said it when the FIGC decided to decorate its offices with portraits of chimpanzees. In all of those instances, there had to have been multiple levels of approvals before the public were made aware. Yet every level saw no issues. Why? Those who are used being in positions of cultural privilege often do not concern themselves with what they perceive as "inferior cultures" may think about their actions or words.  It literally doesn't register at all. They never had to worry about it during their early development. It's tempting to chalk this up to lack of exposure due to growing up and living in a homogenous society, but that's not an out I'm going to give here. Again, we live in an age of unprecedented knowledge. There is just no excuse for such ignorance.

I think you're conflating all parties involved with a shared guilt, but if anyone should've know better in all of this, it's the people who publicized the image. As much as I'd like to think that they'll know better after this, I've seen enough ignorance regarding race interactions and social etiquette, to know that some people just don't live in an environment where their surroundings give them a reason to care. Juve's publicist/SM manager definitely should know better, and it would be in everyone's best interest if she's educated on the topic following this incident, but I wouldn't assume that it will happen.

We do live in the age of information, but even if most of us have access to the same things, we don't all have a reason to access the same things. I assume that's why you specifically asked for European opinions.


@McLewis wrote:Those who are used being in positions of cultural privilege often do not concern themselves with what they perceive as "inferior cultures" may think about their actions or words.  It literally doesn't register at all. They never had to worry about it during their early development. It's tempting to chalk this up to lack of exposure due to growing up and living in a homogenous society, but that's not an out I'm going to give here.

I believe I've mentioned this before, but I grew up in a very homogenous village in Norway, where the majority of immigrants were white people from Eastern European countries. The terms "black" and "white" as references to people, did not exist in Norway back then, and the view on race and nationality in the village I grew up was so different from how I know most other countries, as well as modern day Norway to view it, that I wouldn't know where to start in explaining it.

There were 2 non-white people in my elementary school. A Chinese girl, and a Vietnamese girl who was in the same class as me. Her name was Ngoc (pronounced Na-o), which coincidentally rhymes with the Norwegian word for hot chocolate (kakao). She had a slightly darker complexion than everyone else, and often when I saw her, I would yell "nao, kakao!" as a reference to her darker skin color. I never thought of her as inferior in any way, I just thought I was being funny and clever. I even assumed that she thought the same, which is why I kept repeating it. This was in 1st or 2nd grade.

And I kept saying it until one day, when it made her cry. I never mentioned it again after that. I still remember how confused I felt when I witnessed her profound reaction. I'm not saying I'm like everyone else, but you seem to be demanding a moderate level of understanding in regard to racial interactions, without recognizing that some people live in environments where they have no reason to learn what may or may not offend people of other races. You can disagree with that all you want, I'm sure we both agree that it's a disagreeable predisposition for people who become more exposed to other cultures and ethnicities later in life, but it's a reality, and if you can't distinguish between that and ill intent, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Not appearing to be a racist doofus should be a good enough reason for someone to want to educate themselves about these things, but some people aren't exposed enough to other races, or situations in which they risk being racially insensitive, so the consequences of their actions may not even cross their mind. Therefore, I do believe isolated instances of such behavior can sometimes warrant the benefit of the doubt. Ignoring the context doesn't benefit anyone.


And then there are people who just think it's funny to be racist dicks

A lot of people. Let's not forget those.
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Post by McLewis Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:38 pm

@Casciavit wrote:
@McLewis wrote:Ok Europeans of GL, now is your chance to explain to me how this was not racist and was entirely an innocent joke that was not intended to offend Asian folks:



Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd go....


I think anyone who has travelled to different countries and actually immersed themself with the locals and actually spoken to them behind closed doors using slang, will tell you the vast majority of people in the world are racist/xenophobic (both ignorantly and knowingly). Then when you try to bring up instances of that to those people they justify it by telling you that's not what they meant. Ultimately this stuff is so ingrained in their culture especially with older people or those who aren't educated or haven't stepped outside of their country.

I've seen this first hand in Mediterranean, Middle Eastern, Scandinavian, and North American cultures. It's even present in a diverse country like Canada where all my neighbours are of different ethnicity. It's everywhere.

The old I can understand. They come from a completely different era. One of less education. But the youngsters? The Milennials and Gen-Zers still doing this shit? Nah, they don't get a pass from me. Education is readily available to all who seek it nowadays. They don't have to be like their nonnas and nonnos. They choose to be and then feign ignorance when called out or gaslight their way out of it, as you mentioned. The best way to combat this is with diversity. By turning these homogenous places into melting pots like the one I grew up in. And many of these countries are fighting against it very hard.

@Babun wrote:@McLewis
The words racism and nazi are used inflationary so often that they've lost their real meaning in the language. That woman in the photo is a xenophobic, ignorant bitch who thinks it's ok to make fun of the looks of other people. Those types of people exist all around the world in every population. All you're going to achieve by persecuting them would be illogical resistance from them. The way to go for these type of people is to create more opportunities to get to know people from other places and proper education because most xenophobes are people who had little contact with cultures other than their own.
Racism like a specific problem is prevalent in the US, France, Saudi Arabia, China and Africa right now. We have little in common with the last three cultures but more with the US and a lot more with France. Your racism problem is very specific to your country. If at all, I think for us racism in France is more relevant for the ways to go in the future. To be frank, the way the US have handled its racism problem up until now is a colossal failure. I hope our politicians/culture won't import/culturally appropriate US problems and their "solutions" over here.

On the topic of the difference between Xenophobia and Racism:
Someone already bothered to explain with a wall of text, I'll just leave the link here.
http://www.differencebetween.net/language/difference-between-xenophobia-and-racism/

I don't disagree with your proposition on how to get through to these people. The problem is the opportunities for this to happen are limited, particularly in women's football and particularly in Serie A women's football, just about all of the Italian players stay in Italy. So it's easier said than done.

I see no real difference in the racism of the US vs that of other majority white countries. People keep forgetting that America was a European colony before it was its own nation. The Caucasian population of the US, throughout its history, has been near 100% European. That means every racist thing this country has ever done to non-white people was something they learned from their European ancestors. So American racism is merely another shade of European racism. Same with racism in other former European colonies turned nations. I truly don't understand the point of separating them. They are forever linked.

I don't disagree with you at all on how we've handled racism here up till now. The Civil Rights movement is championed as a major victory for anti-racism. It was an unfinished project because nearly all of its major leaders were murdered or driven from power....by racists. As such, I consider it a failure. One of the biggest victories of racists has been convincing this country that we have achieved something that we truly haven't: racial equality.

@Myesyats wrote:People in homogenous countries dont really care about not offending other cultures,  I've noticed that most people are indifferent to such matters that clearly seem much less trivial to minorities. Obviously nobody would posts such stuff on an official account, that is a terrible mistake on their part. But people dont walk on their toes around in regular life not trying to offend other cultures. People care about what affects them, really
Thats my view in general about the average person, the jjuve marketing team should have known better because they also reach out to the asian football audience. Life outside social media bubbles is not as black and white as it would seem.

It's hard to care about something one has no real concept of. Something one hasn't personally experienced viscerally. One can be indifferent and educated on matters not directly related to them and theirs.

And you make a good point, even if Inter and Milan are more popular in Asia. Juve still have a massive following out there and shit like this alienates those fans.
@Warrior wrote:
@McLewis wrote:
@Warrior wrote:We live in era of woke capitalism i don't think Juve has anything to gain from offending asians. It makes no sense

The twitter staff is always trying to look cute/funny and here's another failed attempt. Bash them for being racist if you want, the post effectively was. But by all logic it was clumsy more than vicious

Sorry not being european yet it's my club we talk about so.....


No, we're not going to blame this on "woke capitalism. Whatever that is.

Capitalism has its faults, but it didn't drive this post into existence.

And no, I'm not going to accept this as "clumsiness". This is always the excuse when a European displays their racism for the world to see. It's either "ignorance" or a "bad joke". It's never malicious. It's never intentionally hurtful. No one ever takes responsibility for their actions. No one ever holds themselves or others accountable. It's a pathetic cop out and I won't have it.

Racism is inherently malicious. Ignorance does not preclude it from that fact. She had a choice here. She didn't have to put that cone on her head and she sure as hell didn't have to slant her eyes. She chose to do both. And she did it willingly. There was nothing clumsy about it.

Is it my vocabulary makes it look like i excuse posting such picture ? Because my point was not that

By woke capitalism, a concept i discussed with you before btw, i meant if somebody at Juve really wanted to offend asians there would be red flags everywhere. There is everything to lose by acting that way. But they still went for it. Agnelli might be delusional but he is not suicidal. So yes, clumsy not vicious: it's Tokyo olympics, she pretends to be japanese, the intention was to be funny and get likes not to harm

On a objective point of view the italian social context is very bad if it can be assumed ok to share a racist picture publicly. Unthinkable for us north americans. As Serie A followers we already knew it was awful.

Racism is inherently malicious yes it's true. If for you the reasoning ends there, fair enough, the answer you already got it

Instead i think there various degrees of malice, it can be banter, it can be mockery, it can be discrimination, humiliation etc
It can also be no malice and trying to be cool, end up being unsensitive, such as this case in particular and other cases of cultural appropriation

I had to go back and look for that conversation and yes, I recall it now. My point is that the environment she exists in created the conditions for which she felt she could disrespect another culture and have it passed off as a joke though. Such an environment appears to tolerate that type of racism. So it's no surprise she felt comfortable enough to do what she did. Such an environment is toxic.

As for the malicious nature, I dont' really make any nuanced distinctions. Racism is malicious. Period. Even in trying to be funny, at whose expense was her joke? Asian people. Who was she trying to be funny for? Her (mostly Italian) teammates and fans. Would she have done this specifically in Japan had Italy sent a team to the Olympics? I doubt it. She did it because she felt safe in doing so. She did it for the people she just knew would get this "joke", even if came at the expense of others. That is pure, simple malice. There are no degrees to it, for me.
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Post by Arquitecto Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:26 am

I totally get the general disgruntled opinion against "woke" culture to the over-sensitivity of certain issues to over course the terms of racism to xenophobia to Phobias themselves being lost in translation and put out of context.

But racial intoned jokes simply aren't funny. They lack wit and nuance and may have been funny at a time but you cannot really evolve upon such jokes given a race itself does not exactly evolve, does it, so therefore the jokes dont.

Its also poor form to make racist jokes given many of them are based also on culture.

So to clarify here the Juventus player is more so making her witless "joke" against Chinese culture given the stereotype of that cone hat along with the old Western slant of the eyes imitation so it is not technically racist per say even if that is being pedantic but it should not in this day in age be accepted.

Why? Promoting it fosters other racial prejudiced tones and as a whole racist jokes or comedy just simply doesnt really add much to anything.

We dont have to speak as people from mono-cultural societies or multi-cultural as even saying Asians who are not offended by this means little, for many are and if we were in their shoes it would not sound so funny, would it?


And it isn't about protecting their feelings but an evolved society with education and awareness simply will not display such banal humour as racism itself;

is due to a lack of education given the biological differences in a race (while they do exist) are too minimal to even pay attention to.

So all in all such forms of humour creates an environment in which racism can grow and even if it somehow does not, what does it add to it beyond low-hanging fruit comedy.

I do make crass and crude jokes at times, but my principle was always to do so in something that someone can control. Like their weight or hygiene or dress sense. Not their nose, height or of course: race.


And then a public team of Juve's stature making this public is just...a sign of their generally cringe new marketing scheme and whomever runs their women's account should be fired, to set an example.

All of this goes beyond free-speech and snowflakes and or SJW culture but what such humour or culture of it can promote in a society that is still fighting to eliminate what is really a basic problem that shouldn't exist anymore.
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Post by McLewis Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:47 am

@Thimmy wrote:
@McLewis wrote:
@Thimmy wrote:
@McLewis wrote:

What well-meaning intention could there be for something like this though?

We both agree it was racist. Racism's inherent intent is to harm its victims. Therefore, my read is her actions were intended to offend Asians given she was making fun of the way they look and what they wear in their culture. She sure as well wasn't honoring or appreciating their culture here.

I think the intention is very clear here. I'm curious as to why you appear to think there is ambiguity.


I didn't say it was well-meaning. I assume you know just as well as anyone else that racism or racial insensitivity doesn't exclusively occur because someone intends to harm someone else. It may unintentionally lead to that result, but we're not talking about slavery or Ku Klux Klan activity here.

I don't know what her intentions were, only she knows, but I've seen enough unintentional racism from culturally ignorant people to assume that she just thought she was being funny and witty, and might not have considered how Asians would feel about this poor attempt at a joke. And that's why I pointed out that there needs to be a clear distinction between acts that are perceived to be racially offensive like, cultural appropriation, and blatant, unapologetic discrimination based on skin color or ethnicity.


Ok now I'm thoroughly confused. Which of those acts do you believe this was?

It's neither, but it's closer to cultural appropriation than blatant racism with the intention to hurt or offend. Don't you agree? I don't understand why you think racism is so black and white. I think the benefit of the doubt is warranted here based on the context and situation. I don't know where you get the "automatic" from. Are you referring to a specific example? I definitely do agree with you that the club should have known better than to publish that image, it's quite baffling that they went ahead with it, but I wouldn't personally assume or accuse the girl of being a conscious racist, purely based on this one, offensive behavior. The club's staff should've known better. I have no clue why they didn't.

I have absolutely no clue why people who very clearly have racially abused others automatically get the benefit of the doubt in situations like this. What specifically has she said or done to deserve it here? I truly don't get it. Make it make sense.

I don't know what to say, really. You make it sound as if she curb stomps people of color for fun, and I'm irrationally trying to defend her for it. If she actively undermines or discriminates against racial minorities while knowing the consequences of it, then no one will doubt her intentions. What she did was wrong, but I don't think it's an indication of that kind of behavior. I'll flip it around. What has she said or done to deserve your irredeemable racist tag? You're assuming greater guilt than this isolated situation warrants. You're living in a bubble, if you think all acts of racial discrimination is intentionally hurtful.

She doesn't get to be "unintentionally racist" or "culturally ignorant" in this day and age. I'm having none of that. That excuse may have been accepted more generally 40 or 50 years ago, but we live in a world with information on anything and everything readily at our finger tips. She didn't even think that her "poor attempt at a joke" or her trying to be funny or witty could possible be taken the wrong way be Asians and other POC. Neither did the photographer. Neither did the Social Media Manager for the Juve Women's Twitter account. That's 3 people that could've done the work (literally a quick Google or discussion with someone Asian, I don't know) to make sure this was ok to post, but none of them did it. I said something similar to this when one of the Italian newspapers posted that horrendous front page headline of Lukaku and Smalling. I said it when the FIGC decided to decorate its offices with portraits of chimpanzees. In all of those instances, there had to have been multiple levels of approvals before the public were made aware. Yet every level saw no issues. Why? Those who are used being in positions of cultural privilege often do not concern themselves with what they perceive as "inferior cultures" may think about their actions or words.  It literally doesn't register at all. They never had to worry about it during their early development. It's tempting to chalk this up to lack of exposure due to growing up and living in a homogenous society, but that's not an out I'm going to give here. Again, we live in an age of unprecedented knowledge. There is just no excuse for such ignorance.

I think you're conflating all parties involved with a shared guilt, but if anyone should've know better in all of this, it's the people who publicized the image. As much as I'd like to think that they'll know better after this, I've seen enough ignorance regarding race interactions and social etiquette, to know that some people just don't live in an environment where their surroundings give them a reason to care. Juve's publicist/SM manager definitely should know better, and it would be in everyone's best interest if she's educated on the topic following this incident, but I wouldn't assume that it will happen.

We do live in the age of information, but even if most of us have access to the same things, we don't all have a reason to access the same things. I assume that's why you specifically asked for European opinions.


@McLewis wrote:Those who are used being in positions of cultural privilege often do not concern themselves with what they perceive as "inferior cultures" may think about their actions or words.  It literally doesn't register at all. They never had to worry about it during their early development. It's tempting to chalk this up to lack of exposure due to growing up and living in a homogenous society, but that's not an out I'm going to give here.

I believe I've mentioned this before, but I grew up in a very homogenous village in Norway, where the majority of immigrants were white people from Eastern European countries. The terms "black" and "white" as references to people, did not exist in Norway back then, and the view on race and nationality in the village I grew up was so different from how I know most other countries, as well as modern day Norway to view it, that I wouldn't know where to start in explaining it.

There were 2 non-white people in my elementary school. A Chinese girl, and a Vietnamese girl who was in the same class as me. Her name was Ngoc (pronounced Na-o), which coincidentally rhymes with the Norwegian word for hot chocolate (kakao). She had a slightly darker complexion than everyone else, and often when I saw her, I would yell "nao, kakao!" as a reference to her darker skin color. I never thought of her as inferior in any way, I just thought I was being funny and clever. I even assumed that she thought the same, which is why I kept repeating it. This was in 1st or 2nd grade.

And I kept saying it until one day, when it made her cry. I never mentioned it again after that. I still remember how confused I felt when I witnessed her profound reaction. I'm not saying I'm like everyone else, but you seem to be demanding a moderate level of understanding in regard to racial interactions, without recognizing that some people live in environments where they have no reason to learn what may or may not offend people of other races. You can disagree with that all you want, I'm sure we both agree that it's a disagreeable predisposition for people who become more exposed to other cultures and ethnicities later in life, but it's a reality, and if you can't distinguish between that and ill intent, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Not appearing to be a racist doofus should be a good enough reason for someone to want to educate themselves about these things, but some people aren't exposed enough to other races, or situations in which they risk being racially insensitive, so the consequences of their actions may not even cross their mind. Therefore, I do believe isolated instances of such behavior can sometimes warrant the benefit of the doubt. Ignoring the context doesn't benefit anyone.


It's neither, but it's closer to cultural appropriation than blatant racism with the intention to hurt or offend. Don't you agree? I don't understand why you think racism is so black and white. I think the benefit of the doubt is warranted here based on the context and situation. I don't know where you get the "automatic" from. Are you referring to a specific example? I definitely do agree with you that the club should have known better than to publish that image, it's quite baffling that they went ahead with it, but I wouldn't personally assume or accuse the girl of being a conscious racist, purely based on this one, offensive behavior. The club's staff should've known better. I have no clue why they didn't.

Like this player, you grew up in a homogenous society. You grew up in a place where differences were the source of jokes. I grew up in a melting pot of diversity, where differences were seen as a strength and something to be respected. We come from opposing houses of thought on this as a result.

I'll flip it around. What has she said or done to deserve your irredeemable racist tag? You're assuming greater guilt than this isolated situation warrants. You're living in a bubble, if you think all acts of racial discrimination is intentionally hurtful.

She will forever be known to me as the moron who made fun of Asian people in a racist matter.  As I said, she had a choice and she made a bad one. The consequence of that choice is that people will never let her forget about this. Whether you think that right or wrong is a different matter entirely.

The thing about racists is that if they are willing to do it once, they're going to do it again at some point. It's part of their personality. It will always be there. She may one day see the error in what she did in this tweet and she may indeed do her best to suppress those racist tendencies, but there always going to be there, lurking just beneath the surface. Push the right (or wrong) button and it'll resurface. I know this from first hand experience.

Basically - Once a racist, always a racist. If one doesn't want to carry that label for the rest of their lives, it's in their  very best interest to educate themselves and treat different cultures with respect. This is not hard and it's certainly not impossible. It merely takes effort that some would prefer to avoid by hiding behind ignorance, which is more convenient.

I think you're conflating all parties involved with a shared guilt, but if anyone should've know better in all of this, it's the people who publicized the image. As much as I'd like to think that they'll know better after this, I've seen enough ignorance regarding race interactions and social etiquette, to know that some people just don't live in an environment where their surroundings give them a reason to care. Juve's publicist/SM manager definitely should know better, and it would be in everyone's best interest if she's educated on the topic following this incident, but I wouldn't assume that it will happen.

We do live in the age of information, but even if most of us have access to the same things, we don't all have a reason to access the same things. I assume that's why you specifically asked for European opinions.

I disagree. All parties share guilt here. Everyone of them had a responsibility to represent this club in the best light. They failed. They all bear responsibility as a result.

What you said at the end there is why I don't think I'll ever understand the appeal of a homogenous society. Why wouldn't you want to learn about people different than your own? Even out of sheer, boredom-induced curiosity. That's a rhetorical question as you've already answered it, but I think that's mind-blowing. It's something I just can't quite compute.

I believe I've mentioned this before, but I grew up in a very homogenous village in Norway, where the majority of immigrants were white people from Eastern European countries. The terms "black" and "white" as references to people, did not exist in Norway back then, and the view on race and nationality in the village I grew up was so different from how I know most other countries, as well as modern day Norway to view it, that I wouldn't know where to start in explaining it.

There were 2 non-white people in my elementary school. A Chinese girl, and a Vietnamese girl who was in the same class as me. Her name was Ngoc (pronounced Na-o), which coincidentally rhymes with the Norwegian word for hot chocolate (kakao). She had a slightly darker complexion than everyone else, and often when I saw her, I would yell "nao, kakao!" as a reference to her darker skin color. I never thought of her as inferior in any way, I just thought I was being funny and clever. I even assumed that she thought the same, which is why I kept repeating it. This was in 1st or 2nd grade.

And I kept saying it until one day, when it made her cry. I never mentioned it again after that. I still remember how confused I felt when I witnessed her profound reaction. I'm not saying I'm like everyone else, but you seem to be demanding a moderate level of understanding in regard to racial interactions, without recognizing that some people live in environments where they have no reason to learn what may or may not offend people of other races. You can disagree with that all you want, I'm sure we both agree that it's a disagreeable predisposition for people who become more exposed to other cultures and ethnicities later in life, but it's a reality, and if you can't distinguish between that and ill intent, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Not appearing to be a racist doofus should be a good enough reason for someone to want to educate themselves about these things, but some people aren't exposed enough to other races, or situations in which they risk being racially insensitive, so the consequences of their actions may not even cross their mind. Therefore, I do believe isolated instances of such behavior can sometimes warrant the benefit of the doubt. Ignoring the context doesn't benefit anyone.

Yes, I recall you mentioning this. And I recall being unsurprised by it. Norway, as a country, is rather homogenous. That's Scandinavia in general.

Your interaction with the Vietnamese girl should've prompted an urge to want to learn about her culture in order to understand her better, as a person. Instead? Ridicule was the first impulse. Now you were a kid so such a deep line of critical thought would've been very abnormal. Ridicule is the default for all kids in all cultures. Their brains have not matured enough for that not to be the case. Fair enough. Did you ever seek answers to the confusion you felt? Did you ever find out why she reacted the way she did?

And I can distinguish between reality and ill intent. I can accept one and not accept the other. That is perfectly doable. Just because racism is a reality doesn't mean it has to be tolerated. It doesn't mean something shouldn't be done about it. That, I will never accept.[/quote]
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Post by Thimmy Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:02 pm

What I disagree with you about, is that you seem to use a "god of the gaps"- like train of thought to conclude that she must be racist, because that's what your intuition tells you, and the opposite has yet to be proven. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You're not providing any substantial arguments as to why she's definitely a racist, similarly to how CB and a few of our other, righteous progressives on here never provided any sensible arguments as to why they decided that C. Ronaldo definitely raped that girl he met at a night club. I'm not sure how we're supposed to find a middle ground in this discussion. Maybe our definitions of "racist" are different.

We've all agreed that what she did was wrong, but I generally don't understand how people can unapologetically jump to such drastic conclusions about someone. How much effort did you put into trying to understand her cultural environment before you decided to slam her with the willingly being racist tag? Actively suppressing her racist tendencies, once a racist, always a racist. You read a lot more than me from this single image. Maybe you're right in saying that homogenous societies are boredom and curiosity- inducing, but sometimes curiosity kills the cat.
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Post by futbol Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:10 pm

"Racism" indeed lost its meaning. People really think this woman hates Chinese and would put them into gas chambers if she could? You think that's how she ticks? Really? Bases on that gesture she did?

Misbehaving or having a weird sense of humour (yes, there are tons of "simple" people out there that find "ching chong" or "slit eyes" funny without actually meaning harm) isn't automatically racism.

The woke police should care more about Germany, UK, France, US sending war ships to the South Chinese seas instead of wasting their time shitposting on Twitter.

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Post by Warrior Sat Aug 07, 2021 9:14 pm

@McLewis wrote:
@Warrior wrote:
@McLewis wrote:


No, we're not going to blame this on "woke capitalism. Whatever that is.

Capitalism has its faults, but it didn't drive this post into existence.

And no, I'm not going to accept this as "clumsiness". This is always the excuse when a European displays their racism for the world to see. It's either "ignorance" or a "bad joke". It's never malicious. It's never intentionally hurtful. No one ever takes responsibility for their actions. No one ever holds themselves or others accountable. It's a pathetic cop out and I won't have it.

Racism is inherently malicious. Ignorance does not preclude it from that fact. She had a choice here. She didn't have to put that cone on her head and she sure as hell didn't have to slant her eyes. She chose to do both. And she did it willingly. There was nothing clumsy about it.

Is it my vocabulary makes it look like i excuse posting such picture ? Because my point was not that

By woke capitalism, a concept i discussed with you before btw, i meant if somebody at Juve really wanted to offend asians there would be red flags everywhere. There is everything to lose by acting that way. But they still went for it. Agnelli might be delusional but he is not suicidal. So yes, clumsy not vicious: it's Tokyo olympics, she pretends to be japanese, the intention was to be funny and get likes not to harm

On a objective point of view the italian social context is very bad if it can be assumed ok to share a racist picture publicly. Unthinkable for us north americans. As Serie A followers we already knew it was awful.

Racism is inherently malicious yes it's true. If for you the reasoning ends there, fair enough, the answer you already got it

Instead i think there various degrees of malice, it can be banter, it can be mockery, it can be discrimination, humiliation etc
It can also be no malice and trying to be cool, end up being unsensitive, such as this case in particular and other cases of cultural appropriation

I had to go back and look for that conversation and yes, I recall it now. My point is that the environment she exists in created the conditions for which she felt she could disrespect another culture and have it passed off as a joke though. Such an environment appears to tolerate that type of racism. So it's no surprise she felt comfortable enough to do what she did. Such an environment is toxic.

As for the malicious nature, I dont' really make any nuanced distinctions. Racism is malicious. Period. Even in trying to be funny, at whose expense was her joke? Asian people. Who was she trying to be funny for? Her (mostly Italian) teammates and fans. Would she have done this specifically in Japan had Italy sent a team to the Olympics? I doubt it. She did it because she felt safe in doing so. She did it for the people she just knew would get this "joke", even if came at the expense of others. That is pure, simple malice. There are no degrees to it, for me.

I really insist on the fact, on this day, a capitalist entity such as Juventus has everything to lose by bullying any culture. By showing yourself publicly as racist you only gain trouble. I know the club, its vision is international.

There is a reason why the picture was POSTED and not HIDDEN only for italians to have a laugh in locker room. Similarly as when Justin Trudeau wore a traditional indian costume during a visit there. He sure looked like a fool but clearly did not intend to be racist. A ridiculous display of enthusiasm, sorry i could not find better words. Those offended have the right to denounce but their feelings don't prevail over objective truth.

If you want to expand the debate further, how Italy is a bad environment that promote/tolerate racism and it explains (=/= excuse) such level of ignorance... yes, i am willing to listen and agree

But i disagree the manichean judgement and i don't come from homogenous society. Such background don't provide a superior insight although it can provide higher sensitivity on the topic. There is indeed degrees of malice depending on the intention.
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Post by Myesyats Sat Aug 07, 2021 10:08 pm

@futbol wrote:"Racism" indeed lost its meaning. People really think this woman hates Chinese and would put them into gas chambers if she could? You think that's how she ticks? Really? Bases on that gesture she did?

Misbehaving or having a weird sense of humour (yes, there are tons of "simple" people out there that find "ching chong" or "slit eyes" funny without actually meaning harm) isn't automatically racism.

The woke police should care more about Germany, UK, France, US sending war ships to the South Chinese seas instead of wasting their time shitposting on Twitter.

slanty eyes > warships in the open seas

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Post by VivaStPauli Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:10 am

@futbol wrote:"Racism" indeed lost its meaning. People really think this woman hates Chinese and would put them into gas chambers if she could? You think that's how she ticks? Really? Bases on that gesture she did?

Misbehaving or having a weird sense of humour (yes, there are tons of "simple" people out there that find "ching chong" or "slit eyes" funny without actually meaning harm) isn't automatically racism.

The woke police should care more about Germany, UK, France, US sending war ships to the South Chinese seas instead of wasting their time shitposting on Twitter.


It might just be semantics, but I'd argue that even if you don't mean harm, the act is still racist.
I would however agree with you that people might commit racists acts out of ignorance without themselves actually being racist.
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Post by McLewis Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:13 pm

@Thimmy wrote:What I disagree with you about, is that you seem to use a "god of the gaps"- like train of thought to conclude that she must be racist, because that's what your intuition tells you, and the opposite has yet to be proven. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You're not providing any substantial arguments as to why she's definitely a racist, similarly to how CB and a few of our other, righteous progressives on here never provided any sensible arguments as to why they decided that C. Ronaldo definitely raped that girl he met at a night club. I'm not sure how we're supposed to find a middle ground in this discussion. Maybe our definitions of "racist" are different.

We've all agreed that what she did was wrong, but I generally don't understand how people can unapologetically jump to such drastic conclusions about someone. How much effort did you put into trying to understand her cultural environment before you decided to slam her with the willingly being racist tag? Actively suppressing her racist tendencies, once a racist, always a racist. You read a lot more than me from this single image. Maybe you're right in saying that homogenous societies are boredom and curiosity- inducing, but sometimes curiosity kills the cat.

Her actions speak for themselves. I do not need to provide any further argument. You see her actions as a bad joke. I see it as offensive to an entire culture. Our respective upbringings have formed our worldview on this topic.

@Warrior wrote:
@McLewis wrote:
@Warrior wrote:
@McLewis wrote:



No, we're not going to blame this on "woke capitalism. Whatever that is.

Capitalism has its faults, but it didn't drive this post into existence.

And no, I'm not going to accept this as "clumsiness". This is always the excuse when a European displays their racism for the world to see. It's either "ignorance" or a "bad joke". It's never malicious. It's never intentionally hurtful. No one ever takes responsibility for their actions. No one ever holds themselves or others accountable. It's a pathetic cop out and I won't have it.

Racism is inherently malicious. Ignorance does not preclude it from that fact. She had a choice here. She didn't have to put that cone on her head and she sure as hell didn't have to slant her eyes. She chose to do both. And she did it willingly. There was nothing clumsy about it.

Is it my vocabulary makes it look like i excuse posting such picture ? Because my point was not that

By woke capitalism, a concept i discussed with you before btw, i meant if somebody at Juve really wanted to offend asians there would be red flags everywhere. There is everything to lose by acting that way. But they still went for it. Agnelli might be delusional but he is not suicidal. So yes, clumsy not vicious: it's Tokyo olympics, she pretends to be japanese, the intention was to be funny and get likes not to harm

On a objective point of view the italian social context is very bad if it can be assumed ok to share a racist picture publicly. Unthinkable for us north americans. As Serie A followers we already knew it was awful.

Racism is inherently malicious yes it's true. If for you the reasoning ends there, fair enough, the answer you already got it

Instead i think there various degrees of malice, it can be banter, it can be mockery, it can be discrimination, humiliation etc
It can also be no malice and trying to be cool, end up being unsensitive, such as this case in particular and other cases of cultural appropriation

I had to go back and look for that conversation and yes, I recall it now. My point is that the environment she exists in created the conditions for which she felt she could disrespect another culture and have it passed off as a joke though. Such an environment appears to tolerate that type of racism. So it's no surprise she felt comfortable enough to do what she did. Such an environment is toxic.

As for the malicious nature, I dont' really make any nuanced distinctions. Racism is malicious. Period. Even in trying to be funny, at whose expense was her joke? Asian people. Who was she trying to be funny for? Her (mostly Italian) teammates and fans. Would she have done this specifically in Japan had Italy sent a team to the Olympics? I doubt it. She did it because she felt safe in doing so. She did it for the people she just knew would get this "joke", even if came at the expense of others. That is pure, simple malice. There are no degrees to it, for me.

I really insist on the fact, on this day, a capitalist entity such as Juventus has everything to lose by bullying any culture. By showing yourself publicly as racist you only gain trouble. I know the club, its vision is international.

There is a reason why the picture was POSTED and not HIDDEN only for italians to have a laugh in locker room. Similarly as when Justin Trudeau wore a traditional indian costume during a visit there. He sure looked like a fool but clearly did not intend to be racist. A ridiculous display of enthusiasm, sorry i could not find better words. Those offended have the right to denounce but their feelings don't prevail over objective truth.

If you want to expand the debate further, how Italy is a bad environment that promote/tolerate racism and it explains (=/= excuse) such level of ignorance... yes, i am willing to listen and agree

But i disagree the manichean judgement and i don't come from homogenous society. Such background don't provide a superior insight although it can provide higher sensitivity on the topic. There is indeed degrees of malice depending on the intention.

As I said, people like Trudeau and this player know there will be few to no actual consequences for their actions. They feel safe in that knowing that and it gives them the confidence to ridicule and make caricatures of other cultures with impunity. Their skin color (and social status) protect them from any truly damaging repercussions.

What they actually intended by their actions doesn't really matter to me. The very fact that they decided, on their own, to do it is an act of arrogance and privilege. It's an act completely devoid of humility and self-awareness.

In short, they don't read the room because they don't believe they have to. That's a hell of a privilege to have.
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Post by Thimmy Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:19 pm

I don't think our respective upbringings is what's shaped our differing views on this topic. I may be wrong, but I get the impression that you've met a very narrow range of people in your life, multi-cultural or not. Travel broadens the mind.
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Post by McLewis Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:28 pm

@futbol wrote:"Racism" indeed lost its meaning. People really think this woman hates Chinese and would put them into gas chambers if she could? You think that's how she ticks? Really? Bases on that gesture she did?

Misbehaving or having a weird sense of humour (yes, there are tons of "simple" people out there that find "ching chong" or "slit eyes" funny without actually meaning harm) isn't automatically racism.

The woke police should care more about Germany, UK, France, US sending war ships to the South Chinese seas instead of wasting their time shitposting on Twitter.


This player made her feelings about Asian people rather apparent by choosing to mock their appearance. As someone who has experienced racism, both passive racism and active racism, that's my read on this.

I'm going to assume you're referring to me when you say "the woke police". The very use of that term is derisive and denotes absolutely no effort to actually understand what it is to be "woke". I would venture you honestly don't even care, but I'll put in the effort anyway. Reach one, teach one and such.

This is likely all just entertainment for you, because it's not something you've personally had to experience. For me, this is not a joke. I find absolutely nothing about this humorous. Why? Because I grew up with people like this player saying and doing shit like this to people who looked like me, without consequences. We were told to just ignore it. To just accept it. Being "woke" is a rejection of that. That's literally all it ever has been. People that believe it to be what you believe it to be have made it far more than that.

So given the above, you can keep dismissing and deriding people like me as "the woke police", but just remember that every time you do that, you are putting down people who are refusing to accept that being racially abused is just part of their every day, lived experience and that they should do nothing to stop it. If that's who you want to be, by all means. Do not expect to not be called out on it though. I'll do it every single time and I won't always be as civil about it as I am right now. That's not a warning. That's just me being 100% with you.
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Post by McLewis Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:47 pm

@Thimmy wrote:I don't think our respective upbringings is what's shaped our differing views on this topic. I may be wrong, but I get the impression that you've met a very narrow range of people in your life, multi-cultural or not. Travel broadens the mind.


You are not entirely wrong, but partially. My lived experience is extremely American. I have not had much opportunity to travel outside of the US, just Canada and Mexico. I barely remember my last trip to Europe. I was far too young to have firm memories of it.

What you're wrong about is who you believe I've met. I think this bears emphasizing yet again. America is a melting pot. My neighbors, on all sides, are 1st and 2nd generation immigrants from South and Southeast Asia. They are wonderful people, from what I know of them. I have had childhood friends from various cultures since I was old enough to attend pre-school. There has never been a time in my life when I was surrounded 100% by people who looked only like me for a sustained amount of time. That is virtually impossible here. Through my various interests, work relationships and communities I'm a member of, I met and befriend people for all 6 continents. I have explored my ancestry and have even made contact with (extremely) distant blood relatives in West Africa. As money, time and control over COVID allow, travel will become more feasible.
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Post by Myesyats Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:50 am

was browsing through the net and saw this pic, completely unintentional but it made me chuckle Laughing

The Racism Thread - Page 13 20020110

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Post by Thimmy Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:00 am

@McLewis wrote:
@Thimmy wrote:I don't think our respective upbringings is what's shaped our differing views on this topic. I may be wrong, but I get the impression that you've met a very narrow range of people in your life, multi-cultural or not. Travel broadens the mind.


You are not entirely wrong, but partially. My lived experience is extremely American. I have not had much opportunity to travel outside of the US, just Canada and Mexico. I barely remember my last trip to Europe. I was far too young to have firm memories of it.

What you're wrong about is who you believe I've met. I think this bears emphasizing yet again. America is a melting pot. My neighbors, on all sides, are 1st and 2nd generation immigrants from South and Southeast Asia. They are wonderful people, from what I know of them. I have had childhood friends from various cultures since I was old enough to attend pre-school. There has never been a time in my life when I was surrounded 100% by people who looked only like me for a sustained amount of time. That is virtually impossible here. Through my various interests, work relationships and communities I'm a member of, I met and befriend people for all 6 continents. I have explored my ancestry and have even made contact with (extremely) distant blood relatives in West Africa. As money, time and control over COVID allow, travel will become more feasible.


I expected you to point to the multiculturalism of the US, which is why I said "multicultural, or not". I also have friends and acquaintances from all corners of the world. It doesn't make me unique. You may see Norway as very homogenous, and compared to the US, it's fair to say that most of this country is, but I live in one of the more multicultural cities here. Meeting people of different cultures in your own backyard, is not the same as traveling and meeting people abroad. If you had met a more diverse range of people, I don't think you'd boil every act of racial discrimination down to ill intent, or indications of inherent racism.
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Post by McLewis Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:16 pm

@Thimmy wrote:
@McLewis wrote:
@Thimmy wrote:I don't think our respective upbringings is what's shaped our differing views on this topic. I may be wrong, but I get the impression that you've met a very narrow range of people in your life, multi-cultural or not. Travel broadens the mind.


You are not entirely wrong, but partially. My lived experience is extremely American. I have not had much opportunity to travel outside of the US, just Canada and Mexico. I barely remember my last trip to Europe. I was far too young to have firm memories of it.

What you're wrong about is who you believe I've met. I think this bears emphasizing yet again. America is a melting pot. My neighbors, on all sides, are 1st and 2nd generation immigrants from South and Southeast Asia. They are wonderful people, from what I know of them. I have had childhood friends from various cultures since I was old enough to attend pre-school. There has never been a time in my life when I was surrounded 100% by people who looked only like me for a sustained amount of time. That is virtually impossible here. Through my various interests, work relationships and communities I'm a member of, I met and befriend people for all 6 continents. I have explored my ancestry and have even made contact with (extremely) distant blood relatives in West Africa. As money, time and control over COVID allow, travel will become more feasible.


I expected you to point to the multiculturalism of the US, which is why I said "multicultural, or not". I also have friends and acquaintances from all corners of the world. It doesn't make me unique. You may see Norway as very homogenous, and compared to the US, it's fair to say that most of this country is, but I live in one of the more multicultural cities here. Meeting people of different cultures in your own backyard, is not the same as traveling and meeting people abroad. If you had met a more diverse range of people, I don't think you'd boil every act of racial discrimination down to ill intent, or indications of inherent racism.


I know myself better than you do.

As I said, travel is in the future. There are many places I want to see. Some of those places are in remote areas of significant homogeneity and thus I know racism will likely be experienced. I know myself well enough to know I have to prepare myself mentally and psychologically for those experiences. And it's not just me I need to protect. My now teenage daughter wants to go as well. She's biracial so however bad I will likely have it, she may have it worse, depending on where we go. She's half-white so perhaps it will not be as bad, I really don't know.

What I do know is that these are considerations that white people do not have to make because their skin color, by default, is a currency that buys them relative goodwill virtually everywhere they go.
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Post by McLewis Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:27 pm

@Myesyats wrote:was browsing through the net and saw this pic, completely unintentional but it made me chuckle Laughing

The Racism Thread - Page 13 20020110


I don't blame the Asian guy for not exactly looking thrilled in this pic. This same shit happens in quite a few countries in East Asia as well when black people go there. Good friend of mine spent a few years in China for work and he had to stick to the cities because going into the rural areas meant he'd get touched a lot because people had never seen such dark skin before. At first it was flattering, then it got just overwhelming. Even in the cities he'd get ogled and stared at constantly. And that's when he wasn't getting ignorant racist shit said to him, given he had a good command of Cantonese. When that happens everyday for years, the "well they're just ignorant, they don't know any better" excuse really wears out quickly.

Homogenous societies are breeding grounds for racism, regardless of region or continent.
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Post by futbol Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:18 pm

@McLewis wrote:
@futbol wrote:"Racism" indeed lost its meaning. People really think this woman hates Chinese and would put them into gas chambers if she could? You think that's how she ticks? Really? Bases on that gesture she did?

Misbehaving or having a weird sense of humour (yes, there are tons of "simple" people out there that find "ching chong" or "slit eyes" funny without actually meaning harm) isn't automatically racism.

The woke police should care more about Germany, UK, France, US sending war ships to the South Chinese seas instead of wasting their time shitposting on Twitter.


This player made her feelings about Asian people rather apparent by choosing to mock their appearance. As someone who has experienced racism, both passive racism and active racism, that's my read on this.

I'm going to assume you're referring to me when you say "the woke police". The very use of that term is derisive and denotes absolutely no effort to actually understand what it is to be "woke". I would venture you honestly don't even care, but I'll put in the effort anyway. Reach one, teach one and such.

This is likely all just entertainment for you, because it's not something you've personally had to experience. For me, this is not a joke. I find absolutely nothing about this humorous. Why? Because I grew up with people like this player saying and doing shit like this to people who looked like me, without consequences. We were told to just ignore it. To just accept it. Being "woke" is a rejection of that. That's literally all it ever has been. People that believe it to be what you believe it to be have made it far more than that.

So given the above, you can keep dismissing and deriding people like me as "the woke police", but just remember that every time you do that, you are putting down people who are refusing to accept that being racially abused is just part of their every day, lived experience and that they should do nothing to stop it. If that's who you want to be, by all means. Do not expect to not be called out on it though. I'll do it every single time and I won't always be as civil about it as I am right now. That's not a warning. That's just me being 100% with you.

There are tons of external traits that people mock without actually being Nazis. In this forum's football context alone you get "Messi = midget" all the time which seems totally acceptable and I've never seen anyone take offense from it. Yet I'm certain people who had growth problems and "personally had to experience" mockery because of it, for them it's not a joke either. Maybe we ban that term now and shame everyone who used it as Nazis as well (Nazi Germany killed people with Dwarfism after all)?

There is a difference between people actively mocking you and getting outraged over a photo with a stupid gesture. The mere fact that she took a photo of it shows how unaware she actually is about it unless she intended to come out as a racist.

People really should be able to make those distinctions but I guess not. We're living in times now where a rapper at his concert holds the Mic infront of a fan to sing along, she sings along the rapper's lyrics which includes "nigga" and she receives a shitstorm over it because she actually spelled it out. Utter stupididty.

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:44 pm

@Myesyats wrote:People in homogenous countries dont really care about not offending other cultures, I've noticed that most people are indifferent to such matters that clearly seem much less trivial to minorities. Obviously nobody would posts such stuff on an official account, that is a terrible mistake on their part. But people dont walk on their toes around in regular life not trying to offend other cultures. People care about what affects them, really
Thats my view in general about the average person, the jjuve marketing team should have known better because they also reach out to the asian football audience. Life outside social media bubbles is not as black and white as it would seem.


I agree with this.

The only way to curb racist behavior is to be made to feel bad about it. If you make a racist joke and everyone laughs you'll keep making racist jokes. If you make a racist joke and someone tells you "hey that was really hurtful to me", you might develop some empathy and not make any more racist jokes.

In homogenous countries the 2nd scenario doesn't happen very often, so these kinds of jokes and attitudes go unchecked. And while Italy does have it's fair number of African immigrants, Asian people are far more rare.

Just to be clear, this is by way of explanation, not excusing the behavior. It's obvious that a global brand needs to understand the effect on a global stage.
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Post by McLewis Thu Aug 12, 2021 2:31 pm

@futbol wrote:

There are tons of external traits that people mock without actually being Nazis. In this forum's football context alone you get "Messi = midget" all the time which seems totally acceptable and I've never seen anyone take offense from it. Yet I'm certain people who had growth problems and "personally had to experience" mockery because of it, for them it's not a joke either. Maybe we ban that term now and shame everyone who used it as Nazis as well (Nazi Germany killed people with Dwarfism after all)?

There is a difference between people actively mocking you and getting outraged over a photo with a stupid gesture. The mere fact that she took a photo of it shows how unaware she actually is about it unless she intended to come out as a racist.

People really should be able to make those distinctions but I guess not. We're living in times now where a rapper at his concert holds the Mic infront of a fan to sing along, she sings along the rapper's lyrics which includes "nigga" and she receives a shitstorm over it because she actually spelled it out. Utter stupididty.

Messi's height isn't specific to South Americans though. That is not a defining physical feature of the region. Slanted eyes are stereotypically specific to Southeast and East Asian people. That's a very bad false equivalency.

Again, it wasn't just her. There were at least 2-3 people involved in this decision. Juve have a visible presence in Asia. You don't celebrate Asian fans or lift them up by mocking them, even if intended to be a joke.  All that accomplishes is potential alienation. Perhaps I wouldn't have been so bothered by this if Juve hadn't fumbled the bag with that shitty apology. Do we even know if the player was disciplined? No, we don't. There was no accountability, no repercussions, as far as we know. It's entirely possible that Juve disciplined the player internally and privately, but what does that accomplish if no one actually knows about it? That's the other side to this. When something like this doesn't have consequences, that signals to the player (and others, specifically fans) that it's ok to do it again. It sends entirely the wrong message.

Comparing this to rap lyrics is another bad false equivalency. The dynamics surrounding the n-word are very complex, both inside and outside the black community here in the US. There are variables at play there that are not at play here. White people, both here in the US and abroad, do not understand this so they boil it down to what you just said, which is super ignorant.

@futbol wrote:Once we start with that it never ends, there is just no line that one can draw.

Sure, if someone does a questionable gesture you can tell him and that's fine. But once that principle is established people will always drive it to the next level. Example?

In Germany we say "Schwarzfahren" to entering public transportation without a valid ticket. Schwarz = black. Fahren = driving/going by. Basically we say "you're driving black".

It probably comes from "blackening out", as in illegaly blackening out parts of a contract. Or illegal activities being done at night time and the cliché robber wearing a black mask to cover his face. It definitely has as much to do with African/black people as the classic US Thanksgiving dinner has to do with Turkish people.

Yet here we are, the Woke police has turned it into a political debate whether it's okay or not to use that term.

I don't need to live in a society where every single word has to be thought over before speaking it out in fear of getting labeled as Hitler's reincarnation.

Another example is "gender neutral" language. English speakers won't quite get it as there is no teacher and "teachress". You only got "the teacher", whether it's a male or female one. But in German we have "der Lehrer" (male teacher) and "die Lehrerin" (female teacher). Same in Spanish with "el" and "la". Plural (mixed group or males only) would be "die Lehrer". Females only would be "die Lehrerinnen".

Somehow this is sexist now. The plural of male only or mixed group is the same. So the woke have invented abominations like "die Lehrer:innen" with a colon in the middle of the word. In spoken language you do a pause. "Lehrer ..." PAUSE "innen", to be inclusive. Imagine it like this in English: "The ac ... PAUSE "tresses". This is officially being spoken in German state television news. Laughing

If you wanna see a culture that is so saturated due to wealth and starts to dismantle itself, look no further than current Germany and its "issues". While we establish 200 professorships for gender studies and can't build an airport in less than 14 years, China is about to send people to Mars.

Everything expressed here has nothing to do with the topic at hand. It would be more in line with the Politically Correct thread.
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Post by Myesyats Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:10 pm

https://www.newsweek.com/professor-suspended-not-giving-black-students-easier-final-exam-sues-ucla-1634873

Professor Suspended for Rebuffing Request to Give Black Students Easier Final Exam Sues UCLA


what Laughing

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Post by Warrior Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:25 pm

The incident that spurred the lawsuit began on the morning of June 2, 2020, when he received an email from who he said was a non-Black student asking that Klein grade Black students with greater "leniency" in the wake of Floyd's death and the civil unrest that followed.

He was suspended for his cynical answer to the email

Seems like a big misunderstanding in summer 2020 which was very sensitive times. We know how this story will end. He'll get compensated and suddenly his life will improve a lot.
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