The Racism Thread

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Post by Myesyats Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:39 pm

Is it worse than this? My point is that people from the west have this wild idea about what eastern europe is like but imo everyone's got their own problems more or less and its not uncommon for people to look down on eastern europe I think undeservedly so while ignoring racism in the own backyard.


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Post by CBarca Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:45 am

You can't really compare euro 2012 to 2020

It's a completely different time, different atmosphere, different coverage.
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Post by Babun Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:36 pm

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Post by El Gunner Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:47 pm

quite a tone deaf post with what's actually going on in South Africa at the moment
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Post by Babun Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:56 pm

@El Gunner wrote:quite a tone deaf post with what's actually going on in South Africa at the moment

EFF, a leftist, communist party is the driving force behind the killing and the protests in South Africa in support of the corrupt jailed ex-president Jacob Zuma.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_Fighters
Those farmers are selling their farms to go somewhere else, most of the white South Africans are doing the same. What will be left is a society not able to support and develop its infrastructure, unable to feed the people, make the economy grow etc.
I expect civil war at some point.
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Post by El Gunner Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:19 pm

you're quite unbelievable with the conviction with which you speak halfway across the world. Trust me your "white sources" don't have all the answers, and their bias will always show... EFF hasn't even been prominent in the news cycle recently, so your speculation that they are behind the current Zuma (who has links with the ANC party) protests are mere speculation.

i think i'll just leave your racist undertones alone... insinuating that black people aren't capable of running lands and governments... it's probably for the best for those white farmers to sell and leave though, i agree
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Post by Myesyats Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:09 pm

you live in sudafrika currently or namibia LG? The looting and fires looks scary, hope you're safe.
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Post by El Gunner Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:20 pm

back in Namibia with my family since Covid mate Heart
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Post by Babun Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:40 pm

@El Gunner wrote:you're quite unbelievable with the conviction with which you speak halfway across the world. Trust me your "white sources" don't have all the answers, and their bias will always show... EFF hasn't even been prominent in the news cycle recently, so your speculation that they are behind the current Zuma (who has links with the ANC party) protests are mere speculation.

EFF is/was blocking army deployment to curb the riots and looting in the affected areas. It doesn't mean shooting civilians on target, just restoring order. They were very cooperative with the Wuhan Virus lockdown though.
@El Gunner wrote:
i think i'll just leave your racist undertones alone... insinuating that black people aren't capable of running lands and governments... it's probably for the best for those white farmers to sell and leave though, i agree

Most of the shops destroyed and looted belonged... to black South Africans. The ones who try to make a living are looked down upon as white men's handy men. Of course, they're very much capable to run the lands and gouvernment on their own, they're capable working people. The question is whether they'll get to. I don't think so. Best example was Zimbabwe, the corrupt lot with power took everything apart then the state imploded. I mean cases like these:




The thread here isn't about South Africa though but about racism. Yeah, there's clear racism toward whites and toward other African minorities in South Africa. The white will probably sell whatever they have and go, the other minorities, we'll see how the story will unfold.
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Post by McLewis Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:06 pm

Ok Europeans of GL, now is your chance to explain to me how this was not racist and was entirely an innocent joke that was not intended to offend Asian folks:



Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd go....
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Post by McLewis Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:07 pm

And here is the super half-assed apology, right on schedule:

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Post by Thimmy Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:40 pm

@McLewis wrote:Ok Europeans of GL, now is your chance to explain to me how this was not racist and was entirely an innocent joke that was not intended to offend Asian folks:



Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd go....


I don't think we need to discuss whether or not this is racist, it is. I do think the intention matters when deciding how to go about holding the club or player accountable for their action, though. There needs to be a distinction between this type of behavior, and the hate-fueled, intentionally discriminating types of racism that exist.

Anyway, I don't necessarily think most of us, Europeans are any better suited to judge this situation than Americans are. I mean, Norway has more in common with Australia than we do with Italy. Is Robes the only Italian resident we have left on GL?
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Post by Thimmy Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:47 pm

@McLewis wrote:And here is the super half-assed apology, right on schedule:



Not meant to have any racial undertones? Are they serious? Razz I've been told that some Italians can be quite insensitive towards non-ethnic Italians. I used to have a neighbour who was a black immigrant from Italy, and she claimed that racial discrimination was fairly common when she was living there. I like to think that they're just acting ignorant with this tweet, though. Her intention may not have been to offend, but they're not fooling anyone by claiming that the racial undertones went above their heads Laughing
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Post by VivaStPauli Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:49 pm

Yeah it might have not been intended to offend anyone, not talking about the thought process, but it's obviously racist.
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Post by McLewis Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:28 pm

@Thimmy wrote:
@McLewis wrote:Ok Europeans of GL, now is your chance to explain to me how this was not racist and was entirely an innocent joke that was not intended to offend Asian folks:



Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd go....


I do think the intention matters when deciding how to go about holding the club or player accountable for their action, though.


What well-meaning intention could there be for something like this though?

We both agree it was racist. Racism's inherent intent is to harm its victims. Therefore, my read is her actions were intended to offend Asians given she was making fun of the way they look and what they wear in their culture. She sure as well wasn't honoring or appreciating their culture here.

I think the intention is very clear here. I'm curious as to why you appear to think there is ambiguity.
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Post by Kaladin Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:47 pm

@McLewis wrote:Ok Europeans of GL, now is your chance to explain to me how this was not racist and was entirely an innocent joke that was not intended to offend Asian folks:



Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd go....


Nobody wants to say this but its a laidback thing in Italy and most mediterranean territories, i'm not saying its widely accepted but its par for the norm there.

You should see how they treat the low-skilled labour there that are mostly from Africa, i'm talking about menial jobs like McDonalds cashiers and whatnot. Some horrible stuff there, seen it first hand.
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Post by McLewis Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:02 pm

@Kaladin wrote:
@McLewis wrote:Ok Europeans of GL, now is your chance to explain to me how this was not racist and was entirely an innocent joke that was not intended to offend Asian folks:



Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd go....


Nobody wants to say this but its a laidback thing in Italy and most mediterranean territories, i'm not saying its widely accepted but its par for the norm there.

You should see how they treat the low-skilled labour there that are mostly from Africa, i'm talking about menial jobs like McDonalds cashiers and whatnot. Some horrible stuff there, seen it first hand.


I think where I get confused when I hear about stuff like this is discerning between whether it's racism, xenophobia or both.

I believe both occur.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:08 pm

@McLewis wrote:Ok Europeans of GL, now is your chance to explain to me how this was not racist and was entirely an innocent joke that was not intended to offend Asian folks:



Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd go....


"Europeans of GL" seriously?
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Post by McLewis Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:15 pm

Yes, I wanted a targeted audience for this one. Problem?
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Post by Thimmy Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:56 pm

@McLewis wrote:

What well-meaning intention could there be for something like this though?

We both agree it was racist. Racism's inherent intent is to harm its victims. Therefore, my read is her actions were intended to offend Asians given she was making fun of the way they look and what they wear in their culture. She sure as well wasn't honoring or appreciating their culture here.

I think the intention is very clear here. I'm curious as to why you appear to think there is ambiguity.


I didn't say it was well-meaning. I assume you know just as well as anyone else that racism or racial insensitivity doesn't exclusively occur because someone intends to harm someone else. It may unintentionally lead to that result, but we're not talking about slavery or Ku Klux Klan activity here.

I don't know what her intentions were, only she knows, but I've seen enough unintentional racism from culturally ignorant people to assume that she just thought she was being funny and witty, and might not have considered how Asians would feel about this poor attempt at a joke. And that's why I pointed out that there needs to be a clear distinction between acts that are perceived to be racially offensive like, cultural appropriation, and blatant, unapologetic discrimination based on skin color or ethnicity.
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Post by Warrior Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:18 am

We live in era of woke capitalism i don't think Juve has anything to gain from offending asians. It makes no sense

The twitter staff is always trying to look cute/funny and here's another failed attempt. Bash them for being racist if you want, the post effectively was. But by all logic it was clumsy more than vicious

Sorry not being european yet it's my club we talk about so.....
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Post by McLewis Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:19 am

@Thimmy wrote:
@McLewis wrote:

What well-meaning intention could there be for something like this though?

We both agree it was racist. Racism's inherent intent is to harm its victims. Therefore, my read is her actions were intended to offend Asians given she was making fun of the way they look and what they wear in their culture. She sure as well wasn't honoring or appreciating their culture here.

I think the intention is very clear here. I'm curious as to why you appear to think there is ambiguity.


I didn't say it was well-meaning. I assume you know just as well as anyone else that racism or racial insensitivity doesn't exclusively occur because someone intends to harm someone else. It may unintentionally lead to that result, but we're not talking about slavery or Ku Klux Klan activity here.

I don't know what her intentions were, only she knows, but I've seen enough unintentional racism from culturally ignorant people to assume that she just thought she was being funny and witty, and might not have considered how Asians would feel about this poor attempt at a joke. And that's why I pointed out that there needs to be a clear distinction between acts that are perceived to be racially offensive like, cultural appropriation, and blatant, unapologetic discrimination based on skin color or ethnicity.


Ok now I'm thoroughly confused. Which of those acts do you believe this was?

I have absolutely no clue why people who very clearly have racially abused others automatically get the benefit of the doubt in situations like this. What specifically has she said or done to deserve it here? I truly don't get it. Make it make sense.

She doesn't get to be "unintentionally racist" or "culturally ignorant" in this day and age. I'm having none of that. That excuse may have been accepted more generally 40 or 50 years ago, but we live in a world with information on anything and everything readily at our finger tips. She didn't even think that her "poor attempt at a joke" or her trying to be funny or witty could possible be taken the wrong way be Asians and other POC. Neither did the photographer. Neither did the Social Media Manager for the Juve Women's Twitter account. That's 3 people that could've done the work (literally a quick Google or discussion with someone Asian, I don't know) to make sure this was ok to post, but none of them did it. I said something similar to this when one of the Italian newspapers posted that horrendous front page headline of Lukaku and Smalling. I said it when the FIGC decided to decorate its offices with portraits of chimpanzees. In all of those instances, there had to have been multiple levels of approvals before the public were made aware. Yet every level saw no issues. Why? Those who are used being in positions of cultural privilege often do not concern themselves with what they perceive as "inferior cultures" may think about their actions or words.  It literally doesn't register at all. They never had to worry about it during their early development. It's tempting to chalk this up to lack of exposure due to growing up and living in a homogenous society, but that's not an out I'm going to give here. Again, we live in an age of unprecedented knowledge. There is just no excuse for such ignorance.


Last edited by McLewis on Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by McLewis Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:26 am

@Warrior wrote:We live in era of woke capitalism i don't think Juve has anything to gain from offending asians. It makes no sense

The twitter staff is always trying to look cute/funny and here's another failed attempt. Bash them for being racist if you want, the post effectively was. But by all logic it was clumsy more than vicious

Sorry not being european yet it's my club we talk about so.....


No, we're not going to blame this on "woke capitalism. Whatever that is.

Capitalism has its faults, but it didn't drive this post into existence.

And no, I'm not going to accept this as "clumsiness". This is always the excuse when a European displays their racism for the world to see. It's either "ignorance" or a "bad joke". It's never malicious. It's never intentionally hurtful. No one ever takes responsibility for their actions. No one ever holds themselves or others accountable. It's a pathetic cop out and I won't have it.

Racism is inherently malicious. Ignorance does not preclude it from that fact. She had a choice here. She didn't have to put that cone on her head and she sure as hell didn't have to slant her eyes. She chose to do both. And she did it willingly. There was nothing clumsy about it.
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Post by Casciavit Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:40 am

@McLewis wrote:Ok Europeans of GL, now is your chance to explain to me how this was not racist and was entirely an innocent joke that was not intended to offend Asian folks:



Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd go....


I think anyone who has travelled to different countries and actually immersed themself with the locals and actually spoken to them behind closed doors using slang, will tell you the vast majority of people in the world are racist/xenophobic (both ignorantly and knowingly). Then when you try to bring up instances of that to those people they justify it by telling you that's not what they meant. Ultimately this stuff is so ingrained in their culture especially with older people or those who aren't educated or haven't stepped outside of their country.

I've seen this first hand in Mediterranean, Middle Eastern, Scandinavian, and North American cultures. It's even present in a diverse country like Canada where all my neighbours are of different ethnicity. It's everywhere.
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Post by Babun Fri Aug 06, 2021 10:12 am

@McLewis
The words racism and nazi are used inflationary so often that they've lost their real meaning in the language. That woman in the photo is a xenophobic, ignorant bitch who thinks it's ok to make fun of the looks of other people. Those types of people exist all around the world in every population. All you're going to achieve by persecuting them would be illogical resistance from them. The way to go for these type of people is to create more opportunities to get to know people from other places and proper education because most xenophobes are people who had little contact with cultures other than their own.
Racism like a specific problem is prevalent in the US, France, Saudi Arabia, China and Africa right now. We have little in common with the last three cultures but more with the US and a lot more with France. Your racism problem is very specific to your country. If at all, I think for us racism in France is more relevant for the ways to go in the future. To be frank, the way the US have handled its racism problem up until now is a colossal failure. I hope our politicians/culture won't import/culturally appropriate US problems and their "solutions" over here.

On the topic of the difference between Xenophobia and Racism:
Someone already bothered to explain with a wall of text, I'll just leave the link here.
http://www.differencebetween.net/language/difference-between-xenophobia-and-racism/
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Post by Myesyats Fri Aug 06, 2021 10:37 am

People in homogenous countries dont really care about not offending other cultures, I've noticed that most people are indifferent to such matters that clearly seem much less trivial to minorities. Obviously nobody would posts such stuff on an official account, that is a terrible mistake on their part. But people dont walk on their toes around in regular life not trying to offend other cultures. People care about what affects them, really
Thats my view in general about the average person, the jjuve marketing team should have known better because they also reach out to the asian football audience. Life outside social media bubbles is not as black and white as it would seem.
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