The Racism Thread

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Post by Thimmy Fri Jun 03, 2022 1:13 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:
Thimmy wrote:I don't know which country that team is from, but something tells me that there won't be any consequences for those fans, which is the most disgusting part of it.


Sofia is the capital of Bulgaria.
You could've googled it.
But honestly, could've probably known it, as a European. I mean, you had all the time. It was supposedly founded by the Thracians, so it had been around.


You're right, I could've. I was just about to go to bed when I wrote it and couldn't be arsed to google it. Bulgaria is one of few, European countries that I haven't traveled to in my life, but now that you mention it, I have heard that Sofia is their capital city. Good talk.

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Post by Myesyats Fri Jun 03, 2022 1:23 pm

Thats what you get in post-soviet countries. Its a process to overcome these incidents and sentiments. Speaking from first-hand experience, things are so much better in poland in that regard than they were 20 or even 10 years ago
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Post by McLewis Fri Jun 03, 2022 3:26 pm

Myesyats wrote:Thats what you get in post-soviet countries. Its a process to overcome these incidents and sentiments. Speaking from first-hand experience, things are so much better in poland in that regard than they were 20 or even 10 years ago


What would you say has been behind these improvements? Was there a catalyst?
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Post by Myesyats Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:19 pm

I would say joining EU in 2004 was pretty significant.

After that followed more social education, spreading awareness, more contact with foreign cultures (under communism you werent allowed to leave the country most times and generally travel was strict), now its normal to encounter foreigners etc and they don't get as many second looks. The Erasmus programs for students are a big thing in exchange of cultures as well

This concerns many other issues besides racism too, people in general were less educated in terms of being a proper citizen, participating in the voting process, seeking out true information so that you can make informed decisions etc. Racism is only one part of a very far-reaching social backwardness in these countries.
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Post by Thimmy Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:58 pm

Myesyats wrote:Racism is only one part of a very far-reaching social backwardness in these countries.


I think that's a very, very good point. I'd talk more in depth about this, but I tend to be put in my place by someone who claims that they're more educated on this topic than I am, so I'm glad that you mentioned it.

I have noticed that certain countries, like Latvia seem to be moving in the right direction as far as racial awareness goes. I've been to Riga twice with friends now, and the treatment of my Thai friend has been like night and day between the first and second visits there. I assume that's likely a result of increased tourism over the past decade.
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Post by VivaStPauli Fri Jun 03, 2022 5:10 pm

Yeah you see the same everywhere. People are less xenophobic if the xenos aren't xeno enough to trigger their phobia anymore.
Same here in Germany, it's getting less pronounced every year, but after the fall of the Berlin wall you could literally watch East Germans lose their fucking mind if they saw someone foreign (even though they'd see the odd exchange student from Vietnam or Eritrea), and they had a lot more lingering problems with xenophobia since, still do.
But it's exactly where the East/West-divide used to run. Exposure to other cultures helps people not hate them, apparently. Who would've thought?

So I think we can expect improvement in all post-communist societies as they open themselves up. IF they open themselves up. Looking at you, Hungary.
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Post by McLewis Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:50 pm

With The Sandman, House of the Dragon and Rings of Power premiering recently, all have drawn the attention of literary purists who hide their racism behind this inane obsession with TV adaptations of written work being EXACTLY what they imagined the work should be based on the source work.

Neil Gaiman has spent a remarkable amount of time debunking shit on social media about the casting of characters in Sandman (Desire and Death primarily). This man literally created these characters and he still has people telling HIM what they should look like. Incredible.

GRRM is literally an exec producer on House of the Dragon. He has far more creative control over this show than he ever did with GoT. If he says House Velaryon can be Black and Brown, who the fuck is anyone to say different?

Unlike Peter Jackson's films, the Tolkien estate are actually involved with Rings of Power. Think what you will about the quality of writing in the show (based on only 2 episodes I might add), but if the Tolkien estate are fine with a Black woman being the Queen of Numenor, a Black woman being the consort of the ruler of Khazad-Dum, a Afro-Latino man being a Woodland elf and in love with a character played by an Iranian-British woman so once again.....why should any criticism of these casting choice be considered legitimate?

Nerd fandom is racist as fuck. All of this shit is fantasy. Literally made up and yet even in these worlds, people of color are not welcome. Our culture, mythologies, ideas, and most importantly, our money, is a lot more welcome than we actually are apparently.

The purists will say "Well why can't Black Panther be white?"......Because he was created directly as a means of representation at a time when the comic book world was nothing, but white characters with a large and growing following of Black readers. So making him white flies directly in the face of the idea of cultural representation. These motherfuckers know this, but are playing dumb anyway. Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were both pretty clear on this and took a lot of pains to create a character that did not fit the average white American's perception of what it was to be Black and African. They created the opposite: One of the greatest scientists in the genre with wealth that surpasses Tony Stark's, physical prowess that rivals any of the Avengers and a regal manner and bearing to match his intellect, hailing from a country with technology a millennium ahead of ours. That apparently grates on white nerd fandom.

The purists will say "Why can't you all make your own characters?". We do. There is a myriad of Black Sci-fi writers and authors out there. Octavia Butler remains one of the most imminent among them, despite her passing 16 years ago. She was downright prolific yet only a few of her works have been adapted and only 1 of them is being adapted for TV. The other was adapted for Opera. That's it. There are other fantastic writers such as Nnedi Okorafor, N.K Jemisin, Walter Moseley, Colson Whitehead and Tochi Onyebuchi among others. None of these authors' works have gotten big budget adapations outside of Whitehead's The Underground Railroad and that was only because Black torture porn is a money maker. Very few epic fantasy works from authors of color have been adapted for big screens. I would love for that to change, but I don't hold the purse strings at these production companies. White men do. They keep failing to realize that BIPOC nerd fandom is a truly untapped market both on the creative side and on the fan side. They keep going for the predictable, for the easy money. They fear risk.

So coming back to my original point. These new shows are not perfect. Far from it. All 3 of them have issues imo. Yet to truly see myself in characters like Death, Corlys Velaryon and Arondir is truly priceless. It's something I've wanted my entire life as a nerd who grew up watching primarily white fantasy characters that I admired going on adventures that fascinated me, but that I could never truly connect with. So no matter how bad the writing on some of these shows gets (I personally think they're not badly written), it's a net positive to have so much representation on screen. That's not virtue signaling. That's not being "woke". That's not having a political agenda. That's simply evolution of a genre that has been dominated by white people for far too long. If you have a problem with this, you've never known what it is to be underrepresented and I hope you never do.


Last edited by McLewis on Tue Sep 06, 2022 4:06 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Post by El Gunner Tue Sep 06, 2022 4:01 pm

i have no problem with adaptations promoting diversity, i'm actually all for it. As long as the storytelling remains the most important part of the show, and not that it's obvious they are just pandering to liberal agendas.

What mostly pisses me off is when people say bullshit like the original writers of the original texts were inherently racist for not including diversity of characters...

all the posthumous hate Tolkien is getting
don't even get me started on JK Rowling hate, my god

news flash... person of certain colour sees the imaginary characters in their head as the same colour as them because that's their mental projection and most likely the people who have the biggest influence in their lives are also same colour as them (family + friends)
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Post by McLewis Tue Sep 06, 2022 4:28 pm

El Gunner wrote:i have no problem with adaptations promoting diversity, i'm actually all for it. As long as the storytelling remains the most important part of the show, and not that it's obvious they are just pandering to liberal agendas.

What mostly pisses me off is when people say bullshit like the original writers of the original texts were inherently racist for not including diversity of characters...

all the posthumous hate Tolkien is getting
don't even get me started on JK Rowling hate, my god

news flash... person of certain colour sees the imaginary characters in their head as the same colour as them because that's their mental projection and most likely the people who have the biggest influence in their lives are also same colour as them (family + friends)


Yeah I agree. I don't think any of these shows is peddling a liberal agenda. None of these characters exist in a world where their color factors into the decisions they make. Death is simply what she is. Corlys Velaryon's Valyrian roots matter infinitely more and Arondir's being a soldier in an occupying force account for how he's viewed within the plot. None of that should be seen as political to us yet here we are.

As for Tolkien, he was a product of his era. Alexandre Dumas created 3 of the most iconic white literary characters of all time in the Three Musketeers as well as the Count of Monte Cristo. And he did that even as a non-white author. Had those characters been anything, but white, he would not be anywhere near as well known as he is today. Tolkien understood this, perhaps subconsciously. That doesn't mean his estate has to adhere to the norms of that same era. Times have changed and they changed with it.

With Rowling, I respect that the Potterverse is so inclusive racially. It's unfortunate that she couldn't follow through and remain consistent on that with regards to the LGBTQIA+ community though the retcon regarding Dumbledore and Grindelwald is a nod in that direction yet nowhere near enough to bridge the gap of betrayal the transgender fans of her books are feeling. I consider myself an ally of that community so, as such, much of my interest in the Potterverse has cooled. I think the threats to her safety, in all forms, are extremely unwarranted yet I don't believe she's immune to criticism though. It comes from a place of betrayal and that runs deep. So it makes sense to me that people are going to hate her. Unfortunate, but she told her truth. This is the outcome.
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Post by rincon Tue Sep 06, 2022 5:31 pm

Perfectly said @McLewis
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Post by Myesyats Tue Sep 06, 2022 5:48 pm

I'm not a fantasy book reader, so I'm not so crazy about the adaptations being 100% faithful to the source material, but if I were I would totally want the creators to adhere to the descriptions of events and characters as they were laid out in the books.

This is what House of the Dragon creator said:

"The world is very different now than it was 10 years ago when [Game of Thrones] all started. It's different than 20 years ago when Peter Jackson made The Lord of the Rings. These types of stories need to be more inclusive than they traditionally have been," Condal tells EW on the set of House of the Dragon in December. "It was very important for Miguel and I to create a show that was not another bunch of white people on the screen, just to put it very bluntly."


I dont understand altering already established characters for the sake of political agendas. Literally everyone loved Black Panther, there's hunger for more fantasy and more universes, so why change existing ones? And also make a big issue out of it that you specifically wanted to have less whites on screen. This is as 'in your face' as it gets

And the criticism extends to much more than race, hence why I dont see the need to shove everyone into the racist bag.
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Post by Warrior Tue Sep 06, 2022 5:52 pm

El G Thumbs up

For me, art is not meant to be inclusive at all costs
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Post by rincon Tue Sep 06, 2022 7:08 pm

Myesyats wrote:I'm not a fantasy book reader, so I'm not so crazy about the adaptations being 100% faithful to the source material, but if I were I would totally want the creators to adhere to the descriptions of events and characters as they were laid out in the books.

This is what House of the Dragon creator said:

"The world is very different now than it was 10 years ago when [Game of Thrones] all started. It's different than 20 years ago when Peter Jackson made The Lord of the Rings. These types of stories need to be more inclusive than they traditionally have been," Condal tells EW on the set of House of the Dragon in December. "It was very important for Miguel and I to create a show that was not another bunch of white people on the screen, just to put it very bluntly."


I dont understand altering already established characters for the sake of political agendas. Literally everyone loved Black Panther, there's hunger for more fantasy and more universes, so why change existing ones? And also make a big issue out of it that you specifically  wanted to have less whites on screen. This is as 'in your face' as it gets

And the criticism extends to much more than race, hence why I dont see the need to shove everyone into the racist bag.

But how can you tell Martin, Condal, and Sapochnik what they should do? If they want to make their show diverse then why not? They are the artists in the end, Martin created the characters and Condal/Sapochnik created the show, and this is their vision.

You have the creators of these stories choosing to make a diverse show. It's absolutely not a bad thing. White people have been by an enormous distance the face of American and European media for basically all of it's existence. It's how it was. Now there is a small amount of diversity, we are talking about like 2 or 3 characters in an otherwise only-white show and yet it's still a problem?

They are doing a good thing, and it doesn't have to be for you, it isn't for me either. McLewis says how important it is for him to see himself there in the show. It isn't the case for me, but the fact that it is the case for him is enough of a reason to do it.

The quality of a show or movie should be judged outside of that. To dislike a show or review bomb it, etc. because creators made it diverse is straight up racism. A diverse show can be good, bad, or average. Just like a not diverse one. It's not a measure of its quality.
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Post by Myesyats Tue Sep 06, 2022 7:38 pm

I can understand McLewis' POV, but personally I wouldnt want an entire franchise altered just because the political climate warrants it. To me, it feels forced and the responses from creators/actors are not satisfactory.

For the record, I had no problem with black elves in Netflix's adaptation of The Witcher, because in the lore their looks are left to the imagination beyond the usual slender body type and pointy ears. It's not about race at all, just being respectful to the source material.

I'm not telling the creators what they should create, but if they take creative liberties then they should be ready to face criticism. Saying "well it's because you're racist" doesn't cut it, or saying "just wanted to have less whites on screen haha" is a bit out there.

As you say, having diversity doesn't make a show bad, but it also doesnt make it automatically good.
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Post by rincon Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:06 pm

Of course it won't be good because of it. That's a big thing that is missing in the discourse. People inmediately hate on an adaptation because of creative liberties when it comes to race or gender. Some people also praise it senselessly.

Having a black elf or dwarf, or a male character turned woman will not break a show. If done well, it will reach more people in a different way. Representation is important, and that's a great thing to do.

If done poorly it will be obvious enough and quickly discarded from pop-culture.
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Post by El Gunner Tue Sep 06, 2022 9:49 pm

rincon wrote:
Myesyats wrote:I'm not a fantasy book reader, so I'm not so crazy about the adaptations being 100% faithful to the source material, but if I were I would totally want the creators to adhere to the descriptions of events and characters as they were laid out in the books.

This is what House of the Dragon creator said:

"The world is very different now than it was 10 years ago when [Game of Thrones] all started. It's different than 20 years ago when Peter Jackson made The Lord of the Rings. These types of stories need to be more inclusive than they traditionally have been," Condal tells EW on the set of House of the Dragon in December. "It was very important for Miguel and I to create a show that was not another bunch of white people on the screen, just to put it very bluntly."


I dont understand altering already established characters for the sake of political agendas. Literally everyone loved Black Panther, there's hunger for more fantasy and more universes, so why change existing ones? And also make a big issue out of it that you specifically  wanted to have less whites on screen. This is as 'in your face' as it gets

And the criticism extends to much more than race, hence why I dont see the need to shove everyone into the racist bag.

But how can you tell Martin, Condal, and Sapochnik what they should do? If they want to make their show diverse then why not? They are the artists in the end, Martin created the characters and Condal/Sapochnik created the show, and this is their vision.

You have the creators of these stories choosing to make a diverse show. It's absolutely not a bad thing. White people have been by an enormous distance the face of American and European media for basically all of it's existence. It's how it was. Now there is a small amount of diversity, we are talking about like 2 or 3 characters in an otherwise only-white show and yet it's still a problem?

They are doing a good thing, and it doesn't have to be for you, it isn't for me either. McLewis says how important it is for him to see himself there in the show. It isn't the case for me, but the fact that it is the case for him is enough of a reason to do it.

The quality of a show or movie should be judged outside of that. To dislike a show or review bomb it, etc. because creators made it diverse is straight up racism. A diverse show can be good, bad, or average. Just like a not diverse one. It's not a measure of its quality.

spot on reply to what Myesyats said

i love that quote from the creators, political times change and you should be able to adapt... that's just how life and society works...

as i said, as long as i'm not feeling a particular agenda is being pushed down my throat like Kaladin mentioned about the "weak male characters" point in the Rings of Power thread...

you can, and in truth, should have diverse representation (especially when it comes to race, i'm still a bit iffy on all the queer stuff) where the overall storytelling still remains the priority... in fact it's been this way in Hollywood since the whole "OscarsTooWhite" debacle. So we're definitely moving in the right direction in terms of racial representation. I recall this show I watched not too long ago, "Sex Lives of College Girls", it's clear they tried to prioritise diversity, but the show was still very good. That's how it should be done.
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Post by McLewis Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:20 pm

Myesyats wrote:I can understand McLewis' POV, but personally I wouldnt want an entire franchise altered just because the political climate warrants it. To me, it feels forced and the responses from creators/actors are not satisfactory.

For the record, I had no problem with black elves in Netflix's adaptation of The Witcher, because in the lore their looks are left to the imagination beyond the usual slender body type and pointy ears. It's not about race at all, just being respectful to the source material.

I'm not telling the creators what they should create, but if they take creative liberties then they should be ready to face criticism. Saying "well it's because you're racist" doesn't cut it, or saying "just wanted to have less whites on screen haha" is a bit out there.

As you say, having diversity doesn't make a show bad, but it also doesnt make it automatically good.


What agenda are any of the BIPOC actors or the showrunners in these shows pushing? Can you provide examples?

Do you get mad at these shows when the teeth of some of the characters are pearly white and not dirty? How about their body odor? How about the existence of food like potatoes despite the fact they didn't exist in Medieval Europe, which is where 2 of these shows are based upon. Potatoes hail from South America.

There are a million inaccuracies that separate the source material from the adaptation. No one bats an eye at a veggie from the region with majority Black and Brown people, but put those actual people in the same story and all of a sudden, it's woke, political virtue signaling.

Seriously, man?
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Post by Warrior Wed Sep 07, 2022 12:24 am

It depends how it's done

In a story happening on earth it's normal to have diverse people and same goes for "the human race" in fantasy worlds. Easily it can be integrated into most if not all lores. There is objectively nothing wrong if you make a new LOTR movie with black Aragorn but i will be annoyed and perceive it as materialization of this woke ideology of shaming heterosexual white men as if everything they do was stolen. And must be redone to make it less inherently racist.

Lgbtq inclusivity is even worse you would think it's time to bow down before them or something

You can give me 100 examples of how white men abused everybody else. Thankfully i will recognize the facts but there is a limit to the victimization i can take, don't need a reminder at every corner. Nowadays diversity is mandatory that's why i perceive some producers clumsy attempts of diversity with a somewhat cynical eye, probably scared of a backlash, only for marketing etc.
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Post by McLewis Wed Sep 07, 2022 1:29 am

Warrior wrote:It depends how it's done

In a story happening on earth it's normal to have diverse people and same goes for "the human race" in fantasy worlds. Easily it can be integrated into most if not all lores. There is objectively nothing wrong if you make a new LOTR movie with black Aragorn but i will be annoyed and perceive it as materialization of this woke ideology of shaming heterosexual white men as if everything they do was stolen. And must be redone to make it less inherently racist.

Lgbtq inclusivity is even worse you would think it's time to bow down before them or something

You can give me 100 examples of how white men abused everybody else. Thankfully i will recognize the facts but there is a limit to the victimization i can take, don't need a reminder at every corner. That's why i perceive some producers clumsy attempts of diversity with a somewhat cynical eye, probably scared of a backlash, only for marketing etc.


All of this is undone by the fact that Tolkien's estate OK'd the use of BIPOC characters in the show. In their capacity as his estate, they speak for JRR himself. They are the ultimate authority on what Middle Earth is and who inhabits it since he can no longer do so himself. If he didn't want his works to be interpreted differently, wouldn't he have ensured his estate would not allow his works to be adapted at all unless done specifically to his vision? That isn't the case here so his estate are participating in this show in the spirit of what they believe JRR wanted while honoring the fact that time has changed. They know him far better than we ever will.
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Post by Warrior Wed Sep 07, 2022 2:19 am

Just to be clear i meant precisely the words that i wrote. I don't understand your reply

Anyways the black Aragorn was not a good example i doubt it goes this far. A better example is the asian girl in Star Wars, clearly just a token of appreciation for asian viewers, ruined the credibility of this character for me. Somehow i never had those thoughts for Mace Windu, probably because i was not overwhelmed by wokeism like today. Finn i was able to overcome since he is the second character of a new story... not an empty character

The main target of my post was to discuss the hostile reaction towards diversity it goes beyond whether or not it's objectively good thing to include bipoc characters, since everybody in their right mind agree on that.
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Post by Myesyats Wed Sep 07, 2022 9:39 am

McLewis wrote:
Myesyats wrote:I can understand McLewis' POV, but personally I wouldnt want an entire franchise altered just because the political climate warrants it. To me, it feels forced and the responses from creators/actors are not satisfactory.

For the record, I had no problem with black elves in Netflix's adaptation of The Witcher, because in the lore their looks are left to the imagination beyond the usual slender body type and pointy ears. It's not about race at all, just being respectful to the source material.

I'm not telling the creators what they should create, but if they take creative liberties then they should be ready to face criticism. Saying "well it's because you're racist" doesn't cut it, or saying "just wanted to have less whites on screen haha" is a bit out there.

As you say, having diversity doesn't make a show bad, but it also doesnt make it automatically good.


What agenda are any of the BIPOC actors or the showrunners in these shows pushing? Can you provide examples?

Do you get mad at these shows when the teeth of some of the characters are pearly white and not dirty? How about their body odor? How about the existence of food like potatoes despite the fact they didn't exist in Medieval Europe, which is where 2 of these shows are based upon. Potatoes hail from South America.

There are a million inaccuracies that separate the source material from the adaptation. No one bats an eye at a veggie from the region with majority Black and Brown people, but put those actual people in the same story and all of a sudden, it's woke, political virtue signaling.

Seriously, man?

I'm not mad (perhaps it's my writing style that makes you think this but this isn't the case), and yes I try to point out any discrepancies and any obvious attempts to stray away from the source material. This is the racism thread thus we're only mentioning race but people take issue with everything that  "doesnt fit": story arcs, costumes, setting, dialogue incompatible with time period (I'm looking at you, Persuasion), score and so on.

There are plenty of narrative issues I take with House of the Dragon, from Rhaenys having the best claim to the throne to Mysaria being without child... these tweaks done to address racism, sexism and so on are clearly agenda and politically driven


But since this is the racism thread, lets circle back. If you make House Velaryon black, you would have to follow the thread, since....

1. Alyssa Valeyron is the mother of both Jaeherys and Alysanne = them and their kids should be of darker skin.
so...
2. Baeleon Targaryen (son of Jaeherys and Alysanne) married his sister Alyssa and had Viserys + Daemon so they should both be darker-skinned  in the series which they aren't
then...
3. Aegon, Rhanerya, Aemond and Daeron should then be mixed race.
and on top of that...
4. Rhaenys as well since she's the daughter of Aemon + Jocelyn, who is the daughter of Alyssa Valeryon

If you do it, at least be consistent. In that case the Targaryens should be mixed or black as well?
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Post by McLewis Wed Sep 07, 2022 4:22 pm

Warrior wrote:Just to be clear i meant precisely the words that i wrote. I don't understand your reply

Anyways the black Aragorn was not a good example i doubt it goes this far. A better example is the asian girl in Star Wars, clearly just a token of appreciation for asian viewers, ruined the credibility of this character for me. Somehow i never had those thoughts for Mace Windu, probably because i was not overwhelmed by wokeism like today. Finn i was able to overcome since he is the second character of a new story... not an empty character

The main target of my post was to discuss the hostile reaction towards diversity it goes beyond whether or not it's objectively good thing to include bipoc characters, since everybody in their right mind agree on that.


My reply was meant to address that the Tolkien estate did not make these decisions to be woke or because they have political agenda. These accusations do not stand up to scrutiny.

As for Kelly Tran's character in Star Wars, I'm confused by your comment. You accuse the production team of tokenizing her character, yet you didn't mention Donnie Yen's turn in Rogue One. How about Jiang Wen from the same movie? Rogue One came out a year before The Last Jedi so I think your charge of tokenism is not accurate. Tran's character was poorly written and I don't think her performance was great, but none of that has anything to do with her being Asian. I think you need to reflect on why you singled her out for that tokenism charge and no one else.
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Post by McLewis Wed Sep 07, 2022 4:38 pm

Myesyats wrote:
McLewis wrote:
Myesyats wrote:I can understand McLewis' POV, but personally I wouldnt want an entire franchise altered just because the political climate warrants it. To me, it feels forced and the responses from creators/actors are not satisfactory.

For the record, I had no problem with black elves in Netflix's adaptation of The Witcher, because in the lore their looks are left to the imagination beyond the usual slender body type and pointy ears. It's not about race at all, just being respectful to the source material.

I'm not telling the creators what they should create, but if they take creative liberties then they should be ready to face criticism. Saying "well it's because you're racist" doesn't cut it, or saying "just wanted to have less whites on screen haha" is a bit out there.

As you say, having diversity doesn't make a show bad, but it also doesnt make it automatically good.


What agenda are any of the BIPOC actors or the showrunners in these shows pushing? Can you provide examples?

Do you get mad at these shows when the teeth of some of the characters are pearly white and not dirty? How about their body odor? How about the existence of food like potatoes despite the fact they didn't exist in Medieval Europe, which is where 2 of these shows are based upon. Potatoes hail from South America.

There are a million inaccuracies that separate the source material from the adaptation. No one bats an eye at a veggie from the region with majority Black and Brown people, but put those actual people in the same story and all of a sudden, it's woke, political virtue signaling.

Seriously, man?

I'm not mad (perhaps it's my writing style that makes you think this but this isn't the case), and yes I try to point out any discrepancies and any obvious attempts to stray away from the source material. This is the racism thread thus we're only mentioning race but people take issue with everything that  "doesnt fit": story arcs, costumes, setting, dialogue incompatible with time period (I'm looking at you, Persuasion), score and so on.

There are plenty of narrative issues I take with House of the Dragon, from Rhaenys having the best claim to the throne to Mysaria being without child... these tweaks done to address racism, sexism and so on are clearly agenda and politically driven


But since this is the racism thread, lets circle back. If you make House Velaryon black, you would have to follow the thread, since....

1. Alyssa Valeyron is the mother of both Jaeherys and Alysanne = them and their kids should be of darker skin.
so...
2. Baeleon Targaryen (son of Jaeherys and Alysanne) married his sister Alyssa and had Viserys + Daemon so they should both be darker-skinned  in the series which they aren't
then...
3. Aegon, Rhanerya, Aemond and Daeron should then be mixed race.
and on top of that...
4. Rhaenys as well since she's the daughter of Aemon + Jocelyn, who is the daughter of Alyssa Valeryon

If you do it, at least be consistent. In that case the Targaryens should be mixed or black as well?


So if you're not mad, what are you? Bothered? Annoyed? Irritated? Why is there such an obsession and an insistence on purity when it comes these adaptations? Help me understand it because I honestly don't and that's down to the fact that it's frankly impractical to expect any adaptation to be unerringly exact to the source material so I don't.

As for the Velaryon and Targaryon bloodlines, I suggest we go back further in time. The Targaryen's escaped the Doom by fleeing to Dragonstone, just off the coast of Westeros. However, the Velaryons did not follow them immediately. They are a seafaring family known for exploration so that's what they did. This is how they come in contact with people of darker skin and unlike the patently racist Targaryens, who were obsessed with blood purity, the Velaryons did not have such hang ups so they intermixed with the people they met through their explorations. This darkened the skin of later generations to the point that by the time they joined the Targaryens in Westeros, they were decidedly darker than they had been generations before. The only reason they were allowed to intermix with the Targaryens is because of their Valyrian blood, which remained prominent primarily in their hair color.

Further, and to step outside of Westeros for a bit, there are plenty of white people who have ancestors that were darker in skin color. This is rarely ever apparent to them or others. Ancestry tests have found this stuff out with ease. Hard to believe? Sure. Impossible? not at all. So just because the Targaryens we see in this show are all white as marble, doesn't mean they don't have some Black in them due to their intermixing with the darker complected Velaryons. That line of thinking is not in keeping with what we know of genetics. I think it's also important to remember that Targaryens will only intermix with other Houses when they have no choice to do so. This is not been the case on enough occassions for their skin to darken generationally to the level that we've seen with the Velaryons, who did this consistently for over 200 years between the Doom and the Conquest.
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Post by Warrior Wed Sep 07, 2022 11:51 pm

McLewis wrote:
Warrior wrote:Just to be clear i meant precisely the words that i wrote. I don't understand your reply

Anyways the black Aragorn was not a good example i doubt it goes this far. A better example is the asian girl in Star Wars, clearly just a token of appreciation for asian viewers, ruined the credibility of this character for me. Somehow i never had those thoughts for Mace Windu, probably because i was not overwhelmed by wokeism like today. Finn i was able to overcome since he is the second character of a new story... not an empty character

The main target of my post was to discuss the hostile reaction towards diversity it goes beyond whether or not it's objectively good thing to include bipoc characters, since everybody in their right mind agree on that.


My reply was meant to address that the Tolkien estate did not make these decisions to be woke or because they have political agenda. These accusations do not stand up to scrutiny.

As for Kelly Tran's character in Star Wars, I'm confused by your comment. You accuse the production team of tokenizing her character, yet you didn't mention Donnie Yen's turn in Rogue One. How about Jiang Wen from the same movie? Rogue One came out a year before The Last Jedi so I think your charge of tokenism is not accurate. Tran's character was poorly written and I don't think her performance was great, but none of that has anything to do with her being Asian. I think you need to reflect on why you singled her out for that tokenism charge and no one else.


I just want my posts to be read for the words they contain. Instead of replying with socratic questioning, finding incoherences to point out anybody disagreeing with you as subconsiously racist, mysogine, homophobic etc.

When everybody else is white i assume every diverse character is a token of appreciation, a mandatory diversity, that's the level of cynism i'm at towards inclusivity. Maybe it's a terrible thing but then i will never boycott anything because there's diversity in it, the only effect is ruin the credibility of SOME of those characters in MY eyes (side characters most of the time) rarely it's a problem with main characters, if the fellowship of the ring has a bipoc friend and it is explained from the lore who cares. Or whatever example of a good character who happens to be bipoc. I notice a difference and it's cool. But a bad/empty/remake bipoc character nowadays, it's like he has "woke" written on his forehead, which i cannot get over because i suffer overdose of virtue signaling. It's a feeling hard to explain, here i tried my best.

I singled Kelly Tran out because the character was not good enough to see otherwise. I have not seen Rogue One so i cannot tell, it goes case by case.

Tolkien is dead since many years. His estate are different people from different era and could very well be influenced by woke ideology there is no proof if yes or no.
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Post by Myesyats Thu Sep 08, 2022 2:34 am

McLewis wrote:So if you're not mad, what are you? Bothered? Annoyed? Irritated? Why is there such an obsession and an insistence on purity when it comes these adaptations? Help me understand it because I honestly don't and that's down to the fact that it's frankly impractical to expect any adaptation to be unerringly exact to the source material so I don't.

As for the Velaryon and Targaryon bloodlines, I suggest we go back further in time. The Targaryen's escaped the Doom by fleeing to Dragonstone, just off the coast of Westeros. However, the Velaryons did not follow them immediately. They are a seafaring family known for exploration so that's what they did. This is how they come in contact with people of darker skin and unlike the patently racist Targaryens, who were obsessed with blood purity, the Velaryons did not have such hang ups so they intermixed with the people they met through their explorations. This darkened the skin of later generations to the point that by the time they joined the Targaryens in Westeros, they were decidedly darker than they had been generations before. The only reason they were allowed to intermix with the Targaryens is because of their Valyrian blood, which remained prominent primarily in their hair color.

Further, and to step outside of Westeros for a bit, there are plenty of white people who have ancestors that were darker in skin color. This is rarely ever apparent to them or others. Ancestry tests have found this stuff out with ease. Hard to believe? Sure. Impossible? not at all. So just because the Targaryens we see in this show are all white as marble, doesn't mean they don't have some Black in them due to their intermixing with the darker complected Velaryons. That line of thinking is not in keeping with what we know of genetics. I think it's also important to remember that Targaryens will only intermix with other Houses when they have no choice to do so. This is not been the case on enough occassions for their skin to darken generationally to the level that we've seen with the Velaryons, who did this consistently for over 200 years between the Doom and the Conquest.

This argumentation is far more plausible than anything that came from the creators of the show, really, but the Targaryens were comfortable intermarrying with House Velaryon for a reason. Considering they were obsessed with genetic purity and resorted to incest oftentimes, It's quite hard for me to believe them being comfortable intermixing  beyond their race. Then again House Velaryon is also nobility, what's in it for them to intermarry with just about anyone on their voyages and bastards dont really matter. Point being, cant imagine the mainline marrying non-nobles, frankly. I could see intermixing happen the way you describe but hardly on the mainline.
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Post by McLewis Thu Sep 08, 2022 3:17 am

Warrior wrote:
McLewis wrote:
Warrior wrote:Just to be clear i meant precisely the words that i wrote. I don't understand your reply

Anyways the black Aragorn was not a good example i doubt it goes this far. A better example is the asian girl in Star Wars, clearly just a token of appreciation for asian viewers, ruined the credibility of this character for me. Somehow i never had those thoughts for Mace Windu, probably because i was not overwhelmed by wokeism like today. Finn i was able to overcome since he is the second character of a new story... not an empty character

The main target of my post was to discuss the hostile reaction towards diversity it goes beyond whether or not it's objectively good thing to include bipoc characters, since everybody in their right mind agree on that.


My reply was meant to address that the Tolkien estate did not make these decisions to be woke or because they have political agenda. These accusations do not stand up to scrutiny.

As for Kelly Tran's character in Star Wars, I'm confused by your comment. You accuse the production team of tokenizing her character, yet you didn't mention Donnie Yen's turn in Rogue One. How about Jiang Wen from the same movie? Rogue One came out a year before The Last Jedi so I think your charge of tokenism is not accurate. Tran's character was poorly written and I don't think her performance was great, but none of that has anything to do with her being Asian. I think you need to reflect on why you singled her out for that tokenism charge and no one else.


I just want my posts to be read for the words they contain. Instead of replying with socratic questioning, finding incoherences to point out anybody disagreeing with you as subconsiously racist, mysogine, homophobic etc.

When everybody else is white i assume every diverse character is a token of appreciation, a mandatory diversity, that's the level of cynism i'm at towards inclusivity. Maybe it's a terrible thing but then i will never boycott anything because there's diversity in it, the only effect is ruin the credibility of SOME of those characters in MY eyes (side characters most of the time) rarely it's a problem with main characters, if the fellowship of the ring has a bipoc friend and it is explained from the lore who cares. Or whatever example of a good character who happens to be bipoc. I notice a difference and it's cool. But a bad/empty/remake bipoc character nowadays, it's like he has "woke" written on his forehead, which i cannot get over because i suffer overdose of virtue signaling. It's a feeling hard to explain, here i tried my best.

I singled Kelly Tran out because the character was not good enough to see otherwise. I have not seen Rogue One so i cannot tell, it goes case by case.

Tolkien is dead since many years. His estate are different people from different era and could very well be influenced by woke ideology there is no proof if yes or no.


I think you want your words interpreted exactly as you intended them when you spoke them. That's not how this works. Once you say something, especially on the internet, you have very little control over how it will be interpreted. I therefore standby my interpretation of what you said.

Do you have any evidence to support your assertion that the Tolkien estate are operating under a "woke" ideology? Could it be possible that they are simply expressing DEI and that makes you uncomfortable?

I recommend you watch Rogue One. It's the best of the newer Star Wars movies. Donnie Yen and Jiang Wen 2 reasons why. Say what you will about Tran's character in the movie, but she didn't deserve the racist vitriol she received simply for accepting a one-in-a-life-time role in one of the greatest franchises of all time. Her dream became a nightmare because people couldn't handle the fact that her character wasn't written expressly for a white actress.
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