USA Gun Violence & Police Brutality Thread

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Post by Freeza Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:50 pm

Myesyats wrote:
Freeza wrote:How did we go from statues of slave traders to “entire culture”. If statues of oppressors is your entire culture you should get more cultured.


Freeza wrote:Nobody ever learned about history from a statue lol.

Statues are relics of worship. Tear them down for good. All of them.

You meant ALL statues here, no? Make up your mind then; all of them, only confederate generals or everyone who has oppressed somebody? Because that'd pretty much encompass almost every king living ever lol.

And I'm not here to judge what is art and what is not. It's subjective, I guess. Sculptures are, imo, art. And thats what many statues are.


Yeah I meant all statues as it pertains to the current topic of the thread.

It’s dumb to have obviously hurtful monument in full display without any form of historical context.

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:51 pm

Let's not act like ordering all your men to cut off the natives limbs and rape their women was just as common as taking a stroll to Church back in the 1490s. There are some things that have always been wrong.

This includes some quotes about how even his contemporaries thought he was cruel: https://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/zinncol1.html


Last edited by BarrileteCosmico on Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Freeza Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:51 pm

Harmonica wrote:You could dig up bad things just about any historical figure, where does it end? That's the most dangerous problem in today's sjw's, they are destroying the reasonable thinking in the world, and free thought. Did you know Chaplin was a pedophile in today's standards, he married a 16 year old girl at one point. Why not delete all his movies then? Why not delete all the movies pre 60's? Because I'm sure one of the production members were something bad.

Again, which movie has been deleted?

Also which part of history is erased by not having statues of confederate soldiers and slave traders everywhere?

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Post by Harmonica Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:55 pm

Why is internet still on, it's full of hateful stuff? Lets end it. I'm almost for that, if it ends the propaganda of "flat earthers" and sjw's. But then again cults like scientology would grow even more, when nobody would see how ridiculous they are. And everyone would just get even more brainwashed in their blue boxes.
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Post by Harmonica Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:00 pm

Why is religion still on, they burned women in the middle ages, for not agreeing being tortured? Lets delete the religion. What will we throw next in the delete pipe?


Last edited by Harmonica on Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:03 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by Freeza Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:02 pm

Harmonica wrote:Why is religion still on, they burned women in the middle ages, for not agreeing being tortured? Lets delete the religion. What next in the delete pipe?


I don’t want religion in public either. I assume that’s true for most of us.

And I’m sure most Abrahamic religions would agree with me on that.
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Post by Harmonica Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:10 pm

Freaking water, it's been used in several methods of torture. We need to destroy all the water in the world.
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Post by Harmonica Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:24 pm

Oh shit we just died.
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Post by Freeza Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:27 pm

Harmonica wrote:Oh shit we just died.


All for the better tbh


Last edited by Freeza on Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Warrior Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:27 pm

Funny how things turned out

Not that i care about Gone with the wind in particular, i know the purpose of deleting is to have a new version with explanations of the context.

 USA Gun Violence & Police Brutality Thread - Page 24 F344e810


June 2020 month of the liberal phonies, everything they dream for materializes. But this will backlash. Above color one thing that unites people is common sense.

Quite clear the current narrative is "triggering the conservatives" Laughing in other words put all energy on a skirmish and forget the war

Minneapolis PD getting dismantled for their mediocre competence at protecting citizens, that is real positive news. And i do think the anger of black community has been heard, and has open some minds on systemic racism. But cancel culture does the opposite, it raise cynism and give reasons to discredit the cause.
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Post by Babun Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:28 pm

Freeza wrote:Nobody ever learned about history from a statue lol.

Statues are relics of worship. Tear them down for good. All of them. Black people still carrying the pain of slave-era US shouldn't have to look at the people responsible being honoured.

Should we erect Hitler-statues in Israel or Germany?

You want history? Read a fucking book or watch a Ken Burns documentary.

 USA Gun Violence & Police Brutality Thread - Page 24 44p9fz

Any statue which was erected and wasn't torn down during its epoche is a sign of the historical and cultural importance of the figure.
BarrileteCosmico wrote:Columbus is probably the most important person in history, he single-handedly heralded a change in the entire world. The joining of the "old" and "new" world cannot be overstated, and affected both profoundly.

That said, Columbus himself was a complete ass, a slave-taker, a rapist, he began the genocide of native peoples, and in no way deserves to be celebrated.

Honestly I don't have much of an issue with his statue as it is of great historical import (could go one way or the other, nearly every "great" man was an awful human being: Ceasar, Columbus, Churchill, Maradona) as long as his flaws are made clear in the ever-failing US educational system. Which they're not. So take it down so more people can find out about what an ass he was.

Columbus isn't suppressing anyone today. He isn't a sign for the far right movement or racism. The symbolism of the statue is solely due to the "discovery" of America. You know what's racism and outright crime? Wanting to rewrite the past to fit own's narrative. All dictatorships resolve to this at some point. The past is there to highlight the mistakes or successes and to learn from it. Just because for you or some other people, it's ok to destroy the statue or it doesn't have much value, it doesn't mean people can just destroy public property or cultural heritage without the consensus of the rest for their agenda. Crime of the highest order, it's worse than physically attacking a policist and I mean it.
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Post by Freeza Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:39 pm

The statues were erected some 50 years after the civil war. At least the American ones.

A statue like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee_Monument_(Charlottesville,_Virginia)

I don't how anyone can support memorials of traitors who became traitors because they wanted to continue violating other humans.

And the Columbus statue was erected in 1927.

Funny how all these supposed historical and cultural landmarks just so happened to coincide with the rise of the KKK in the south hmm
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Post by Freeza Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:40 pm

Warrior wrote:Funny how things turned out

Not that i care about Gone with the wind in particular, i know the purpose of deleting is to have a new version with explanations of the context.

 USA Gun Violence & Police Brutality Thread - Page 24 F344e810


June 2020 month of the liberal phonies, everything they dream for materializes. But this will backlash. Above color one thing that unites people is common sense.

Quite clear the current narrative is "triggering the conservatives" Laughing in other words put all energy on a skirmish and forget the war

Minneapolis PD getting dismantled for their mediocre competence at protecting citizens, that is real positive news. And i do think the anger of black community has been heard, and has open some minds on systemic racism. But cancel culture does the opposite, it raise cynism and give reasons to discredit the cause.


What's next?

Buying the blu-ray of the film?

Imagine trying to punish corporations by buying stuff they already own in some part.
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Post by Art Morte Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:44 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
Art Morte wrote:Mobs should not be tearing down statues, but they should be discussed and perhaps voted on by local officials whether to keep or remove them.

Removing harmless old movies is stupid, however, and will probably do more bad than good.


Art in 1990, probably: People should not take down Stalin's statue. They should be discussed and perhaps voted on by local officials whether to keep or remove them.


Well, I do believe in democracy over mob rule.

If people or elected politicians vote to take something down, I'm all for it, but I'm against mobs taking those matters in their own hands.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:29 pm

Art Morte wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:
Art Morte wrote:Mobs should not be tearing down statues, but they should be discussed and perhaps voted on by local officials whether to keep or remove them.

Removing harmless old movies is stupid, however, and will probably do more bad than good.


Art in 1990, probably: People should not take down Stalin's statue. They should be discussed and perhaps voted on by local officials whether to keep or remove them.


Well, I do believe in democracy over mob rule.

If people or elected politicians vote to take something down, I'm all for it, but I'm against mobs taking those matters in their own hands.


What if the democracy is oppressive? Surely not everything should be left to the 'democracy of the masses', right? I hope I don't have to go into terrible decisions made by democracies all throughout history. A democracy that does not protect the rights of the weakest is a democracy in name only and is instead mob rule, which you claim to be against.

And while we can disagree about whether someone has a "right" to walk down the street without seeing something offensive, I think we can agree that the US govt, who fought a civil war about slavery and came on slavery's side, shouldn't be lionizing slave traders, owners, and people who fought for the losing side.
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Post by Young Kaz Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:36 pm

Take it from me, someone born and raised literally right up the street from where gone with the wind is supposed to take place.

Its a shit film about a shit period of history. The only good thing about it was that Hattie Mcdaniel got her well-deserved oscar.


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Post by Myesyats Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:55 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Let's not act like ordering all your men to cut off the natives limbs and rape their women was just as common as taking a stroll to Church back in the 1490s. There are some things that have always been wrong.

This includes some quotes about how even his contemporaries thought he was cruel: https://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/zinncol1.html

Well, I'm not going to argue against that.

But those brave men who are going after him better find some more free time because there's MANY more Columbus statues around the world, in ALL of these places:

   2.1 Argentina
   2.2 The Bahamas
   2.3 Belgium
   2.4 Bolivia
   2.5 Brazil
   2.6 Canada
   2.7 Chile
   2.8 Colombia
   2.9 Costa Rica
   2.10 Cuba
   2.11 Dominican Republic
   2.12 Ecuador
   2.13 Egypt
   2.14 El Salvador
   2.15 Guatemala
   2.16 Haiti
   2.17 Honduras
   2.18 Italy
   2.19 Jamaica
   2.20 Japan
   2.21 Mexico
   2.22 Nicaragua
   2.23 Panama
   2.24 Paraguay
   2.25 Peru
   2.26 Portugal
   2.27 Spain
  2.28.1 District of Columbia
  2.28.2 Maryland
  2.28.3 Massachusetts
  2.28.4 New York
  2.28.5 Ohio
  2.28.6 Pennsylvania
  2.28.7 Virginia
  2.28.8 Puerto Rico
  2.29 Uruguay
  2.30 Venezuela


I'm sure the KKK put all of those up on their round trip around the world hmm
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Post by Thimmy Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:57 am

Myesyats wrote:
Freeza wrote:How did we go from statues of slave traders to “entire culture”. If statues of oppressors is your entire culture you should get more cultured.


Freeza wrote:Nobody ever learned about history from a statue lol.

Statues are relics of worship. Tear them down for good. All of them.

You meant ALL statues here, no? Make up your mind then; all of them, only confederate generals or everyone who has oppressed somebody? Because that'd pretty much encompass almost every king living ever lol.

And I'm not here to judge what is art and what is not. It's subjective, I guess. Sculptures are, imo, art. And thats what many statues are.


Yesterday, someone tagged «racist» on a monument of Danish/Norwegian king, Christian Kvart who founded Christiania (now Oslo) during the early 16th century.

A local historian was asked what motive the vandal could have had for picking that particular object, and she concluded that, if it wasn’t picked at random, it was probably a result of someone googling the name and finding out that he also founded the danish, «Ostidinske companiet», which was a trading company that had the king’s blessing to wage war and occupy a certain area between South America and South Africa.

The historian pointed out that Christian Kvart belonged to a time when random women were accused of being witches and publically burnt on a stake, if storms happened to occur in a nearby ocean. She uses the word «anachronism», which describes something that occurs in a time where circumstances, development in culture and knowledge shouldn’t allow for it to occur.

She compared it to complaining that the vikings had issues with ADHD and aggression. I wasn’t familiar with the word, anachronism, but I’ll definitely remember it from now on.
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Post by CBarca Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:19 am

The statue thing is such a non issue to me. I had opinions on it when it was previously a big thing after Charlottesville, but now I can't honestly give a shit.

The way I currently feel is:

1) if it seems to attract bad types (white supremacists, Nazis, racists in general) then it should fuck off.

2) If it was raised a while after the historical event (like Confederate statues in Jim Crow times), then it hasn't really been raised in good faith. It can go

3) Everything else...who cares?

Only thing that kinda gets me on edge is people who want to remove like, statues of Lincoln because, despite all of the amazing things he did, he did a couple bad things once.
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Post by LeVersacci Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:58 am

Art Morte wrote:Mobs should not be tearing down statues, but they should be discussed and perhaps voted on by local officials whether to keep or remove them.
Confederate statues has no place in this world. Especially when the statues that represent the white trash losers of a war, got put up in mid 1900 to intimidate black people.

I hope they rip every one of them in their path of destruction.
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Post by Myesyats Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:01 am

Confederate statues I agree because that was the only thing they stood for: preserving slavery, nothing else. But not every historical figure stood for that, or only for that, or mainly for that, even though in their time slavery happened to be prevalent.

Spraying "racist" on a 16th century Norwegian king monument is just simply braindead to me. What exactly does it achieve? Kings were opressors by nature, sure. But let's look at the masterpiece cities they erected which are now flooded by tourists and pilgrims, and the whole lot of f...ing good they have done. It just so happened that they lived during a time where everyone waged war on the other just for no reason and that was the day-to-day.

It's not like Putin forcing troops onto Ukraine and annexing Crimea in 2014 is the same as some fucking king invading some place in 1400 and burning some shit down on the way. Both used military action to seize land by force but it's the timeline that counts mostly. Obviously Putin is now shunned and that king, I'm sure at the time, was hailed as a legend because that was the time he was living in. It's not like civil rights movements were popular back then and everyone was so enlightened and had access to knowledge. Now everyone is so smart because you can just google anything right away and go out on the street to protest because we have beautiful Democracies.
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Post by Art Morte Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:42 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
Art Morte wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:


Art in 1990, probably: People should not take down Stalin's statue. They should be discussed and perhaps voted on by local officials whether to keep or remove them.


Well, I do believe in democracy over mob rule.

If people or elected politicians vote to take something down, I'm all for it, but I'm against mobs taking those matters in their own hands.


What if the democracy is oppressive? Surely not everything should be left to the 'democracy of the masses', right? I hope I don't have to go into terrible decisions made by democracies all throughout history. A democracy that does not protect the rights of the weakest is a democracy in name only and is instead mob rule, which you claim to be against.

And while we can disagree about whether someone has a "right" to walk down the street without seeing something offensive, I think we can agree that the US govt, who fought a civil war about slavery and came on slavery's side, shouldn't be lionizing slave traders, owners, and people who fought for the losing side.


Starting to take exceptions to democratic decision-making opens a can of worms. You lose accountability, you cannot draw the line between what's an acceptable exception and what's not and it creates mob mentality among groups of people. "That group did that thing, okay, we will do this thing as retaliation."

I'm 99% against mobs on the streets taking matters into their own hands, the 1% for it is only if people's lives are being threatened and they need to protect themselves.
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Post by danyjr Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:44 am

With that thinking, you should be removing the statues of Gandhi, as he had a "disdain" for African people. Leonardo da Vinci thought of women as second class citizens, all of his statues and artwork should be removed too. And while we are at it, religions were the primary cause of many deaths in Europe during the dark ages, should we burn the churches to the ground too? It was a different time ffs, these people did not have the same understanding of the world as we do now. Imagine in a 100 years our grandchildren might think of us as savages for eating other animals and wearing their skins.

Why are we trying to delete history? Isn't the point of history to learn from the past's mistakes? Leave those statues with a description of who these people are, leave all the good and the bad. These statues are not to be celebrated but to show the history.


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Post by rincon Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:45 am

The statue thing is happening here in Belgium and with good fucking reason. There are statues of Leopold II all over the country, most erected well after his death.

He was a colonial king in late 19th, early 20th century, that took it upon himself to run Congo as his private enterprise and became a symbol of extreme cruelty. Estimates of the death toll of his mandate in Congo are on the order of 10 million Congolese. He built a bunch of shit in Belgium with the riches he siphoned out of Africa.

When knowledge of what he was doing in Congo became widespread in Belgium he was stripped of his command of Congo and by the time of his death he was booed by crowds during his funeral.

In the decades that followed in the 20th century he was "forgotten" as a genocidal maniac, and became the "builder king" in belgium. Statues went up and his legacy in the form of the many rich buildings in Belgium became what stuck on people's minds.

Now every few years people get outraged at his presence in the country and protest the statues. It looks like finally some are being taken down. GTFO with the history argument, that's what books and museums are for.

Put the statues in museums where they can be properly contextualized. Not as a proud king standing or riding his horse triumphantly in public spaces, but in areas meant to teach about the crimes he committed.
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Post by danyjr Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:47 am

rincon wrote:Put the statues in museums where they can be properly contextualized. Not as a proud king standing or riding his horse triumphantly in public spaces, but in areas meant to teach about the crimes he committed.
Thumbs up
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Post by Young Kaz Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:08 pm

danyjr wrote:With that thinking, you should be removing the statues of Gandhi, as he had a "disdain" for African people. Leonardo da Vinci thought of women as second class citizens, all of his statues and artwork should be removed too. And while we are at it, religions were the primary cause of many deaths in Europe during the dark ages, should we burn the churches to the ground too? It was a different time ffs, these people did not have the same understanding of the world as we do now. Imagine in a 100 years our grandchildren might think of us as savages for eating other animals and wearing their skins.

Why are we trying to delete history? Isn't the point of history to learn from the past's mistakes? Leave those statues with a description of who these people are, leave all the good and the bad. These statues are not to be celebrated but to show the history.


Gandhi statues in Africa have been removed.

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