USA Gun Violence & Police Brutality Thread

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Post by Thimmy Wed 10 Jun 2020 - 19:22

Ah, thanks for clarifying. I haven’t seen that.

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Post by Myesyats Wed 10 Jun 2020 - 19:23

Havent seen "Gone With the Wind" in a long time but I've read it does depict a "romanticised Lost Cause Civil War historiography, full of happy slaves, benign masters and corrupt Northern carpetbaggers" and even back in 1939 civil rights groups boycotted the movie.

Also from what I understand they didnt ban the movie, they're just not showing it temporarily because of the situation. I don't think it helps though, in fact people have even more incentive to download and watch it now that it's "censored".
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Post by Freeza Wed 10 Jun 2020 - 19:47

Anyone outraged by Gone With The Wind being removed are the same people who wouldn't dare to touch a movie in black and white.

It's a non-issue really. It's easy to find and HBO has every right not to show it during this time. It's the highest grossing film of all time by inflation, it's not exactly at risk of not being available.
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Post by iftikhar Wed 10 Jun 2020 - 19:56

We should have a separate thread on Police Brutality. This issue very widespread and not just particular to USA.
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Post by Babun Wed 10 Jun 2020 - 20:29

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
Babun wrote:@BC
The unions aren't above the state law or hire/pay the people. They're there to improve the pay or/and working conditions. Some unions do crazy stuff to justify their existence but still they cannot breach the enforcement of the state law.
I don't believe the narrative. It's the kind of pills higher ups give to people to justify their wrongdoings. The state needs to reform its own policies as an employer THEN disband unions or police departments which aren't in line with the new framework provided by the law/policies/directives. Scapegoating never solved problems.


It's different in Germany.

Look at this video by the head of the NYPD union, does this seem like someone that would embrace whatever changes the government put in place?



Or this guy, that after the mayor changed the rules as you suggest, went out of his way to break them anyways?



Just to be clear, I'm not saying this is only the unions' fault, they are just another screwed up piece of the puzzle.

I see now where you come from. The videos give the vibe of a 3rd world country to be honest.
Art Morte wrote:BBC removed Little Britain and HBO removed Gone With the Wind, kinda ridiculous, imo.

That's harmless actionism. The group which wants the 60 statues being brought down in the process should be persecuted by the police and get the punishment of the highest order. You don't allow to destroy your own culture/identity during the peaceful times. That's the equivalent of burning books.
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Post by Myesyats Wed 10 Jun 2020 - 20:42

Babun wrote:
That's harmless actionism. The group which wants the 60 statues being brought down in the process should be persecuted by the police and get the punishment of the highest order. You don't allow to destroy your own culture/identity during the peaceful times. That's the equivalent of burning books.

The statues in question should be discussed and removed if necessary, not devastated but rather relocated to a museum.
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Post by Art Morte Wed 10 Jun 2020 - 21:04

Mobs should not be tearing down statues, but they should be discussed and perhaps voted on by local officials whether to keep or remove them.

Removing harmless old movies is stupid, however, and will probably do more bad than good.
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Post by Freeza Wed 10 Jun 2020 - 21:10

Nobody ever learned about history from a statue lol.

Statues are relics of worship. Tear them down for good. All of them. Black people still carrying the pain of slave-era US shouldn't have to look at the people responsible being honoured.

Should we erect Hitler-statues in Israel or Germany?

You want history? Read a fucking book or watch a Ken Burns documentary.
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Post by Harmonica Wed 10 Jun 2020 - 21:12

Art Morte wrote:
Removing harmless old movies is stupid, however, and will probably do more bad than good.
Definitely will do more bad than good, and can be the start of a snowball effect. Culture could take a serious hit with this kind of attitude. Where does it stop after this? Ignorant move to make, and I'm already boycotting HBO.
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Post by Freeza Wed 10 Jun 2020 - 21:19

Harmonica wrote:
Art Morte wrote:
Removing harmless old movies is stupid, however, and will probably do more bad than good.
Definitely will do more bad than good, and can be the start of a snowball effect. Culture could take a serious hit with this kind of attitude. Where does it stop after this? Ignorant move to make, and I'm already boycotting HBO.


You can literally rent in on every platform.

They're just using this as PR. Just like that blackout tuesday kind of stuff lol.

They even said the were bringing it back soon

HBO wrote:We plan to eventually bring the 1939 film back “with a discussion of its historical context.”

___

And yeah, a disclaimer like that is needed.

Here's more info on the whole story

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/10/business/media/gone-with-the-wind-hbo-max.html
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Post by Harmonica Wed 10 Jun 2020 - 21:21

Freeza wrote:
Harmonica wrote:
Art Morte wrote:
Removing harmless old movies is stupid, however, and will probably do more bad than good.
Definitely will do more bad than good, and can be the start of a snowball effect. Culture could take a serious hit with this kind of attitude. Where does it stop after this? Ignorant move to make, and I'm already boycotting HBO.


You can literally rent in on every platform.

They're just using this as PR. Just like that blackout tuesday kind of stuff lol.

They even said the were bringing it back soon

HBO wrote:We plan to eventually bring the 1939 film back “with a discussion of its historical context.”
Yeah I agree, that's was the only motive I could rationalize for it. Something like a discussion of the context is fine, and if everyone can then still choose whether to watch it or not.
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Post by M99 Wed 10 Jun 2020 - 21:37

Art Morte wrote:Mobs should not be tearing down statues, but they should be discussed and perhaps voted on by local officials whether to keep or remove them.

Removing harmless old movies is stupid, however, and will probably do more bad than good.


People have been requesting the statue of the slave trader in Bristol be removed and placed in a museum for years but they were largely ignored.

Good riddance, throwing that down the river.
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Post by Myesyats Wed 10 Jun 2020 - 21:51

Freeza wrote:Nobody ever learned about history from a statue lol.

Statues are relics of worship. Tear them down for good. All of them. Black people still carrying the pain of slave-era US shouldn't have to look at the people responsible being honoured.

Should we erect Hitler-statues in Israel or Germany?

You want history? Read a fucking book or watch a Ken Burns documentary.

Why not bulldoze the pyramids then as well? The only people who worked on the construction were slaves.

Depends on the context. For example, I would be very much against removing the statues of Christopher Columbus. He has shaped the world we are living in today.

He was a revolutionary explorer. Hitler, however, as a 20th century figure, should be obviously judged by more contemporary standards and thus I don't agree with the comparison. And he has contributed nothing positive so there's that also.
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Post by VivaStPauli Wed 10 Jun 2020 - 21:55

Myesyats wrote:Why not bulldoze the pyramids then as well? The only people who worked on the construction were slaves.

I get your point, but still, the pyramids weren't built by slaves. Laborers were paid.
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Post by Freeza Wed 10 Jun 2020 - 21:58

Myesyats wrote:
Freeza wrote:Nobody ever learned about history from a statue lol.

Statues are relics of worship. Tear them down for good. All of them. Black people still carrying the pain of slave-era US shouldn't have to look at the people responsible being honoured.

Should we erect Hitler-statues in Israel or Germany?

You want history? Read a fucking book or watch a Ken Burns documentary.

Why not bulldoze the pyramids then as well? The only people who worked on the construction were slaves.

Depends on the context. For example, I would be very much against removing the statues of Christopher Columbus. He has shaped the world we are living in today.

He was a revolutionary explorer. Hitler, however, as a 20th century figure, should be obviously judged by more contemporary standards and thus I don't agree with the comparison. And he has contributed nothing positive so there's that also.


Revolutionary explorer = literally got lost, didn't know where he ended up and took credit for discovering something that had already been visited by other civilizations not counting the ones already there.

His legacy is monetising slaves and goods in the Caribbean islands and popularising it. If that should be worshipped, sure.
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Post by Myesyats Wed 10 Jun 2020 - 22:06

Freeza wrote:Revolutionary explorer = literally got lost, didn't know where he ended up and took credit for discovering something that had already been visited by other civilizations not counting the ones already there.

Yeah dude  but do you know how brave that is to just get on a ship and go somewhere? With no medicine? Not knowing if there is land on the other side? For me, he is a prominent historical figure and a brave explorer first and foremost. There were some side effects, admittedly, but those were the standards back then. I'm not going to judge him by today's laws.

I can admit the wrongs and still celebrate the rights. That's what history is all about FFS
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Post by Freeza Wed 10 Jun 2020 - 22:07

VivaStPauli wrote:
Myesyats wrote:Why not bulldoze the pyramids then as well? The only people who worked on the construction were slaves.

I get your point, but still, the pyramids weren't built by slaves. Laborers were paid.


Also, I don't know if pyramids in themselves could be considered symbols of evil doing.

All these confederate statues are symbols of worship towards literal traitors who sought to keep people in chains. I don't see how they should be kept erect.

The history argument is done. Tell me one time where someone learned a historical fact from a statue. The history argument is weird to me. If it was about history then place those statues in a fucking museum with a factual presentation that includes information that frankly isn't available when the statues are placed in public.
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Post by Freeza Wed 10 Jun 2020 - 22:08

Myesyats wrote:
Freeza wrote:Revolutionary explorer = literally got lost, didn't know where he ended up and took credit for discovering something that had already been visited by other civilizations not counting the ones already there.

Yeah dude  but do you know how brave that is to just get on a ship and go somewhere? With no medicine? Not knowing if there is land on the other side? For me, he is a prominent historical figure and a brave explorer first and foremost. There were some side effects, admittedly, but those were the standards back then. I'm not going to judge him by today's laws.

I can admit the wrongs and still celebrate the rights. That's what history is all about FFS


Then put it in history books, museums and documentaries. Don't let that be in publics as idols of worship. That's all I'm saying.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed 10 Jun 2020 - 22:23

Art Morte wrote:Mobs should not be tearing down statues, but they should be discussed and perhaps voted on by local officials whether to keep or remove them.

Removing harmless old movies is stupid, however, and will probably do more bad than good.


Art in 1990, probably: People should not take down Stalin's statue. They should be discussed and perhaps voted on by local officials whether to keep or remove them.
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Post by Myesyats Wed 10 Jun 2020 - 22:26

I never considered statues as places of worship but more like art, in the same way I look at paintings. In fact, instead of worship I would rather use remembrance.

And I couldnt  care less about confederate soldiers. With regards to them, I agree.

But I think that statues of Socrates, Columbus, Lincoln etc. are not doing any harm to anyone.

It's batshit to erase the entire culture just because you consider it a "rule of oppression". There was oppresion everywhere all throughout history, and still is
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Post by Freeza Wed 10 Jun 2020 - 22:35

How did we go from statues of slave traders to “entire culture”. If statues of oppressors is your entire culture you should get more cultured.

Also comparing a slave trader to the president who fought a war to get rid of the slave trade.

Also I’d you consider a generic metal statue to be art. Sure. They’re clearly meant to be something to honour the person by, that’s why they look exactly like the real thing.

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Post by Freeza Wed 10 Jun 2020 - 22:37

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
Art Morte wrote:Mobs should not be tearing down statues, but they should be discussed and perhaps voted on by local officials whether to keep or remove them.

Removing harmless old movies is stupid, however, and will probably do more bad than good.


Art in 1990, probably: People should not take down Stalin's statue. They should be discussed and perhaps voted on by local officials whether to keep or remove them.


And Iraq in 2003.

Tearing down statues has forever been a symbol of liberation. And those images and that history lives on and tells more about history than a supposed historical statue has ever done.
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Post by Myesyats Wed 10 Jun 2020 - 22:43

Freeza wrote:How did we go from statues of slave traders to “entire culture”. If statues of oppressors is your entire culture you should get more cultured.


Freeza wrote:Nobody ever learned about history from a statue lol.

Statues are relics of worship. Tear them down for good. All of them.

You meant ALL statues here, no? Make up your mind then; all of them, only confederate generals or everyone who has oppressed somebody? Because that'd pretty much encompass almost every king living ever lol.

And I'm not here to judge what is art and what is not. It's subjective, I guess. Sculptures are, imo, art. And thats what many statues are.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed 10 Jun 2020 - 22:43

Columbus is probably the most important person in history, he single-handedly heralded a change in the entire world. The joining of the "old" and "new" world cannot be overstated, and affected both profoundly.

That said, Columbus himself was a complete ass, a slave-taker, a rapist, he began the genocide of native peoples, and in no way deserves to be celebrated.

Honestly I don't have much of an issue with his statue as it is of great historical import (could go one way or the other, nearly every "great" man was an awful human being: Ceasar, Columbus, Churchill, Maradona) as long as his flaws are made clear in the ever-failing US educational system. Which they're not. So take it down so more people can find out about what an ass he was.
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Post by Harmonica Wed 10 Jun 2020 - 22:45

You could dig up bad things just about any historical figure, where does it end? That's the most dangerous problem in today's sjw's, they are destroying the reasonable thinking in the world, and free thought. Did you know Chaplin was a pedophile in today's standards, he married a 16 year old girl at one point. Why not delete all his movies then? Why not delete all the movies pre 60's? Because I'm sure one of the production members were something bad.
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Post by Freeza Wed 10 Jun 2020 - 22:50

Myesyats wrote:
Freeza wrote:How did we go from statues of slave traders to “entire culture”. If statues of oppressors is your entire culture you should get more cultured.


Freeza wrote:Nobody ever learned about history from a statue lol.

Statues are relics of worship. Tear them down for good. All of them.

You meant ALL statues here, no? Make up your mind then; all of them, only confederate generals or everyone who has oppressed somebody? Because that'd pretty much encompass almost every king living ever lol.

And I'm not here to judge what is art and what is not. It's subjective, I guess. Sculptures are, imo, art. And thats what many statues are.


Yeah I meant all statues as it pertains to the current topic of the thread.

It’s dumb to have obviously hurtful monument in full display without any form of historical context.
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