Who will be the Democrats' presidential candidate against Trump?

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Post by El Gunner Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:41 pm

Pedram wrote:When slavery and exchange of slaves as a mean of trade was considered a perfectly normal feature of a 17~18th century society, nobody even thought of a different world where humans regardless of the color of their skins would have equal rights, call me a hopeless optimist but I earnestly believe it's the same with capitalism, it's still possible to make the world a better place for everyone, one day it will be considered insufficient and outdated, only the time frame where we move away from this feature is unknown.


brother Molenation bless

Viva wrote:I read a lot of anarchist philosphy, back in the day, anything Proudhon or Bakunin would throw out, and it's very romantic, and I like it.
pls share

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Post by Freeza Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:06 pm

Slavery is more prevalent than ever
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Post by CBarca Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:21 pm

El Gunner wrote:then you guys still dont understand, maybe one day you will


You wonder why I "jump on you" with respect to my responses but it's stuff like this.

You constantly talk ideals of communism and spout relatively anti-science rhetoric. Then when people debate you or call you out on it you can always fall back on "you just don't understand".

You're the Kyrie Irving of the forum.

And don't get me wrong, I love Kyrie. I don't have a problem with you and never have, but you gotta understand that when you push stuff like the things you do, like you've done here, I'm gonna push back. Cuz I think it's bullshit
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Post by CBarca Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:24 pm

As for that prediction...capitalism has been around since the beginning of time. It's not going away soon. And certainly not on a timescale that looks anything like the evolution of attitudes towards slavery.
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Post by Pedram Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:43 pm

Capitalism has not been around since the beginning of time, it took shape in the 16th century after the decline of feudalism (landlords losing status) and the merchant class gaining power, before that there was a prototype form of capitalism which was called mercantilism, opposition to free trade (a central tenet of modern day capitalism) and the state protecting its merchants.


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Post by El Gunner Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:00 pm

CBarca wrote:
El Gunner wrote:then you guys still dont understand, maybe one day you will


You wonder why I "jump on you" with respect to my responses but it's stuff like this.

You constantly talk ideals of communism and spout relatively anti-science rhetoric. Then when people debate you or call you out on it you can always fall back on "you just don't understand".

You're the Kyrie Irving of the forum.

And don't get me wrong, I love Kyrie. I don't have a problem with you and never have, but you gotta understand that when you push stuff like the things you do, like you've done here, I'm gonna push back. Cuz I think it's bullshit


Laughing
because misunderstandings happen.
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Post by CBarca Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:42 am

So Blue...

Bernie endorses Joe Biden for president...what do you think?

ALL ABOARD THE UNCLE JOE TRAIN

Edit: I'm an idiot and forgot Bernie said he would support whoever the nominee is
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Post by Blue Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:41 pm

CBarca wrote:So Blue...

Bernie endorses Joe Biden for president...what do you think?

ALL ABOARD THE UNCLE JOE TRAIN

Edit: I'm an idiot and forgot Bernie said he would support whoever the nominee is


I honestly do not care what and who Bernie endorses. I am probably going to be a non voter, just like half of the eligible citizens in this country.

I can't vote for Biden, he has countless sexual harassment allegations, and a serious one where he is accused of rape. He is also corrupt, is virtually the corporate politicians i despise, bought and paid for by the credit card companies and wall street.

He shares none of the values i hold when it comes to foreign policy either.

Ultimately the right to exercise to vote, it is meant to be an exercise of freedom and power. I feel none of that, Biden has not been held accountable by the media or by his peers. I have come to despise Bernie Sanders too, his unwillingness to hold Biden accountable shows he is just another party man and willing to protect the corrupts. It doesn't matter how many times he stumps on the anti establishment rhetoric. It is hollow when you can't name them and go after them. Pelosi, Schumer, and Biden are the DNC establishment and represent the virus in the system.

The way the media has protected Biden is no different than what you see from a state run media propaganda in authoritarian regimes. This ones just happens to be run by the corporate and state machines.

I am not going to vote, the freedom to do nothing.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:59 pm

What about voting downballot? You might not agree with Biden, but there's a lot more at stake than the presidency.
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Post by Young Kaz Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:48 pm




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Post by FennecFox7 Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:58 am

@Blue, why do you hold Bernie to a different standard? You have this fantasy that sanders is our guardian angel, he’s setting his aside his ideals for the greater good and even that’s not enough for people like you.

We still need to understand for the record, trump is a disaster of a president. We’ve just become so desensitized to his shit that now we are holding him to a lower standard then other politicians. Stop with this nonsense, he’s a piece of shit and joe is going to be a sitting duck for 4 years, that’s better then someone who will ruin the country

You should be kissing the ground Bernie walks on, he’s done a hell of a lot for this country and the progressive movement.
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Post by FennecFox7 Wed Apr 15, 2020 2:01 am

You are putting unfair remarks on sanders, his whole life he has fought for the people and he got royally fucked by the DNC.

And then there’s guys like you who act like it’s his fault he didn’t get nominated. It really isn’t. The Democrat propaganda machine is strong.. it’s not Fox News levels but it’s getting there as of the last 4 years
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Post by Young Kaz Wed Apr 15, 2020 2:16 am

FennecFox7 wrote:You are putting unfair remarks on sanders, his whole life he has fought for the people and he got royally fucked by the DNC.

And then there’s guys like you who act like it’s his fault he didn’t get nominated. It really isn’t. The Democrat propaganda machine is strong.. it’s not Fox News levels but it’s getting there as of the last 4 years


Im sorry Bernie went up against the most hated woman in American history and a person who people would have you believe with full onset dementia. If he couldnt beat them it is certainly his fault.

He ran a divisive campaign based on purity tests that not even he could pass(as proven by him voting for the crime bill and touting the endorsement of a white supremacist who called a room full of black people "Planet of the apes"). His ideas being so popular and him not being able to turn a win against Hillary or Uncle Joe should be a point of shame for his fans.

Fair play on him for coming out big for Uncle Joe now though. The one good thing is history wont remember him in a bad light....I'd be shocked if history remembered him at all.

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Post by CBarca Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:58 am

I think there is a lot to learn for progressives in America from Sanders' failure to beat the most hated woman in American history and Uncle Joe: running on an idealistic platform like Bernie's isn't going to get you the nomination.

Bernie has shown that there is a place for progressive politics.

Bernie has also shown that he went too far to the left and failed to build broad coalitions with his policies.

And here might be the catch-22 that progressives don't want to hear. If progressives want to have any of their ilk in the White House, and if we want to move the country left, it can't be someone like Sanders. It needs to be someone who is a little more center than that and can balance progressive ideals with some more mainstream ideas that moderates can get behind.

Of course, then half the progressive base slams that particular candidate for being a corporate sellout, thus dooming the country from ever having a popular progressive candidate.

And if we're honest here: the candidate is probably going to have to be black. Black Democrats in this country are more conservative (on the whole) and this primary has really illustrated that. The Black vote is a must in any Democratic coalition. Right now, I'm not sure how much of the Black vote a progressive candidate can get based on their platform alone.

I know it might be obvious to say, but someone like Obama is who I'm envisioning here, except more committed to progressive ideals.

And now that I read back what I wrote I have to say...progressives have a helluva tight rope to walk to actually be successful. This country isn't as far left as Sanders "revolution" or the media would lead you to believe, to be honest.
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Post by sportsczy Wed Apr 15, 2020 6:03 am

Progressive ideas are very niche in the US.  They are very popular with the liberal U44 crowd (and likely U30 really; but that not how the segments are counted)... but little popularity with any of the other demographic segments.  The numbers haven't changed at all since 2016, meaning that as people have gotten older and moved into the next demographic segment, the ideals haven't carried over.  I think we'll get a better idea in another 4 years.

The bottom line is that the very young, very liberal and (I hate to say it) very naive segment of the US population are the ones this old man speaks to.  As people become more realist, experience life and develop pragmatism...  they realize that it's the ideology and nothing more.  His ideas cannot be implemented in the US.  Not enough people want them.

Keep in mind that he represents a minority of the democrats... who are literally 50% of the votes.  The other half of the US is conservative.  So you when you extrapolate his reach... it's about 10-12% of the US population. In a presidential race, that's probably 45% because dems will vote for anyone other than Trump... except for Bernie supporters who cant' stand Biden (like Blue).

A nice minority... but very clearly a minority.
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Post by FennecFox7 Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:59 am

You keep discounting the social implications of progressives. Like you don’t even mention it sports and it needs to be mentioned because that’s where the Republican Party fails miserably and even the moderate democrats. Ending the war on drugs, racism, social issues, police brutality, these effect people a whole lot more then you think.

I’m going to have a stable job within a years time. Even if the economy goes south.. I’ll have a job since I’ll be working in the health industry as an RN.

There’s naivety when it comes to the economy, but making money is not everyone’s #1 priority, particularly people not in sales or trading that just want a stable career and stable life from a STEM degree.
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Post by El Gunner Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:55 am

sportsczy wrote:Progressive ideas are very niche in the US.  They are very popular with the liberal U44 crowd (and likely U30 really; but that not how the segments are counted)... but little popularity with any of the other demographic segments.  The numbers haven't changed at all since 2016, meaning that as people have gotten older and moved into the next demographic segment, the ideals haven't carried over.  I think we'll get a better idea in another 4 years.

The bottom line is that the very young, very liberal and (I hate to say it) very naive segment of the US population are the ones this old man speaks to.  As people become more realist, experience life and develop pragmatism...  they realize that it's the ideology and nothing more.  His ideas cannot be implemented in the US.  Not enough people want them.

Keep in mind that he represents a minority of the democrats... who are literally 50% of the votes.  The other half of the US is conservative.  So you when you extrapolate his reach... it's about 10-12% of the US population. In a presidential race, that's probably 45% because dems will vote for anyone other than Trump... except for Bernie supporters who cant' stand Biden (like Blue).

A nice minority... but very clearly a minority.


jesus christ, i think i just need to read your comments on sports (pun intended).

RG is there a way i can mute someone in particular sections of the forum.

Trump is gunna win again and people like you deserve it, thankfully
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Post by Myesyats Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:13 pm

Biden is senile but as of now I do think he has a chance at Trump who is clearly losing support among many moderate republicans. Lets be honest, Trump is unfit to be in office even regardless of his political games. He's a TV show host and America is too crazy about celebrities. Politicans shouldnt be celebrities and likewise celebrities shouldnt be politicans. Cant imagine europeans walking with something like maga hats. A president is just another politican.
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Post by Myesyats Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:48 pm

now Trump is blocking WHO funding to shift the blame to them for his mismanagement of the virus

what an idiot
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Post by sportsczy Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:19 pm

I'm just really angry that the best the Dems can do is Biden or Bernie...  even the last election; only reason Trump got elected is that HC was the most disliked person in America.

Complete tone-deafness.  Nobody wants Trump other than his avid supporters.  They're like 25-35% of America.  Just give people a semi-viable alternative and you win.

This is really all on the complete incompetence of the democratic party.

The good news is that the real talent showed itself in this pandemic:  Cuomo, Gavin Newsom, and Phil Murphy.  So there's great hope for the next cycle. But when you think about it, it's not the dem party that emphasized these guys... it was circumstance. The democratic party establishment is absolutely awful at highlighting their best people.
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Post by Freeza Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:24 pm

Warren was the choice the establishment should’ve gone with.

Beto also had so much momentum going into it but he basically gave up all his personality and turned into a robot until he was virtually out of the running.

Everyone just entered the race and it hurt everyone’s chances. So many candidates ensures no one would question Biden through the campaign at all because there were too many dumb alternatives.
Bloomberg was a perfect decoy.
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Post by sportsczy Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:30 pm

FennecFox7 wrote:You keep discounting the social implications of progressives. Like you don’t even mention it sports and it needs to be mentioned because that’s where the Republican Party fails miserably and even the moderate democrats. Ending the war on drugs, racism, social issues, police brutality, these effect people a whole lot more then you think.

I’m going to have a stable job within a years time. Even if the economy goes south.. I’ll have a job since I’ll be working in the health industry as an RN.

There’s naivety when it comes to the economy, but making money is not everyone’s #1 priority, particularly people not in sales or trading that just want a stable career and stable life from a STEM degree.

I like a lot of the overall social thoughts of progressives... but they're just ideas.  It's like someone who has a commercial concept; but it's not a business.

There's a canyon between the ideas and how/if they can be executed.  Until there's bridge there, it's never going to take off.  

Taxing the rich is not a solution... that line of thought is nonsense and will never fly.  France tried the same thing.  The rich in France took their wealth and moved to a country with more advantageous fiscality....  namely UK, Belgium and Switzerland.  To put it in perspective...  they were getting 50% of 1M before (just an example); and when they pushed the taxes up to 65%, they got 65% of 100k.  So France actually got less money.

Same thing would happen in the US.


Last edited by sportsczy on Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by rincon Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:32 pm

sportsczy wrote:I'm just really angry that the best the Dems can do is Biden or Bernie...  even the last election; only reason Trump got elected is that HC was the most disliked person in America.

Complete tone-deafness.  Nobody wants Trump other than his avid supporters.  They're like 25-35% of America.  Just give people a semi-viable alternative and you win.

This is really all on the complete incompetence of the democratic party.

The good news is that the real talent showed itself in this pandemic:  Cuomo, Gavin Newsom, and Phil Murphy.  So there's great hope for the next cycle. But when you think about it, it's not the dem party that emphasized these guys... it was circumstance. The democratic party establishment is absolutely awful at highlighting their best people.

Totally agree with this. It's shocking that this is what the Democratic establishment propped up to fight Trump.

Now you have a pandemic, a crisis, the perfect opportunity for a presidential candidate (Biden) to rise to leadership and establish himself in people's minds as their leader and future president. Instead Biden sounds half senile when he rarely speaks out.

In the meantime someone like Cuomo is showing exactly how it's done, and like you say, it's out of circumstance and personal agency, not due to the Democratic party establishment.
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Post by sportsczy Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:32 pm

Freeza wrote:Warren was the choice the establishment should’ve gone with.

Beto also had so much momentum going into it but he basically gave up all his personality and turned into a robot until he was virtually out of the running.

Everyone just entered the race and it hurt everyone’s chances. So many candidates ensures no one would question Biden through the campaign at all because there were too many dumb alternatives.
Bloomberg was a perfect decoy.

She's just another version of Bernie. Don't even remember who Beto was.

You want people who have a history of success at scale. Not idealogues.

You're never going to win an election in the US with idealogues. It's impossible. This is a capitalistic society. Appealing to 10-12% of the population is never going to win you a presidential election.
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Post by CBarca Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:41 pm

El Gunner wrote:
sportsczy wrote:Progressive ideas are very niche in the US.  They are very popular with the liberal U44 crowd (and likely U30 really; but that not how the segments are counted)... but little popularity with any of the other demographic segments.  The numbers haven't changed at all since 2016, meaning that as people have gotten older and moved into the next demographic segment, the ideals haven't carried over.  I think we'll get a better idea in another 4 years.

The bottom line is that the very young, very liberal and (I hate to say it) very naive segment of the US population are the ones this old man speaks to.  As people become more realist, experience life and develop pragmatism...  they realize that it's the ideology and nothing more.  His ideas cannot be implemented in the US.  Not enough people want them.

Keep in mind that he represents a minority of the democrats... who are literally 50% of the votes.  The other half of the US is conservative.  So you when you extrapolate his reach... it's about 10-12% of the US population. In a presidential race, that's probably 45% because dems will vote for anyone other than Trump... except for Bernie supporters who cant' stand Biden (like Blue).

A nice minority... but very clearly a minority.


jesus christ, i think i just need to read your comments on sports (pun intended).

RG is there a way i can mute someone in particular sections of the forum.

Trump is gunna win again and people like you deserve it, thankfully


I've disagreed with Sports on a lot of things within the last couple of weeks, but I can't think of anything he said here that I disagree with. I guess maybe he's a bit harsh about "idealism" and people growing out of them, but I don't think he's that far off base.

What do you disagree with?
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:48 pm

sportsczy wrote:I'm just really angry that the best the Dems can do is Biden or Bernie...  even the last election; only reason Trump got elected is that HC was the most disliked person in America.

Complete tone-deafness.  Nobody wants Trump other than his avid supporters.  They're like 25-35% of America.  Just give people a semi-viable alternative and you win.

This is really all on the complete incompetence of the democratic party.

The good news is that the real talent showed itself in this pandemic:  Cuomo, Gavin Newsom, and Phil Murphy.  So there's great hope for the next cycle.  But when you think about it, it's not the dem party that emphasized these guys... it was circumstance.  The democratic party establishment is absolutely awful at highlighting their best people.


Again, though, the "establishment" only backed Biden when Biden won South Carolina and Bernie looked like he was going to take it all. Had Buttigieg won it instead, they would've backed him instead. I think people here are giving the DNC too much credit. They only backed a winner once it was effectively a 2 horse race.

sportsczy wrote:
Freeza wrote:Warren was the choice the establishment should’ve gone with.

Beto also had so much momentum going into it but he basically gave up all his personality and turned into a robot until he was virtually out of the running.

Everyone just entered the race and it hurt everyone’s chances. So many candidates ensures no one would question Biden through the campaign at all because there were too many dumb alternatives.
Bloomberg was a perfect decoy.

She's just another version of Bernie. Don't even remember who Beto was.

You want people who have a history of success at scale. Not idealogues.

You're never going to win an election in the US with idealogues. It's impossible. This is a capitalistic society. Appealing to 10-12% of the population is never going to win you a presidential election.


Warren was much more in line with the party elite than Bernie though, I wouldn't say she's an ideologue as she was able get things through congress. Although I think as a professorial (ie elite), coastal, old and female candidate it would've played similarly to Hillary in the battleground states.
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