Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?
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Re: Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?
Britain voted for Brexit because of fear of immigration. I don't think mass scale population have the ability to think in terms of economics and other problems associated with Brexit.
Re: Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?
rincon wrote:Unique you have valid concerns and points about things that are going wrong or cause problems, no doubts. While it may not be 100% correct to say "Muslims", we get your point.
No he doesn't, and no, we don't.
He's fallen prey to propaganda. It's race mongering, scapegoating. The 'Muslims' have become the idée fixe of our times similarly to how the 'Jews' were leading up to the 1930s.
Hapless_Hans- Forum Legend
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Re: Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/925727/Angela-Merkel-Germany-latest-news-no-go-zone-reality-refugee-crisis
"In Berlin or in the north of Duisburg there are neighborhoods where colleagues hardly dare to stop a car -- because they know that they'll be surrounded by 40 or 50 men." These attacks amount to a "deliberate challenge to the authority of the state -- attacks in which the perpetrators are expressing their contempt for our society," said Rainer Wendt, President of the German Police Union.
The police chief said the no-go areas could end up being ruled under criminal laws or even Sharia law, rather than those set out by the German government.
is this propaganda Hans? I think you are the one living in a lie.
"In Berlin or in the north of Duisburg there are neighborhoods where colleagues hardly dare to stop a car -- because they know that they'll be surrounded by 40 or 50 men." These attacks amount to a "deliberate challenge to the authority of the state -- attacks in which the perpetrators are expressing their contempt for our society," said Rainer Wendt, President of the German Police Union.
The police chief said the no-go areas could end up being ruled under criminal laws or even Sharia law, rather than those set out by the German government.
is this propaganda Hans? I think you are the one living in a lie.
Myesyats- World Class Contributor
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Re: Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?
I live in exactly one of these supposed 'no go areas'
Hapless_Hans- Forum Legend
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Re: Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?
Hapless_Hans wrote:rincon wrote:Unique you have valid concerns and points about things that are going wrong or cause problems, no doubts. While it may not be 100% correct to say "Muslims", we get your point.
No he doesn't, and no, we don't.
He's fallen prey to propaganda. It's race mongering, scapegoating. The 'Muslims' have become the idée fixe of our times similarly to how the 'Jews' were leading up to the 1930s.
Of course the idea of the big bad Muslim coming for you is propaganda bs, but there is still a factor there. He (and other people) may want to keep their culture a certain way which excludes mixing it too deeply with a specific culture. That's pretty much always valid. We all want to live in a place that looks and is a certain way that fits our idea of the ideal neighbourhood.
The reasons for this can be valid, or not.
rincon- World Class Contributor
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Re: Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?
rincon wrote:Hapless_Hans wrote:rincon wrote:Unique you have valid concerns and points about things that are going wrong or cause problems, no doubts. While it may not be 100% correct to say "Muslims", we get your point.
No he doesn't, and no, we don't.
He's fallen prey to propaganda. It's race mongering, scapegoating. The 'Muslims' have become the idée fixe of our times similarly to how the 'Jews' were leading up to the 1930s.
Of course the idea of the big bad Muslim coming for you is propaganda bs, but there is still a factor there. He (and other people) may want to keep their culture a certain way which excludes mixing it too deeply with a specific culture. That's pretty much always valid. We all want to live in a place that looks and is a certain way that fits our idea of the ideal neighbourhood.
The reasons for this can be valid, or not.
My point being is that you/we make a huge mistake trying to have reasonable discussions with the Brexit crowd, and the corresponding movements in our respective countries, about stuff like immigration, like you attempted.
Why?
Because they're never going to engage in an argument in good faith. Their positions are not based on reason, but based on fundamentally psychological, irrational operations like scape-goating, projecting, blame-shifting.
You can concede to them stuff about actual, factual problems in connections with the topics they circle around (as if I didn't knew there's sizeable problems connected with immigrant communities, or as if I didn't think conservative Muslims are either total clowns and dangerous bigots), but you're not going to move the discussion further to a commonground of truth or enlightement, as you aim for.
Because they're not operating in good faith, and the sources that inform them are not operating in good faith.
You'll always get replies that link to some sort of single incident where Muslims did something appalling, and I've stopped replying to that sort of nonsense.
It's bad faith arguments, non-sequiturs, there's always bull-shit, factual contradictions, irrelevant connections, if not outright fabrications involved in some levels of those 'news items', and ultimately their main point is conjuring up a broad, more or less diffuse and trans-factual, darkened horizon whose core is racist fear-mongering and scape-goating.
That's why I drew the parallel. The STRUCTURE of the discussion they wish to engage in is racist. So it's wrong to engage in it.
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Re: Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?
Unique wrote:of all the immagrants we have had from all races and religions it’s only Muslims we have had problems with. There are no sikhs and hindu rape gangs in England. There are no Jewish hate preachers in England. There are no Chinese no go zones in England. There are no Jamaican terrorist threats in England. The reason I singled them out is because that’s where these problems come from. If the Chinese immigrants start forming child rape gangs and committing terrorist attacks in England then I will call them out as well. But in the history of Chinese immigrants coming to England there has been not one single report of rape gangs or terrorist attacks from them.BarrileteCosmico wrote:Completely unfair to single out "Muslims". Muslims have been going to England and Europe for decades and none of that happened, nor was it a problem.
The ring leader of the grooming gang convicted yesterday is of the sikh faith...
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Re: Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?
RealGunner wrote:Unique wrote:of all the immagrants we have had from all races and religions it’s only Muslims we have had problems with. There are no sikhs and hindu rape gangs in England. There are no Jewish hate preachers in England. There are no Chinese no go zones in England. There are no Jamaican terrorist threats in England. The reason I singled them out is because that’s where these problems come from. If the Chinese immigrants start forming child rape gangs and committing terrorist attacks in England then I will call them out as well. But in the history of Chinese immigrants coming to England there has been not one single report of rape gangs or terrorist attacks from them.BarrileteCosmico wrote:Completely unfair to single out "Muslims". Muslims have been going to England and Europe for decades and none of that happened, nor was it a problem.
The ring leader of the grooming gang convicted yesterday is of the sikh faith...
Hapless_Hans wrote:
You'll always get replies that link to some sort of single incident where Muslims did something appalling, and I've stopped replying to that sort of nonsense.
It's bad faith arguments, non-sequiturs, there's always bull-shit, factual contradictions, irrelevant connections, if not outright fabrications involved in some levels of those 'news items',
There you go..
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Re: Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?
Hapless_Hans wrote:rincon wrote:Hapless_Hans wrote:
No he doesn't, and no, we don't.
He's fallen prey to propaganda. It's race mongering, scapegoating. The 'Muslims' have become the idée fixe of our times similarly to how the 'Jews' were leading up to the 1930s.
Of course the idea of the big bad Muslim coming for you is propaganda bs, but there is still a factor there. He (and other people) may want to keep their culture a certain way which excludes mixing it too deeply with a specific culture. That's pretty much always valid. We all want to live in a place that looks and is a certain way that fits our idea of the ideal neighbourhood.
The reasons for this can be valid, or not.
My point being is that you/we make a huge mistake trying to have reasonable discussions with the Brexit crowd, and the corresponding movements in our respective countries, about stuff like immigration, like you attempted.
Why?
Because they're never going to engage in an argument in good faith. Their positions are not based on reason, but based on fundamentally psychological, irrational operations like scape-goating, projecting, blame-shifting.
You can concede to them stuff about actual, factual problems in connections with the topics they circle around (as if I didn't knew there's sizeable problems connected with immigrant communities, or as if I didn't think conservative Muslims are either total clowns and dangerous bigots), but you're not going to move the discussion further to a commonground of truth or enlightement, as you aim for.
Because they're not operating in good faith, and the sources that inform them are not operating in good faith.
You'll always get replies that link to some sort of single incident where Muslims did something appalling, and I've stopped replying to that sort of nonsense.
It's bad faith arguments, non-sequiturs, there's always bull-shit, factual contradictions, irrelevant connections, if not outright fabrications involved in some levels of those 'news items', and ultimately their main point is conjuring up a broad, more or less diffuse and trans-factual, darkened horizon whose core is racist fear-mongering and scape-goating.
That's why I drew the parallel. The STRUCTURE of the discussion they wish to engage in is racist. So it's wrong to engage in it.
I agree with you when this is the case. I just don't think it is the case with the post I was answering. As different as our views are, I always like to go into these discussions with Unique because he seems to be always honest and direct, and argue in good faith. Not hiding bullshit and open to an actual conversation. On the other hand there is myesyats post above that fits right into what you described. That, I have no interest in replying to, for the exact reasons you wrote.
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Re: Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?
rincon wrote:Hapless_Hans wrote:rincon wrote:
Of course the idea of the big bad Muslim coming for you is propaganda bs, but there is still a factor there. He (and other people) may want to keep their culture a certain way which excludes mixing it too deeply with a specific culture. That's pretty much always valid. We all want to live in a place that looks and is a certain way that fits our idea of the ideal neighbourhood.
The reasons for this can be valid, or not.
My point being is that you/we make a huge mistake trying to have reasonable discussions with the Brexit crowd, and the corresponding movements in our respective countries, about stuff like immigration, like you attempted.
Why?
Because they're never going to engage in an argument in good faith. Their positions are not based on reason, but based on fundamentally psychological, irrational operations like scape-goating, projecting, blame-shifting.
You can concede to them stuff about actual, factual problems in connections with the topics they circle around (as if I didn't knew there's sizeable problems connected with immigrant communities, or as if I didn't think conservative Muslims are either total clowns and dangerous bigots), but you're not going to move the discussion further to a commonground of truth or enlightement, as you aim for.
Because they're not operating in good faith, and the sources that inform them are not operating in good faith.
You'll always get replies that link to some sort of single incident where Muslims did something appalling, and I've stopped replying to that sort of nonsense.
It's bad faith arguments, non-sequiturs, there's always bull-shit, factual contradictions, irrelevant connections, if not outright fabrications involved in some levels of those 'news items', and ultimately their main point is conjuring up a broad, more or less diffuse and trans-factual, darkened horizon whose core is racist fear-mongering and scape-goating.
That's why I drew the parallel. The STRUCTURE of the discussion they wish to engage in is racist. So it's wrong to engage in it.
I agree with you when this is the case. I just don't think it is the case with the post I was answering. As different as our views are, I always like to go into these discussions with Unique because he seems to be always honest and direct, and argue in good faith. Not hiding bullshit and open to an actual conversation. On the other hand there is myesyats post above that fits right into what you described. That, I have no interest in replying to, for the exact reasons you wrote.
I don't mean that Unique, or myescats for that matter, PERSONALLY are not posting in good faith. Even if of course there is a point where ignorance too becomes offensive and biased.
But that's why I use the word structure. This is not about personal shortcomings. Also my use of the word 'racist', I'm not interested in labeling persons with some kind of moral failure tag.
So by all means, it's good that @Unique is direct and says what he thinks. I also don't mean to silence, or censure, anybody.
That's not the point. This kind of discussion has a structure, and I've seen it a thousand times before.
Hapless_Hans- Forum Legend
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Re: Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?
are you telling me there are no muslim rape gangs in england. are you telling me there are no hate preachers in england. are you telling me that a serving british soldier never got his head cut off on the streets of england. are you telling me a bunch of little kids didnt get blown up at a concert. if none of that happend then yes im a victim of propaganda.Hapless_Hans wrote:rincon wrote:Unique you have valid concerns and points about things that are going wrong or cause problems, no doubts. While it may not be 100% correct to say "Muslims", we get your point.
No he doesn't, and no, we don't.
He's fallen prey to propaganda. It's race mongering, scapegoating. The 'Muslims' have become the idée fixe of our times similarly to how the 'Jews' were leading up to the 1930s.
Last edited by Unique on Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?
not that it matters to my overall point but how do you know that.RealGunner wrote:Unique wrote:of all the immagrants we have had from all races and religions it’s only Muslims we have had problems with. There are no sikhs and hindu rape gangs in England. There are no Jewish hate preachers in England. There are no Chinese no go zones in England. There are no Jamaican terrorist threats in England. The reason I singled them out is because that’s where these problems come from. If the Chinese immigrants start forming child rape gangs and committing terrorist attacks in England then I will call them out as well. But in the history of Chinese immigrants coming to England there has been not one single report of rape gangs or terrorist attacks from them.BarrileteCosmico wrote:Completely unfair to single out "Muslims". Muslims have been going to England and Europe for decades and none of that happened, nor was it a problem.
The ring leader of the grooming gang convicted yesterday is of the sikh faith...
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Re: Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?
Unique wrote:are you telling me there are no muslim rape gangs in england. are you telling me there are no hate preachers in england. are you telling me that a serving british soldier never got his head cut off on the streets of england. are you telling me a bunch of little kids didnt get blown up at a concert. if none of that happend then yes im a victim of propaganda.Hapless_Hans wrote:rincon wrote:Unique you have valid concerns and points about things that are going wrong or cause problems, no doubts. While it may not be 100% correct to say "Muslims", we get your point.
No he doesn't, and no, we don't.
He's fallen prey to propaganda. It's race mongering, scapegoating. The 'Muslims' have become the idée fixe of our times similarly to how the 'Jews' were leading up to the 1930s.
All of that happened, and much much more.
But if you argue for Brexit because of the stuff you just wrote, then yes, you are a victim of propaganda. To be precise, both a victim as well as an agent of its proliferation.
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Re: Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?
That was my point^
Brexit has little impact on these issues. It was all propaganda and manipulation.
Brexit has little impact on these issues. It was all propaganda and manipulation.
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Re: Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?
Also, textbook bad faith argument, not engaging with any arguments, just standard right-wing "whataboutism".
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Re: Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?
tbh you are so far left you make ryan giggs look like a right backVivaStPauli wrote:Also, textbook bad faith argument, not engaging with any arguments, just standard right-wing "whataboutism".
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Re: Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?
so your saying all of that happend but i should just ignore itHapless_Hans wrote:Unique wrote:are you telling me there are no muslim rape gangs in england. are you telling me there are no hate preachers in england. are you telling me that a serving british soldier never got his head cut off on the streets of england. are you telling me a bunch of little kids didnt get blown up at a concert. if none of that happend then yes im a victim of propaganda.Hapless_Hans wrote:
No he doesn't, and no, we don't.
He's fallen prey to propaganda. It's race mongering, scapegoating. The 'Muslims' have become the idée fixe of our times similarly to how the 'Jews' were leading up to the 1930s.
All of that happened, and much much more.
But if you argue for Brexit because of the stuff you just wrote, then yes, you are a victim of propaganda. To be precise, both a victim as well as an agent of its proliferation.
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Re: Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?
Unique wrote:so your saying all of that happend but i should just ignore itHapless_Hans wrote:Unique wrote:
are you telling me there are no muslim rape gangs in england. are you telling me there are no hate preachers in england. are you telling me that a serving british soldier never got his head cut off on the streets of england. are you telling me a bunch of little kids didnt get blown up at a concert. if none of that happend then yes im a victim of propaganda.
All of that happened, and much much more.
But if you argue for Brexit because of the stuff you just wrote, then yes, you are a victim of propaganda. To be precise, both a victim as well as an agent of its proliferation.
Pretty sure most of what you describe was done by British citizens, good luck solving that issue with Brexit
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Re: Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?
i think you are missing the points im making. the first point was the problems people are seeing by muslims comming into germany sweden and france from places like syria got people a bit scared then they saw the problems we were having with islam in england already and then panic set in. they thought germany and sweden have just opened the doors to these people and are not only not protecting there own people they are also covering up the crimes. they were thinking as soon as these people are in europe they will be free to come to britain so they wanted out. if governments were not a bunch of pussies that bend over backwards to make them happy and didnt lie and cover up the crimes they comit we would never have got this far in the first place.Hapless_Hans wrote:Unique wrote:so your saying all of that happend but i should just ignore itHapless_Hans wrote:
All of that happened, and much much more.
But if you argue for Brexit because of the stuff you just wrote, then yes, you are a victim of propaganda. To be precise, both a victim as well as an agent of its proliferation.
Pretty sure most of what you describe was done by British citizens, good luck solving that issue with Brexit
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Re: Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?
Unique wrote:of all the immagrants we have had from all races and religions it’s only Muslims we have had problems with. There are no sikhs and hindu rape gangs in England. There are no Jewish hate preachers in England. There are no Chinese no go zones in England. There are no Jamaican terrorist threats in England. The reason I singled them out is because that’s where these problems come from. If the Chinese immigrants start forming child rape gangs and committing terrorist attacks in England then I will call them out as well. But in the history of Chinese immigrants coming to England there has been not one single report of rape gangs or terrorist attacks from them.BarrileteCosmico wrote:Completely unfair to single out "Muslims". Muslims have been going to England and Europe for decades and none of that happened, nor was it a problem.
Let's look at all the UK terrorist Islamist attacks in the past decade and change (please note there were some white supremacist and Irish ones I have chosen to exclude):
2017 London Bridge: 3 attackers. 1 British-born of Pakistani descent. 2 Moroccan immigrants.
2017 Manchester Arena: 1 attacker. British-born of Libyan descent.
2017 Westminster: 1 attacker. White briton who converted to Islam.
2013 Lee Rigby murder: 2 attackers. British born of Nigerian descent.
2005 London underground. 4 attackers. 3 of Pakistani descent and 1 Jamaican convert to Islam.
So of all the attackers literally none of them would have been prevented entry by Brexit. They were either of Pakistani/North African origin (which the EU has nothing to do about) or they were born in Britain and were radicalized there.
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Re: Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?
and this is exactly my point. people are thinking if british born muslims are being driven to do this kind of thing by religion what are young muslim men coming from war torn countrys capable of doing. and you need only look at how they have settled into germany france and sweden to get your answer.BarrileteCosmico wrote:Unique wrote:of all the immagrants we have had from all races and religions it’s only Muslims we have had problems with. There are no sikhs and hindu rape gangs in England. There are no Jewish hate preachers in England. There are no Chinese no go zones in England. There are no Jamaican terrorist threats in England. The reason I singled them out is because that’s where these problems come from. If the Chinese immigrants start forming child rape gangs and committing terrorist attacks in England then I will call them out as well. But in the history of Chinese immigrants coming to England there has been not one single report of rape gangs or terrorist attacks from them.BarrileteCosmico wrote:Completely unfair to single out "Muslims". Muslims have been going to England and Europe for decades and none of that happened, nor was it a problem.
Let's look at all the UK terrorist Islamist attacks in the past decade and change (please note there were some white supremacist and Irish ones I have chosen to exclude):
2017 London Bridge: 3 attackers. 1 British-born of Pakistani descent. 2 Moroccan immigrants.
2017 Manchester Arena: 1 attacker. British-born of Libyan descent.
2017 Westminster: 1 attacker. White briton who converted to Islam.
2013 Lee Rigby murder: 2 attackers. British born of Nigerian descent.
2005 London underground. 4 attackers. 3 of Pakistani descent and 1 Jamaican convert to Islam.
So of all the attackers literally none of them would have been prevented entry by Brexit. They were either of Pakistani/North African origin (which the EU has nothing to do about) or they were born in Britain and were radicalized there.
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Re: Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?
Unique wrote:tbh you are so far left you make ryan giggs look like a right backVivaStPauli wrote:Also, textbook bad faith argument, not engaging with any arguments, just standard right-wing "whataboutism".
Kudos.
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The picture is just showing the idyllic surface though. In truth, one careless step onto the road and you're run over by a Porsche.
I was in Heidelberg for my cousin's wedding and the night before it was a Germany NT game, 2012 quarter vs Greece, and we went outside the hotel into the city afterwards where loads of people were celebrating but you could not buy a beer to take out and drink on the street anywhere after 10pm! CREEPING SHARIAH!
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Re: Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?
reverse propaganda right thereHapless_Hans wrote:
The picture is just showing the idyllic surface though. In truth, one careless step onto the road and you're run over by a Porsche.
I was in Heidelberg for my cousin's wedding and the night before it was a Germany NT game, 2012 quarter vs Greece, and we went outside the hotel into the city afterwards where loads of people were celebrating but you could not buy a beer to take out and drink on the street anywhere after 10pm! CREEPING SHARIAH!
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Re: Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?
Der Spiegel: Britain have become the laughing stock of the world
http://m.spiegel.de/international/europe/brexit-talks-watching-a-country-make-a-fool-of-itself-a-1234143.html
http://m.spiegel.de/international/europe/brexit-talks-watching-a-country-make-a-fool-of-itself-a-1234143.html
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