Pep Guardiola - King of the Carabao Club

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Post by El Gunner Wed May 12, 2021 11:55 pm

@rincon wrote:No one is saying he isn't a top coach. Simply that a table with number of titles without context doesn't say anything. Give any top coach the kind of money and stability Pep has and they will deliver trophies. Simple as that. All coaches are like that, Mou, Carlo, Klopp all won also because they had the resources to do so, Pep just has the most stacked situation.

lol you just sound like a hater
why isn't Mou Carlo or Klopp anywhere close to his total number titles won then?

@Winter you posted a valid list

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Post by Casciavit Thu May 13, 2021 1:37 am

@El Gunner wrote:
@rincon wrote:No one is saying he isn't a top coach. Simply that a table with number of titles without context doesn't say anything. Give any top coach the kind of money and stability Pep has and they will deliver trophies. Simple as that. All coaches are like that, Mou, Carlo, Klopp all won also because they had the resources to do so, Pep just has the most stacked situation.

lol you just sound like a hater
why isn't Mou Carlo or Klopp anywhere close to his total number titles won then?

@Winter you posted a valid list


Honestly just look at the ones hating.

Farfan is a closeted Madrid fan who only posts when anything Cruyff related gets an L.

Rincon won't give Pep his due until he does it in Serie A. I remember arguing with him in 2016 that Pep > Mourinho and he said that wasn't the case because Mourinho had more varied achievements. 5 years have passed with Mourinho leaving 3 different teams in a shithole while Pep has won 3 PL's, an English quadruple, and is in his third CL final. Yet here he is still trying to prop up Mourinho. I thought he was a catenaccio fanboy, but he got excited when Sarri and Pirlo joined Juve so it's definitely just a case of Pep not being Italian/doing it in Serie A. He goes hiding whenever Conte has his annual group stage CL exit, but is the first to trash Pep when he gets knocked out in the CL.

Like I said certain guys here clearly have an agenda against him and it doesn't matter even if he won the PL with a midtable team like Everton, you'd still have someone like Farfan say "Ranieri did it with Leicester though."
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Post by Casciavit Thu May 13, 2021 1:42 am

@danyjr wrote:Pretty much what @rincon said. Nobody said he is a bad manager. In fact he is one of the best coaches around, but he isn't worth getting wet over like his número uno fangirls do here.

In fact he is a coach that cannot succeed without money. And that is very important. Someone like Pochettino, Ancelotti etc. get decent results with shit players as they apply reasonable tactical choices to the players they have at their disposal, whereas Guardiola would try to make them play tiki-taka-esque and fail miserably.


Which shit players has Ancelotti had overperforming? Everton are 9th which isn't any different to their usual league position. He's having a midtable side performing like a midtable side.
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Post by Casciavit Thu May 13, 2021 1:47 am

@FennecFox7 wrote:He is a great manager though. The way he’s improved Mahrez, reintroduced de bruyne as a false 9 to compensate for NO CF, being midtable but eventually winning the title. Zidane had lots of money and signed two overpriced flops. Lampard had a huge budget and bottled it.


Nah there's nothing impressive about that. Don't you know his tactics, what his players say about him, what other coaches say about him, and his trophies which are mostly league cups don't matter? All that matters is his spending. No one else spends but him. All the other top 5 PL teams struggle to make ends meet. His wins are par the course, you know? Anyone suggesting differently about Fraudiola is a fanboy.
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Post by rincon Thu May 13, 2021 9:03 am

@Casciavit wrote:
@El Gunner wrote:
@rincon wrote:No one is saying he isn't a top coach. Simply that a table with number of titles without context doesn't say anything. Give any top coach the kind of money and stability Pep has and they will deliver trophies. Simple as that. All coaches are like that, Mou, Carlo, Klopp all won also because they had the resources to do so, Pep just has the most stacked situation.

lol you just sound like a hater
why isn't Mou Carlo or Klopp anywhere close to his total number titles won then?

@Winter you posted a valid list


Honestly just look at the ones hating.

Farfan is a closeted Madrid fan who only posts when anything Cruyff related gets an L.

Rincon won't give Pep his due until he does it in Serie A. I remember arguing with him in 2016 that Pep > Mourinho and he said that wasn't the case because Mourinho had more varied achievements. 5 years have passed with Mourinho leaving 3 different teams in a shithole while Pep has won 3 PL's, an English quadruple, and is in his third CL final. Yet here he is still trying to prop up Mourinho. I thought he was a catenaccio fanboy, but he got excited when Sarri and Pirlo joined Juve so it's definitely just a case of Pep not being Italian/doing it in Serie A. He goes hiding whenever Conte has his annual group stage CL exit, but is the first to trash Pep when he gets knocked out in the CL.

Like I said certain guys here clearly have an agenda against him and it doesn't matter even if he won the PL with a midtable team like Everton, you'd still have someone like Farfan say "Ranieri did it with Leicester though."

All this post does is show your bias.

Pepophiles are incredibly intense. He must be unquestionably rated as the best ever by everyone or we all get some philosophy lectures and get called haters, catenaccio fanboys, Mou lovers, etc.

This just from saying that he is a top coach but that the table required context Laughing

Mourinho is a clown I don't like at all, should be obvious by my posts in the Roma threads or whenever some here asks about him and Juve. That he is toxic and past it doesn't mean he didn't have an amazing coaching career.

Knowing that both Mou and Pep are/have been great shouldn't be controversial. Its like Ronaldo and Messi conversations. One or the other is a false dichotomy. I loved Allegri at Juve but I also want Gasperini, and I have enough posts about Sassuolo who is coached by a Pep fan.

Football philosophers with strawman arguments.

I remember at the start of this season having to argue that Pep hasn't forgotten how to coach and that he would win the PL, IIRC it was Hans argue for it as well. And yet you were the one writing Pep off.
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Post by The Demon of Carthage Thu May 13, 2021 12:04 pm

The thing is, if Pep hadn't reached the CL final this season, this discussion wouldn't have taken place. And it's important to put things in context and remember why he had failed to do so for an entire decade.

The fact of the matter is, when Madrid and Barça were in their prime, Pep couldn't compete with them despite the fact that he had stacked teams wherever he went. Not only that, he also managed to get knocked out by teams that he absolutely had no excuse losing to.

It's only when everybody else regressed considerably that he was able to crawl back into CL relevancy after 10 years.

It's also important not to compare him to SAF or any other legendary manager that didn't win more than two CLs in their entire career because, again, the context is different. From 2010 onward, football changed with all the massive cash coming in, and talent concentration grew to a point where the best players in the world were only scattered among three-four teams tops (one of which was Pep's). This resulted in all those teams having almost a free pass every single season to reach at least the CL semi-final. Before 2010, and aside from Florentino's Madrid, everybody else spent their cash sensibly and had to, for the most part, build their teams from the ground up, which sometimes took years to complete. If SAF had the kind of cash and stacked teams that Pep has had, there's a fair chance he might've won at least one more CL during his 26-year-long spell at United.

I think Pep is an amazing manager, especially in the league. But as far as CL goes, you can't expect people to give him a standing ovation for winning it after 10 years, after managing some of the most stacked teams of the last decade, and after the usual CL heavyweights regressed to a point of no return.
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Post by Warrior Thu May 13, 2021 12:53 pm

Truth sounds like hate to those who hate to hear the truth

Since Pep left Barca his career is easy peasy, he outspends everybody, 50 millions here, 60 millions there. Zero questions asked and zero CL titles in a decade. His trophy case is overrated, his results are in fact disappointing compared to expectations.

He may have done better than Lampard 2 years of experience but i think it's a wild take to place Pep above a guy like Ancelotti for example. Especially with titles won as main argument.
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Post by Nivash Thu May 13, 2021 1:05 pm

@Myesyats wrote:He would have probably won CL with Bayern in 2015 if it wasnt for MSN. A lot of that is just down to luck and he was very unlucky to encounter that trio in their prime.


Wouldn't the same apply to having prime Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Dani Alves, David Villa, Mascherano, Yaya Toure and even, to an extent, Henry and Eto'o in various iterations of his most successful era?

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Post by danyjr Thu May 13, 2021 2:50 pm

@Casciavit wrote:
@danyjr wrote:Pretty much what @rincon said. Nobody said he is a bad manager. In fact he is one of the best coaches around, but he isn't worth getting wet over like his número uno fangirls do here.

In fact he is a coach that cannot succeed without money. And that is very important. Someone like Pochettino, Ancelotti etc. get decent results with shit players as they apply reasonable tactical choices to the players they have at their disposal, whereas Guardiola would try to make them play tiki-taka-esque and fail miserably.


Which shit players has Ancelotti had overperforming? Everton are 9th which isn't any different to their usual league position. He's having a midtable side performing like a midtable side.
You think Pep would do better at Everton? The guy who managed 3rd spot in his first season with the most stacked team in EPL? I think not. What about Pochettino? The City v PSG argument is invalid as Pochettino has been at the club full of divas for 4 months, not 5 years with half a billion spent on an already stacked team.

Also the fact that he gets far more time than any other coach in the world should be taken into account when assessing his success. Not only he has outspent every coach in the world in the past 10 years, he also has been
given the time to experiment and fail with no consequences. He signed 3 players this season for €150 million during a fucking pandemic only to play one of them. Torres and Aké have seen more bench time than my granddad who goes to the park every morning to "exercise".

Granted, he has matured this season after his continuous failures due to his stubbornness. Something I didn't see coming and neither did most of us. And just because I hate him as a ingenuine person doesn't mean I don't appreciate his qualities. He is in my top 5 list of coaches.
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Post by Casciavit Thu May 13, 2021 3:20 pm

@The Demon of Carthage wrote:The thing is, if Pep hadn't reached the CL final this season, this discussion wouldn't have taken place. And it's important to put things in context and remember why he had failed to do so for an entire decade.

The fact of the matter is, when Madrid and Barça were in their prime, Pep couldn't compete with them despite the fact that he had stacked teams wherever he went. Not only that, he also managed to get knocked out by teams that he absolutely had no excuse losing to.

It's only when everybody else regressed considerably that he was able to crawl back into CL relevancy after 10 years.

It's also important not to compare him to SAF or any other legendary manager that didn't win more than two CLs in their entire career because, again, the context is different. From 2010 onward, football changed with all the massive cash coming in, and talent concentration grew to a point where the best players in the world were only scattered among three-four teams tops (one of which was Pep's). This resulted in all those teams having almost a free pass every single season to reach at least the CL semi-final. Before 2010, and aside from Florentino's Madrid, everybody else spent their cash sensibly and had to, for the most part, build their teams from the ground up, which sometimes took years to complete. If SAF had the kind of cash and stacked teams that Pep has had, there's a fair chance he might've won at least one more CL during his 26-year-long spell at United.

I think Pep is an amazing manager, especially in the league. But as far as CL goes, you can't expect people to give him a standing ovation for winning it after 10 years, after managing some of the most stacked teams of the last decade, and after the usual CL heavyweights regressed to a point of no return.


Yes because Fergie wasn't breaking PL transfer records to bring in Ferdinand, Veron and co.

This rewriting of history regarding Ferguson is quite amusing. He was considered a European disappointment until 2008-2011 when he made 3 finals in 4 years at the end of his coaching career. Even then he's only won twice despite coaching a top team with top players for 26 years.

Pep couldn't beat prime MSN or prime BBC. But then who did? Barca and Real won the CL every year from 2014 to 2018.

How are you going to dismiss him for something that others couldn't do as well then completely ignore his domestic record despite competing against the best coaches in the world then?
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Post by El Gunner Thu May 13, 2021 3:35 pm

@Warrior wrote:Truth sounds like hate to those who hate to hear the truth

Since Pep left Barca his career is easy peasy, he outspends everybody, 50 millions here, 60 millions there. Zero questions asked and zero CL titles in a decade. His trophy case is overrated, his results are in fact disappointing compared to expectations.

He may have done better than Lampard 2 years of experience but i think it's a wild take to place Pep above a guy like Ancelotti for example. Especially with titles won as main argument.

so what about his style of play that has remained so attractive in an age where football has become SHIT to watch? The way he improves players by focusing on fine nuances of the game? The way he tactically analysis his players skillsets and gets the best out of them... or gets a footballing aspect out of them that none of us even saw coming? What about his record points haul year-after-year in the GOAT league?

Are all of these VALID ACCOMPLISHMENTS cancelled out just because he went to the biggest teams with the biggest pockets in an age of pro-football where that is the name of the game? Pls... that, sir, that is the truth... and you just sound like another hater if you argue against that.

The CL is and will always be a competition that holds the element of randomness and surprise every now and then. I think it was Cas who made that thread of what goes into a successful CL winning team... Pep's Barca and Madrid's three-peat team were the epitome of complete CL teams in today's age of football. And we all here have come to an agreement at least that it is true that Pep sometimes shoots himself in the foot with his overtinkering in CL knockout ties since his last CL victory. That is one of his shortcomings, we can agree. But can we agree that doesn't have to mean we have to take away from his list of great and valid accomplishments...?
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Post by Casciavit Thu May 13, 2021 3:42 pm

@Warrior wrote:Truth sounds like hate to those who hate to hear the truth

Since Pep left Barca his career is easy peasy, he outspends everybody, 50 millions here, 60 millions there. Zero questions asked and zero CL titles in a decade. His trophy case is overrated, his results are in fact disappointing compared to expectations.

He may have done better than Lampard 2 years of experience but i think it's a wild take to place Pep above a guy like Ancelotti for example. Especially with titles won as main argument.


First off, Pep did not spend that much at Barca or Bayern. It was only at City where he wanted to spend because when he joined half his team was over 30 years old and a transition period was starting.

You make it sound like he's signing Messi or Ronaldo every window. He signs a bunch of 20 year olds who need time to adapt and develop. The only big signings who Pep ever made who you could argue were in their peak were Gundogan, Walker and Mahrez.

The rest were FM kids. Pep is better than Ancelotti. Ancelotti has flopped in his last two teams and is coaching Everton. This guy could barely win leagues when he had the best teams in the league and he received the most embarrassing comeback in CL history until Valverde and Emery changed that. Even his CL victories involved him winning on penalties and a last minute Ramos header. Hardly strokes of managerial genius but rather fortune. I can assure you if Ancelotti had coached City they wouldn't have have won 3 PL's in 5 years competing against Klopp, Conte, Pochettino, Mourinho, Wenger, Tuchel, and Sarri.

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Post by farfan Thu May 13, 2021 3:49 pm

@Casciavit wrote:
@The Demon of Carthage wrote:The thing is, if Pep hadn't reached the CL final this season, this discussion wouldn't have taken place. And it's important to put things in context and remember why he had failed to do so for an entire decade.

The fact of the matter is, when Madrid and Barça were in their prime, Pep couldn't compete with them despite the fact that he had stacked teams wherever he went. Not only that, he also managed to get knocked out by teams that he absolutely had no excuse losing to.

It's only when everybody else regressed considerably that he was able to crawl back into CL relevancy after 10 years.

It's also important not to compare him to SAF or any other legendary manager that didn't win more than two CLs in their entire career because, again, the context is different. From 2010 onward, football changed with all the massive cash coming in, and talent concentration grew to a point where the best players in the world were only scattered among three-four teams tops (one of which was Pep's). This resulted in all those teams having almost a free pass every single season to reach at least the CL semi-final. Before 2010, and aside from Florentino's Madrid, everybody else spent their cash sensibly and had to, for the most part, build their teams from the ground up, which sometimes took years to complete. If SAF had the kind of cash and stacked teams that Pep has had, there's a fair chance he might've won at least one more CL during his 26-year-long spell at United.

I think Pep is an amazing manager, especially in the league. But as far as CL goes, you can't expect people to give him a standing ovation for winning it after 10 years, after managing some of the most stacked teams of the last decade, and after the usual CL heavyweights regressed to a point of no return.

Yes because Fergie wasn't breaking PL transfer records to bring in Ferdinand, Veron and co.


You skipped like 13 years of Fergie's career to get to that point. Fergie wasn't breaking any transfer records when he was dragging Manchester back into contention after decades of irrelevance. Manchester's financial might was in large part built on Fergie's early successes.

Contrast that with Guardiola who got parachuted into an EPL winning team backed by a sovereign wealth fund Laughing
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Post by Casciavit Thu May 13, 2021 4:05 pm

@danyjr wrote:
@Casciavit wrote:
@danyjr wrote:Pretty much what @rincon said. Nobody said he is a bad manager. In fact he is one of the best coaches around, but he isn't worth getting wet over like his número uno fangirls do here.

In fact he is a coach that cannot succeed without money. And that is very important. Someone like Pochettino, Ancelotti etc. get decent results with shit players as they apply reasonable tactical choices to the players they have at their disposal, whereas Guardiola would try to make them play tiki-taka-esque and fail miserably.


Which shit players has Ancelotti had overperforming? Everton are 9th which isn't any different to their usual league position. He's having a midtable side performing like a midtable side.
You think Pep would do better at Everton? The guy who managed 3rd spot in his first season with the most stacked team in EPL? I think not. What about Pochettino? The City v PSG argument is invalid as Pochettino has been at the club full of divas for 4 months, not 5 years with half a billion spent on an already stacked team.

Also the fact that he gets far more time than any other coach in the world should be taken into account when assessing his success. Not only he has outspent every coach in the world in the past 10 years, he also has been
given the time to experiment and fail with no consequences. He signed 3 players this season for €150 million during a fucking pandemic only to play one of them. Torres and Aké have seen more bench time than my granddad who goes to the park every morning to "exercise".

Granted, he has matured this season after his continuous failures due to his stubbornness. Something I didn't see coming and neither did most of us. And just because I hate him as a ingenuine person doesn't mean I don't appreciate his qualities. He is in my top 5 list of coaches.


It depends. When he joined City he had a team where 15 players were older than 30 and got embarrassed against Madrid for not running. He made some signings in his first year, but the only ones who really started were Bravo, Stones, and Sané. Bravo was a flop, Stones and Sané were kids, with Stones making a mistake every game and Sané only started in the second half of the season.

I didn't expect City to win the PL title in his first year and I actually had them finishing 3rd if you look at the 16/17 predictions thread. Even then at the end of the season if you look at the advanced stats, City did quite well. They created the most chances and conceded the second least. Goalkeeping and poor finishing let them down.

His second seasons comes and his only starting signings are Ederson and Walker. Delph replaces Kolorov as LB. The front 6 remains the same as last year. He then signs Laporte later.

Guys like Mendy and Gundogan were hit with ACL injuries. So what Pep benefited from was depth. When Aguero went down he had Jesus and when Sané got injured he had Bernardo. What he did in the following seasons was improve the depth to get him two starting lineup worth teams to challenge for all competitions.

My question is why do you think he's been offered the time and money? It's because of his history. At their best nobody plays the ways his team do. It's the hardest football to play when you're attacking small spaces and defending large spaces, but when it works there's nothing like it.

That's why I've never argued against him needing good players because he does. The good players he does sign usually need a season to adapt anyways. However, in relation to how he would do at a smaller team here's how I see it.

I don't think he'd flop, but I don't think he'd overachieve that much either. If worse coaches than him who play somewhat similar in terms of playing on the front foot could overperform with worse teams why wouldn't he be able to? Sarri did it, Sampaoli did it, Jemez did it sometimes, and Bielsa is doing it right now.

If he has a base of technical players to work with I think he can do well over time. The problem though on this forum if you don't do well right away you're a fraud. Yeah Bielsa is doing well at Leeds well because he had two seasons in the Championship to coach his ways. No one has the pressure he does. There's no one else in the world who has this expectation if he doesn't win the CL he's a flop but him. So why should he take a shit team with lower pay to prove a point to haters who will still find an excuse to demean him regardless even if he does well.
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Post by Casciavit Thu May 13, 2021 4:35 pm

@farfan wrote:
@Casciavit wrote:
@The Demon of Carthage wrote:The thing is, if Pep hadn't reached the CL final this season, this discussion wouldn't have taken place. And it's important to put things in context and remember why he had failed to do so for an entire decade.

The fact of the matter is, when Madrid and Barça were in their prime, Pep couldn't compete with them despite the fact that he had stacked teams wherever he went. Not only that, he also managed to get knocked out by teams that he absolutely had no excuse losing to.

It's only when everybody else regressed considerably that he was able to crawl back into CL relevancy after 10 years.

It's also important not to compare him to SAF or any other legendary manager that didn't win more than two CLs in their entire career because, again, the context is different. From 2010 onward, football changed with all the massive cash coming in, and talent concentration grew to a point where the best players in the world were only scattered among three-four teams tops (one of which was Pep's). This resulted in all those teams having almost a free pass every single season to reach at least the CL semi-final. Before 2010, and aside from Florentino's Madrid, everybody else spent their cash sensibly and had to, for the most part, build their teams from the ground up, which sometimes took years to complete. If SAF had the kind of cash and stacked teams that Pep has had, there's a fair chance he might've won at least one more CL during his 26-year-long spell at United.

I think Pep is an amazing manager, especially in the league. But as far as CL goes, you can't expect people to give him a standing ovation for winning it after 10 years, after managing some of the most stacked teams of the last decade, and after the usual CL heavyweights regressed to a point of no return.

Yes because Fergie wasn't breaking PL transfer records to bring in Ferdinand, Veron and co.


You skipped like 13 years of Fergie's career to get to that point. Fergie wasn't breaking any transfer records when he was dragging Manchester back into contention after decades of irrelevance. Manchester's financial might was in large part built on Fergie's early successes.

Contrast that with Guardiola who got parachuted into an EPL winning team backed by a sovereign wealth fund Laughing


In the seasons prior United were finishing 3-4th place in the PL which were UEFA cup finishes. Although Ferguson joined midseason when United were doing poorly, but it took him 6 seasons to win his first PL. From 86-2000 they were the 4th highest spenders in the PL. He broke the world transfer record in 95 to bring Cole in. Hell Pep's biggest signing ever was Rodri for 70M compared to 250M Neymar. No one is saying he doesn't spend but he isn't spending them on galacticos. The money is being spent on depth and kids. The money argument would hold more weight if he was spending them on the best in the world but he doesn't. Most people on this forum don't even rate the players he initially brings in despite their fees. How do you look at City and think this is a team carrying Pep? Their identity is completely attached to his coaching. Look at PSG under Tuchel vs Chelsea under Tuchel. One team looked very individualistic while the other looks very coached. Tuchel's Chelsea looks more like a Tuchel team than PSG ever did.

Ferguson was given time and wasn't exactly a penny pincher before big spending on the likes of Veron and Ferdinand. From the moment he joined to the moment United won their first PL, United was the second highest spenders in the PL. DOC usually makes clueless points if you read through it, and this is just another case. No one is trying to undermine Ferguson's managerial abilities but this notion that he didn't spend is a nice rewriting of history. Laughing
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Post by Casciavit Thu May 13, 2021 5:20 pm

The logic of a hater:

He lost a game? "Fraud"

He lost a title? "Fraud"

Other teams spend millions every summer to compete yet don't win? "Irrelevant"

Wins trophies? "Cuz of the money"

Gets 198 points in two seasons with one making a 10 point comeback on prime Liverpool? "My Nan coulda done that too akh"

Has his teams playing a unique style that influenced modern football? "Irrelevant"

His current and former players claim he's the best coach they've ever worked with? "Irrelevant"

Doesn't win a CL every year despite no coach but Zidane winning it more than once this past decade? "Irrelevant"

Leads the pack in terms of trophies won? "Just league cups bro"

Built arguably the GOAT side? "Carried by Messi chief"

Never been sacked before? "Cuz he's given more time yolo"

Won 16/17 finals? "Pff he had the favorite team going in"

Won CL twice before?  "Bet he can't do it with Porto and refs, Xaviesta tax too"

If he wins CL this year? "Couldn't do it against prime MSN/BBC, in front of fans, needed 5 seasons, money etc"

If he becomes first manager to win the quadruple? "Took him 6 seasons lel"

The fact is the ones who don't like him will continually find ways to discredit his achievements to push their agendas. This is literally the arguments being made. The fanboys defend him against those sort of simpleton arguments. There is no other coach who gets the kind of flack over that kind of stuff the way he does. If City was to miss 5 tap ins in the finals, concede no clear opportunities and lose on penalties they'd say it's his fault. It's impossible to reason with them at this point tbh. I question the vitriol. Is it because of how often his Barca team slapped others around? It's an interesting case study.
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Post by Arquitecto Thu May 13, 2021 5:34 pm

@Casciavit wrote:The logic of a hater:

He lost a game? "Fraud"

He lost a title? "Fraud"

Other teams spend millions every summer to compete yet don't win? "Irrelevant"

Wins trophies? "Cuz of the money"

Gets 198 points in two seasons with one making a 10 point comeback on prime Liverpool? "My Nan coulda done that too akh"

Has his teams playing a unique style that influenced modern football? "Irrelevant"

His current and former players claim he's the best coach they've ever worked with? "Irrelevant"

Doesn't win a CL every year despite no coach but Zidane winning it more than once this past decade? "Irrelevant"

Leads the pack in terms of trophies won? "Just league cups bro"

Built arguably the GOAT side? "Carried by Messi chief"

Never been sacked before? "Cuz he's given more time yolo"

Won 16/17 finals? "Pff he had the favorite team going in"

Won CL twice before?  "Bet he can't do it with Porto and refs, Xaviesta tax too"

If he wins CL this year? "Couldn't do it against prime MSN/BBC, in front of fans, needed 5 seasons, money etc"

If he becomes first manager to win the quadruple? "Took him 6 seasons lel"

The fact is the ones who don't like him will continually find ways to discredit his achievements to push their agendas. This is literally the arguments being made. The fanboys defend him against those sort of simpleton arguments. There is no other coach who gets the kind of flack over that kind of stuff the way he does. If City was to miss 5 tap ins in the finals, concede no clear opportunities and lose on penalties they'd say it's his fault. It's impossible to reason with them at this point tbh. I question the vitriol. Is it because of how often his Barca team slapped others around? It's an interesting case study.



No it aint, quite simply because that is the sole and unmentioned reason why he is disliked so heavily here.

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Post by Casciavit Thu May 13, 2021 5:41 pm

Well maybe that's it. When your team slaps others 5-0, not letting them touch the ball, wins sextuples, trebles, 2 CL's in 3 years, dominates finals, and the media starts hyping you as the GOAT team those who were on the receiving end of that won't like you. Hence they'll try to discredit any accomplishment you made and will make in the near future.
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Post by The Demon of Carthage Thu May 13, 2021 5:52 pm

Cas, you really need to grow up and stop labeling everybody a hater just because they don't agree with you. And please stop bringing up the SAF comparison because it's completely ridiculous.

A hater would never say Pep is a very good coach. I literally said I think he's an amazing coach. What more should I say? Drop to my knees and give him head?!

Seriously, he's a very good coach, but he's lacking in certain departments, and that's a fact whether you like it or not. You don't disappear from the CL Winners list for a decade despite spending millions and you expect people not to highlight that fact when he finally comes up after the competition regressed.

He inherited treble-winning Heyneckes' Bayern and he did jack shit with them in the CL. He had a strong enough squad to go toe-to-toe with Ancelotti, yet he bent over backwards and got roflstomped 5-0 on agg. And you have the nerve to ask what he could've done against them? Then he lost to Barça, and then to Atlético, then to Monaco, then to Liverpool, then to Spurs, then to Lyon. I guess he couldn't have done anything against those as well? hein?

And now after everybody has terribly regressed, he finally makes it to the final and we're supposed to give him a standing ovation? Sorry not doing that.

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Post by Casciavit Thu May 13, 2021 6:04 pm

Why is it ridiculous? Because I proved your SAF didn't spend money point wrong? No one is saying SAF spent more than Pep, but there's no elite manager who didn't spend with big teams even if Pep spent more than they did.

You bring up him missing CL finals for a decade yet you don't bring up that no other coach made it to the finals more than once this past decade than Zidane and Klopp. You said he couldn't beat prime MSN and BBC yet no one was able to from 2014-2018 when they were formed. Messi has only been in one CL finals since Pep left. The fact is a knockout competitions involve lots of variance and there's a reason only two managers have won the competition more than twice. Of course he's made questionable decisions over the years but again no one has the expectation of CL or bust like he does.

You claim he's taking advantage of the poor competition but did you say the same stuff when Klopp won in 2019 and Flick won in 2020? Madrid and Barca began regressing then and Bayern won in a one leg format after a 2 month mid season break. In fact your entire argument is stupid because it's somewhat a testament to his quality that he was one of the few managers who were able to maintain his teams performance while the others have largely all struggled this season. Hell I'm a big fan of his and I thought City would implode and even though they struggled at the start they proved me wrong and more!

The problem isn't with the criticism about him it's about the arguments you guys use to back them up. No manager is perfect and Guardiola obviously has his faults but when you make shit up and look at stuff without context you'll be called out for it.
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Post by The Demon of Carthage Thu May 13, 2021 7:42 pm

Alright, let's play.
Why is it ridiculous? Because I proved your SAF didn't spend money point wrong?
Except I didn't make that point, ever? I never said SAF "didn't spend money". He stayed at United for 26 seasons, of course he's going to spend. What I said was, SAF didn't have the kind of cash and stacked teams that Pep has enjoyed whenever he went.

Let me further illustrate my point with concrete examples. In his 26-year-long stay at United, SAF spent around €700m (that's an average of €27m per season) in transfer fees. His most expensive signing was Berbatov (€31m). He never had the luxury of spending north of €300m in a single window, and a big part of his success was thanks to the class of 92. Does this mean he spent money? Of course, but is it as much as Pep? Not even close.

Pep has spent over 1.307 billion euros (not counting last season) in transfer fees since 2008 (which is an average of over €100m per season) and still counting. So what does this mean? Well, It means that even though SAF didn't shy away from spending, he never had the financial muscle that Pep has always enjoyed, especially at City. Which is why I said that if he had had that sort of cash, a manager of his legendary status might have won more than just two CLs in 26 years.

I also believe that football, especially the CL, was way more competitive and difficult to win back then because there was no talent concentration and most teams of the top five leagues had their fair share of amazing players. However, I can't use this as an argument because it's only my impression.

You bring up him missing CL finals for a decade yet you don't bring up that no other coach made it to the finals more than once this past decade than Zidane and Klopp.
You're forgetting Allegri and Simeone.
You said he couldn't beat prime MSN and BBC yet no one was able to from 2014-2018 when they were formed.
Except Juventus beat Madrid in 2015 and Atlético beat Barca in 2016.
Messi has only been in one CL finals since Pep left.
And Pep has been in zero CL final without Messi.
The fact is a knockout competitions involve lots of variance and there's a reason only two managers have won the competition more than twice.
Of course there are many factors, but there are things that are simply inexcusable. When you lose to an underdog (nevermind the heavyweights that Pep had developed a habit of bending over to the last decade), you can't bring up the factors as an excuse. Pep underachieved with the squad he had and the resources he had. Point blank.
Of course he's made questionable decisions over the years but again no one has the expectation of CL or bust like he does.

What CL-or-bust expectation? The guy didn't set foot in a CL final for a decade. Clearly, he's been doing more busting than anything else. We're not saying he should win it every year. We're simply saying that not reaching the CL final for a decade and not winning it after spending a small country GDP is simply inexcusable.

You claim he's taking advantage of the poor competition but did you say the same stuff when Klopp won in 2019 and Flick won in 2020?

It's amazing that you brought up those two because it took them both less time and less money to not only reach the CL final but also win it. Your argument is completely nonsensical, except maybe to further prove the underachievement of Pep in Europe.

Madrid and Barca began regressing then and Bayern won in a one leg format after a 2 month mid season break.
City did also compete in that competition. Why didn't Pep win if it was so easy? Wait, I know, he was busy getting knocked out by Lyon.

In fact your entire argument is stupid because it's somewhat a testament to his quality that he was one of the few managers who were able to maintain his teams performance while the others have largely all struggled this season.

Again, did I say he was a bad manager or that he shouldn't take credit for his team's performance? No. All I said was, he's been underachieving in Europe this last decade all things considered and that's a fact.

Hell I'm a big fan of his and I thought City would implode and even though they struggled at the start they proved me wrong and more!
Good for you.

The problem isn't with the criticism about him it's about the arguments you guys use to back them up. No manager is perfect and Guardiola obviously has his faults but when you make shit up and look at stuff without context you'll be called out for it.
No, the problem is clearly with the criticism of Pep. You don't like it. You don't accept it, and you label whoever dares to give an honest, respectful take on him a hater.

So go ahead, call me one. But the day I start blindly kissing the ass of a manager who was practically irrelevant in Europe's biggest competition for a decade just because he managed to reach finally during a pandemic and after everybody else regressed badly, is the day I quit football.

#BaldFraud.
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Post by Casciavit Thu May 13, 2021 7:48 pm

You clearly have no concept of inflation let alone football inflation if you're using those numbers to compare against present day numbers. Hence why I brought up his spending relative to other teams in the league at the time. I assume Pep would have the greater numbers but nice going trying to illustrate them like that. Laughing

I'll reply to the rest later.
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Post by El Gunner Thu May 13, 2021 8:24 pm

DoC if you go out of your way to bring up dumb, irrelevant points to make your argument then clearly you have an agenda, and that makes you a hater Very Happy

you can simply say, "yea he's one of the best coaches of all-time, but not making a CL final in the entire 2010s since 2010 is a little stain on his illustrious career" and we'd all understand you and leave it at that.
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Post by Myesyats Thu May 13, 2021 11:55 pm

@Nivash wrote:
@Myesyats wrote:He would have probably won CL with Bayern in 2015 if it wasnt for MSN. A lot of that is just down to luck and he was very unlucky to encounter that trio in their prime.


Wouldn't the same apply to having prime Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Dani Alves, David Villa, Mascherano, Yaya Toure and even, to an extent, Henry and Eto'o in various iterations of his most successful era?

Right

I agree. He is a fraud
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Post by Myesyats Thu May 13, 2021 11:59 pm

@The Demon of Carthage wrote:Alright, let's play.
Why is it ridiculous? Because I proved your SAF didn't spend money point wrong?
Except I didn't make that point, ever? I never said SAF "didn't spend money". He stayed at United for 26 seasons, of course he's going to spend. What I said was, SAF didn't have the kind of cash and stacked teams that Pep has enjoyed whenever he went.

Let me further illustrate my point with concrete examples. In his 26-year-long stay at United, SAF spent around €700m (that's an average of €27m per season) in transfer fees. His most expensive signing was Berbatov (€31m). He never had the luxury of spending north of €300m in a single window, and a big part of his success was thanks to the class of 92. Does this mean he spent money? Of course, but is it as much as Pep? Not even close.

Pep has spent over 1.307 billion euros (not counting last season) in transfer fees since 2008 (which is an average of over €100m per season) and still counting. So what does this mean? Well, It means that even though SAF didn't shy away from spending, he never had the financial muscle that Pep has always enjoyed, especially at City. Which is why I said that if he had had that sort of cash, a manager of his legendary status might have won more than just two CLs in 26 years.

Too much reading for a midnight hour but that does seem like an unfair comparison considering market inflation skyrocketed in recent years so you can't compare these price tags 1 to 1.
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Post by Winter is Coming Fri May 14, 2021 12:01 am

@The Demon of Carthage wrote:Cas, you really need to grow up and stop labeling everybody a hater just because they don't agree with you. And please stop bringing up the SAF comparison because it's completely ridiculous.

A hater would never say Pep is a very good coach. I literally said I think he's an amazing coach. What more should I say? Drop to my knees and give him head?!

Seriously, he's a very good coach, but he's lacking in certain departments, and that's a fact whether you like it or not. You don't disappear from the CL Winners list for a decade despite spending millions and you expect people not to highlight that fact when he finally comes up after the competition regressed.

He inherited treble-winning Heyneckes' Bayern and he did jack shit with them in the CL. He had a strong enough squad to go toe-to-toe with Ancelotti, yet he bent over backwards and got roflstomped 5-0 on agg. And you have the nerve to ask what he could've done against them? Then he lost to Barça, and then to Atlético, then to Monaco, then to Liverpool, then to Spurs, then to Lyon. I guess he couldn't have done anything against those as well? hein?

And now after everybody has terribly regressed, he finally makes it to the final and we're supposed to give him a standing ovation? Sorry not doing that.



You're exactly proving Cas point here. What team in the CL didn't benefit from either luck or other teams regressing?

Barcelona: In Pep era we were up against Wenger banter Aresnal, Yo-Yo Madrid spending 100s of million to get KO'ed by Lyon and Bayern who were called chokers by many people in that era, the only team I hated facing was Chelsea becuase they were are bogey team and we beat them in 09 with a lot of luck on our side. 2015 we faced City (who in one leg missed Kompany and Aguero), PSG who missed Veratti and Ibra, Bayern who were without Robben, Ribery and lewa was playing with a broken jaw, we had Juve in the final without Chellini.

Real Madrid: 2014 you faced a Bayern team who was on the downward at the point in regressing in CL even under Pep, which followed under Ancelotti and Kovac, it followed by us becoming a meme and choke masters, Juve and Atleti who are European chokers and further teams regressed.

Bayern: 2013 they took on Conte Juve just enetering CL, Wenger Arsenal, Barcelona without a manager, and Dortmund that was the start of Klopp decline with them, 2020, they took us on again chokers, Madrid were declining, City were City, and PSG were PSG.

Yet nothing? And you want to try to use it as some way to put * on Pep City CL campaign? This is Cas point goal post are moving insanely here, every CL team has benefited from teams declining, or simply with some luck be it ref decisions, key players missing, hell even this run of City is married by luck, Dortmund being denied a perfectly legal goal, questionable PK, 2 fluke goals against PSG, Mbappe not 100% in the first leg and missing the second leg, and even if they or Chelsea win the final it'll also be to some decision or one of there players having a brain fart moment.

Personally I'm one of the one that admits Pep can screw up CL ties a lot, however I also feel we do at times exggrate his CL exits, in 2012 Messi missed a vital PK which could've sent him to another CL final, 2016 they had Atleti against ropes, missed a lot of chances and Muller missed a PK, Spurs in 2019, Aguero missed a PK and Laporte made 2 defensive blunders which saw Spurs score 2 goals, hell even Llorente goal scored as a hand ball, but the ref didn't call it. This is exactly how KO rounds work, luck, decision, etc. play a role, when Varane made this mistake last year against City generally people online blamed him called him overrated. Laporte does this, Pep overthinks Laughing Even Lyon game Laporte gifted a goal, one of the goals Laporte was also clipped which should've been a foul, but the ref didn't call it and Lyon scored + Sterling missed a sitter, Pep line up was largely at fault here, but they still could've won this game. It's not surprising Pep benched those 3 and City are in a CL final.

No one is saying get up and give the man a round of appluase who gives a fck about that at the end? How about people just learn to quit moving goal post with these discussion?, he's widely regarded as one of the greatest, by many peers, he is one of the most sought after manager despite his CL showing teams, none of his teams wanted to lose him, even Rummenigge said when told him he's leaving he shed some tears, Bayern players all turned on Carlo and Kovac, so clearly Pep does something right or these management/players don't seem to blame him for all these results, as some people here do.

I don't beleive in the greatest manager in the world or history discussion Pep isn't, Fergie isn't, Mou isn't, etc. no such thing every managers has there own strength and weaknesses and they all will work in different situation, while some won't, its really that simple at the end.
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