German Politics

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Post by Babun Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:24 am

@VivaStPauli wrote:
They also don't hold many positions that the average German would regard as 'extreme', mostly they lack support because their leadership has been self-sabotaging for decades.

That's the facade to the outside. Facts:
https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article227224261/20-Linke-Bundestagsabgeordnete-unterstuetzen-Gruppen-im-Visier-des-Verfassungsschutzes.html
Translation: every 3rd die Linke politician (20 out of 60) is monitored by Verfassungsschutz (an organ monitoring extremist activities) because of their connections to the autonom left extremist cells.
Concrete attacks:
https://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/sachsen/leipzig/leipzig-leipzig-land/prozess-lina-linksextremismus-dresden-gericht-100.html
English version:
https://newsrnd.com/life/2021-09-08-trial-against-alleged-left-wing-extremist--lina-e--and-the-neo.By1KTDUzF.html

Obsevation of the Verfassungsschutz (an organ monitoring extremist activities across all spectrums, you could find rightwing, religious and other type of extremist in the report):
https://www.verfassungsschutz.de/SharedDocs/publikationen/DE/2021/verfassungsschutzbericht-2020-fakten-und-tendenzen-kurzzusammenfassung.pdf;jsessionid=8066A7B4B57D3E97DF95DF567A4F1F91.internet542?__blob=publicationFile&v=5

Antifa and other far left groups are also part of die Linke. So yeah, them going out of their way with the positions of Greens or SPD to fish for naive voters doesn't make them less extremist. That way you could argue some of the AFD (the same party with Gauland, Höcke and other Vollspacken from East Germany) concepts are acceptable, it's just that their voter group overlaps with CDU/Union and the FDP Very Happy

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Post by VivaStPauli Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:31 am

@Babun wrote:
@VivaStPauli wrote:
They also don't hold many positions that the average German would regard as 'extreme', mostly they lack support because their leadership has been self-sabotaging for decades.

That's the facade to the outside. Facts:
https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article227224261/20-Linke-Bundestagsabgeordnete-unterstuetzen-Gruppen-im-Visier-des-Verfassungsschutzes.html
Translation: every 3rd die Linke politician (20 out of 60) is monitored by Verfassungsschutz (an organ monitoring extremist activities) because of their connections to the autonom left extremist cells.

The Verfassungsschutz is under heavy criticism for being overtly friendly to far-right extremists while being very bitey towards the left.

Concrete attacks:
https://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/sachsen/leipzig/leipzig-leipzig-land/prozess-lina-linksextremismus-dresden-gericht-100.html
English version:
https://newsrnd.com/life/2021-09-08-trial-against-alleged-left-wing-extremist--lina-e--and-the-neo.By1KTDUzF.html

Those are about left-wing extremists, the party Die Linke isn't even mentioned. By the way the article (German one) even starts out saying that it's the first such trial in 20 years. Not exactly an epidemic.

Obsevation of the Verfassungsschutz (an organ monitoring extremist activities across all spectrums, you could find rightwing, religious and other type of extremist in the report):
https://www.verfassungsschutz.de/SharedDocs/publikationen/DE/2021/verfassungsschutzbericht-2020-fakten-und-tendenzen-kurzzusammenfassung.pdf;jsessionid=8066A7B4B57D3E97DF95DF567A4F1F91.internet542?__blob=publicationFile&v=5

As I said, the Verfassungsschutz has it's problems. It's getting better now that Maaßen is no longer leading it, but they've been broadly accused of overstating left-wing terror and turning a blind eye to right-wing extremism.

Antifa and other far left groups are also part of die Linke.
They are literally not.
They might sympathize with each other, but that sentence is blatantly false, Babun, and either you know better and are misrepresenting facts, or you need to up your political education.

So yeah, them going out of their way with the positions of Greens or SPD to fish for naive voters doesn't make them less extremist.
Having less extreme positions literally makes them less extremist, yes. I just don't see what's so extremist about raising the minimum wage or stopping weapons exports. I get that it might be complicated, but it's hardly radical.

That way you could argue some of the AFD (the same party with Gauland, Höcke and other Vollspacken from East Germany) concepts are acceptable, it's just that their voter group overlaps with CDU/Union and the FDP Very Happy


I legit don't think some of the CDU/Union concepts are acceptable. Their catering to the right wing is what made the AfD seem 'okay' in the eyes of many. Nobody even knows what the FDP wants, least of all the FDP. Though that probably could've also been said about the Union.
The AfD on the other hand has several members who've made several speeches that were subject to hate speech legislation.
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Post by Robespierre Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:27 pm

Does it exsist a site where you can see German election's results based on every city ?

I mean, a site where you can see the results in Berlin , in Bamberg, in Hamburg, in  Karlsruhe etc

Similar to these I mean

https://elezionistorico.interno.gov.it/
https://www.youtrend.it/m/mappa-elettorale/index.html?#/c/2013-02-24/12-58/lazio/roma

I'd be curious
Danke dir
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Post by Hapless_Hans Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:56 pm

The German Verfassungschutz happen to be militant Nazis though, so it's a bit paradoxical
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Post by Babun Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:53 pm

@Robespierre wrote:Does it exsist a site where you can see German election's results based on every city ?

I mean, a site where you can see the results in Berlin , in Bamberg, in Hamburg, in  Karlsruhe etc

Similar to these I mean

https://elezionistorico.interno.gov.it/
https://www.youtrend.it/m/mappa-elettorale/index.html?#/c/2013-02-24/12-58/lazio/roma

I'd be curious
Danke dir

https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/btw21/bundestagswahl-wahlkarte-101.html

Have a look at the minimap of Germany in the middle. You can scroll to zoom in/out. Klick on a region to see how they voted.
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Post by Robespierre Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:30 pm

@Babun wrote:
@Robespierre wrote:Does it exsist a site where you can see German election's results based on every city ?

I mean, a site where you can see the results in Berlin , in Bamberg, in Hamburg, in  Karlsruhe etc

Similar to these I mean

https://elezionistorico.interno.gov.it/
https://www.youtrend.it/m/mappa-elettorale/index.html?#/c/2013-02-24/12-58/lazio/roma

I'd be curious
Danke dir

https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/btw21/bundestagswahl-wahlkarte-101.html

Have a look at the minimap of Germany in the middle. You can scroll to zoom in/out. Klick on a region to see how they voted.


Exactly what I was looking for , danke dir Proud
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Post by Robespierre Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:08 am

German Politics - Page 4 Germani
It's relevant how votes is so divided geographically
I've always known that CSU is strong in South Germany ( Bayern, Franken ) but I didn't image too high percentages for them on that side ..
and then yes, you always hear that AfD is strong in former DDR and it assumes disturbing contours looking at this map
Hamburg is probably the leftist German city ,isn't it ? I remember some controverial for having organized G8 summit in Amburg given the presence of many leftist antagonist movements in that city . SPD won easily  (tbf Scholz is from Hamburg and the "home" candidate has often special consideration)
Interesting results where @VivaStPauli is :
German Politics - Page 4 Heis


Last edited by Robespierre on Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:11 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : w)
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Post by VivaStPauli Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:11 pm

@Robespierre wrote:
I've always known that CSU is strong in South Germany ( Bayern, Franken ) but I didn't image too high percentages for them on that side ..

Used to be proper dictatorship level numbers, but they've dropped in the last few years.

and then yes, you always hear that AfD is strong in former DDR and it assumes disturbing contours looking at this map
It is very depressing, but also important to remember that not that many people live in those blue zones, they might win those districts, but they're very sparsely populated.

Hamburg is probably the leftist German city ,isn't it ? I remember some controverial for having organized G8 summit in Amburg given the presence of many leftist antagonist movements in that city . SPD won easily  (tbf Scholz is from Hamburg and the "home" candidate has often special consideration)
Hamburg is the typical green-red city, well-off center-left people, the real left-wing metropolis still is Berlin, always has been.

Interesting results where @VivaStPauli is :
German Politics - Page 4 Heis


Yeah I helped make that happen. Also tracks with the people I meet. We're a proper Ampel city with some old money holdovers who go for the CDU, sometimes even FDP, but this is a typical Green voter's city: lots of academics, high wages, high real estate prices, the forest is nearby, people usualy don't work manufacturing, but either service industry, or software, the only proper industry here is one cement factory, the rest is printing, software, hospitals and the university.
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Post by futbol Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:09 pm

All big show for the masses. In reality Green, FDP, SPD and CDU are all the same when it comes to the important decisions (transatlantic, pro NATO). They only differ in irrelevant niche points to create the illusion as if they weren't all the same.

Difference between FDP and Green? A green voter is an FDP voter with a bad conscience, to make up for it he wants to pay 2 Euros per 1 liter petrol.

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Post by VivaStPauli Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:18 pm

@futbol wrote:All big show for the masses. In reality Green, FDP, SPD and CDU are all the same when it comes to the important decisions (transatlantic, pro NATO). They only differ in irrelevant niche points to create the illusion as if they weren't all the same.

Difference between FDP and Green? A green voter is an FDP voter with a bad conscience, to make up for it he wants to pay 2 Euros per 1 liter petrol.


That sounds smart because it makes you look like you've realized something other people haven't, but it's not.
They differ a great lot. Tax policy, economic policy - all of this matters. There's lots of movement in domestic politics without toppling capitalism and there's lots of movement in foreign policy without having to leave NATO.
And the SPD might be transatlantic, but they're also pro 'Aussöhnung', for de-escalating relations with Russia.
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Post by Robespierre Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:13 pm

@VivaStPauli wrote:
@Robespierre wrote:
I've always known that CSU is strong in South Germany ( Bayern, Franken ) but I didn't image too high percentages for them on that side ..

Used to be proper dictatorship level numbers, but they've dropped in the last few years.

and then yes, you always hear that AfD is strong in former DDR and it assumes disturbing contours looking at this map
It is very depressing, but also important to remember that not that many people live in those blue zones, they might win those districts, but they're very sparsely populated.

Hamburg is probably the leftist German city ,isn't it ? I remember some controverial for having organized G8 summit in Amburg given the presence of many leftist antagonist movements in that city . SPD won easily  (tbf Scholz is from Hamburg and the "home" candidate has often special consideration)
Hamburg is the typical green-red city, well-off center-left people, the real left-wing metropolis still is Berlin, always has been.

Interesting results where @VivaStPauli is :
German Politics - Page 4 Heis


Yeah I helped make that happen. Also tracks with the people I meet. We're a proper Ampel city with some old money holdovers who go for the CDU, sometimes even FDP, but this is a typical Green voter's city: lots of academics, high wages, high real estate prices, the forest is nearby, people usualy don't work  manufacturing, but either service industry, or software, the only proper industry here is one cement factory, the rest is printing, software, hospitals and the university.


Yes in fact my initial convinction thought about Berlin as  the most leftist city in Germany.
I mean it's a thing that you feel also when you visite it ( not by chance I love Berlin, for the rest it's a city that divides in opinion, some loved it, other were disappointed)
On the other hand even these elections say it. Die Linke collapsed everywhere but it got 15% in Berlin, confirming itself as stronghold

I understand  what you said about Hamburg, it sounds as the equivalent of Milan in Italy , city comparable also as dimension, strategic and economic importance (but no harbour ). Milan was historically a socialist feud, socialist rather than communist, and yes well-off center-left people is the proper definition there . Bologna is closer to Berlin.

I feel that a  red-green adminstration becomes a great scenario in a world that tends ncreasingly towards right, Heidelberg is a perfect place on it and I wish   German to make same
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Post by Babun Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:11 pm

Ampel (traffic lights) is slowly becoming reality.
Interesting side effect of the left fiasco ( Greens and die Linke got a lot less votes than expected), gender language is going to be banned from the official German language soon:
https://www.fehmarn24.de/welt/gendersprache-frauenministerin-lambrecht-will-gender-sternchen-verbieten-zr-91035095.html

The reasoning is very simple and logical: the language becomes less understandable for the broad majourity while the issue applies to a tiny minority.
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Post by sportsczy Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:04 pm

Excuse my ignorance, but what is gender language? Are they saying we can't use qualifiers like "he" and "she" anymore?
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Post by Babun Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:31 pm

@sportsczy wrote:Excuse my ignorance, but what is gender language?  Are they saying we can't use qualifiers like "he" and "she" anymore?

English version:
https://time.com/4327915/gender-neutral-pronouns/

German example for a driver:
male -> der Fahrer
female -> die Fahrerin
male plural "die Fahrer", female plural "die Fahrerinnen"

genderneutral version:
1st Edition: they wanted to show the inclusion star in written version only as "Fahrer*innen", * stands for inclusion of all genders for the genderneutral langauge

2nd Edition: it wasn't enough for them so they introduced ":" separation as "die Fahrer:innen", pronounced as "Fahrer"+pause+"innen" to pronounce the separation extra
(there is also FahrerInnen with the capital i, Fahrer_innen with the underscore and other crap)
We've got analphabets and people who struggle with the proper language anyways and then you throw this BS in the mix. The only logical solution is what the female minister proposed: if you're against male patriarchy use female or neutral plural wher- and whenever possible.
For example, one could make the case for "die Fahrenden", people who drive. There is no gender assigned.
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Post by futbol Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:44 pm

@Babun wrote:

For example, one could make the case for "die Fahrenden", people who drive. There is no gender assigned.


And that would be wrong. "Die Fahrenden" would be people who are, right now, actively driving. When they aren't actively driving anymore, they stop being "Fahrende".

A "Fahrer" on the other hand, like a "Taxifahrer" or "Rennfahrer" remains a "Fahrer" even when he sleeps in his bed at home.

Same way "Studierende" is wrong. A "Studierender" who takes a semester break is not a "Studierender" anymore but still a "Student".

A pedantic and exact language like German can't be remodelled via asteriskes and underscores by virtue of the inferiority complex of a minority.


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Post by Myesyats Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:32 pm

As a slav who learned german for 6 years in school I have to agree these changes sound very idiotic

What I'm wondering is. Why has democracy become minority rule? Laws should be enforced if the majority agrees not the other way round.

To change the language due to 0.3% of people is ridiculous in itself before you start to even consider the changes themselves.

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Post by Babun Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:57 am

@futbol wrote:
@Babun wrote:

For example, one could make the case for "die Fahrenden", people who drive. There is no gender assigned.


And that would be wrong. "Die Fahrenden" would be people who are, right now, actively driving. When they aren't actively driving anymore, they stop being "Fahrende".

A "Fahrer" on the other hand, like a "Taxifahrer" or "Rennfahrer" remains a "Fahrer" even when he sleeps in his bed at home.

Same way "Studierende" is wrong. A "Studierender" who takes a semester break is not a "Studierender" anymore but still a "Student".

A pedantic and exact language like German can't be remodelled via asteriskes and underscores by virtue of the inferiority complex of a minority.


Fully agree and "hoffentlich ist der Spuk bald vorbei!"
I've got another idea for them. If women and insecure minorities are concerned with their rights and the overwhelming patriarchy, how about they teach those women to bring up children who aren't intolerant and rabbid (most kids got those tendencies from their parents). Every man and woman had a mother, most of them passed 90% of their childhood with their mom so the logical thing would be to change mom's mindset. It's easy to blame men for everything when we're regarded as the cannon fodder of the society or complicate an already mostly gender neutral language like English with some kind of abomination..
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