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Post by Robespierre Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:50 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:KOA GIFFEY!

first estimates are too close too call, the Linke also weak and and the verge of not making the 5 percent hurdle into parliament and red-red-green definitively is no majority option as things stand

we need to wait for proper results now, there's the hope the inclusion of mal in votes will mean the result is more left leaning than the estimates

in Berlin, the Greens are close to beating the SPD as the strongest party, that would be pretty fucking awesome, KOA GIFFEY


Could you expect Green victory there ?

Your post proves that you also voted Green I suppose

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Post by Robespierre Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:59 pm

Not by chance Adenauer disliked Berlin.

German Politics - Page 3 Berlin
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Post by Hapless_Hans Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:28 pm

@Robespierre wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:KOA GIFFEY!

first estimates are too close too call, the Linke also weak and and the verge of not making the 5 percent hurdle into parliament and red-red-green definitively is no majority option as things stand

we need to wait for proper results now, there's the hope the inclusion of mal in votes will mean the result is more left leaning than the estimates

in Berlin, the Greens are close to beating the SPD as the strongest party, that would be pretty fucking awesome, KOA GIFFEY


Could you expect Green victory there ?

Your post proves that you also voted Green I suppose


I didn't. I will never forgive the Greens for Fischer, Kretschmann, Kosovo and Afghanistan.

But I obviously prefer them to the SPD, and I would strongly prefer Jarasch over Giffey a Berlin mayor.

I voted for various small parties slightly more to the left of the spectrum.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:31 pm

@Robespierre wrote:Not by chance Adenauer disliked Berlin.

German Politics - Page 3 Berlin


Yeah, Berlin is pretty great. Those 11% "other" are not to the right of the SPD either, to put it midlly Laughing Proud
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Post by Robespierre Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:33 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@Robespierre wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:KOA GIFFEY!

first estimates are too close too call, the Linke also weak and and the verge of not making the 5 percent hurdle into parliament and red-red-green definitively is no majority option as things stand

we need to wait for proper results now, there's the hope the inclusion of mal in votes will mean the result is more left leaning than the estimates

in Berlin, the Greens are close to beating the SPD as the strongest party, that would be pretty fucking awesome, KOA GIFFEY


Could you expect Green victory there ?

Your post proves that you also voted Green I suppose


I didn't. I will never forgive the Greens for Fischer, Kretschmann, Kosovo and Afghanistan.

But I obviously prefer them to the SPD, and I would strongly prefer Jarasch over Giffey a Berlin mayor.

I voted for various small parties slightly more to the left of the spectrum.


You look like me since I can't vote for PD but I rather vote for some small parties more to the left even though they hardly get electoral threshold Laughing
Sad times
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Post by Hapless_Hans Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:54 pm

@Robespierre wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@Robespierre wrote:


Could you expect Green victory there ?

Your post proves that you also voted Green I suppose


I didn't. I will never forgive the Greens for Fischer, Kretschmann, Kosovo and Afghanistan.

But I obviously prefer them to the SPD, and I would strongly prefer Jarasch over Giffey a Berlin mayor.

I voted for various small parties slightly more to the left of the spectrum.


You look like me since I can't vote for PD but I rather vote for some small parties more to the left even though they hardly get electoral threshold Laughing
Sad times


I can't and won't vote for candidates and parties whom I don't trust to represent me and my values adequately. My vote is too important to me to throw it away like that, to reverse the stereotypical image..

My political socialization as a kid was Green, and back then they were pacifists and anti-war activists.
As soon as they came to power, they started bombing Serbia, like it's fucking 1941 again.

I could actually hear the planes flying over my parent's house in Franconia, when I came home early in the morning from partying, they'd started from bases in the Eifel or at the Niederrhein to reach Belgrade in the morning.

Great stuff, thanks a lot, Green party. Joschka Fischer, our Green vice-chancelor and foreign minister, was a horrible, power-obsessed, cynical *bleep*, war criminal, and a fraud of a politician. Hope he croaks soon, now that he became fat again.

Kretschmann is, as you know, actually the first Green Ministerpräsident of a major German federal state - Baden-Württemberg. He's governing there with the CDU and he has cozied up to the car manufacturing industry which has its home in the state - Mercedes, Porsche, the likes. These are the people getting rich by building the products that destroy the planet and that are driven by dictators, mafia bosses, CEOs and other people who themselves destroy the planet by what they're doing.
These are his buddies, he's not doing anything about the climate...
Great stuff again, Greens, the very moment they're actually in positions of power they do the very opposite of their supposed core principles. And they all were fucking MAOIST ACTIVISTS in their student days in the 70s, Jesus fucking Christ, running around with the 'little red book' the Mao bible, and being organized in hardcore communist groups. And now this.. Ministerpräsident.. Aussenminister.. lecturing at Harvard.. having a driver take them in a fat Audi from airport to hotel to boardroom meeting to conference to hotel to airport.. 'sustainability' consultant for BMW and multinational energy corporations. They can fuck right off.
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Post by Robespierre Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:56 pm

@Hapless_Hans

your thoughts on Die Linke ? Did you expect their collapse? Their worst result ever probably

I mean they kept good in Berlin , their stronghold, but they fell at national level

Perhaps the party suffered own internal divisions... Die Linke needs of a deep reconstruction and maybe this defeat will do good to it . Or finally Die Partei takes control on the left
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Post by sportsczy Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:57 pm

So the greens get to pick which one of the two leading party candidates becomes chancellor.

Who do you guys think it will be?
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Post by urbaNRoots Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:17 pm

@Hans you do know that Milosevic tried to genocide and expel the Albanian population and that‘s why the West (incl. the Greens) intervened against Serbia? Or did you want to ignore it and have another Bosnian genocide right in Europe? So much for your „pacifist“ views. If that is your stance then you might as well join up with AfD because that is the rhetoric they use all the time.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:24 pm

There was a population expelled all right but it wasn't the Albanians..
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Post by Hapless_Hans Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:32 pm

@Robespierre wrote:@Hapless_Hans

your thoughts on Die Linke ? Did you expect their collapse? Their worst result ever probably

I mean they kept good in Berlin , their stronghold, but they fell at national level

Perhaps the party suffered own internal divisions... Die Linke needs of  a deep reconstruction and maybe this defeat will do good to it . Or finally Die Partei takes control on the left


1. Yeah that's a big part of it. Wagenknecht/Lafontaine tried to woo xenophopic voters and bitched about "lifestyle left wingers" - meaning those who deal with intersectionality, instead of white old men only minding the "Hauptwiderspruch"...

2. If that happens, I can say I had a hand in it Proud
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Post by urbaNRoots Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:40 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:There was a population expelled all right but it wasn't the Albanians..

:facepalm:

Read some history books and stop listening to your Serb friend/girlfriend or whoever is feeding you this crap.

You are talking to someone who‘s family had to flee Milosevic monstrous regime. If it wasn‘t for Fischer, Blair, Clinton and some other people, I would be in some hidden mass grave in Serbia instead of reading this crap.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:55 pm

@urbaNRoots wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:There was a population expelled all right but it wasn't the Albanians..

:facepalm:

Read some history books and stop listening to your Serb friend/girlfriend or whoever is feeding you this crap.

You are talking to someone who‘s family had to flee Milosevic monstrous regime. If it wasn‘t for Fischer, Blair, Clinton and some other people, I would be in some hidden mass grave in Serbia instead of reading this crap.


Right, I'm against NATO bombardment of Belgrade that's why I must be condoning Milosevic and mass graves..
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Post by Robespierre Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:01 pm

The whole center-left of the time ( yes at that time world didn't turn into right) , from Clinton to Prodi to D'Alema ( in 1999 Italy was led by a centre-left government that wanted and got that NATO intervention with no ONU risolutions etc . and this 'll provoke internal poisons to the left) have responsability for it
I understand  clearly what Hapless_Hans meant about it but I realize it's  burning issue easily misunderstable, so I will simply say that the Operation Alliad Force in Kosovo represents of the biggest debates in the field of Transitional Justice from Rwanda to date.


Last edited by Robespierre on Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by VivaStPauli Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:02 pm

TBH I think the entire Kosovo issue isn't black or white, and there are good points for military intervention.
There's also always good arguments against any military intervention, ever.

That being said. Looking bad for Laschet. That's basically all I wanted. Disappointed with the Die Linke performance. Was hoping for Red-Green-Red, looking like an Ampel. Am not a huge FDP fan, but anything is better than CDU/CSU.
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Post by Babun Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:12 pm

@sportsczy wrote:So the greens get to pick which one of the two leading party candidates becomes chancellor.

Who do you guys think it will be?

There're 3 options for a majourity:
1. SPD and CDU/CSU can build another great coalition with SPD as the leading party this time around.
2. Traffic light coalition (SPD+Greens+FDP)
3. Jamaica coalition (CDU-Greens+FDP)

Neither SPD nor CDU want option n1 but it is a fallback option. Greens prefer option n2, for they've got more in common with SPD. FDP is in favour of the option 3, they prefer CDU/CSU.
Point is Greens and FDP will lead coalition talks to find common ground. However, they shouldn't stick their noses too much far out of the window because SPD and CDU/CSU can build another great coalition. Greens have got more votes than FDP so the sensible coalition should be option n2. I think it's the most likely outcome.
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Post by iftikhar Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:28 pm

@Hapless_Hans

Die Linke is getting exclusively negative treatment from the establishment media, it's a relentless treatment that has never ceded since over 20 years, when it was still the PDS.

Did it help AfD gain and maintain a strong base in the eastern part of Germany?
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Post by Myesyats Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:40 pm

@Babun wrote:
@sportsczy wrote:So the greens get to pick which one of the two leading party candidates becomes chancellor.

Who do you guys think it will be?

There're 3 options for a majourity:
1. SPD and CDU/CSU can build another great coalition with SPD as the leading party this time around.
2. Traffic light coalition (SPD+Greens+FDP)
3. Jamaica coalition (CDU-Greens+FDP)

Neither SPD nor CDU want option n1 but it is a fallback option. Greens prefer option n2, for they've got more in common with SPD. FDP is in favour of the option 3, they prefer CDU/CSU.
Point is Greens and FDP will lead coalition talks to find common ground. However, they shouldn't stick their noses too much far out of the window because SPD and CDU/CSU can build another great coalition. Greens have got more votes than FDP so the sensible coalition should be option n2. I think it's the most likely outcome.

I'd bet on CDU/Greens/FDP

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Post by Hapless_Hans Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:00 am

@Myesyats wrote:
@Babun wrote:
@sportsczy wrote:So the greens get to pick which one of the two leading party candidates becomes chancellor.

Who do you guys think it will be?

There're 3 options for a majourity:
1. SPD and CDU/CSU can build another great coalition with SPD as the leading party this time around.
2. Traffic light coalition (SPD+Greens+FDP)
3. Jamaica coalition (CDU-Greens+FDP)

Neither SPD nor CDU want option n1 but it is a fallback option. Greens prefer option n2, for they've got more in common with SPD. FDP is in favour of the option 3, they prefer CDU/CSU.
Point is Greens and FDP will lead coalition talks to find common ground. However, they shouldn't stick their noses too much far out of the window because SPD and CDU/CSU can build another great coalition. Greens have got more votes than FDP so the sensible coalition should be option n2. I think it's the most likely outcome.

I'd bet on CDU/Greens/FDP


Nah. CDU has lost too badly to be leading the government, it will be Red-Green-Yellow, traffic lights coalition
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Post by Myesyats Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:28 am

That'd be the better option and its what the majority wants I assume. i sincerely hope CDU goes into opposition. Any party w "christian" in their name should be in minority, frankly, in this day and age

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Post by Pedram Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:25 am

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@Myesyats wrote:
@Babun wrote:

There're 3 options for a majourity:
1. SPD and CDU/CSU can build another great coalition with SPD as the leading party this time around.
2. Traffic light coalition (SPD+Greens+FDP)
3. Jamaica coalition (CDU-Greens+FDP)

Neither SPD nor CDU want option n1 but it is a fallback option. Greens prefer option n2, for they've got more in common with SPD. FDP is in favour of the option 3, they prefer CDU/CSU.
Point is Greens and FDP will lead coalition talks to find common ground. However, they shouldn't stick their noses too much far out of the window because SPD and CDU/CSU can build another great coalition. Greens have got more votes than FDP so the sensible coalition should be option n2. I think it's the most likely outcome.

I'd bet on CDU/Greens/FDP


Nah. CDU has lost too badly to be leading the government, it will be Red-Green-Yellow, traffic lights coalition


Would this coalition put Die Linke in opposition? it's a center-left coalition, sure they can find some place for their commie brethrens? eco smile
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Post by Babun Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:00 pm

@Pedram wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@Myesyats wrote:

I'd bet on CDU/Greens/FDP


Nah. CDU has lost too badly to be leading the government, it will be Red-Green-Yellow, traffic lights coalition


Would this coalition put Die Linke in opposition? it's a center-left coalition, sure they can find some place for their commie brethrens? eco smile

Die Linke counts as an extremist party in Germany (I know very popular online on twitter but not in IRL here). SPD, CDU and the Greens categorically distanced themselves from them before the elections took place. No one wants to have any type of coalition talks with them which is also justified by the election itself. They wouldn't have any seats in the parliament (under 5% of all votes), three direct mandates saved them from being nonexistent in the Bundestag.
The voters in GER are old school, can't be bothered with woke politics, gender fights etc. Die Linke was voted for in the past, for they cared for the worker families and the weak. Ironically, the direct mandates come from old school Die Linke politicians who are regarded as "too old school" or "too right" by the life style leftist in Germany nowadays.
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Post by Duronto-Roddur Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:06 am

Aren't they (Die Linke) leading or part of some regional/state governments? Think FDP even tried to stop them from forming a government by supporting AfD.

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Post by Babun Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:14 pm

@Duronto-Roddur wrote:Aren't they (Die Linke) leading or part of some regional/state governments? Think FDP even tried to stop them from forming a government by supporting AfD.

They were tolerated in Thüringen because otherwise AFD would've been indirectly in power. Die Linke was the lesser evil.
In the US, you can't really tell whether a minority or a majourity of a party supports certain elements in it. There're just two parties. The louder ones are heard most. In multi party democracies like Netherlands, Germany oder Italy, you can literally see whether an idea/a movement is supported by the population and to which degree. Die Linke is very popular on Twitter in its base (former east Germany), for its members etc. but looking at the whole republic they don"t have much support.
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Post by VivaStPauli Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:32 pm

I would maybe intersect that Babun's presentation is kind of skewed through him not being a fan of Die Linke.

It is true that they don't have mass appeal throughout the Republic, but they've been in power in Thuringia since 2014, and have been included in several governments in the former East Germany, and will take voters away from the other left-leaning parties every few election cycles, so they're not a fringe phenomenon, they hold popular positions, it is just that they have a lot of overlap with the Greens and the Social Democrats, both of which lack the SED baggage from the GDR times.

They also don't hold many positions that the average German would regard as 'extreme', mostly they lack support because their leadership has been self-sabotaging for decades.
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Post by Babun Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:24 am

@VivaStPauli wrote:
They also don't hold many positions that the average German would regard as 'extreme', mostly they lack support because their leadership has been self-sabotaging for decades.

That's the facade to the outside. Facts:
https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article227224261/20-Linke-Bundestagsabgeordnete-unterstuetzen-Gruppen-im-Visier-des-Verfassungsschutzes.html
Translation: every 3rd die Linke politician (20 out of 60) is monitored by Verfassungsschutz (an organ monitoring extremist activities) because of their connections to the autonom left extremist cells.
Concrete attacks:
https://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/sachsen/leipzig/leipzig-leipzig-land/prozess-lina-linksextremismus-dresden-gericht-100.html
English version:
https://newsrnd.com/life/2021-09-08-trial-against-alleged-left-wing-extremist--lina-e--and-the-neo.By1KTDUzF.html

Obsevation of the Verfassungsschutz (an organ monitoring extremist activities across all spectrums, you could find rightwing, religious and other type of extremist in the report):
https://www.verfassungsschutz.de/SharedDocs/publikationen/DE/2021/verfassungsschutzbericht-2020-fakten-und-tendenzen-kurzzusammenfassung.pdf;jsessionid=8066A7B4B57D3E97DF95DF567A4F1F91.internet542?__blob=publicationFile&v=5

Antifa and other far left groups are also part of die Linke. So yeah, them going out of their way with the positions of Greens or SPD to fish for naive voters doesn't make them less extremist. That way you could argue some of the AFD (the same party with Gauland, Höcke and other Vollspacken from East Germany) concepts are acceptable, it's just that their voter group overlaps with CDU/Union and the FDP Very Happy
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