Re: Donald Trump watch

by Freeza Thu Feb 02, 2017 6:01 pm

Myesyats wrote:It's far easier to act as if critics of Islam have a problem with Muslims as people than it is to accept the uncomfortable truth that Islam is different.

Do you not follow Quran as a true Muslim?

by MJ Thu Feb 02, 2017 6:41 pm

Myesyats wrote:It's far easier to act as if critics of Islam have a problem with Muslims as people than it is to accept the uncomfortable truth that Islam is different.

Do you not follow Quran as a true Muslim?

Are there not thousands of contradictions in every holy book? Is everything to be taken literally? Is everything to be followed to the letter or is interpretation not a fundamental part of religion, hence clerics?

My personal beliefs have nothing to do with this discussion but just for your peace of mind, I'm definitely not the bogeyman under your bed - I'm an agnostic.

But as someone who lives in a majority Muslim country with Muslim family, I'm probably more sensitive to stupidity with regards to Islam.

It is my firm belief that Islam needs a period of reformation and in order to do that, the world needs to galvanize moderate Muslims, aka the majority, and not keep the spotlight on the morons in the mix. Because the latter is the status quo, that leads to further alienation, driving people who feel marginalized towards radicalization.

But, by all means, make blanket statements about a monolithic religion and be part of the mainstream who are only exacerbating tensions.

by Myesyats Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:11 pm

How do we differentiate between moderate and radical Muslims then, as we know people prove to be impeccable liars?

I agree with you although I do think you are underestimating the number of radicalized Muslims in comparision with moderate part of the Muslim population.

I am pretty sure that a radicalized Muslim definitely takes the verses of Quran literally and that is a terrifying thought.

Example: From a poll carried out by the 'Pew Research Center", which surveyed people's opinion of ISIS (Favorable, Unfavorable, Don't Know).

Opinion of ISIS in Pakistan: 72% don't know/favourable opinion, only 28% "unfavorable" opinion.

'Don't know' is prevailing but what does that mean? They're not sure? They kinda support ISIS?

by MJ Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:42 pm

Myesyats wrote:How do we differentiate between moderate and radical Muslims then, as we know people prove to be impeccable liars?

Okay. Why bother trying to reach an understanding with anyone on earth since people are such "impeccable liars"?

I'd start by not shunning them at every opportunity and labeling them terrorists and liars. If you're convinced that Muslims, whether a majority or even a large portion, are just these alien people who want nothing but to deceive and cause harm then nothing I say will convince you and you're wasting your time reading this.

But I have hope that Trump is making Americans great again (as Jon Stewart said, not in the way he planned), waking them up and letting them know that our rights are something we have to fight tooth and nail to protect. And that means Muslim Americans fighting for the rights of their black compatriots and vice versa, basically minorities who are vulnerable right now protecting each other.

So, hopefully soonly and bigly, Americans will rally around moderate Muslims and embrace them as part of the cultural melting pot. That would be a step in the right direction.

Myesyats wrote:I agree with you although I do think you are underestimating the number of radicalized Muslims in comparision with moderate part of the Muslim population.

I think you, and many others, greatly underestimate how many Muslims just want to live peaceful lives, find good work, get married, have kids, buy weird sh*t on eBay as a hobby in their old age and retire.

Myesyats wrote:I am pretty sure that a radicalized Muslim definitely takes the verses of Quran literally and that is a terrifying thought.

Many biblical verses are terrifying to consider being taken literally and there are right wing extremists in America who believe in them. There are pricks in every religious group.

Myesyats wrote:Opinion of ISIS in Pakistan: 72% don't know/favourable opinion, only 28% "unfavorable" opinion.

'Don't know' is prevailing but what does that mean? They're not sure? They kinda support ISIS?

9% favorable, 62% don't know sounds very different than "72% don't know/favourable opinion"

You could have presented these statistics by saying every majority Muslim country had a majority of people who viewed ISIS unfavorably but you had to lead with Pakistan, the anomaly

Laughing

Don't be that transparent.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/17/in-nations-with-significant-muslim-populations-much-disdain-for-isis/

by Myesyats Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:40 pm

Why shouldn't I choose Pakistan? 182M population, 89% prefer the Sharia law (example: favorable view of executing of those who apostate to Islam).

Is that not alarming?

There's 1.5 billion Muslims right? Let's say that 5% of them are Jihadis. Seems not that much, right? But it's, in fact, 75 million people who are actively involved in Jihad.

The religion of peace?

In 2014, the Anti-Defamation League released the results of polling 53,100 people in 102 countries for evidence of anti-Semitic attitudes and beliefs. The numbers from the majority-Muslim world are difficult to believe for those steeped in politically correct rhetoric about Islam. A full 74 percent of North African and Middle Eastern residents registered anti-Semitic beliefs, including 92 percent of Iraqis, a whopping 69 percent of relatively secular Turks, and 74 percent of Saudis.

http://c5.nrostatic.com/sites/default/files/death-penalty-for-leaving-islam.png

I can present you with more facts if you reckon I'm cherry-picking.

There's no such example when it comes to any other religion and religiously motivated violence in particular. Don't even get me started on terrorism stats when it comes to Christianity vs Islam because you would be suprised here as well.

Qur’an:9:29 – “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

How do you interpret this? I'm as serious as I can be here and just as curious. Even if "only" 5% of all Muslims in the world follow that rule, that's still 75 million people.

by MJ Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:02 pm

It's honestly like talking to a prejudiced wall Laughing

I already addressed pretty much everything you've thrown at me in the form of these incredibly intimidating numbers that definitely prove Muslims are a violent people worthy of warring against rather than coming together with.

Educate yourself on what people mean by Sharia law because there's a difference between what a Muslim thinks when asked about it (a set of guidelines, not actual laws, that help judge cases of marriage, property rights etc so that both parties can come to an agreement. Not a verbatim interpretation of Quranic verses) - https://www.quora.com/What-do-educated-Muslims-think-of-the-Sharia-law

(side note: I'm extremely skeptical of the numbers on Lebanon. As someone who lives here, I'm 200% sure 50% wouldn't advocate punishing apostates since 40% of Muslims here are and haven't said it lol)

I'll paraphrase myself to make it simpler before you go off and do this again: "Islam never got the chance to reform. It's chance to was disrupted by Western imperialism in the Middle East. Islam does need a period of reformation and the rest of the world needs to galvanize moderates at the center of it and empower them rather than shun and ostracize them."

You're not going to convince people who live in countries that have been ravaged by war caused by decades of tension due to Western imperialism to conform to Western ideals overnight, especially when invasions, drone attacks and air bombings are still the method of dealing with them. I'm speaking ridiculously broadly here btw but the point stands.

by Myesyats Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:29 pm

MJ wrote:the rest of the world needs to galvanize moderates at the center of it and empower them rather than shun and ostracize them.

Doesn't the current migrant crisis in Europe completely condradict what you just simply phrased? Islamic terrorist attacks in 2015 were carried out at a fierce rate, like never before, exactly when Western Europe started 'empowering' Muslim refugees. We are being proven fairly frequently lately that is very hard (and probably will always be) to just "come together" and you can deny it all you want but the truth is out there, it's harsh but can't be ignored in the name of political corectness.

I see where you're coming from (and as I already said I agree with you) but I don't believe in an Utopian society.

by McLewis Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:43 pm

Myesyats wrote:
McLewis wrote:Yes, because what happens in California absolutely represents my views and beliefs here in Michigan. Take that shit somewhere else, bub.

Yes, I lean left, but that doesn't mean I condone violence, rioting and attacking people. The right loves to paint everyone with a broad brush and then act hurt when the same is done to them.

You forget, we now have an alt-right movement in this country. They have made it no secret that their agenda benefits whites above all else. The leader of their movement has our President's ear and now sits higher in influence then every military commander. While I don't support rioting and attacking people, I also don't support having someone like Bannon so close to the leader of the free world and the world's most powerful military. That is significantly more dangerous.

So basically you are mad because a right-winger is at power? That's not news. It's obvious.

Obama has done far worse things than this Muslim ban that you don't even know about because he hid it from you and BS medias like CNN fed you with sugar instead.

Erm....no. Mad isn't the right word. Dismayed fits better. Even then, this is not the traditional Bush/Reagan-era right wing we're talking about here. This is an entirely different beast. More feral and more primitive. They shoot first, ask questions significantly later and that's only after shooting from the hip. That's absolutely dangerous. Trump isn't the problem, he's too much of an ego-centric moron to be the problem. It's the power behind the throne that keeps me up night: Bannon and his ilk.

As for what happened in 2011, it's a talking point basically at this point. All of these folks on the right going on about Obama doing the same thing is as much news to them as it was to me and others on the left. To pretend otherwise is dishonest, although many of them will try anyway. I will freely admit that I had to read up on what Obama did and as I understand it, it was a proactive response to a clearly identified threat posed by 2 specific Iraqi individuals. That's a farcry from a blanket ban on everyone from 7 different nations, causing untold chaos in its wake. We're comparing apples and mangoes here.

by MJ Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:02 am

Myesyats wrote:
Doesn't the current migrant crisis in Europe completely condradict what you just simply phrased? Islamic terrorist attacks in 2015 were carried out at a fierce rate, like never before, exactly when Western Europe started 'empowering' Muslim refugees. We are being proven fairly frequently lately that is very hard (and probably will always be) to just "come together" and you can deny it all you want but the truth is out there, it's harsh but can't be ignored in the name of political corectness.

I see where you're coming from (and as I already said I agree with you) but I don't believe in an Utopian society.

It's not because none of the terrorist attacks in Europe were carried out or had anything to do with refugees. It's easy and lazy to point at the migrant crisis as the fault but the attackers were all European citizens/residents. People who were already there.

I'm not calling for anyone to be politically correct. Just more open-minded and less bigoted. There are plenty of Muslims, and Arabs in general, who have such harsh feelings towards the West, and with good reason, that it would take a lot to create some sort of dialogue and bridge the gap. This is very idealistic but when the alternative is to consider the increasingly polarized opinions and racial tensions in America as the direction we're headed in, there isn't much option but to fight that.

by Myesyats Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:37 pm

MJ wrote:It's not because none of the terrorist attacks in Europe were carried out or had anything to do with refugees. It's easy and lazy to point at the migrant crisis as the fault but the attackers were all European citizens/residents. People who were already there.

That's completely not true (just 2 months ago an Austrian woman was stabbed at a Syrian refugee center, for reading the Bible... so much for tolerance and peacefulness). Obviously the most deadly attacks have been carried out by residents because it takes planning and effort which consumes a lot of time. Does that change the fact that parents of the attackers were also once refugees/immigrants from predominantly Muslim countries? No.

Some actual statements now instead of your biased comments.

After welcoming almost 12,000 refugees to their region, three-quarters of Canadians living in the province of Ontario now say that Muslim immigrants hold fundamentally different values and a majority believe mainstream Islam promotes violence, according to a new survey to be released this week.

While 60 percent of Ontarians say they initially supported the decision to import Syrian refugees, 75 percent now say Muslim immigrants hold fundamentally different values and a majority now say Islam’s mainstream doctrines promote violence. Only one-third of those in the region have a positive impression of the religion.

The survey by the Arab Center for Research and Policy Studies found that 10 percent of the displaced Syrian refugees have a mixed or lukewarm — but not entirely negative — view of the terror group. In response to the survey’s findings, Investors Business Daily pointed out, “That means 23% — or almost 1 in 4 — could be susceptible to ISIS recruitment.”

I am sure you are well educated as is the entire population of Lebanon which is probably the only predominantly Muslim country which is completely against the IS but Lebanon's population is like what, 4.5M? That's not much. In comparision with 182M Pakistan where views on the IS (among many other absurd views) are completely different.

I am not a religious person myself, I don't identify myself with any religion and I don't believe in a "God" or any other several gods, therefore I consider myself unbiased.

Can you say my worries are unwarranted? No. I am not prejudiced against Islam. For one thing, I think every religion is nonsense, an imposed top-down perception of the world is wrong and inadvisable. Consequently, I reckon carrying out attacks against "non believers" in the name of an imaginary creation is the single most idiotic thing and I am yet to be proven otherwise that this act is not popular among radical Islamists which make up, perhaps contrary to general belief, a large portion of the Muslim population.

by zigra Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:51 pm

Am I the only one who's incredibly annoyed by mousecat posting stuff without adding the source btw?

Not talking about the last post in particular but it's something I noticed time and time again over the last weeks.

by Myesyats Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:58 pm

I forgot to add the source to the bit about Canadians so here it is: http://dailycaller.com/2016/07/06/after-importing-thousands-of-refugees-canadians-now-say-muslim-immigrants-have-fundamentally-different-values/

I don't know why are you implying that though, I always try to add the source to the surveys and other stuff I post.

Can you please specify ther other instances where I did not cite any source and I should have?

by zigra Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:53 pm

Search is a complete pain so I'll just take some recent posts I could find by myself.

http://www.goallegacy.net/t40171p175-european-refugee-crisis#1721048
http://www.goallegacy.net/t40171p175-european-refugee-crisis#1721011
http://www.goallegacy.net/t40171p175-european-refugee-crisis#1720929

I mean I've seen worse as with your posts it's obvious they are not from you and you're quoting other sources. Would just be very nice to have the source linked as it's a very important piece of information.

by Myesyats Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:18 pm

Oh, yeah, those were from a source that wrote in Polish and I just translated it, couldn't have been bothered with looking for English equivalents.

Here about refugees coming back to Calais: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2761961/more-than-100-migrants-are-arriving-back-in-calais-every-week-despite-authorities-demolishing-massive-jungle-campsite-four-months-ago/

Migrants from North Africa attacking the Chinese in France: http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/759995/North-African-youth-gangs-Chinese-migrants-Paris

And that inerview with Somalian refugee: http://speisa.com/modules/articles/index.php/item.3632/i-have-come-to-stay-forever-not-to-work.html

by BarrileteCosmico Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:22 pm

People let's please get back to topic, if you want to discuss Muslim migration we have other topics where that has been discussed at length but this one is about Trump, so please limit your discussion of Muslim migration as it relates to Trump's EO.

by FennecFox7 Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:04 am

So now Belgian athletes aren't being let in on account of their mena heritage

How do I know I won't be detained if i go visit Morocco or Algeria from Texas? Like what the *bleep*

Forget conservatives, the alt right lives in their own world of women abuse, racism, and lack of pussy and any sort of social skill. The word hate is embedded in their hearts, you can't reason with retards

by Myesyats Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:47 am

Why does any criticism = hate for liberals?

It seems that you suffer from a syndrome where as a mother uses her child's illness to gain sympathy, liberals use minorities' victimhood to make themselves look like good and moral people.

You use these words very often: Hate, racism, feminism, homophobia etc. and you expect people who state their opinions on actual facts to lie down and apologize when they hear these words?

I guess all would be fine if I criticized white "priviliged" males and Christians? Then I would get upvotes?

by Winter is Coming Sat Feb 04, 2017 11:27 am

Myesyats wrote:I am not a religious person myself, I don't identify myself with any religion and I don't believe in a "God" or any other several gods, therefore I consider myself unbiased.

Right...

by MJ Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:02 pm

Myesyats wrote:
I guess all would be fine if I criticized white "priviliged" males and Christians? Then I would get upvotes?

Because you're spouting hateful right-wing rhetoric with sketchy sources and examples (that do not prove the rule you're trying to argue, that Muslims are deceptive and violent people who want to f*ck your sh*t up) in a forum where the majority appear to be more open-minded and tolerant.

I also don't get your obsession with upvotes Laughing

by Myesyats Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:07 pm

No, you're not tolerant. You've called me a bigot several times, that means you don't tolerate me nor my opinion.

Tolerance is good but to a certain degree. Everything has its limits.

by Myesyats Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:21 pm

Also, my sources are not "sketchy" just because they don't suit your views. Typical denial of facts. On what do you base your opinion if not on facts? That's interesting.

by MJ Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:26 pm

Myesyats wrote:No, you're not tolerant. You've called me a bigot several times, that means you don't tolerate me nor my opinion.

Tolerance is good but to a certain degree. Everything has its limits.

I don't tolerate intolerance. That doesn't mean I don't respect basic human integrity and free speech. You have the right (depending on where you live because I'm not sure it'll be upheld much longer with your boy Donald in charge) to speak your mind and I have the right to call you a bigot for being bigoted.

You post individual stories of refugees apparently attacking people like it's proof that Muslims shouldn't be granted asylum in Western countries because they're "impeccable liars" and are obviously plotting a way to implement Sharia law and kill all the infidels. It's absolute nonsense. There are shitty people living within every race, nation and creed and if right-wing Americans' criteria for who to let in had been the standard when their great grandparents set foot on Ellis Island then America might not be home to their bigoted asses. They exist for the very reason they're trying to deny asylum to others', because their ancestors were escaping hardships elsewhere in the world.

by Myesyats Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:42 pm

Now we're just going in circles.

You can't compare this situation to any other since where people are coming from (in great numbers, that's also important) is home to most deadly terrorist organizations out there, especially in Syria and Pakistan which is terrorists' paradise.

Being so open minded is suicidal and Germany or France are the most simple examples of this policy.

Do Christian refugees even matter to you? I doubt that. I won't call you names though, because that's not how it works.

There's a lot of Muslim countries where Muslim refugees/migrants could head to but I guess they don't have social benefits high enough?

by footyfan01 Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:14 pm

Guy from Kosovo saying shi*? When you guys need foreign countries to prevent ethnic cleansing? And now you sit here hailing Muslims being hounded. I am an atheist, I give a lot of shi* to every religions & ofcourse to Islam especially with the freaking Saudis radicalizing people. But these comments equating all Muslims in a way is pure shit.

Muslims are being treated in a manner Jews were treated pre-Holocaust. Religion in general has a troubled history & even Christianity had a very violent past.

You have got a bunch of Nazi people in US calling them alt-right who are white supremacists running around - Idiotic Climate Change denying ultra low information racist people.

Today in 2017, we wonder how could people be silent when Jews were being ostracized pre-Hitler regime with this hate being build? It is being some despicable human beings that it happened & it is happening again.

Myesyats should be banned from this forum because you have to be a Minimum Decent Human Being to be here IMO, you can't get bigoted Islamophobes ! Having such people stains the dignity of the forum.

by MJ Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:46 am

Myesyats wrote:
You can't compare this situation to any other since where people are coming from (in great numbers, that's also important) is home to most deadly terrorist organizations out there, especially in Syria and Pakistan which is terrorists' paradise.

Which is why they don't want to live there. Would you?

Myesyats wrote:Being so open minded is suicidal and Germany or France are the most simple examples of this policy.

No, they're not.

Myesyats wrote:Do Christian refugees even matter to you? I doubt that.

Christian refugees matter just as much to me, because they're refugees. Not because they're Christian. Same as the Muslim refugees.

Myesyats wrote:I won't call you names though, because that's not how it works.

I'm not calling you names. I'm labeling you bigoted because the opinion you're presenting is rooted in bigotry. That doesn't mean I don't have respect for your right to say it. It just means I have profound disdain for what you actually think and the feeble ground you use to back it up.

Myesyats wrote:There's a lot of Muslim countries where Muslim refugees/migrants could head to but I guess they don't have social benefits high enough?

1.5 million in 10k square km Lebanon alone and, Lebanese political strife considered, we've done alright. I don't see what Americans (as a dual citizen, I have perspective from both sides) have to f*cking worry about when Massachusetts alone is three times the size of Lebanon and is home to not even two hundred Syrian refugees.

Can't believe those greedy refugees would prefer to live in Europe or the US instead of Lebanon where they're not legally allowed to work or own land and are often forced to find work for around $300 a month, well below the Lebanese minimum wage which is $500, since they're contracted illegally. Those fat cat refugees keep on conning honest, hard-working 'Mericans.

by Myesyats Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:17 am

footyfan01 wrote:Guy from Kosovo saying shi*? When you guys need foreign countries to prevent ethnic cleansing? And now you sit here hailing Muslims being hounded. I am an atheist, I give a lot of shi* to every religions & ofcourse to Islam especially with the freaking Saudis radicalizing people. But these comments equating all Muslims in a way is pure shit.

Muslims are being treated in a manner Jews were treated pre-Holocaust. Religion in general has a troubled history & even Christianity had a very violent past.

You have got a bunch of Nazi people in US calling them alt-right who are white supremacists running around - Idiotic Climate Change denying ultra low information racist people.

Today in 2017, we wonder how could people be silent when Jews were being ostracized pre-Hitler regime with this hate being build? It is being some despicable human beings that it happened & it is happening again.

Myesyats should be banned from this forum because you have to be a Minimum Decent Human Being to be here IMO, you can't get bigoted Islamophobes ! Having such people stains the dignity of the forum.

My reasoning is solely based on my personal safety and a lot of world leaders agree with me.

I condemned Trump's ban from the start (I thought it was legal at least from the legal side but it seems now it's not) but the thing I am against is mass immigration which is not in the country's best interests.

Also, it is my right to consider Islam as a religion that incites violence, even if only a small, uneducated portion of the population believes that.

Now the European Union seems to have gotten what I've been saying for a long time and for the next refugee wave they want to tighten the tracts on and about the Mediterranean Sea with trained soldiers and locate the coming people in camps in Libya, I believe, which is a predominantly Muslim country and where it makes sense.

I''m not from Kosovo, BTW. I just picked their flag at random at some point for no reason.

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