The Lionel Messi Appreciation Thread & Fan Club III

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Post by Harmonica Mon Oct 24, 2016 4:50 pm

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Post by Harmonica Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:31 pm

Diego Alves has the penalty save record of 21/42 (50%) in Liga, Messi is the only player who has scored 3/3 (100%) penalties against him. #Opta
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Post by Winter is Coming Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:35 pm

Messi Proud
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Post by Harmonica Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:49 pm

Harmonica wrote:Diego Alves has the penalty save record of 21/42 (50%) in Liga, Messi is the only player who has scored 3/3 (100%) penalties against him. #Opta
This is quite funny considering how he psyched Messi before the kick: "I've already stopped you. (in Copa Del Rey) You've tasted that. Do you remember?"

How do you intimidate a Super Saiyan? Laughing
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Post by Harmonica Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:20 pm

LFP Best Forward 15-16
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Griezmann stole LFP Best Player this time for finishing 3rd in the league. Laughing And the corruption continues to eat the real and fair football. Messi sweeping it 5 years a row broke Perez's back, and that started the corruption, omitting Messi from the votes, inventing multiple awards just for Fakenaldo and so on...
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Post by Myesyats Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:34 pm

Harmonica wrote:"I've already stopped you. (in Copa Del Rey) You've tasted that. Do you remember?"

How do you intimidate a Super Saiyan? Laughing

Haha, that's funny....I wondered what he said to Messi and to be frank I don't think it was a good idea to anger the beast Laughing
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Post by Harmonica Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:04 am

Messi should be winning his 8th Ballon d'Or, if it was actually given to the best player of the year. Sadly fakeness and corruption has ruined football.

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Post by M99 Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:00 am

WhoScored rofl Proud
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Post by Myesyats Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:46 pm

Pogba ahead of Suarez among many others.

Whoscored is soo irrelevant.
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Post by Harmonica Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:48 pm

Myesyats wrote:Pogba ahead of Suarez among many others.

Whoscored is soo irrelevant.
Striker who plays ahead of best ever playmaker Messi, and Neymar, compared to playmaker who plays behind average strikers? You appreciate Suarez more?
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Post by zigra Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:57 pm

How dare you plebs not appreciate whoscored rating No They use all them stats ffs!
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Post by Harmonica Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:58 pm

zigra wrote:How dare you plebs not appreciate whoscored rating  No  They use all them stats ffs!
It's not really that, rather than infinitely more valid argument vs. non-argument.
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Post by Myesyats Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:05 pm

Harmonica wrote:
Myesyats wrote:Pogba ahead of Suarez among many others.

Whoscored is soo irrelevant.
Striker who plays ahead of best ever playmaker Messi, and Neymar, compared to playmaker who plays behind average strikers? You appreciate Suarez more?

You act like Pogba plays with toddlers? Suarez won the golden boot, he delivers almost every game.... Pogba has not actually delivered in ages it feels like.
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Post by zigra Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:08 pm

How is whoscored a valid argument?
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Post by Harmonica Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:21 pm

zigra wrote:How is whoscored a valid argument?
It's based on collective reality, and preconcieved subjectivity that is transparent enough.
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Post by zigra Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:53 pm

Transparent? So you know how the stats actually influence the rating? I mean I get that you get loads of points for dribbling or scoring but how many? And what about the less important stats that still influence the rating?

However that's not even my main issue with whoscored. The problem for me is that it (for obvious reasons) only meassures how good the players do what they actually do. How often does this player try to dribble past a player and how good is he at it? They try to answer this question but to judge a player it's just as important to ask if it was even a good idea to try going past the player.

What if for example a player ruins an attacking opportunity not by losing the ball but because he makes the wrong choice? Plays a back pass that slows the attack down. Is this tracked? I don't think so. Actually I'm sure it isn't because usually it's not that obvious what a player should do.

I saw this happen time and time again with Gudelj for us. Whoscored rates him very highly yet none of the fans rates him. I was somewhat surprised about how such a big difference could exist but then I realised that's the problem.
He slows down the play simply because he doesn't play the right passes. His passes will still find the players but he wastes many great moves simply by passing to the wrong player.
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Post by Harmonica Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:26 pm

Yes, you can calculate the function pretty accurately if you just follow the rating, or if you know math you can deduct it from reasonable sample of ratings. Goal is 1.0, assist/throughball/penalty 0.5, dribbles/key passes next highest and so on.

That's not a problem on relative quality. Players mostly do things they are able to do. If player is good at beating players, he usually is beating players, if he's good at poaching goals, he usually is poaching goals. Seldomly players are doing something that they aren't good at. There's difference however on produced quality on average, through ball is harder to do than key pass on average, beating a player is harder to do than passing the ball on average and so on, they also create more on average.

Back pass doesn't really affect whoscored ratings, because you aren't doing anything positive enough, and if you get dispossessed or lose the ball your rating gets slightly worse, which it should. And if you're able to put player through, create goal scoring situation or score you get boost on ratings. All rather logical. You're thinking scenario where player ruins viable attack because of safe choice. I don't think this happens enough to be factored in. Backpasses usually happen, when you aren't skilled enough to take advantage of the situation, and thus those who are skilled, and do it, relatively will get logically better rating.

What I see often, are fanbases which form on one hyped opinion and then feed on it exluding every other relation or possibility.

Whoscored is a very viable argument, it is formed logically and transparently enough. And it has very accurately predicted like top 3 ballon d'or every time, or best league players. If it doesn't agree your opinion, you should be able to argue with concrete evidence why you think it's wrong. If you can't however, then what's the point of your opinion anyway?
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Post by Harmonica Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:57 pm

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Post by Harmonica Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:12 pm

Bolivia had been fielding ineligible players and their win against Peru and draw against Chile was changed to 0-3 losses. Which means Argentina is currently outside of the qualifying zone in WCQ18.  Laughing

Argentina WCQ18

4 rounds before Messi

12 Ecuador
9 Uruguay
7 Chile
7 Brazil
7 Paraguay
-----------
5 Argentina

3 rounds with Messi

14 Argentina
13 Uruguay
13 Colombia
13 Ecuador
12 Brazil
------------
12 Paraguay

3 rounds without Messi

21 Uruguay
20 Brazil
17 Ecuador
17 Colombia
16 Chile
------------
16 Argentina

With Messi 9/9 points in 3 games.
Without Messi 7/21 points in 7 games.

Suspect
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Post by Harmonica Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:10 pm

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9 vs Arsenal (record vs single team)
8 vs Milan
6 vs ManC
...

We have come pretty far from these.

"Messi haven't scored vs English teams."
"Messi haven't scored in English soil."
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Post by Harmonica Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:24 pm

Against big teams.

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Messi has insane amount of games vs big teams being 29 years old.
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Post by zenmaster Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:56 pm

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Just look how slow messi is running , post delivering it to Neymar. As if he knew only he is going to get the ball Laughing Laughing
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Post by Valkyrja Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:42 am

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Post by Harmonica Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:59 am

20 games unbeaten streak vs Sevilla, 17 wins, 3 draws.

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Post by Harmonica Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:55 pm

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Post by Harmonica Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:31 pm

Vitolo - "To me, Leo Messi is the best player in history of football."
Vicente Iborra - "You can't stop Messi, he is the best in history."
Fabio Capello - "Pelé, Messi and Maradona are the 3 best players in the history of the game."
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