Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?

Vote remain please

ES wrote:Vote remain please

Polls are in favour of brexit. But who knows.

Quite sure at least 15-20% won't vote.

Think there will be less non voters than usual for this one. Considering it's really a big one time thing.

Some absolute idiot flew a plane over Jo Cox memorial with the banner "vote leave"

His action will only make people vote remain.

That's the problem with wanting change, typically those groups of people attract the idiots who think change means Nazi England and those *bleep* idiots ruin a real decision.

I saw one polling company say that Leave were at 45%, Remain were at 44% and 9% had yet to vote but were planning to.

To be honest I don't care much about trade and whatnot but for the sake of good foreign football players continuing to play in England I hope Remain wins.

And I haven't been following the campaigns that closely but it sounds as if the Leave argument don't have much of a plan for post-Brexit life.

Except the EU is declining and we'd be free to negotiate trade deals with the rest of the World. Personally i'd rather negotiate with America and others that have a population that can actually afford our goods unlike a number of failing European countries with massive unemployment problems.


We're the 5th largest economy in the World we really don't need the EU I won't lose any sleep if we can no longer export goods to Romania and Greece.


Short term it will likely have a negative impact, long term it won't as long as we don't *bleep* everything up.

EU is a sinking ship

@Tomwin

The problem about negotiating with the US is that they want to push TTIP through if you want to have a trade deal. TTIP contains numerous points that will be a big problem and that's why there is a big resistance against it in the EU at the moment:

TTIP is supposed to open up Europe’s public health, education and water services to US companies. This would lead to a privatisation of these areas and in the case of the UK, privatisation of the NHS.

Then TTIP wants to bring the standards on food safety and the environment closer to those of the US, which are much less strict than for example those in the EU, among them much laxer restrictions on pesticides and toxic substances and use of growth hormones in meat.

TTIP is also supposed to ease the data privacy laws and put a restriction of public access to pharmaceutical companies’ clinical trials, so they can do much more unsupervised behind closed doors.

Additionally, the EU already admitted that agreeing to TTIP would cause unemployment as jobs switch to the US, where labour standards and trade union rights are lower. This problem would occur in the UK as well if they will try to get a trade agreement with the US, too, unless they will kick out many of the workers rights that are uphold via EU (!) regulations, which the UK could throw out after a Brexit, of course. But of course this would not exactly be to the benefit of the workers in the UK either.

The biggest no-go of the TTIP is the introduction of Investor-State Dispute Settlements (ISDS), which allow companies to sue governments if those governments’ policies cause a loss of profits. This means instead of more souvereignty, a UK trade deal with the US under TTIP would in fact lead to less souvereignty as the UK government could be sued as soon as it decides to do something that causes profit losses to the big companies. So much for sovereign law making then - you always have to make sure not to diminish profits of US companies.

TTIP is the biggest threat to Europe without a doubt. At under so circumstances TTIP should go through.

Atm there is no plan on what will happen after brexit. Cameron hasn't said anything and his party is divided with remain/exit. So post referendum if we do vote out then the country will be in turmoil for at least 3-4 years. Economy will massively suffer for a while. We can of course trade with non EU countries like Canada, China, Australia etc but that will all take years to happen.

If TTIP goes through because of brexit then I am out of here lol. Cameron's wet dream is to make NHS private. TTIP will make that happen.

I'm flying to London tomorrow, right on the day of the vote, stay till Monday.

So I sure hope you separatist LADS don't let me down and make it happen, so that the pound has lost some sizable percentage of its value already the moment I go to the cash exchange at Victoria station at 9 in the evening, that way I can actually afford to have a coffee and a couple of pints over the weekend.

And by Monday I'm expecting to purchase maybe a few apartment blocks with the wave of a 50 € note

Hapless_Hans wrote:I'm flying to London tomorrow, right on the day of the vote, stay till Monday.

So I sure hope you separatist LADS don't let me down and make it happen, so that the pound has lost some sizable percentage of its value already the moment I go to the cash exchange at Victoria station at 9 in the evening, that way I can actually afford to have a coffee and a couple of pints over the weekend.

And by Monday I'm expecting to purchase maybe a few apartment blocks with the wave of a 50 € note

Don't think the pound will drop that quickly.

It will of course in due time going on economist reports. But in the long term, if they steer it well enough, it will become even stronger making Britain completely inaccessible to us commoners.

Funny TTIP is mentioned

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/21/eu-bypass-democracy-trade-deals/



There's a possibility that TTIP finds its way in to the EU anyway. If Britain are free to negotiate their own trade deals, the key word being 'negotiate' we're not forced to accept anything.

If the shady EU powers that be end up sneaking this one through then we'll have to suck it up and smile.

Besides, USA was just an example. There's a whole world out there and I don't see why the Worlds 5th largest economy couldn't navitage their own way through it.

As I said, short term there will be some instability. Long term? Could be better off, much better off actually. Especially if the EU keeps going on as it is, won't be difficult to achieve.

@Tomwin
On the other hand, France is vehemently against TTIP and even threatened to break up the negotiations altogether. TTIP as is is losing support a big time among the population in general, and it is as low as to 13-17% for it atm in Germany and France, IIRC.

THe above mentioned support of the Italian government to bypass democracy is not shared with the other governments, and there are currently constitutional complaints being set up in several countries, thus there will be quite some legal action.

In the meantime, the EU pushes the US to compromise on several points, which the US refuses to do. Thus the current standings are more that the agreements will be pushed farther into the future, even though Obama would like to have an agreement furing his tenure in office still. And even though Angie would like to push things through, fortunately France are blocking things big time.

As for the UK - Cameron is strongly in favour of TTIP, so you can expect him agreeing to it to further any trade agreements with the US - and without the EU there will be no one to stop him on this.

El Gunner wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:I'm flying to London tomorrow, right on the day of the vote, stay till Monday.

So I sure hope you separatist LADS don't let me down and make it happen, so that the pound has lost some sizable percentage of its value already the moment I go to the cash exchange at Victoria station at 9 in the evening, that way I can actually afford to have a coffee and a couple of pints over the weekend.

And by Monday I'm expecting to purchase maybe a few apartment blocks with the wave of a 50 € note

Don't think the pound will drop that quickly.

No?

I might be wrong. I'm no expert

rwo power wrote:@Tomwin
On the other hand, France is vehemently against TTIP and even threatened to break up the negotiations altogether. TTIP as is is losing support a big time among the population in general, and it is as low as to 13-17% for it atm in Germany and France, IIRC.

THe above mentioned support of the Italian government to bypass democracy is not shared with the other governments, and there are currently constitutional complaints being set up in several countries, thus there will be quite some legal action.

In the meantime, the EU pushes the US to compromise on several points, which the US refuses to do. Thus the current standings are more that the agreements will be pushed farther into the future, even though Obama would like to have an agreement furing his tenure in office still. And even though Angie would like to push things through, fortunately France are blocking things big time.

As for the UK - Cameron is strongly in favour of TTIP, so you can expect him agreeing to it to further any trade agreements with the US - and without the EU there will be no one to stop him on this.

Cameron is done one way or the other, public and his own party have lost faith in him.

The thing is, if we genuinely NEED the EU to protect us from ourselves then we are a failed country and i'll be moving elsewhere regardless. We should not and imo will not need the EU to stop us from screwing ourselves over.

I don't think TTIP will make ground here regardless, but I don't trust the EU to have all of the power, and potentially a lot more as time goes on. At least if our elected party wants to screw the public we can vote them out and they actually have to deal with the consequences.


If the EU presidents want to screw us over we have to accept that. Big difference.

@Tomwin

Considering the fact how many opt-outs and vetos the UK actually managed to push through, I wouldn't say that you have no say in the EU. After all, the UK opted out of Schengen, out of the Euro, vetoed the financial transaction tax and vetoed tariffs on Chinese steel dumping prices among other stuff.

So it sounds as if you actually got more of your will through than the EU in all of these things. Thus I'm really a bit puzzled that you seem to feel you are powerless versus the EU, which you really aren't.

El Gunner wrote:I might be wrong. I'm no expert

You're probably right.

"55 measures opposed by the UK; 55 defeats

Business for Britain recently analysed votes which took place at the Council of the EU since 1996. The Council is where national ministers from each EU country meet to decide on laws. The decisions they take must be unanimous in some cases (for instance foreign and security policy) or require a simple or qualified majority in others.
Business for Britain identified and listed - using publicly available sources and Freedom of Information Requests - 55 occasions in which the UK voted 'no' to a measure put before the Council and when the measure passed anyway because the UK was outvoted."


From business for britain. 55 out of 55 times we've been told to stfu and get in line.

And if we don't want to join the Euro disagree with transaction tax and certain tarrifs then really we're not a part of the EU anyway. No point paying Billions of Pounds to be in an organisation we're at odds with.

Sure we get free trade but that comes with the other major problem, free movement of people within the EU coming from countries with much worse economic climates on to our tiny Island to compete for unskilled jobs.

We do not have enough space to keep going like that. Keep the free market if it means we can actually get kids in to first choice schools, get on the property ladder and get a doctors appointment sooner than 3-4 weeks after trying.


Do you know we don't even have the right to reject an EU citizen from coming to our country if they have a criminal record? Unless we can prove that they are an active threat they have a good chance of being welcomed in.

Even the remain camp said uncontrolled immigration is a big problem. But as long as we're in the EU we can not fix it. We can't even negotiate for it. Immigration is great when you recruit the people you actually NEED and it's under control. Under the EU the country will continue to get flooded by economic migrants, many of which have the (lack off) skills we do not need at all.

If you were outvoted in these points, it just means you didn't manage to convince the others that your point would be beneficial for the greater good. And as you could be outvoted, this means that it was a democratic vote and thus it shows that the EU is in fact a democratic organisation and not a dictatorship.

If the UK could push through something on their own without the others having the right to vote things down if they don't appear beneficial, then it would be a dictatorship.

As for the immigration point - what about the immigrants from outside the EU that don't fall under the EU jurisdiction anyway?

Yes democracy is wonderful, until you can no longer make changes that will benefit your own country because somebody in Greece or Romania don't agree with you.

At what point do we put our own countries and peoples needs first? Short answer is, we can't. Not in the EU.

We can't even deport terrorists without the EUs go ahead. Our own national security is hindered by morons.

How much can you put your people's needs first when you negotiate trade deals with larger economies like the US, China, Russia or the EU where you are the junior partner and will have to agree to numerous demands of the other side to get the trade deal you want?

Except we'll actually have an input and the ability to negotiate on our own behalf. Not told to get in line by the EU at every turn because what's best for us isn't best for some failing country with awful unemployment rates who WE usually end up bailing out because the EU can demand larger payments from us because we have a good financial year.