Re: Rafa played a suspended player...

by halamadrid2 Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:36 pm

The Demon of Carthage wrote:The players don't like him because he asks them to work hard? Where did you come up with that? Danilo works hard? BBC work hard? He's killing Modric and playing several players including James out of position, that's all that he's doing.

It seems to me that some of you are defending Rafa even in the wrong. This happened to him at Valencia and now here. Chendo is part of his Staff, and so is Jesus Olmo.

What he needs to do is pack his bags and take his incompetent staff with him. Wouldn't mind if Perez followed them as well.

BBC are the main cause of our defensive problem=check
Rafa trying to solve that by only playing Ronaldo and Bale=check
James is a tactical retard=check
Rafa does not play him until he learns and playing Lucas and Isco instead who eont make us play a 424 formation when they are on=check
James moans as a result despite not justifying being first choice=check
Ronaldo is asked to run more=check
Ronaldo moans=check

Also i dont think a single play bar defence and goalie played in their preferred position under Carlo so there goes the playing players out of position excuse

Players keep getting injured so he cant play his first choice regularly

I am not making excuses, these are cold hard facts. I didnt even want Rafa but lets not stop thinking objectively for a minute. Rafa is many things but he has had to face a hurdle as tall as the eiffel tower before he even signed his contract. Give him a break

by halamadrid2 Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:37 pm

Vibe wrote:
halamadrid2 wrote:Last time I checked Rafa does not handle our fax machine

When was the last time you checked?

Perhaps, since then, Real have realized they hired a fat waiter and gave him a more appropriate job of handling fax machines rather than footballers. They probably did not expect his machine management to be worse than his man management.

What's your point?

by halamadrid2 Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:40 pm

Nivash wrote:Last I checked, it's a manager's job to manage their staff, including ensuring that the staff do their jobs. Overseeing that people do their job (ie. being a manager) is a very different thing to actually doing their jobs for them.

Rafa, being the manager, is responsible.

No, staff have their own superior that ensure they do their jobs. A coach/manager manages his players and ensures they follow routine practices. Beyond that, matters are beyond their control. Which is why employees get sacked and reinstated without the coach's approval

by The Demon of Carthage Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:36 pm

Let's run your points one by one:

1. BBC are the main cause of our defensive problems: Of course, who's even arguing this?

2. Playing only Ronaldo and Bale to solve the problem? Who told you that? It only happened one game and that's because Benzema is a disgusting criminal. He'll be back tomorrow.

3. James is a tactical retard: he's smarter than BBC combined, if there's anybody who deserves to have the team built around him, it's James.

4. James has every right to complain given the fact that Rafa is playing much less talented players than him who haven't justified why they are first-choice.

5. Ronaldo is asked to run more? Is he? Cause I only judge by what I see on the pitch. I don't care whether he's being asked or not. All I care about is whether he does it or not. Ronaldo doesn't run? Check.

6. Don't compare Rafa to a three-time CL winner, really. It doesn't help Rafa's case at all.

7. Rafa had the entire squad, fully fit for the clasico..and got smashed. So there goes your excuse of him not delivering due to injuries.

8. The hurdle you're speaking of, that Rafa is facing, was the same one that Carlo faced but with more depth than Carlo. Difference is, Carlo won the CL and the CDR in his first year with fashion. Rafa is already out of the Copa. Not to mention that we're already halfway into the season and our football is still horrendous.

by Valkyrja Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:23 pm

James doesn't have to prove anything. He's been our best player since the turn of 2015 and and should be the first name on the team sheet. The first thing we should do next summer is to offload BBC and build around James. It would be better to start with that in winter but I'm keeping it as realistic as possible, even if I have the feeling that only Cristiano and Benzema will leave.

by Myesyats Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:27 pm

Radio Cádiz ‏@RadioCadiz 23m
ÚLTIMA HORA: El Juez único da la razón al #cadizcf. El Madrid eliminado de la Copa

That means they're out, right?

by StrugaRock Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:39 pm

Yup, official, we are out of Copa :facepalm:

by Cyborg Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:40 pm

The Demon of Carthage wrote:
3. James is a tactical retard: he's smarter than BBC combined, if there's anybody who deserves to have the team built around him, it's James.

Ozil and Di Maria deserved this.

Real Madrid make silly signings and sell players without proper consideration.

Sack coaches who achieved with no reasonable or strategic cause.

This club is very frustrating

by Vibe Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:51 pm

halamadrid2 wrote:
Vibe wrote:
halamadrid2 wrote:Last time I checked Rafa does not handle our fax machine

When was the last time you checked?

Perhaps, since then, Real have realized they hired a fat waiter and gave him a more appropriate job of handling fax machines rather than footballers. They probably did not expect his machine management to be worse than his man management.

What's your point?

My point is the same as when Real hired Rafa... There isn't one.

by Shamirr Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:14 pm

YES!!!! We got DQd!!! FU Perez! Bring on our elections! #FlorentinoDimision I Hope the Socios step up and stand up for our club!

by FalcaoPunch Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:19 pm

James a "tactical retard" rofl

Cmon now I'll agree that when he's in the mid his work rate could be better and when compared to Isco in that position I don't believe he "works" as hard but again those two are being playing out of position to accommodate BBC

Who I feel are the actual "tactical retards". There is no cohesion it's every man for themselves. Rafa doesn't make things better because he tells them and us they have free roles.

Make a better point like Nick has when talking about James as a player, his position, and where he's being played. At this point with how we are set up he's considered surplus but that's not his fault. We can't get the best out of him as a CM or a RW but we won't accommodate him or Isco for that matter as long as BBC is a thing

by jibers Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:16 pm

halamadrid2 wrote:
The Demon of Carthage wrote:The players don't like him because he asks them to work hard? Where did you come up with that? Danilo works hard? BBC work hard? He's killing Modric and playing several players including James out of position, that's all that he's doing.

It seems to me that some of you are defending Rafa even in the wrong. This happened to him at Valencia and now here. Chendo is part of his Staff, and so is Jesus Olmo.

What he needs to do is pack his bags and take his incompetent staff with him. Wouldn't mind if Perez followed them as well.

BBC are the main cause of our defensive problem=check
Rafa trying to solve that by only playing Ronaldo and Bale=check
James is a tactical retard=check
Rafa does not play him until he learns and playing Lucas and Isco instead who eont make us play a 424 formation when they are on=check
James moans as a result despite not justifying being first choice=check
Ronaldo is asked to run more=check
Ronaldo moans=check

Also i dont think a single play bar defence and goalie played in their preferred position under Carlo so there goes the playing players out of position excuse

Players keep getting injured so he cant play his first choice regularly

I am not making excuses, these are cold hard facts. I didnt even want Rafa but lets not stop thinking objectively for a minute. Rafa is many things but he has had to face a hurdle as tall as the eiffel tower before he even signed his contract. Give him a break

One of the worst statements I have seen on this forum in a long time.

by The Demon of Carthage Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:17 pm

Exactly. James as a 10 kills. He's good enough to have the team built around him and I can't believe he's the one being sacrificed for the actual "tactical retards" BBC.

BBC, Rafa and Perez need to go.

And the socios? Holy mother of God, there are completely and utterly powerless and silent as death. How come Perez got away with firing Carlo? How come he got away with appointing this potato Benitez? How come they don't make any sort of pressure to displace BBC? It seems to me they are only good at whistling their own players during games. And the cheering up? It's lackluster and weak. Sometimes I hear more the fans of the visiting team than ours. It's crazy.

Do something goddammit, Real Madrid has become a laughing stock.

by jibers Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:26 pm

The Demon of Carthage wrote:Exactly. James as a 10 kills. He's good enough to have the team built around him and I can't believe he's the one being sacrificed for the actual "tactical retards" BBC.

BBC, Rafa and Perez need to go.

And the socios? Holy mother of God, there are completely and utterly powerless and silent as death. How come Perez got away with firing Carlo? How come he got away with appointing this potato Benitez? How come they don't make any sort of pressure to displace BBC? It seems to me they are only good at whistling their own players during games. And the cheering up? It's lackluster and weak. Sometimes I hear more the fans of the visiting team than ours. It's crazy.

Do something goddammit, Real Madrid has become a laughing stock.

Because Real Madrid is plutocracy. Florentino changing the bye laws means he will stay in power and will have no one to challenge him fo the foreseeable future. Operation blue elephant that took Barcelona into success can't happen. genius in the finance department, hugely flawed in sporting matters.

by Mr Nick09 Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:44 pm

socios voted the change, perez did not force anyone to agree lol

by Pedram Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:58 pm

Mr Nick09 wrote:socios voted the change, perez did not force anyone to agree lol

lol why would they reduce their own chance of taking over the club by enacting such laws ? looks like these socios aren't sane either.

by titosantill Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:59 pm

to be honest i won't trust any of the socios either. a lot of them are probably even more irresponsible than florentino, from a strictly financial/economic standpoint. if not, they would have gone at logger heads with him when he was implementing the presidential statutes. besides wanting to always run the club, florentino probably knows of their incompetence

we had the right set up when we had a manager who simply told the president who he wants to sign and when. it got out of hand, when it felt like we gave that manager too much power and he decided to burn bridges with almost every player and people at the club cos he wanted out. with carlo we went back to the del bosque scenario, where florentino signs whoever he wants and the manager just says 'yes' to everything.

i'm not sure i want flo out; the devil i know better than the angel i don't. i don't know any of these socios, and whether we like it or not, you need talent and hardwork to win. i don't want a situation where we get some president who promises the world but can't even complete a deal to sign a player from villareal or is extremely irresponsible with club finances

imo a manager with a clear vision who can keep flo away from football related matters is what's needed. not someone controversial nor a yes-man, someone who knows his team, the formation he wants to use, how best to get players to buy into it, like a good salesman, and very importantly, who he, the manager (not florentino, not the fans, not adidas, not the marketing dept), wants to sign and sell

if rafa can become that, and get results in the process, fine. and said manager must be given the time to build and make mistakes....not 4 nil mistakes at home to your greatest rival though...but patience nontheless

by titosantill Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:07 pm

i know people will say, "hey how can you suggest flo stay". b'cos i remember when calderon was entering his last season, before the season even started, the transfer failures and how badly the media was calling for someone who could actually sign players. i remember missing out on good players in la liga, who we should have gotten with our eyes closed. i also remember the irresponsibility of lorenzo sanz, and how he was saved by people like raul, carlos, hierro, morientes, redondo and so on...

if the socios subscribed to florentino's change in statutes, which they did (they actually did twice, cos before the percentage of the club budget the president was required to have personally was less than 15 percent, florentino increased it twice and they said YES), then i'm not sure any of them is responsible enough to run the club, especially from a financial/economic standpoint.....which is necessary for a club's survival

by Mr Nick09 Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:27 pm

A sporting director would do, rather than a new preeident. I agree, the devil you is better than the angel you dont know....

Perez needs help with football matter, he needs to rely on someone to help him make sporting decisions but i cant see who he can trust enough to do that. He is a guy who when he likes a player like bale, he cant take a step back and see the situation clearly. It still baffles me he sogned him, james and let go of di maria however difficult he was. Di Maria is still better than both and probably still works as much as both combined. Its a shame, we can just close our eyes and pray. But better him than the sanchis, boludo or what not.

by Bankz Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:44 pm

The irony is most madrid posters and fans alike all wanted ancelotti gone.. Just go back to the threads and internet ffs!!! Now, somehow suddenly, they all want ancelotti back.
Reminds me of the government tbh.. Where the public always rate former higher than the current ruler, wishing he was still there..

I can bet ancelotti wouldn't do any better with this squard. People seem to forget that ancelotti didn't achieve much in madrid either. His 2nd season was trophyless even after going on a 21 game winning streak ffs!!! and in his first season, he was a ramos header away from ending that one with only the copa del rey. Infact, that guy would even stand a better chance of giving u the moon than winning a league title to save his life.. And Now people are acting like he's some sort of savior or coaching god.

I even remember how he subbornly kept playing bale even when he was destroying madrid, how he basically ruined kroos and the starting 11 at the business end of the season and even how madrid became Atletico's bitch when he went there. Laughing

Although admittedly, the players always wanted ancelotti to stay back, and ancelotti had a beautiful personality but that doesn't change the truth.

Btw, yes, benitez is a good coach, but not a great one, infact he's a poor mans version of ancelotti.. But pls let's stop it with this "why the f*** did flo sack carlo?" Movement.

Reminds me how the fans wanted rafa to play BBC, james and an attacking squad altogether and ended being annihilated by barca yet still blamed him for yielding to the fans demand, and when he didn't yield people blamed him for not using common sense or listening to the fan base.

Like hala said, let's give rafa a break here as carlos who people now claim to love so much wasn't blameless either.. Btw, Who says benitez can't win the CL and league title in his first season anyway?

by The Demon of Carthage Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:02 pm

Pointless rant with all due respect. I was one of those who were against firing Carlo.

Carlo has many flaws (lack of rotation, hellbent on playing BBC,...) but he didn't deserve to be fired. He had won the CL and the CDR the year before, sacking him after that was too strict a decision even for Real Madrid's standards.

But you know what? It would've been okay to fire him, had we replaced him with an equally good or better manager. But instead, we appointed a loser with a mediocre CV and somehow expected he would do great.

Carlo owned Barça and gave them a run for their money even when we didn't win. The league race went up until the last day and we were narrowly knocked out from the CL semi-final. We played beautiful attacking football and scored goals left, right and center. Look at now, struggling to even score one.

I expected his replacement to be as good or better than him. But looks like we're out of the CDR in December, 6 points behind Barça in the league and dealing with incompetent staff members in the medical department and the administration.

If Rafa wants to save his ass, he needs to freaking dismantle BBC, bench Danilo forever and build the team around James.

by halamadrid2 Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:05 pm

James has no idea how to defend. I dont see why he gets a pass and not the BBC. I seriously do not see a difference between them. When James plays with the BBC we end up becoming a 424 with all of BBC and James positioned right next to eachother. He has been like that since he started so i have already given up hope of him changing

I would prefer a midfield of Modric-Kroos-Kovacic-Isco to him. Maybe in attack he can get away with it but playing in attack would mean him turning up in the important games which he hasnt

Again he has done nothing to deserve to start. I cant believe we went from workhorses such as ElPipa and ADM to these primadonnas we have now

by titosantill Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:25 pm

@mrnick, i'm guessing your call for a sporting director isn't necessarily cos we need one, but you know the nature of our club...where a manager can be here today gone tomorrow, and flo gets the call on players to sign. imo manager first before sporting director. and not a sporting director with coaching experience, cos all of a sudden they want to act like they know more than the manager

@bankz, a lot of people wanted carlo out in the immediate aftermath of barca's treble. i think most people on here when they saw the lack of coaching options available, they didn't mind him staying. especially due to player relationships, which is hard to build....nobody felt he would win the treble, it was more of a "we can stomach him"....there were obviously those who wanted him fired but never put up an intellectual suggestion on replacements

@hala, higuain had to leave. he was supported by fans, but the media in spain especially marca were bashing him on a daily, and he never felt the support from the higher ups. tough to stay in that kind of situation. i said it before, during the transfer and i'll say it again...the di maria move made NO sense. and anyone who supported that transfer has no right to bash florentino or say he should leave, cos he did whhat they wanted

by The Demon of Carthage Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:32 pm

James and Isco defended great in 442 under Carlo, or did you forget? Add to that, his vision and passing skills should put him right in front of BBC in the pecking order. He also should be the one taking free-kicks.

Last year, him and Isco tore teams apart from the wings.

This year, he played amazingly well pre-injury, then he got injured, then healed but somehow Rafa didn't want to use him and kept lying about him being not fully fit. That's some world-class poor man management right there. He takes him to a Copa game as if he's a second-choice team while Danilo and BBC are resting for the Getafe game? Come on now, he's not being fair to him.

I'd choose James over every single one of BBC any day of the week.

by futbol_bill Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:00 pm

Boy, there are so many items in this thread that I disagree with. Let me begin

1. The club itself screwed up badly in this latest Copa problem. The blame lies with Chendo (he is an ex player for those that don't know). It is his responsibility not Rafa and not Perez. I, like Nick find this attack on Rafa unrealistic. If anything Chendo reports to Perez not Benitez.

2. We are not yet out of Copa as an appeal has been launched and there is a precedent that may work in our favour. Nevertheless if we are deemed out, the club will play friendlies to make up the loss of games.

3. Wanting Perez out is indeed desirable, but he has the rules rigged in his favour to the point there is no real opposition to him. And no, not I nor my fellow socios are idiots. You do realize there are 80,000 of us!!! That's like saying all Americans are idiots when they elect Trump!!! Perez is a good businessman and on the financial side he has been good for the club. The issue is the futbol side (the basketball team for instance doesn't have the same problems). Again I agree with Nick that we need a Sporting director (and that Perez would let him do his job).

4. While I agree that BBC is the prime problem we have (IMO both defensively as well as team offense), James has rightfully been made to fight for his spot. James has not looked good at all this year and it isn't just a case of being played out of position. He is in a battle with Isco and Casemiro for a starting spot. No one should be an automatic starter other than Navas. It's bad enough that we have 2 prima donnas with that entitlement, we don't need another.

5. And finally re Benitez, yes he has screwed up badly in Clasico and Sevilla games and hasn't faired well against big teams (I blame Arbeloa on Atleti game and we had luck in out two PSG games). and yes his man management leaves something to be desired. But you guys have gone to the extreme in criticizing him. You obviously feel it should be Carlo in there, but take a look back at what Carlo did. He persisted in playing only 12, never even bothering to give the backups a chance to get integrated in the team and had balance problems, primarily because of BBC. By end of both seasons he had real issues with over use of several players. His accountability was to win trophies and for that reason alone, as would any executive at any large corporation, had to go. Besides no matter who the coach would be this year, there is no way we would beat the likes of current Barca nor Bayern. Whoever was going to be the coach this year was only getting the one year. The real issue is BBC. While MSN not only is vastly superior to our prima donnas, they enhance their entire team, while our is a detriment, both offensive and defensively. And whose at fault for BBC. One person and one person only - Florentino Perez!!!

by sportsczy Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:23 pm

I disagree with you Bill. Our talent is elite and we should be able to compete against the elite... we played Barca very tough last year although we lost. Their team hasn't changed and neither has ours. So i don't see how we suddenly looked like we didn't belong on the pitch with them unless the manager is that much worse.

The only significant change was Rafa.

And tactically, it was painfully (i mean really painfully) obvious how comically bad the team shape was. Last year, our issues were never team shape. They were:
- Refusing to change the shape although Atleti had figured it out. The shape itself was good. But it wasn't effective against Atleti as Simeone neutralized us by packing the box in a PTB scheme and letting the wide areas completely unmarked.
- Modric getting injured. We went down the toilet in the midfield without him. Would be the same this year if it happened.
- Bale was absolutely atrocious.

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