Re: Ronaldo vs Messi

by Claudio84 Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:10 pm

He's bigger now than he used to be at United, i think that has affected his agility and dribbling skills. he needs to let go of that unnecesary bulk he's carrying these days, his knees would appreciate it

by Harmonica Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:11 pm

Xaviesta+Villa

WC10 champion (Villa Bronze Ball)
Euro 08 champion (Xavi Best Player)
Euro 12 champion (Iniesta Best Player)

Involved collectively 25/32 goals.

Messi @28

WC14 runner-up (Golden Ball)
CA07 runner-up (Best Young Player)
CA15 runner-up (MVP)

Involved in 24/34 goals.

That's a clear indication of team edge.

by Myesyats Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:16 pm

Claudio84 wrote:he needs to let go of that unnecesary bulk he's carrying these days, his knees would appreciate it

Not in this life man... Looks>Health

by Valkyrja Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:20 pm

Harmonica wrote:Xaviesta+Villa

WC10 champion (Villa Bronze Ball)
Euro 08 champion (Xavi Best Player)
Euro 12 champion (Iniesta Best Player)

Involved collectively 25/32 goals.

Messi @28

WC14 runner-up (Golden Ball)
CA07 runner-up (Best Young Player)
CA15 runner-up (MVP)

Involved in 24/34 goals.

That's a clear indication of team edge.

by Claudio84 Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:20 pm

Harmonica wrote:Messi's national career at this point is hardly inferior to anyone:

National career highs:

Messi @28
WC14 runner-up, Golden Ball
CA15 runner-up, MVP
CA07 runner-up, Best Young Player
Olympic Gold, (no individual awards, involved 9/9 goals on the field)
WC05u20 champion, Golden Ball

Ronaldo
WC98 runner-up, Golden Ball
WC02 champion, Silver Ball
CA97 champion, MVP
CA99 champion, -
CC97 champion, -

Pele
WC70 champion, Golden Ball
WC58 champion, Silver Ball
CA59-1 runner-up, MVP

Zidane
WC06 runner-up, Golden Ball
WC98 champion, -
EU00 champion, Best Player

Maradona
WC86 champion, Golden Ball
WC90 runner-up, Bronze Ball
WC79u20 champion, Golden Ball

Cruyff
WC74 runner-up, Golden Ball

Di Stefano
CA47 champion, -

National career lows:

Di Stefano - Failed to qualify with Spain to WC58 with the likes of Gento, Suarez and Kubala
Maradona - Lost 3 games out of 5 in WC82 with defending champions
Pele - Got dumbed out in group-phase in WC66 with defending champions, who won WC62 without him
Zidane - Got dumped out in group-phase in WC02 with defending champions.
Cruyff - Netherlands lost with and won without Cruyff in EU76
Ronaldo - ?
Messi - ?

Maybe vs Jose Nasazzi, but then again who hasn't? Cronaldo however is a national team flop and again completely out of league of others.

Cristiano was runner up with Portugal in Euro 04... Zidane, Ronaldo, Pele and Maradona had better carreers with their nationat team than Messi, Come on now, the only world cup Messi has played relatively well is Brazl 2014 and only in first round with a bunch of scrubs nt, WC 2010 and 2006 were awful, iirc he scored one goal and those world cups.

by Harmonica Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:23 pm

Claudio84 wrote:
Harmonica wrote:Messi's national career at this point is hardly inferior to anyone:

National career highs:

Messi @28
WC14 runner-up, Golden Ball
CA15 runner-up, MVP
CA07 runner-up, Best Young Player
Olympic Gold, (no individual awards, involved 9/9 goals on the field)
WC05u20 champion, Golden Ball

Ronaldo
WC98 runner-up, Golden Ball
WC02 champion, Silver Ball
CA97 champion, MVP
CA99 champion, -
CC97 champion, -

Pele
WC70 champion, Golden Ball
WC58 champion, Silver Ball
CA59-1 runner-up, MVP

Zidane
WC06 runner-up, Golden Ball
WC98 champion, -
EU00 champion, Best Player

Maradona
WC86 champion, Golden Ball
WC90 runner-up, Bronze Ball
WC79u20 champion, Golden Ball

Cruyff
WC74 runner-up, Golden Ball

Di Stefano
CA47 champion, -

National career lows:

Di Stefano - Failed to qualify with Spain to WC58 with the likes of Gento, Suarez and Kubala
Maradona - Lost 3 games out of 5 in WC82 with defending champions
Pele - Got dumbed out in group-phase in WC66 with defending champions, who won WC62 without him
Zidane - Got dumped out in group-phase in WC02 with defending champions.
Cruyff - Netherlands lost with and won without Cruyff in EU76
Ronaldo - ?
Messi - ?

Maybe vs Jose Nasazzi, but then again who hasn't? Cronaldo however is a national team flop and again completely out of league of others.

Cristiano was runner up with Portugal in Euro 04... Zidane, Ronaldo, Pele and Maradona had better carreers with their nationat team than Messi, Come on now, the only world cup Messi has played relatively well is Brazl 2014 and only in first round with a bunch of scrubs nt, WC 2010 and 2006 were awful, iirc he scored one goal and those world cups.

And Zagorakis was chosen the best player of tournament. And none of those players you listed have better nt-career than Messi @28. Messi WC14 was far better performance than anything Zidane, Pele and Ronaldo ever produced in tournaments.

by Harmonica Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:25 pm

Valkyrja wrote:
Harmonica wrote:Xaviesta+Villa

WC10 champion (Villa Bronze Ball)
Euro 08 champion (Xavi Best Player)
Euro 12 champion (Iniesta Best Player)

Involved collectively 25/32 goals.

Messi @28

WC14 runner-up (Golden Ball)
CA07 runner-up (Best Young Player)
CA15 runner-up (MVP)

Involved in 24/34 goals.

That's a clear indication of team edge.

Higuain scored his 1on1 and tap-in, and it's two champion titles. It's a team game, judging players based on team trophies without logical relations and context is stupid as it comes.

by Valkyrja Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:57 pm

Harmonica wrote:
Claudio84 wrote:
Harmonica wrote:Messi's national career at this point is hardly inferior to anyone:

National career highs:

Messi @28
WC14 runner-up, Golden Ball
CA15 runner-up, MVP
CA07 runner-up, Best Young Player
Olympic Gold, (no individual awards, involved 9/9 goals on the field)
WC05u20 champion, Golden Ball

Ronaldo
WC98 runner-up, Golden Ball
WC02 champion, Silver Ball
CA97 champion, MVP
CA99 champion, -
CC97 champion, -

Pele
WC70 champion, Golden Ball
WC58 champion, Silver Ball
CA59-1 runner-up, MVP

Zidane
WC06 runner-up, Golden Ball
WC98 champion, -
EU00 champion, Best Player

Maradona
WC86 champion, Golden Ball
WC90 runner-up, Bronze Ball
WC79u20 champion, Golden Ball

Cruyff
WC74 runner-up, Golden Ball

Di Stefano
CA47 champion, -

National career lows:

Di Stefano - Failed to qualify with Spain to WC58 with the likes of Gento, Suarez and Kubala
Maradona - Lost 3 games out of 5 in WC82 with defending champions
Pele - Got dumbed out in group-phase in WC66 with defending champions, who won WC62 without him
Zidane - Got dumped out in group-phase in WC02 with defending champions.
Cruyff - Netherlands lost with and won without Cruyff in EU76
Ronaldo - ?
Messi - ?

Maybe vs Jose Nasazzi, but then again who hasn't? Cronaldo however is a national team flop and again completely out of league of others.

Cristiano was runner up with Portugal in Euro 04... Zidane, Ronaldo, Pele and Maradona had better carreers with their nationat team than Messi, Come on now, the only world cup Messi has played relatively well is Brazl 2014 and only in first round with a bunch of scrubs nt, WC 2010 and 2006 were awful, iirc he scored one goal and those world cups.
And Zagorakis was chosen the best player of tournament. And none of those players you listed have better nt-career than Messi @28. Messi WC14 was far better performance than anything Zidane, Pele and Ronaldo ever produced in tournaments.

Take a look at Zidane's performance in 00 and 06 and at Ronaldo's in 97,98 and 02, then, take a nap.

by Harmonica Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:59 pm

Valkyrja wrote:
Harmonica wrote:
Claudio84 wrote:

Cristiano was runner up with Portugal in Euro 04... Zidane, Ronaldo, Pele and Maradona had better carreers with their nationat team than Messi, Come on now, the only world cup Messi has played relatively well is Brazl 2014 and only in first round with a bunch of scrubs nt, WC 2010 and 2006 were awful, iirc he scored one goal and those world cups.
And Zagorakis was chosen the best player of tournament. And none of those players you listed have better nt-career than Messi @28. Messi WC14 was far better performance than anything Zidane, Pele and Ronaldo ever produced in tournaments.

Take a look at Zidane's performance in 00 and 06 and at Ronaldo's in 97,98 and 02, then, take a nap.

Already did with pretty complete logical relations documented in this thread: http://www.goallegacy.net/t36526p126-most-controversial-world-cup-golden-ball-s-since-1966 Which is actually just overall view of the whole round by round comparison.

World Cup performance index, considering statistics, the best (and worst) plays, importance and relation of quality of opposition and own team. Color highlighted as golden, silver, bronze ball, or not in Top 3.

1.
Maradona 86
Messi 14
3.
Kempes 78
4.
Jairzinho 70
5.
Robben 14
Cruyff 74
7.
Forlan 10
8.
Romario 94
9.
Eusebio 66
Pele 70
Rossi 82
12.
Schillaci 90
Suker 98
14.
Ronaldo 02
Charlton 66
16.
Ronaldo 98
17.
Zidane 06

Maybe you should actually watch those tournaments and stop believing myths?

by rwo power Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:30 pm

Harmonica wrote:Well that was comparison of all-time level players. And none of players you listed will compare with Messi @28 when you consider individual importance and team success.

What about Gerd Müller?

by Harmonica Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:31 pm

rwo power wrote:
Harmonica wrote:Well that was comparison of all-time level players. And none of players you listed will compare with Messi @28 when you consider individual importance and team success.
What about Gerd Müller?

G.Muller is at the same level at least in importance, but I've yet to watch his full performance's.

by Valkyrja Thu Nov 05, 2015 9:16 pm

Harmonica wrote:
rwo power wrote:
Harmonica wrote:Well that was comparison of all-time level players. And none of players you listed will compare with Messi @28 when you consider individual importance and team success.
What about Gerd Müller?
G.Muller is at the same level at least in importance, but I've yet to watch his full performance's.

by jibers Thu Nov 05, 2015 9:29 pm

Ronaldo is several levels below Messi. Several. The comparison for me has always been strange. The only area CR is better at is his jumping and heading ability. That is the only area of his game that stands up to any of the elites of the game.

The fact that his all round level has dropped and Messi's has gone up makes the comparisons even stranger. Neymar is already better than Ronaldo in my eyes, all versions.

by Clutch Thu Nov 05, 2015 9:30 pm

This harmonica guy is a troll right? Have yet to see him break character hmm

by Lucifer Thu Nov 05, 2015 9:34 pm

Clutch wrote:This harmonica guy is a troll right? Have yet to see him break character

run bro ruuuun

by futbol Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:20 pm

Ronaldo for me. hmm

by FennecFox7 Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:00 pm

Claudio84 wrote:He's bigger now than he used to be at United, i think that has affected his agility and dribbling skills. he needs to let go of that unnecesary bulk he's carrying these days, his knees would appreciate it

not true at all.

by Bankz Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:42 am

Harmonica wrote:Messi's national career at this point is hardly inferior to anyone:

National career highs:

Messi @28
WC14 runner-up, Golden Ball
CA15 runner-up, MVP
CA07 runner-up, Best Young Player
Olympic Gold, (no individual awards, involved 9/9 goals on the field)
WC05u20 champion, Golden Ball

Ronaldo
WC98 runner-up, Golden Ball
WC02 champion, Silver Ball
CA97 champion, MVP
CA99 champion, -
CC97 champion, -

Pele
WC70 champion, Golden Ball
WC58 champion, Silver Ball
CA59-1 runner-up, MVP

Zidane
WC06 runner-up, Golden Ball
WC98 champion, -
EU00 champion, Best Player

Maradona
WC86 champion, Golden Ball
WC90 runner-up, Bronze Ball
WC79u20 champion, Golden Ball

Cruyff
WC74 runner-up, Golden Ball

Di Stefano
CA47 champion, -

National career lows:

Di Stefano - Failed to qualify with Spain to WC58 with the likes of Gento, Suarez and Kubala
Maradona - Lost 3 games out of 5 in WC82 with defending champions
Pele - Got dumbed out in group-phase in WC66 with defending champions, who won WC62 without him
Zidane - Got dumped out in group-phase in WC02 with defending champions.
Cruyff - Netherlands lost with and won without Cruyff in EU76
Ronaldo - ?
Messi - ?

Maybe vs Jose Nasazzi, but then again who hasn't? Cronaldo however is a national team flop and again completely out of league of others.

Lol, the fraud lying as usual to make messi seem close to them.. For instance he ommited R9's 99 copa america Golden boot award, he also omitted R9's world cup Golden boot award in 02. So, R9's CV is more like
Ronaldo
WC98 runner-up - Golden Ball, Silver Boot
WC02 CHAMPION - Silver Ball, Top Scorer
CA97 CHAMPION - MVP,
CA99 CHAMPION - TOP Scorer, Silver ball
CC97 CHAMPION - Silver boot
CONMEBOL 05 Qualifiers - Top Scorer

God knows how many others he's omitted their stats just to make messi look good. Btw, lol at putting up olympic accolades in comparision with actual honours that matter..

by El Messico Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:45 am

Valkyrja wrote:
Curtinho wrote:I think people are still a bit jaded with what Ronaldo has become versus what he used to be.

I mean, he's still a great player now but he was a far more complete (and less selfish) player when he was at United. I think when we're stacking him up in terms of his ability against other players it should be to look at his peak years.

Didn't he have to change his style of play because of his knees? I mean look at this:

How often does he play like this anymore?

He was much more selfish at United. Just watch the 09 CL final. You don't see him shooting from that absurd angles all the time anymore. It was quite clear that he would become the player he has been for 5 years in 07-08. And he wasn't more complete at United, but more flashy. He cut out most of the useless tricks after Mourinho's arrival.

Yeah I see a lot of revisionism on the internet regarding the Man Utd Ronaldo. I was mainly watching EPL until Euro 2008 because of television rights, so I've basically followed every single year of Ronaldo's career since he came to United. He is a much better player at Madrid than he was at United.

At United he was just a complete ball-hog making poor decisions on the wing all the time. Yeah he dribbled more, but the vast majority were completely useless. In any case, I would highligh 06/07 as his best dribbling season, he had a chip on his shoulder ever since that wink incident against England.

IMO his best seasons, in order, are 2011/12, 2012/13 and then 2007/08. Unfortunately for him, his time in Madrid coincided with the best-ever Barca side.

by El Messico Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:49 am

Bankz wrote:
Harmonica wrote:Messi's national career at this point is hardly inferior to anyone:

National career highs:

Messi @28
WC14 runner-up, Golden Ball
CA15 runner-up, MVP
CA07 runner-up, Best Young Player
Olympic Gold, (no individual awards, involved 9/9 goals on the field)
WC05u20 champion, Golden Ball

Ronaldo
WC98 runner-up, Golden Ball
WC02 champion, Silver Ball
CA97 champion, MVP
CA99 champion, -
CC97 champion, -

Pele
WC70 champion, Golden Ball
WC58 champion, Silver Ball
CA59-1 runner-up, MVP

Zidane
WC06 runner-up, Golden Ball
WC98 champion, -
EU00 champion, Best Player

Maradona
WC86 champion, Golden Ball
WC90 runner-up, Bronze Ball
WC79u20 champion, Golden Ball

Cruyff
WC74 runner-up, Golden Ball

Di Stefano
CA47 champion, -

National career lows:

Di Stefano - Failed to qualify with Spain to WC58 with the likes of Gento, Suarez and Kubala
Maradona - Lost 3 games out of 5 in WC82 with defending champions
Pele - Got dumbed out in group-phase in WC66 with defending champions, who won WC62 without him
Zidane - Got dumped out in group-phase in WC02 with defending champions.
Cruyff - Netherlands lost with and won without Cruyff in EU76
Ronaldo - ?
Messi - ?

Maybe vs Jose Nasazzi, but then again who hasn't? Cronaldo however is a national team flop and again completely out of league of others.
Lol, the fraud lying as usual to make messi seem close to them.. For instance he ommited R9's 99 copa america Golden boot award, he also omitted R9's world cup Golden boot award in 02. So, R9's CV is more like
Ronaldo
WC98 runner-up - Golden Ball, Silver Boot
WC02 CHAMPION - Silver Ball, Top Scorer
CA97 CHAMPION - MVP,
CA99 CHAMPION - TOP Scorer, Silver ball
CC97 CHAMPION - Silver boot
CONMEBOL 05 Qualifiers - Top Scorer
Olympics 96 3rd place - Joint top scorer

God knows how many others he's omitted their stats just to make messi look good. Btw, lol at putting up olympic accolades in comparision with actual honours that matter..

I didn't watch Zidane and Ronaldo at their best, but I think Messi is better than both even without the national team accolades to match their haul. I'd even say that those 2 are not even that close to Messi overall as is made out. Also, Zidane 06 is hugely overrated on the internet because of a brilliant game against Brazil.

Of all the players I've watched live at one point or another, I'd rank them as:

Messi
Ronaldo
Xavi
Cristiano Ronaldo
Zidane and Iniesta
Ronaldinho
Kaka

by Bankz Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:56 am

What I was talking about was successful NT careers not who's better overall and as successful NT career goas R9 and Zidane are in a league of their own. Ironically, those games like those against brazil and Ronaldo's game against holland, chile, and germany are games messi will never have in his international career..

Btw, In my mind pre injury R9 is a better player and bigger talent than messi ever was..

by El Messico Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:59 am

I didn't watch pre-injury R9 outside of highlights but I find it hard to believe that a striker has as much overall talent and impact as Messi. It's hard to comprehend but, as Michael Cox says, Messi is 3 world-class players in one.

by Harmonica Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:34 am

Bankz wrote:
Harmonica wrote:Messi's national career at this point is hardly inferior to anyone:

National career highs:

Messi @28
WC14 runner-up, Golden Ball
CA15 runner-up, MVP
CA07 runner-up, Best Young Player
Olympic Gold, (no individual awards, involved 9/9 goals on the field)
WC05u20 champion, Golden Ball

Ronaldo
WC98 runner-up, Golden Ball
WC02 champion, Silver Ball
CA97 champion, MVP
CA99 champion, -
CC97 champion, -

Pele
WC70 champion, Golden Ball
WC58 champion, Silver Ball
CA59-1 runner-up, MVP

Zidane
WC06 runner-up, Golden Ball
WC98 champion, -
EU00 champion, Best Player

Maradona
WC86 champion, Golden Ball
WC90 runner-up, Bronze Ball
WC79u20 champion, Golden Ball

Cruyff
WC74 runner-up, Golden Ball

Di Stefano
CA47 champion, -

National career lows:

Di Stefano - Failed to qualify with Spain to WC58 with the likes of Gento, Suarez and Kubala
Maradona - Lost 3 games out of 5 in WC82 with defending champions
Pele - Got dumbed out in group-phase in WC66 with defending champions, who won WC62 without him
Zidane - Got dumped out in group-phase in WC02 with defending champions.
Cruyff - Netherlands lost with and won without Cruyff in EU76
Ronaldo - ?
Messi - ?

Maybe vs Jose Nasazzi, but then again who hasn't? Cronaldo however is a national team flop and again completely out of league of others.
Lol, the fraud lying as usual to make messi seem close to them.. For instance he ommited R9's 99 copa america Golden boot award, he also omitted R9's world cup Golden boot award in 02. So, R9's CV is more like
Ronaldo
WC98 runner-up - Golden Ball, Silver Boot
WC02 CHAMPION - Silver Ball, Top Scorer
CA97 CHAMPION - MVP,
CA99 CHAMPION - TOP Scorer, Silver ball
CC97 CHAMPION - Silver boot
CONMEBOL 05 Qualifiers - Top Scorer

God knows how many others he's omitted their stats just to make messi look good. Btw, lol at putting up olympic accolades in comparision with actual honours that matter..

What kind of stupidity are you? Top scorer is part of the best player, it's like me saying Messi was the top dribbler in every single tournament. rofl

by El Messico Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:37 am

Just to substantiate that 3 players-in-one statement, a video from just 1 season:

Just unbelievable. There is nothing he can't do in the attacking aspect of the game.

by Claudio84 Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:15 am

Bankz wrote:What I was talking about was successful NT careers not who's better overall and as successful NT career goas R9 and Zidane are in a league of their own. Ironically, those games like those against brazil and Ronaldo's game against holland, chile, and germany are games messi will never have in his international career..

Btw, In my mind pre injury R9 is a better player and bigger talent than messi ever was..

Agreed.

by The Demon of Carthage Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:02 pm

Being runner-up is now considered a trophy? That's just sad.

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