Messi vs Zidane at the highest level of int football

He scored 8 goals in 55 caps for France....  for a CF.  People made fun of Dugarry in France because the rumor was that he only made the team because he was one of ZIdane's best friends.  Guivarc'h, the other starting CF during the 1998-2000 period, had 1 goal in 14 caps.  He made the team during the 1997 year, became a started in 1998 and was gone for good in 1999 lol.

Really too bad Anelka was such an idiot.  They actually wanted to start him in 1999 after his breakout season but he made everyone mad on NT pretty quickly looool.  Got 10 caps and 2 goals though but the job could have been his.  Got a double in a friendly against England in that period and that was it.

So the 3 main CFs from 1997 until 2000 had a total of 79 caps and scored a grand total of 11 goals looooooooooool.

come on, there's no argument, dugarry was garbage, i don't know how he was in ligue un, but in england, spain italy, and the french team, he was crap, couldn't cut through a wet paper bag with scissors in his hand. even in 98, i was surprised the french team didn't still take papin, who had passed his sell by date by then. henry and trezeguet where still very new to me, i'm sure they were making names for themselves in france, but at that time, i didn't really know that

as far as the zidane messi thing i don't know, i never thought of such a comparison. the truth is, france in 98 had a better midfield and defense imo. argentina has a good team and whether anyone likes it or not, they've underachieved, considering they've got the best footballer in the word and some good players across the board. their defense in terms of personnel isn't all that, but one can say defensively, in the last two tournaments, their defense has actually outperformed their creativity....its just a weird comparison that gets into "who had more help", which in turn gets into fans either overrating average players to suggest the player they like had help, or disrespecting good players to claim the player they like had NO help....and we run around in circles yet again

Harmonica wrote:

sportsczy wrote:And you think the WC best player award was legit I assume

And you don't? The baguette goes into stomach, not in the brain.

James, Robben and Neuer. They had a better WC than Messi. If you truly believe his best player of the tournament award was legit then you're seriously biased beyond recognition.

As for the thread itself, it's laughable, really. Messi's international career is NOTHING compared to Zidane's. It's actually quite embarrassing the way you try to justify his legendary flopping.

Now we're trying to make being a "runner-up" look like a freaking trophy? Jesus Christ man, have some self-respect.

The Demon of Carthage wrote:
James, Robben and Neuer. They had a better WC than Messi. If you truly believe his best player of the tournament award was legit then you're seriously biased beyond recognition.

As for the thread itself, it's laughable, really. Messi's international career is NOTHING compared to Zidane's. It's actually quite embarrassing the way you try to justify his legendary flopping.

Now we're trying to make being a "runner-up" look like a freaking trophy? Jesus Christ man, have some self-respect.

That's a statement, not an argument. Learn how to argue your opinion if you want a serious answer from me.

FennecFox7 wrote:and how do we know you are using opta? prove it. its that simple

also using tackles to display superiority of a player. jesus christ save me from this stupidity. i think we should compare xavi to de jong in 2010. hey guys, de jong had more tackles. he was a way more dominang player!!

With one link I could provide the source, but you don't actually deserve that. You wouldn't have to question them if you think they don't matter.

Those 4 statistics are the most important statistics.

Goals - How much player provided attacking quality
Chances Created - How much player provided playmaking quality
Dribbles - How much player provided advancing play
Tackling - How much player provided defending quality

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC14

4 - 23 - 46 - 9 - Messi
5 - 17 - 12 - 7 - Müller
3 - 17 - 34 - 2 - Robben
6 - 11 - 15 - 6 - James

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC10

5 - 17 - 7 - 0 - Forlan
5 - 11 - 9 - 4 - Sneijder
5 - 13 - 11 - 1 - Villa
0 - 30 - 10 - 9 - Xavi
0 - 16 - 34 - 7 - Messi

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC06

3 - 12 - 15 - 4 - Zidane
5 - 15 - 8 - 8 - Klose
3 - 12 - 20 - 1 - Henry
1 - 24 - 11 - 17 - Pirlo

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC02

x - x - x - x - Kahn
8 - 13 - 11 - 4 - Ronaldo
5 - 13 - 14 - 7 - Rivaldo
1 - 24 - 7 - 17 - Schneider

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC98

4 - 7 - 16 - 3 - Ronaldo
6 - 9 - 15 - 6 - Suker
3 - 18 - 17 - 6 - Rivaldo
2 - 19 - 20 - 10 - De Boer

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC94

5 - 8 - 25 - 1 - Romario
5 - 12 - 14 - 10 - Baggio
6 - 6 - 14 - 7 - Stoichkov
3 - 18 - 17 - 11 - Brolin

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC90

6 - 8 - 9 - 2 - Schillaci
4 - 21 - 22 - 22 - Matthaus
3 - 24 - 3 - 17 - Brehme

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC86

5 - 27 - 53 - 11 - Maradona
5 - 18 - 9 - 3 - Careca
6 - 3 - 2 - 1 - Lineker

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC82

6 - 14 - 10 - 2 - Rossi
4 - 18 - 13 - 5 - Boniek
3 - 8 - 10 - 15 - Falcao
3 - 24 - 17 - 5 - Giresse

No stats for Rummenigge.

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC78

6 - 18 - 43 - 5 - Kempes
5 - 15 - 19 - 8 - Rensenbrink
2 - 19 - 10 - 24 - Haan

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC74

3 - 36 - 33 - 9 - Cruyff
3 - 30 - 23 - 17 - Deyna
7 - 13 - 8 - 14 - Lato

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC70

4 - 28 - 16 - 9 - Pele
7 - 13 - 47 - 4 - Jairzinho
10 - 14 - 4 - 0 - Gerd Müller

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC66

3 - 18 - 15 - 15 - Charlton
9 - 10 - 35 - 10 - Eusebio
4 - 9 - 22 - 17 - Beckenbauer

The least controversial World Cup Golden Ball, based on most important statistics:

1. Maradona 86
2. Kempes 78
3. Messi 14
4. Cruyff 74
5. Romario 94
6. Rossi 82
7. Forlan 10
8. Pele 70
9. Schillaci 90
10. Charlton 66
11. Ronaldo 98
12. Zidane 06
13. Kahn 02

Zidane had more success, based ironically on title statistics, but performance wise he isn't even remotely close of Messi with NT.

Messi WC14



4 goals from 3 great scoring chances
17 great scoring chances created
46 players beaten by dribble (OPTA)
11 tackles (OPTA)

Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)
7 (4 + 1 + 2) out of 8 team goals =  88% importance (+1 SO goal)

Goals Scored
Bosnia And Hertzegovina 1
Iran 1
Nigeria 1
Nigeria 2

Great Scoring Chances Missed
Belgium 1
Germany 1

Great Chances Greated
Bosnia 1
Bosnia 2
Bosnia 3
Iran 1
Nigeria 1
Nigeria 2
Switzerland 1
Switzerland 2
Switzerland 3
Switzerland 4
Belgium 1
Belgium 2
Belgium 3
Netherlands 1
Netherlands 2
Netherlands 3
Germany 1

Zidane WC06



3 goals from 6 great scoring chances
10 great scoring chances created
15 players beaten by dribble (OPTA)
4 tackles (OPTA)

Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)
5 (3 (2p) + 1 + 1) out of 9 team goals =  56% importance

Goals Scored
Spain 1
Portugal 1
Italy 1

Great Scoring Chances Missed
Brazil 1
Portugal 1
Italy 1

Great Chances Created
Switzerland 1
Switzerland 2
South Korea 1
South Korea 2
Spain 1
Brazil 1
Brazil 2
Brazil 3
Brazil 4
Italy 1

From the performance's I've watched, Zidane 06 is easily the least impressive:

- He coasted group phase, France tied twice with him and won crucially without him.
- Excluding the penalties he didn't create, scored only one goal from open play when the game was almost done an dusted.
- For a playmaker didn't create as much, only registered 12 chances created which is a lot less than other playmakers Cruyff 74 (36), Pele 70 (28), Maradona 86 (27), Messi 14 (23). Again watching the games confirm what statistics already pointed.
- The red card incident just about is the cherry on a hype crusted and half hollow cake.

Harmonica wrote:

From the performance's I've watched, Zidane 06 is easily the least impressive:

- He coasted group phase, France tied twice with him and won crucially without him.
- Excluding the penalties he didn't create, scored only one goal from open play when the game was almost done an dusted.
- For a playmaker didn't create as much, only registered 12 chances created which is a lot less than other playmakers Cruyff 74 (36), Pele 70 (28), Maradona 86 (27), Messi 14 (23). Again watching the games confirm what statistics already pointed.
- The red card incident just about is the cherry on a hype crusted and half hollow cake.

What kind of human being counts the number of chances created by a player during a game of football ?

@valk. Lol, tought i was the only one thinking it too. Whats even worse is those involved and great chances stats, in some cases wide assists. Now tell me, how ridiculous can it be?

Valkyrja wrote:

Harmonica wrote:

From the performance's I've watched, Zidane 06 is easily the least impressive:

- He coasted group phase, France tied twice with him and won crucially without him.
- Excluding the penalties he didn't create, scored only one goal from open play when the game was almost done an dusted.
- For a playmaker didn't create as much, only registered 12 chances created which is a lot less than other playmakers Cruyff 74 (36), Pele 70 (28), Maradona 86 (27), Messi 14 (23). Again watching the games confirm what statistics already pointed.
- The red card incident just about is the cherry on a hype crusted and half hollow cake.

What kind of human being counts the number of chances created by a player during a game of football ?

The one who actually wants the relative and logical truth, rather than sheeping generalizations of the deluded mass. Those are actually OPTA-stats, my "great chance's" are counted above, with the actual video evidence.

But there's nothing logical or rational about it.
You just SAY these are the 4 most important stats. You don't provide any kind of evidence.

You have Dunning-Kruger perchance? I think you do.

That's not an argument, but a statement, if you want me take you seriously, learn how to argue.

I already argued why they are the most important statistics, furthermore they are the top 4 factors described of great players generally.

What makes you think I want to argue with you? Are you really not even capable of understanding a post THAT simple? Really?

You're in this thread, you can leave with that attitude, there's a lot of ignorant threads there for you.

Zidane :
3 goals in world cup final .
Messi :
0 KO stage goals in 3 world cups .

Harmonica wrote:You're in this thread, you can leave with that attitude, there's a lot of ignorant threads there for you.

Or I could stay

farfan wrote:Zidane :
3 goals in world cup final .
Messi :
0  KO stage goals in 3 world cups .

France carried Zidane to World Cup final, where he stole all the credit, Messi carried Argentina to World Cup final where he lost all the credit.

Official MoM

WC06 France run

Group 1 Makelele
Group 2 Ji-Sung
Group 3 Vieira
R16 Vieira
QF Zidane
SF Thuram
Final Pirlo

Total 1 MoM, 1/5 of France or 20%

WC14 Argentina run

Group 1 Messi
Group 2 Messi
Group 3 Messi
R16 Messi
QF Higuain
SF Romero
Final Götze

Total 4 MoM, 4/6 of Argentina or 67%

Everywhere you watch you see the same conclusion.

Messi Carried Argentina

a solid defensive bloc and grinding out narrow wins that Messi had very little to do with post the second round carried Argentina .

Messi was man of the match vs Bosnia ,Nigeria and Iran ? how can zidane's matches against Brazil in 1998 and 2006 , spain and portugal in euro 2000 compare to such lofty standards ?

lmao @ "lofty standards" good one

It's a well documented fact that Messi can only stand out when he has at least 2 more top 5 players in the world alongside him. 4 years in a row when he won the Ballon d'Or Xavi and Iniesta were top 5 in the Ballon d'Or rankings. The moment Xavi in particular dropped off post 2012, Messi lost out 2 seasons in a row to Ronaldo and the talks of "decline" started. Now that Barca has bought 2 top 5 players in the world again in Neymar and Suarez to carry Messi, Messi is walking the individual awards again but, as usual, keeps flopping when he has to play with Argentina because there is no Neymar or Suarez to make the difference. System player who needs all-time great support cast. For that reason all-time top 10 - 15 at best.

:)

futbol wrote:It's a well documented fact that Messi can only stand out when he has at least 2 more top 5 players in the world alongside him. 4 years in a row when he won the Ballon d'Or Xavi and Iniesta were top 5 in the Ballon d'Or rankings. The moment Xavi in particular dropped off post 2012, Messi lost out 2 seasons in a row to Ronaldo and the talks of "decline" started. Now that Barca has bought 2 top 5 players in the world again in Neymar and Suarez to carry Messi, Messi is walking the individual awards again but, as usual, keeps flopping when he has to play with Argentina because there is no Neymar or Suarez to make the difference. System player who needs all-time great support cast. For that reason all-time top 10 - 15 at best.

this sarcastic post doesn't exactly make a case for Messi being better than Zidane in the NT stage.

The irony of quoting "on paper" strength to what actually happened on the field.

What next, learning how good players were from a book? Oh wait...

If they're opta stats that are free, he could link them.  He won't (that should tell you enough ).  If he says  he pays for them and can't link, he can make a still pic of a opta search either online or on one of their widgets.  I paid for opta for a bit and it's very expensive.  I know what things should look like.

If he refuses to post any proof whatsoever....  Well.

futbol wrote:It's a well documented fact that Messi can only stand out when he has at least 2 more top 5 players in the world alongside him. 4 years in a row when he won the Ballon d'Or Xavi and Iniesta were top 5 in the Ballon d'Or rankings. The moment Xavi in particular dropped off post 2012, Messi lost out 2 seasons in a row to Ronaldo and the talks of "decline" started. Now that Barca has bought 2 top 5 players in the world again in Neymar and Suarez to carry Messi, Messi is walking the individual awards again but, as usual, keeps flopping when he has to play with Argentina because there is no Neymar or Suarez to make the difference. System player who needs all-time great support cast. For that reason all-time top 10 - 15 at best.

Too late.    

OP:

Harmonica wrote:
Xaviesta+Villa

WC10 champion (Villa Bronze Ball, EU08/WC10 9+1+2)
Euro08 champion (Xavi Best Player, EU08/12/WC10 1+6+9)
Euro12 champion (Iniesta Best Player, EU08/12/WC10 2+4+8 )

Involved collectively 25/32 goals.

Messi @28

WC14 runner-up (Golden Ball, 4+1+2)
CA07 runner-up (Best Young Player, 2+3+3)
CA15 runner-up (MVP, 1+3+6)

Involved in 25/34 goals.

Spanish national team had a club edge forming players from two teams mostly, and also a tactical edge. Germany has been similar without the general tactical edge, silver/bronze/gold run, most player from Bundesliga knowing each other well and working in well oiled system. Argentina hasn't had familiarity edge nor tactical edge, with players flying to NT from all over the world, constantly changing coaches and tactics. They've had Messi though. In club football familiarity and tactical edges aren't nearly as important, quality of the players is.

sportsczy wrote:If they're opta stats that are free, he could link them.  He won't (that should tell you enough ).  If he says  he pays for them and can't link, he can make a still pic of a opta search either online or on one of their widgets.  I paid for opta for a bit and it's very expensive.  I know what things should look like.

If he refuses to post any proof whatsoever....  Well.

Already linked Dr. Watson.