Messi vs Zidane at the highest level of int football

FennecFox7 wrote:think you should post some sources for your stats. after all you have a tendency to bullshit. lets not forget when messi had 9 dispossessions and you made it look like he lost the ball once

Matches, that's the source. Added the rest.

Messi @28

Competition Team Individual
Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)

WC14 runner-up Golden Ball
7 (4 + 1 + 2) out of 8 team goals, or 88% importance (+1 SO goal)
CA15 runner-up Most Valuable Player
10 (1 (1p) + 3 + 6) out of 10 team goals, or 100% importance (+2 SO goals)
CA07 runner-up Best Young Player
8 (2 + 3 + 3) out of 16 team goals, or 50% importance
OL08 gold
9 (2 + 3 + 4) out of 11 team goals, or 82% importance
WC05 u20 champion Golden Ball
9 (6 (2p) + 2 + 1) out of 12 team goals, or 75% importance

Total
43 (15 (3p) + 12 + 16) out of 57 team goals, or 75% importance (+3 SO goals)
Total Senior
25 (7 (1p) + 7 + 11) out of 34 team goals, or 74% importance (+3 SO goals)

Zidane Career

Competition Team Individual
Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)

WC06 runner-up Golden Ball
5 (3 (2p) + 1 + 1) out of 9 team goals, or 56% importance
EU00 champion Best Player
6 (2 + 1 + 3) out of 13 team goals, or 46% importance
WC98 champions -
4 (2 + 1 + 1) out of 15 team goals, or 27% importance (+1 SO goal)

Total
15 (7 (2p) + 3 + 5) out of 37 team goals, or 41% importance (+1 SO goal)

sportsczy wrote:

LeBéninois wrote:@Sports Messi has been great with his NT. Better than any french player since Zidane who had amazing players around him and played in a very balanced team. Messi is easily at Zidane's level for his NT (let's not get into technicalities ). The difference ? Well the teammate. In the 2006 WC Henry scored 2 goals ( 1 against Brazil ) + won a penalty for his team. What have Aguero done ? the others strikers
Many people are wanking over Argentina striking force but at the end of the day Messi has to play as an AM or even deeper. Just go back and watch Palacio and Higuain miss, that's criminal especially Palacio's.

Did you see the strikers Zidane had in 1998.  Guivarc'h lol.  And from day 1 until he retired, France played with 2 DMs and gave Zidane 100% of the creative duties...  that's the reason France was about to miss WC qualification for 2006 when Zidane took a 1 year hiatus.  They had no creative threat without him.  Heck, the team fell apart in WC 2002 when he got injured in the last prep game before the tournament and couldn't play in the first 2 games and played at 50% in the 3rd one.

You can't compare.  France looked average without him during that entire golden era and the results bear that out despite all the superstars.  They fell apart once he retired for good too.  

Again is this a joke?  How can you not compare.  Messi has 100% of the creative duties for Argentina and even has to play out of position to do so.  Why do you think they played Biglia and Mascherano behind Messi???  For creativity, LOL.

Again, it's like you don't understand the way Argentina set there team up in the world cup.  What your saying about Zidane is exactly the same for Messi except Messi was asked to do even more.

I don't know why you get so caught up with the names on the backs of the shirts for Argentina's strikers.  If they are performing at an atrocious level, who cares who they are.  They couldn't hit the broad side of a barn in the world cup.

Lol at comparing Messi and Zidane's international careers .
France 1996-2006 frequently yoyoed betxeen being the best team in the world and an average NT depending on Zidane's health and form.

France was so stacked that they hardly missed Zidane when the likes of Micoud and Dhorasso filled in for an extended period of time right ? Oh wait ,its the other way around.....

And apparently , Guivarc'h and Dugarry (started Euro 2000) were much more formidable teammates than the likes of Aguero

zidane still played much deeper then messi. messi is a forward with argentina, he is not an attacking midfielder. i want some other stats, such as number of dispossessions, failed forward passes, balls lost in dangerous areas,final pass success

Harmonica wrote:

FennecFox7 wrote:think you should post some sources for your stats. after all you have a tendency to bullshit. lets not forget when messi had 9 dispossessions and you made it look like he lost the ball once

Matches, that's the source. Added the rest.

Messi @28

Competition Team Individual
Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)

WC14 runner-up Golden Ball
7 (4 + 1 + 2) out of 8 team goals, or 88% importance (+1 SO goal)
CA15 runner-up Most Valuable Player
10 (1 (1p) + 3 + 6) out of 10 team goals, or 100% importance (+2 SO goals)
CA07 runner-up Best Young Player
8 (2 + 3 + 3) out of 16 team goals, or 50% importance
OL08 gold
9 (2 + 3 + 4) out of 11 team goals, or 82% importance
WC05 u20 champion Golden Ball
9 (6 (2p) + 2 + 1) out of 12 team goals, or 75% importance

Total
43 (15 (3p) + 12 + 16) out of 57 team goals, or 75% importance (+3 SO goals)
Total Senior
25 (7 (1p) + 7 + 11) out of 34 team goals, or 74% importance (+3 SO goals)

Zidane Career

Competition Team Individual
Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)

WC06 runner-up Golden Ball
5 (3 (2p) + 1 + 1) out of 9 team goals, or 56% importance
EU00 champion Best Player
6 (2 + 1 + 3) out of 13 team goals, or 46% importance
WC98 champions -
4 (2 + 1 + 1) out of 15 team goals, or 27% importance (+1 SO goal)

Total
15 (7 (2p) + 3 + 5) out of 37 team goals, or 41% importance (+1 SO goal)

FennecFox7 wrote:zidane still played much deeper then messi. messi is a forward with argentina, he is not an attacking midfielder. i want some other stats, such as number of dispossessions, failed forward passes, balls lost in dangerous areas,final pass success

This is false and again just showing a lack of tactical understanding.  Messi is not a forward when Playing for Argentina.  If he's a forward who's the attacking mid?  Masche?  Biglia? Di Maria who's a winger.  

Messi plays in the middle and Kun and Higgy play in front of him it's so obvious.  Yes, Messi gets forward at times as he is the best player in the world and if all things were equal and they had a great attacking midfielder he would be a forward but that's not the case.

Perfect example is take a look at the goals they scored against Mexico.  Messi set the first goal up from 10 feet behind midfield and the second he got up field and scored because there was space to run into.

Do you see Kun setting up a lot of goals behind midfield? No because tactically he's not supposed to be there when they counter he's supposed to get his ass up field as quick as possible and it's Messi's job to link the play.

He is not a forward when playing for Argentina.

Zidane isn't close to Messi so please stop comparing the two. Messi is better in every single aspect.

How delusional some of you have to be to actually think that Messi's international career could be compared to Maradona's and zidane's?
Do you think stats such as '' number of goals involved in '' and excuses like '' Messi played with subpar talent '' will stand the test of time ?
.

farfan wrote:How delusional some of you have to be to actually think that Messi's international career could be compared to Maradona's and zidane's?
Do you think stats  such as '' number of goals involved in '' and excuses like '' Messi played with subpar talent '' will stand the test of time ?
.

No one has said he had sub par talent.  

I would argue that Argentina is one of the most talented teams in the world but the squad selected to the world cup had massive flaws all over the place from Keeper to defenders to Midfield all which Messi made up for and ultimately would have won if his strikers put in half a shift a game.

Whats been said is the talent he plays with choked, on really an amazing level in the world cup.

It angers certain people (people who understand football) when someone says Messi plays with the most talented team in the world and can't produce at the highest level (such an absurd statement).

Again, below is what choking looks like and not being able to step up at the highest level.  And yes these are stats (I know there evil and you probably think there misrepresenting something) but these are strikers and forwards.  I think it's fair to judge them on there goals scored or lack there of since that is there job for gods sake.

Kun Aguero- Played 5 games in the world cup scored 0 goals with 0 assists.
Higuain- Started all 7 games and had 1 goal
Ezequiel Lavezzi - Played 6 of the 7 games and scored 0 goals
Rodrigo Palacio- played 5 of the 7 games usually as a sub around the 70 minute mark to be fair and scored 0 goals.
Di Maria- Played 5 games and had 1 goal 0 assists (since he was supposed to be a creative outlet for the team)

And Messi who again is playing in an attacking Midfield role, let's see his production.

Messi- played all 7 games with 4 goals and an assist not to mention creating other goals he didn't get assist credit for.

A world cup where people kind of forget Argentina won every single game except the final in which they took to extra time and were flat out beaten by a better more organized team yet they had every chance to win if certain people did there jobs to even half of what there capable of.

As for standing the test of time, let's be honest here.  For whatever reason no one cares about the Copa America. I love it and think it's a grinding mans game of a tournament which is rarely seen anymore.  That being said had Argentina won it, people wouldn't care, they would still say well Messi hasn't won a World Cup.

He's going to go down as the leading goal scorer and assist man in Argentina's history.  He will have dragged them to a World Cup and Copa America final as well as an Olympic gold medal and that is at 28 years of age (he still needs a couple years for the scoring records).

And he's going to have 2 more cracks at the world cup while also being far and away the best club footballer to ever play and holding every single scoring and assisting record in Europe.

Yes, for some crazy reason I think that will "stand the test of time".

Dnmac wrote:I would argue that Argentina is one of the most talented teams in the world but the squad selected to the world cup had massive flaws all over the place from Keeper to defenders to Midfield all which Messi made up for and ultimately would have won if his strikers put in half a shift a game.

Please. What flaws did we have in defense? What flaws did we have in GK? These were not the reasons we lost the WC or the CA, however much they have weaknesses on paper they played very well throughout both competitions.

We lost the WC because our forwards either failed to show up (due to injury or poor form) or messed their golden chances (Palacio and Higuain missed their chances for goal in the final, but so did Messi). We also lost the WC because we had a coach whose attacking strategy was "pass the ball to Messi and hope for the best", there was no attacking structure and the called up players were not up for it.

We lost the CA because once again our forwards failed to show up (I completely agree that Aguero gets a free pass on both while Higgy has become Tevez circa 2011), our coach had the strategic intuition of a sponge and because our team failed to take advantage of the penta-marking on Messi at all times.

But don't blame one of the few things about this team that worked, and it worked well enough to get us into two finals, a steel strong defense and structure and a GK that, while not the best in the world, played a very sollid 11 games (well, 10, if we include the penalties of the CA...).

BC.... i actually thought defense carried Argentina NT. I didn't want to say it because i didn't feel like receiving all the grief. Thanks for speaking up my man.

It like saying defense has been carrying France NT. It should be. But really, it's been the midfield. Valbuena, Matuidi and Pogba are our best performers. Schneiderlin looked EXCEPTIONAL this NT week. That's our strength.

It was the defense... and a one man offense called Messi. However much people might feel disappointed he was not able to do more during the finals, he did have a hand in nearly every goal on the way to the finals, and that must be taken into account.

That was pretty much the game plan for France too... defend and hope Zidane create something. When he was out, it became defend and then... well... no idea. You certainly weren't going to get anything out of managers like Lemerre, Santini and Domenech. It was pathetic. It was such lazy management it made me ill.

Thuram and Laurent Blanc carried us until the WC final in 1998. Zidane was completely dominant and had the best tournament i have ever seen by a player with Maradona in 1986. He did the same in 2006 although he gained momentum in that one. In 2000, he was dominant from minute 1 until the last.

farfan wrote:Lol at comparing Messi and Zidane's international careers .
France 1996-2006 frequently yoyoed betxeen being the best team in the world and an average NT depending on Zidane's health and form.

France was so stacked that they hardly missed Zidane when the likes of Micoud and Dhorasso filled in for an extended period of time right ? Oh wait ,its the other way around.....

And apparently , Guivarc'h and Dugarry (started Euro 2000)  were much more formidable teammates than the likes of Aguero

Well, Aguero did nothing special when he was needed. It's wrong to just look at the name and assume that Messi was surrounded by great players. I'd understand it if someone born today does that because he wouldn't have seen the games live but we all did here. And  what I know for sure is that Zidane's teammates performed better than Messi's when needed.

Here are just some examples :
Thuram's goals against Croatia in 1998, Patrick Viera and Makelele protecting Zidane in 2006, Henry being clutch in 2006, Trezeguet insane goal against Italy in 2002 ...

Now  tell me what has any Argentina forward done that's is even close to such feat ? Higuain and Palacio failed , Aguero was non-existent . Despite having Di maria , Pastore etc in the team Messi is still the one who had to play as the anchor of the midfield. Instead of being the one getting great balls he's the one making them but the others just screw up ( That last action in the copa final sums it up very well )

Henry was clutch in 2006?????? I remember him being offsides about 2 million times and getting 1 goal when Roberto Carlos decided it was a good time to tie his shoelaces. That was the extent of his contribution.

sportsczy wrote:Henry was clutch in 2006??????  I remember him being offsides about 2 million times and getting 1 goal when Roberto Carlos decided it was a good time to tie his shoelaces.  That was the extent of his contribution.

Imo he was not really great but he was clutch yeah. He scored the only goal against Brazil , doesn't matter if Carlos was being dumb ; He scored against South Korea and Togo ( let's not forget France had a difficult time in the group stage so these goals were very important ) and finally he won a crucial penalty against Portugal. That's being clutch to me.

Comparing Zidane and Messi international career can be best summed up in a nice and neat way:
Zidane won a WC and a Euro
Messi won an under 20 youth tournament and an Olympic medal.

Of course, you are more than welcome to fill in the blanks with their goals, assists, importance, wide assists but all that would just lead you to the above statements.

LeBéninois wrote:

sportsczy wrote:Henry was clutch in 2006??????  I remember him being offsides about 2 million times and getting 1 goal when Roberto Carlos decided it was a good time to tie his shoelaces.  That was the extent of his contribution.

Imo he was not really great but he was clutch yeah. He scored the only goal against Brazil , doesn't matter if Carlos was being dumb ; He scored against South Korea and Togo ( let's not forget France had a difficult time in the group stage so these goals were very important ) and finally he won a crucial penalty against Portugal. That's being clutch to me.

He was very very poor though.  Only reason we struggled in games was that he couldn't get open for the life of him.  I blame it on Domenech for playing him as a pure 9...  but still, we were dominant everywhere... and i mean all over the place.  Our only achilles heal was the CF spot in that tournament along with Barthez.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

Dnmac wrote:I would argue that Argentina is one of the most talented teams in the world but the squad selected to the world cup had massive flaws all over the place from Keeper to defenders to Midfield all which Messi made up for and ultimately would have won if his strikers put in half a shift a game.

Please. What flaws did we have in defense? What flaws did we have in GK? These were not the reasons we lost the WC or the CA, however much they have weaknesses on paper they played very well throughout both competitions.

We lost the WC because our forwards either failed to show up (due to injury or poor form) or messed their golden chances (Palacio and Higuain missed their chances for goal in the final, but so did Messi). We also lost the WC because we had a coach whose attacking strategy was "pass the ball to Messi and hope for the best", there was no attacking structure and the called up players were not up for it.

We lost the CA because once again our forwards failed to show up (I completely agree that Aguero gets a free pass on both while Higgy has become Tevez circa 2011), our coach had the strategic intuition of a sponge and because our team failed to take advantage of the penta-marking on Messi at all times.

But don't blame one of the few things about this team that worked, and it worked well enough to get us into two finals, a steel strong defense and structure and a GK that, while not the  best in the world, played a very sollid 11 games (well, 10, if we include the penalties of the CA...).

The defense only worked because of the offence, every team bunkers against Argentina because of the offense. Every team adjusts it's tactic against Messi, they have to mark him with couple players, which is straight out of fluid buildup play.

Best example in World Cup would be Netherlands and Robben, ran havoc against everybody, but then against Messi, Robben had 6 touches in the first half and hardly created anything in 120 min of play. Messi is not only the best attacker and midfielder, he's also the best defender on the planet. Not because he's always actively defending, but because every team trains collectively to stop him.

Right-hand man comparison.

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC14

4 - 23 - 46 - 9 - Messi
1 - 10 - 25 - 7 - Di Maria

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC06

3 - 12 - 20 - 1 - Henry
3 - 12 - 15 - 4 - Zidane

Messi not only clearly the best player, but clearly getting less help than what Zidane got.

Don't great great great players get the best out of their teammates? (Quoting Charles Barkley here)

Lol @ sports trying to blatantly lie that zidane had the most dominant tournament since maradona in 86.
1. A red card
2. Missed 2 games
3. Thuram rescued france in the semis
4. I even doubt zidane played more than 4 times in 98.
He wasnt even a top 10 player in the 98 wc besides his 2 goals in the final. So i'm actually lost here.
On topic, yes zidane is better than messi internationally.

Bankz wrote:Lol @ sports trying to blatantly lie that zidane had the most dominant tournament since maradona in 86.
1. A red card
2. Missed 2 games
3. Thuram rescued france in the semis
4. I even doubt zidane played more than 4 times in 98.
He wasnt even a top 10 player in the 98 wc besides his 2 goals in the final. So i'm actually lost here.
On topic, yes zidane is better than messi internationally.

He's talking about Euro 2000.

But even then, I think Ronaldo was more impressive in 98 than Zidane in 2000

sportsczy wrote:

LeBéninois wrote:

sportsczy wrote:Henry was clutch in 2006??????  I remember him being offsides about 2 million times and getting 1 goal when Roberto Carlos decided it was a good time to tie his shoelaces.  That was the extent of his contribution.

Imo he was not really great but he was clutch yeah. He scored the only goal against Brazil , doesn't matter if Carlos was being dumb ; He scored against South Korea and Togo ( let's not forget France had a difficult time in the group stage so these goals were very important ) and finally he won a crucial penalty against Portugal. That's being clutch to me.

He was very very poor though.  Only reason we struggled in games was that he couldn't get open for the life of him.  I blame it on Domenech for playing him as a pure 9...  but still, we were dominant everywhere... and i mean all over the place.  Our only achilles heal was the CF spot in that tournament along with Barthez.
 

My point , Zidane's team was stronger and more balanced than Messi's. You said France was carried by Thuram et Blanc in 1998 and about 2006 , a very strong team as you mentionned in the bold part. My point is, Messi has been let down by his mates at the contrary of Zidane ( let's not forget it's a Collective team ) so people can mock him as much as they want about losing in those 2 finals, I guess it's the mentality of you are either a winner or a loser no matter HOW you lost. Messi 2014 and LBJ 2015 are very similar imo.

You know that stats can only take you so far when it's used to compare a proven winner to a proven flop.

zizzle wrote:You know that stats can only take you so far when it's used to compare a proven winner to a proven flop.

Who's the proven flop ? Messi ? I can't believe you are serious.