Messi vs Zidane at the highest level of int football

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Post by Harmonica Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:42 am

Dnmac4 wrote:You can say Messi carries Iniesta (Messi carries everyone on Barcelona) and I Wouldn't argue with that but then you have the Spanish national team and there historic streak, the trophies and the style of play built totally around Xavi and Iniesta.
Xaviesta+Villa

WC10 champion (Villa Bronze Ball, EU08/WC10 9+1+2)
Euro08 champion (Xavi Best Player, EU08/12/WC10 1+6+9)
Euro12 champion (Iniesta Best Player, EU08/12/WC10 2+4+8 )

Involved collectively 25/32 goals.

Messi @28

WC14 runner-up (Golden Ball, 4+1+2)
CA07 runner-up (Best Young Player, 2+3+3)
CA15 runner-up (MVP, 1+3+6)

Involved in 25/34 goals.

Spanish national team had a club edge forming players from two teams mostly, and also a tactical edge. Germany has been similar without the general tactical edge, silver/bronze/gold run, most player from Bundesliga knowing each other well and working in well oiled system. Argentina hasn't had familiarity edge nor tactical edge, with players flying to NT from all over the world, constantly changing coaches and tactics. They've had Messi though. In club football familiarity and tactical edges aren't nearly as important, quality of the players is.
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Post by Dnmac4 Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:38 pm

Harmonica wrote:
Dnmac4 wrote:You can say Messi carries Iniesta (Messi carries everyone on Barcelona) and I Wouldn't argue with that but then you have the Spanish national team and there historic streak, the trophies and the style of play built totally around Xavi and Iniesta.
Xaviesta+Villa

WC10 champion (Villa Bronze Ball, EU08/WC10 9+1+2)
Euro08 champion (Xavi Best Player, EU08/12/WC10 1+6+9)
Euro12 champion (Iniesta Best Player, EU08/12/WC10 2+4+8 )

Involved collectively 25/32 goals.

Messi @28

WC14 runner-up (Golden Ball, 4+1+2)
CA07 runner-up (Best Young Player, 2+3+3)
CA15 runner-up (MVP, 1+3+6)

Involved in 25/34 goals.

Spanish national team had a club edge forming players from two teams mostly, and also a tactical edge. Germany has been similar without the general tactical edge, silver/bronze/gold run, most player from Bundesliga knowing each other well and working in well oiled system. Argentina hasn't had familiarity edge nor tactical edge, with players flying to NT from all over the world, constantly changing coaches and tactics. They've had Messi though. In club football familiarity and tactical edges aren't nearly as important, quality of the players is.


I agree with Messi, I don't think there is any reason he should receive any flak about his performances for his national team.

He plays midfield not forward and it would be one thing if his forwards who are mostly world class were producing in these tournaments but it's criminal how bad they are.

If for instance Kun, Higgy and company were killing it and Argentina were losing then I would have no issue with people killing Messi on a national team level.
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Post by sportsczy Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:05 pm

Really? Messi shouldn't get criticized for being unable to perform at the highest level on a NT that has arguably the mist talent on the planet? That's what separates the great players from the goats btw... The ability to shine in all circumstances. When everything is perfectly tailored for you, the challenges are far less.
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Post by Harmonica Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:17 pm

sportsczy wrote:Really?  Messi shouldn't get criticized for being unable to perform at the highest level on a NT that has arguably the mist talent on the planet?  That's what separates the great players from the goats btw...  The ability to shine in all circumstances.  When everything is perfectly tailored for you, the challenges are far less.
What's this "highest level"?

Messi (14/15) is only the second player after Ronaldo (97/98) to perform in the level of best player of the tournament in 2 consecutive NT-tournaments.
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Post by sportsczy Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:18 pm

And you think the WC best player award was legit I assume Laughing
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Post by Harmonica Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:20 pm

sportsczy wrote:And you think the WC best player award was legit I assume Laughing
And you don't? The baguette goes into stomach, not in the brain. Laughing
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Post by sportsczy Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:22 pm

Is there an interpreter around here please... I no longer follow Laughing
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Post by Harmonica Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:25 pm

Let me check, maybe he could interpret the "highest level". Laughing
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Post by Dnmac4 Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:05 am

sportsczy wrote:Really?  Messi shouldn't get criticized for being unable to perform at the highest level on a NT that has arguably the mist talent on the planet?  That's what separates the great players from the goats btw...  The ability to shine in all circumstances.  When everything is perfectly tailored for you, the challenges are far less.


Are you serious man?  This gets really annoying since I don't know why I assume people understand the sport of football if there on a football forum.

I don't mean to take a shot at you but this quote shows a real lack of understanding of how teams are set up and the differences in positions.

" unable to perform at the highest level on a NT that has arguably the most talent on the planet? "

Messi is an attacking midfielder for Argentina.  His job is not to score every single goal it's to facilitate the attacking play, set up his teammates and score when he can.  The guy dropped back to midfield most of both tournaments and had to push the team forward since they have a massive hole in creativity in the midfield.

In fact you claim that his team has arguably the most talent on the planet.  Great, that's awesome (although I don't really agree, take Messi out of that team and the issues he masks would be blindingly apparent) please tell me when these players are actually going to perform.

Because contrary to popular belief Argentina did line up with Forwards/Strikers in the World Cup.  It's just they were so incredibly bad that you may have missed them.

What is Messi supposed to do kick the ball for them.  You want to pretend and throw in this talent argument and act like Argentina's strikers aren't some of the biggest chokers in history when compared to there club level.

Kun Aguero- Played 5 games in the world cup scored 0 goals with 0 assists.
Higuain- Started all 7 games and had 1 goal
Ezequiel Lavezzi - Played 6 of the 7 games and scored 0 goals
Rodrigo Palacio- played 5 of the 7 games usually as a sub around the 70 minute mark to be fair and scored 0 goals.
Di Maria- Played 5 games and had 1 goal 0 assists (since he was supposed to be a creative outlet for the team)

And Messi who again is playing in an attacking Midfield role, let's see his production.

Messi- played all 7 games with 4 goals and an assist not to mention creating other goals he didn't get assist credit for.

BTW, I'm sure you knew all of this but it just amazes me how someone could take this information in process it and come to the conclusion that Messi plays with all these great players and that he was the one unable to perform at the highest level not his teammates who according to you are just great, the best in the world.

It's Messi that's unable to cope with a team not tailored around him not very capable players who are unable to perform while playing with the best player in the world and ruin chance after chance from the play he sets up.

The latter is the truth.  

Almost every statistic you can find will tell you Messi was pretty much the most efficient player in the World Cup whereas his amazing teammates "arguably the most talented in the world" where some of the least efficient in the tournament.

But the hell with reason or statistics, just give any credit to his amazing, most talented in the world teammates and place all blame on the most efficient player on his team and in the tournament while playing out of position for the good of the team.

That makes perfect sense.
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Post by titosantill Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:42 am

come to think of it, i like aguero, but he hardly get's criticized for his performance or lack thereof with argentina. messi's definitely going to bear the brunt of criticisms; one, when a country has the perception that a great player does well at club level in comparison to the national team, they get upset, happened with rivaldo. two, obviously when someone is lifted to great heights a lot is expected

but aguero, who imo is probably a top 2 cf alongside suarez has disappeared badly in almost every tournament. granted, he wasn't a starter at first, but sometimes he looks like those aliens from space jam stole his powers. i don't care for palacio and lavezzi, they're role players; higuain at one time played well for argentina then he started having brain farts. but aguero has been given a pass from fans for far too long
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Post by LeBéninois Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:54 am

@Sports Messi has been great with his NT. Better than any french player since Zidane who had amazing players around him and played in a very balanced team. Messi is easily at Zidane's level for his NT (let's not get into technicalities ). The difference ? Well the teammate. In the 2006 WC Henry scored 2 goals ( 1 against Brazil ) + won a penalty for his team. What have Aguero done ? the others strikers
Many people are wanking over Argentina striking force but at the end of the day Messi has to play as an AM or even deeper. Just go back and watch Palacio and Higuain miss, that's criminal especially Palacio's.
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Post by jibers Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:11 am

sportsczy wrote:Really?  Messi shouldn't get criticized for being unable to perform at the highest level on a NT that has arguably the mist talent on the planet?  That's what separates the great players from the goats btw...  The ability to shine in all circumstances.  When everything is perfectly tailored for you, the challenges are far less.


When didn't he perform at the highest level? I'm confused now, the WC might be more prestigious than the cl but the cl is a higher level of football as a whole than the WC.

Once again, I think people are expecting too much from one player. Messi is getting the blame for everything as if he is the only person on the team. Tell me one other player in Argentina that stood up to take responsibility...

Zidane's France was perfectly tailored for him, more so than any of the super teams he played for. Most WC winning teams have balance. Messi cannot create balance and that is up to the manager..

Messi has to be creator, has to have assists, has to score goals. Personally, I think Messi was the best player in the WC but the problem is that people were comparing him to his prime level. That is what distorts peoples opinion. Where it any other player noone would have complained about them winning the award for best player. Messi has to dribble a whole team and score a hattrick every game for people to say he had a good game.

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Post by Harmonica Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:36 am

Quite ironic that Zidane's WC Golden Ball-performance is easily the worst performance of them all.

http://www.goallegacy.net/t36526p90-most-controversial-world-cup-golden-ball-s-since-1966#1356442

- He coasted group phase, France tied twice with him and won crucially without him.
- Excluding the penalties he didn't create, scored only one goal from open play when the game was almost done an dusted.
- For a playmaker didn't create as much, only registered 12 chances created and 15 players dribbled which is a lot less than other playmakers Maradona 86 (27/53), Messi 14 (23/46), Cruyff 74 (36/33) and Pele 70 (28/16).
- The red card incident just about is the cherry on a hype crusted and half hollow cake.

Zidane easily competes the MOAT (most overrated of all-time) with Cronaldo.
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Post by Bankz Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:47 am

Yet, you all have no qualms giving messi all the credit when they're other players in the team, why the double standard? Afterall, if this same aguero and higuain had done their jobs, u all will still be saying it was all messi. Every of their goals would be attributed to a messi pass/vision, and if the favour were returned, it would be attributed to messi top class finishing. Btw, aguero scored 2 goals in the copa, yet, this same messi scored a paltry 1 goal in 6 games and a penalty at that, whats more his 2 assists came in a single game. If messi is praised for a victory (irrespective of others in the team) he should also be critisized for the teams failures. Dont know whats with the hypocrisy. I even saw some on here destperately trying to say messi was better than suarez in the cl final. Btw, zizou shits on messi at intl level anytime anyday and it isnt even close. The only one who rivals/surpasses him on intl level was el phenomeno, the brazilian ronaldo. They're at their own holy level internationally.
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Post by Harmonica Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:54 am

Bankz wrote:Yet, you all have no qualms giving messi all the credit when they're others players in the team, why the double standard? Afterall, if this same aguero and higuain had done their jobs, u all will still be saying it was all messi, every of their goals would be attributed to a messi pass/vision? And if the favour were returned, it would be attributed to messi top class finishing. Btw, aguero scored 2 goals in the copa, yet, this same messi scored a paltry 1 goal in 6 games and a penalty at that. If messi is praised for a victory (irrespective of others in the team) he should also be critisized for the teams failure. Dont know whats with the hypocrisy. I even saw some on here destperately trying to say messi was better than suarez in the cl final. Btw, zizou shits on messi at intl level anytime anyday and it isnt even close. The only one who rivals/surpasses him on intl level was el phenomeno, the brazilian ronaldo. They're at their own holy level internationally.

Suarez better than Messi in CL-final? What are you on drugs? Messi was the only player involved in all the 3 goals, never mind that he advanced the game far more than anyone else, 10 dribbles vs 3 of the rest of Barcelona collectively, and this being marked far more than anyone else. It's not even the same game Messi plays with anyone else.

-25% Insulting other users
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Post by sportsczy Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:02 am

LeBéninois wrote:@Sports Messi has been great with his NT. Better than any french player since Zidane who had amazing players around him and played in a very balanced team. Messi is easily at Zidane's level for his NT (let's not get into technicalities ). The difference ? Well the teammate. In the 2006 WC Henry scored 2 goals ( 1 against Brazil ) + won a penalty for his team. What have Aguero done ? the others strikers
Many people are wanking over Argentina striking force but at the end of the day Messi has to play as an AM or even deeper. Just go back and watch Palacio and Higuain miss, that's criminal especially Palacio's.

Did you see the strikers Zidane had in 1998.  Guivarc'h lol.  And from day 1 until he retired, France played with 2 DMs and gave Zidane 100% of the creative duties...  that's the reason France was about to miss WC qualification for 2006 when Zidane took a 1 year hiatus.  They had no creative threat without him.  Heck, the team fell apart in WC 2002 when he got injured in the last prep game before the tournament and couldn't play in the first 2 games and played at 50% in the 3rd one.

You can't compare.  France looked average without him during that entire golden era and the results bear that out despite all the superstars. They fell apart once he retired for good too.
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Post by Bankz Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:05 am

The world cup will only remember goats like zidane, his world cup victory, his two goals in the wc final, how france got humiliated without him (02), how he came back from international retirement and led france to the world cup final. And euros will remember him as an euro champion whilst putting up goat level performances game after game and being the undisputed best player with highlight moments everywhere. Not some overated international choker. Btw, messi did *bleep* all in the wc knock-outs (as usual) in the groups, he played against some iran, bosnia and nigeria yet that somehow automatically gives him a golden ball, same with the copa america, motm and golden balls have become civil rights as long as he wear a jersey.
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Post by Bankz Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:12 am

@harmonia.
Lol, the irony. Coming from someone who prefares messi to himself. I fear life after messi for you.
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Post by Harmonica Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:15 am

Messi @28

Competition, team, individual - Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)

WC14 runner-up, Golden Ball - 7 (4 + 1 + 2) out of 8 team goals (+1 SO goal)
CA15 runner-up, MVP - 10 (1 (1p) + 3 + 6) out of 10 team goals (+2 SO goals)
CA07 runner-up, Best Young Player - 8 (2 + 3 + 3) out of 16 team goals

Total 25 (7 (1p) + 7 + 11) out of 34 team goals, or 74% importance (+3 SO goals)

Zidane Career

Competition, team, individual - Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)

WC06 runner-up, Golden Ball - 5 (3 (2p) + 1 + 1) out of 9 team goals
Euro00 champion, Best Player - 6 (2 + 1 + 3) out of 13 team goals
WC98 champions, - , 4 (2 + 1 + 1) out of 15 team goals (+1 SO goal)

Total 15 (7 (2p) + 3 + 5) out of 37 team goals, or 41% importance (+1 SO goal)

Zidane never was as marked as Messi, Zidane never advanced the game like Messi, never created as much Messi and never scored as individual goals as Messi. Never mind that his team mates actually performed always.

Zidane is kind of a football fake, like Cronaldo, at least when compared to Messi. Well both played in Refdrid so...
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Post by Bankz Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:46 am

But, but, but, Zidane has 1 world cup, 1 euro cup. Thats what everyone remembers, nobody remembers some weired random stats no one cares about. This is why zidane will always be rated higher on the international level. Btw, lol at people thinking messi was better than james, robben and neuer at the wc.
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Post by Harmonica Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:52 am

Who cares, a lion doesn't bother with the opinion of the sheep. It's like saying Nazi-party was always the best choice, never mind what actually happened. Laughing
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Post by Harmonica Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:55 am

And here's what people currently think in France, Brazil and Spain

Messi vs Zidane at the highest level of int football Messiii

Messi vs Zidane at the highest level of int football CAlXj8VVAAAsASb

Messi vs Zidane at the highest level of int football 1415311882_extras_noticia_foton_7_0

So I'm not that worried what it's like when Messi finishes his career.
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Post by FennecFox7 Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:28 pm

think you should post some sources for your stats. after all you have a tendency to bullshit. lets not forget when messi had 9 dispossessions and you made it look like he lost the ball once
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Post by jibers Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:41 pm

FennecFox7 wrote:think you should post some sources for your stats. after all you have a tendency to bullshit. lets not forget when messi had 9 dispossessions and you made it look like he lost the ball once
Messi vs Zidane at the highest level of int football Ruh_roh
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Post by Harmonica Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:03 pm

FennecFox7 wrote:think you should post some sources for your stats. after all you have a tendency to bullshit. lets not forget when messi had 9 dispossessions and you made it look like he lost the ball once
Matches, that's the source. Added the rest.

Messi @28

Competition Team Individual
Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)

WC14 runner-up Golden Ball
7 (4 + 1 + 2) out of 8 team goals, or 88% importance (+1 SO goal)
CA15 runner-up Most Valuable Player
10 (1 (1p) + 3 + 6) out of 10 team goals, or 100% importance (+2 SO goals)
CA07 runner-up Best Young Player
8 (2 + 3 + 3) out of 16 team goals, or 50% importance
OL08 gold
9 (2 + 3 + 4) out of 11 team goals, or 82% importance
WC05 u20 champion Golden Ball
9 (6 (2p) + 2 + 1) out of 12 team goals, or 75% importance

Total
43
(15 (3p) + 12 + 16) out of 57 team goals, or 75% importance (+3 SO goals)
Total Senior
25
(7 (1p) + 7 + 11) out of 34 team goals, or 74% importance (+3 SO goals)

Zidane Career

Competition Team Individual
Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)

WC06 runner-up Golden Ball
5 (3 (2p) + 1 + 1) out of 9 team goals, or 56% importance
EU00 champion Best Player
6 (2 + 1 + 3) out of 13 team goals, or 46% importance
WC98 champions -
4 (2 + 1 + 1) out of 15 team goals, or 27% importance (+1 SO goal)

Total
15
(7 (2p) + 3 + 5) out of 37 team goals, or 41% importance (+1 SO goal)

hmm
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