Barclays Premier League 15-16 Discussion-v1

GoonerJay29 wrote:Milner "can hang" with any of them but doesn't have anywhere near the level of creativity or the range of passing that Ramsey, Schweinsteiger and Herrera have (and Cazorla as well, as he plays CM for us, not Wilshere), nor their ability to dictate games. I rate Milner as a useful player but I think it's a bit optimistic to place on a similar level as the best midfielders in the league.

Oh really?

But seriously, Milner isn't going to be expected to be overly creative I think. He's there to harry, recycle possession and push the ball forward to the more creative players like Henderson, Coutinho and Firmino. In terms of work-rate and intelligence off the ball though he will be very valuable. I think his creativity is still underrated though because he's English and wasn't a full time starter at City (though he probably should have been).

El Cujo wrote:

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:When each of last years top 4 has better players in pretty much every position? yeah.... no.

I don't agree, but we can move on from that. I'm more confident even in any player from Liverpool's backline than any player on United's, and most of those on Arsenal's...

I think City and Chelsea are locked into the top 4, but absolutely Liverpool can compete with Arsenal and United if either Ings or Origi emerge as legitimate strikers, or they buy one (even Benteke will do, IMO).

Hypothetically, we're looking at what...

Henderson-Can-Milner vs. Ramsey-Coquelin-Wilshere vs. Schweinsteiger-Schneiderlin-Herrera

Can is the wildcard, but no moreso than Coquelin IMO, and he has the potential to be one of the best players in that group. He certainly looked the part for large parts of last season. Henderson is right up there with Ramsey as best of the group, and Milner can hang with any of them. I don't see where any team has a distinct advantage in midfield unless Milner and Can flop there.

In terms of depth Liverpool have good to decent options in Lucas and Allen. United have Carrick, Fellaini and Blind I guess and Arsenal have Arteta, Rosicky and Flamini. Too bad Fellaini probably starts over Herrera or someone else, and Arsenal always seem to have a ton of injuries to Rosicky and Wilshere. Still, Liverpool can keep up here regardless.

Firmino-???-Coutinho vs. Sanchez-Giroud-Ozil vs. Mata-Rooney-Memphis/Valencia?

Any decent striker would easily put them over United's front 3 and in contention with Arsenal. Giroud is good but not great. Memphis is not going to make a big impact in his first season and while Valencia had a strong season last year he's not on Coutinho/Firmino's level. Rooney is good but fading, and Mata hasn't been great over the last two seasons at all. I think Firmino and Coutinho can be very bit as effective as Sanchez and Ozil assuming that Firmino can bring his BuLi form over.

Anyway, like I said I think it comes down to what kind of striker shows up at Liverpool this season. If they don't buy anyone they are taking a big gamble on Origi or Ings (or maybe someone else?) coming good, and if they buy someone who will most likely be Benteke he is a good enough option to bring them on that same level, and if they get someone better...well, Rodgers knows how to build a flat-track bully and play to win by just scoring more.

Ramsey is better than Henderson

Magricos wrote:

El Cujo wrote:

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:When each of last years top 4 has better players in pretty much every position? yeah.... no.

Firmino-???-Coutinho vs. Sanchez-Giroud-Ozil vs. Mata-Rooney-Memphis/Valencia?

Any decent striker would easily put them over United's front 3 and in contention with Arsenal. Giroud is good but not great. Memphis is not going to make a big impact in his first season and while Valencia had a strong season last year he's not on Coutinho/Firmino's level. Rooney is good but fading, and Mata hasn't been great over the last two seasons at all. I think Firmino and Coutinho can be very bit as effective as Sanchez and Ozil assuming that Firmino can bring his BuLi form over.

Ramsey is better than Henderson

Valencia ?
if valencia starts in wing again for us I would put my head into a bucket pour some plaster of paris or quick setting cement and dive straight into a nearby water stream. The fckr is stealing a living at United.
But then I can see lvg starting him ahead of darmian at RB come first match of the season.

El Cujo wrote:Herrera is United's best midfielder, imo.

He is. But carrick is equally good if not better provided he is properly rested.

The Franchise wrote:

srigooner wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

Wenger is quitely a premface tbh. Pool win the league

Disagree. I think Liverpool have done good business and early. Nothing stellar, and probably not title challenging (yet) but they could definitely have a good say in the fortunes of the other teams and the top four fight.

I have to disagree right back, my friend, it is fantasy to think they can win the league with what they have this season.

Have a say in the fortunes? Alot of teams have a say in that.

True, a lot of teams have a say in the fortunes in a more passive way. I think, however, that Liverpool being underrated by the punters could work in their favour though.

Again, I am not saying they can win the league with their current squad. However, the signings they have made are decent (at least on paper) and could put them very much in the mix.

I expect this season to be a lot closer than the previous one where one team was head and shoulders ahead in terms of consistency through the year. As things stand, the Manchester clubs and Arsenal have all improved relative to last sesason. Liverpool are about the same level (my judgment). So with the top 4 clawing each other back, the 5-7 placed teams should be a lot closer in terms of points on the table.

There were already indicators of this last season, in terms of numbers. 2-8 was a mixed bag for a large part of the season, which is why I was tracking the weekly performances of the teams in m Rival Watch thread in the Arsenal section.

Anyway, it is all a question of personal judgement and very much subjective.

Glory wrote:
if valencia starts in wing again for us I would put my head into a bucket pour some plaster of paris or quick setting cement and dive straight into a nearby water stream.

The stream would wash away said plaster/cement. Would be counterproductive, no?

El Cujo wrote:

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:When each of last years top 4 has better players in pretty much every position? yeah.... no.

I don't agree, but we can move on from that. I'm more confident even in any player from Liverpool's backline than any player on United's, and most of those on Arsenal's...

I think City and Chelsea are locked into the top 4, but absolutely Liverpool can compete with Arsenal and United if either Ings or Origi emerge as legitimate strikers, or they buy one (even Benteke will do, IMO).

Hypothetically, we're looking at what...

Henderson-Can-Milner vs. Ramsey-Coquelin-Wilshere vs. Schweinsteiger-Schneiderlin-Herrera

Can is the wildcard, but no moreso than Coquelin IMO, and he has the potential to be one of the best players in that group. He certainly looked the part for large parts of last season. Henderson is right up there with Ramsey as best of the group, and Milner can hang with any of them. I don't see where any team has a distinct advantage in midfield unless Milner and Can flop there.

In terms of depth Liverpool have good to decent options in Lucas and Allen. United have Carrick, Fellaini and Blind I guess and Arsenal have Arteta, Rosicky and Flamini. Too bad Fellaini probably starts over Herrera or someone else, and Arsenal always seem to have a ton of injuries to Rosicky and Wilshere. Still, Liverpool can keep up here regardless.

Firmino-???-Coutinho vs. Sanchez-Giroud-Ozil vs. Mata-Rooney-Memphis/Valencia?

Any decent striker would easily put them over United's front 3 and in contention with Arsenal. Giroud is good but not great. Memphis is not going to make a big impact in his first season and while Valencia had a strong season last year he's not on Coutinho/Firmino's level. Rooney is good but fading, and Mata hasn't been great over the last two seasons at all. I think Firmino and Coutinho can be very bit as effective as Sanchez and Ozil assuming that Firmino can bring his BuLi form over.

Anyway, like I said I think it comes down to what kind of striker shows up at Liverpool this season. If they don't buy anyone they are taking a big gamble on Origi or Ings (or maybe someone else?) coming good, and if they buy someone who will most likely be Benteke he is a good enough option to bring them on that same level, and if they get someone better...well, Rodgers knows how to build a flat-track bully and play to win by just scoring more.

I am sorry mate, but I disagree with a few of your evaluations - especially considering Arsenal and your approach for comparison. (I also don't agree with Mole's initial statement that each of the top 4 is man for man better than Liverpool, but we all know he's a hipster).

First concerning the backline: it's not about who plays, but more a unit of 5 (assuming 4 defenders) who have to work cohesively with the 1 or 2 deeper midfield players. Liverpool last season itself was an example of how attacking and defending as a unit went a long way in a title challenge, even without 50m CBs at the heart of the defense.

That said, in terms of Arsenal, Mertesacker and Koscielny are a well drilled and experienced partnership of over 3 years. Bellerin/Debuchy and Monreal/Gibbs are a set of varied options at full back roles, who can be picked based on form and tactics required against individual opposition. Then we added Cech behind this. I think as a unit, as things stand, we are ahead of Liverpool atm. (Again, not comparing man to man).

Now the midfield (and Coquelin): Yes, that is not our midfield. Ramsey-Wilshere is what we all want to see working, but they're too similar for that to function. That is why one of Arteta or Cazorla was moved into that role. Now it depends on how we line up: 4-1-4-1 or 4-2-3-1. Coquelin has proved himself very well in the deep role and locked it down - so much so that we're not even linked with a decent DM back-up, much to everyone's consternation! I agree that Can is a very good player, but given how he's been used everywhere, I see Coquelin as much less of a wildcard in the position. He's had chances to prove himself there and he's nailed it.

Our depth, however, is ageing and I have some apprehensions over it. That's probably why I would like to see our midfield strengthened a bit. However, talking of depth, Oxlade has also been used to good effect in the deeper role in the past. Again, we have some varied options and skill sets to draw upon and these guys have been playing together for years.

I am not sure if Giroud will be our starting striker next season. I think AW is moving towards not having a defined starting striker. He can draw upon Giroud, Welbeck, Theo (and even Alexis/Akpom) depending on how he wants to line up in a particular match. Each of them, interestingly, has a different skill set in that role, making it harder for the opposing defense to have a straight-forward counterstrategy - this was one of our biggest Achilles' over the years. Remember 'Arsenal walk the ball into the net' stuff? Then there is Özil and Aaron/Jack (also touted for a creative wide role, depending on who plays in midfield).

(I have intentionally not ventured into comments on players of United and City, since their respective fan(s) are better positioned to answer that).


What stood out to me in your evaluation was the bunch of assumptions that you underplayed for your best case scenario: Milner's ability, striker signing, Firmino carrying over his form, Ings/Origi gamble. And the stuff that you might have overlooked: all new signings gelling and starting to click as a unit, which takes months.

This is one advantage Arsenal and Chelsea (and to a lesser extent, City) definitely have over the other two clubs as things stand today. And it is a big advantage. The last time there was a churn at the other clubs, Arsenal's continuity put us on top of the table for 120+ days before others overhauled that.

In view of that as another major factor, as things stand, I would say Arsenal and Chelsea are a bit ahead of the rest - but not much , mind you! Like I said in an earlier post, I believe this season will indeed be much closer!

srigooner wrote:
The stream would wash away said plaster/cement. Would be counterproductive, no?

Let's not get into technicalities.

Spoiler:

srigooner wrote:

El Cujo wrote:

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:When each of last years top 4 has better players in pretty much every position? yeah.... no.

I don't agree, but we can move on from that. I'm more confident even in any player from Liverpool's backline than any player on United's, and most of those on Arsenal's...

I think City and Chelsea are locked into the top 4, but absolutely Liverpool can compete with Arsenal and United if either Ings or Origi emerge as legitimate strikers, or they buy one (even Benteke will do, IMO).

Hypothetically, we're looking at what...

Henderson-Can-Milner vs. Ramsey-Coquelin-Wilshere vs. Schweinsteiger-Schneiderlin-Herrera

Can is the wildcard, but no moreso than Coquelin IMO, and he has the potential to be one of the best players in that group. He certainly looked the part for large parts of last season. Henderson is right up there with Ramsey as best of the group, and Milner can hang with any of them. I don't see where any team has a distinct advantage in midfield unless Milner and Can flop there.

In terms of depth Liverpool have good to decent options in Lucas and Allen. United have Carrick, Fellaini and Blind I guess and Arsenal have Arteta, Rosicky and Flamini. Too bad Fellaini probably starts over Herrera or someone else, and Arsenal always seem to have a ton of injuries to Rosicky and Wilshere. Still, Liverpool can keep up here regardless.

Firmino-???-Coutinho vs. Sanchez-Giroud-Ozil vs. Mata-Rooney-Memphis/Valencia?

Any decent striker would easily put them over United's front 3 and in contention with Arsenal. Giroud is good but not great. Memphis is not going to make a big impact in his first season and while Valencia had a strong season last year he's not on Coutinho/Firmino's level. Rooney is good but fading, and Mata hasn't been great over the last two seasons at all. I think Firmino and Coutinho can be very bit as effective as Sanchez and Ozil assuming that Firmino can bring his BuLi form over.

Anyway, like I said I think it comes down to what kind of striker shows up at Liverpool this season. If they don't buy anyone they are taking a big gamble on Origi or Ings (or maybe someone else?) coming good, and if they buy someone who will most likely be Benteke he is a good enough option to bring them on that same level, and if they get someone better...well, Rodgers knows how to build a flat-track bully and play to win by just scoring more.

I am sorry mate, but I disagree with a few of your evaluations - especially considering Arsenal and your approach for comparison. (I also don't agree with Mole's initial statement that each of the top 4 is man for man better than Liverpool, but we all know he's a hipster).

First concerning the backline: it's not about who plays, but more a unit of 5 (assuming 4 defenders) who have to work cohesively with the 1 or 2 deeper midfield players. Liverpool last season itself was an example of how attacking and defending as a unit went a long way in a title challenge, even without 50m CBs at the heart of the defense.

That said, in terms of Arsenal, Mertesacker and Koscielny are a well drilled and experienced partnership of over 3 years. Bellerin/Debuchy and Monreal/Gibbs are a set of varied options at full back roles, who can be picked based on form and tactics required against individual opposition. Then we added Cech behind this. I think as a unit, as things stand, we are ahead of Liverpool atm. (Again, not comparing man to man).

Now the midfield (and Coquelin): Yes, that is not our midfield. Ramsey-Wilshere is what we all want to see working, but they're too similar for that to function. That is why one of Arteta or Cazorla was moved into that role. Now it depends on how we line up: 4-1-4-1 or 4-2-3-1. Coquelin has proved himself very well in the deep role and locked it down - so much so that we're not even linked with a decent DM back-up, much to everyone's consternation! I agree that Can is a very good player, but given how he's been used everywhere, I see Coquelin as much less of a wildcard in the position. He's had chances to prove himself there and he's nailed it.

Our depth, however, is ageing and I have some apprehensions over it. That's probably why I would like to see our midfield strengthened a bit. However, talking of depth, Oxlade has also been used to good effect in the deeper role in the past. Again, we have some varied options and skill sets to draw upon and these guys have been playing together for years.

I am not sure if Giroud will be our starting striker next season. I think AW is moving towards not having a defined starting striker. He can draw upon Giroud, Welbeck, Theo (and even Alexis/Akpom) depending on how he wants to line up in a particular match. Each of them, interestingly, has a different skill set in that role, making it harder for the opposing defense to have a straight-forward counterstrategy - this was one of our biggest Achilles' over the years. Remember 'Arsenal walk the ball into the net' stuff? Then there is Özil and Aaron/Jack (also touted for a creative wide role, depending on who plays in midfield).

(I have intentionally not ventured into comments on players of United and City, since their respective fan(s) are better positioned to answer that).


What stood out to me in your evaluation was the bunch of assumptions that you underplayed for your best case scenario: Milner's ability, striker signing, Firmino carrying over his form, Ings/Origi gamble. And the stuff that you might have overlooked: all new signings gelling and starting to click as a unit, which takes months.

This is one advantage Arsenal and Chelsea (and to a lesser extent, City) definitely have over the other two clubs as things stand today. And it is a big advantage. The last time there was a churn at the other clubs, Arsenal's continuity put us on top of the table for 120+ days before others overhauled that.

In view of that as another major factor, as things stand, I would say Arsenal and Chelsea are a bit ahead of the rest - but not much , mind you! Like I said in an earlier post, I believe this season will indeed be much closer!

My german brother putting the perspective into 'perspective' since day 1

El Cujo wrote:Oh really?

But seriously, Milner isn't going to be expected to be overly creative I think. He's there to harry, recycle possession and push the ball forward to the more creative players like Henderson, Coutinho and Firmino. In terms of work-rate and intelligence off the ball though he will be very valuable. I think his creativity is still underrated though because he's English and wasn't a full time starter at City (though he probably should have been).

A few select stats don't outweigh what can be plainly seen by watching the player. Not to mention you've selected stats that will look more favorable to a player playing on the flanks.

"His creativity is underrated because he's English" doesn't hold up, either. His nationality isn't affecting my judgement of the player (I'm English, and probably have seen all of his England caps, and a healthy number of his domestic games). As far as I've seen, people aren't calling Milner average (or any variation of) because he's English.

El Gunner wrote:

srigooner wrote:

El Cujo wrote:


I don't agree, but we can move on from that. I'm more confident even in any player from Liverpool's backline than any player on United's, and most of those on Arsenal's...

I think City and Chelsea are locked into the top 4, but absolutely Liverpool can compete with Arsenal and United if either Ings or Origi emerge as legitimate strikers, or they buy one (even Benteke will do, IMO).

Hypothetically, we're looking at what...

Henderson-Can-Milner vs. Ramsey-Coquelin-Wilshere vs. Schweinsteiger-Schneiderlin-Herrera

Can is the wildcard, but no moreso than Coquelin IMO, and he has the potential to be one of the best players in that group. He certainly looked the part for large parts of last season. Henderson is right up there with Ramsey as best of the group, and Milner can hang with any of them. I don't see where any team has a distinct advantage in midfield unless Milner and Can flop there.

In terms of depth Liverpool have good to decent options in Lucas and Allen. United have Carrick, Fellaini and Blind I guess and Arsenal have Arteta, Rosicky and Flamini. Too bad Fellaini probably starts over Herrera or someone else, and Arsenal always seem to have a ton of injuries to Rosicky and Wilshere. Still, Liverpool can keep up here regardless.

Firmino-???-Coutinho vs. Sanchez-Giroud-Ozil vs. Mata-Rooney-Memphis/Valencia?

Any decent striker would easily put them over United's front 3 and in contention with Arsenal. Giroud is good but not great. Memphis is not going to make a big impact in his first season and while Valencia had a strong season last year he's not on Coutinho/Firmino's level. Rooney is good but fading, and Mata hasn't been great over the last two seasons at all. I think Firmino and Coutinho can be very bit as effective as Sanchez and Ozil assuming that Firmino can bring his BuLi form over.

Anyway, like I said I think it comes down to what kind of striker shows up at Liverpool this season. If they don't buy anyone they are taking a big gamble on Origi or Ings (or maybe someone else?) coming good, and if they buy someone who will most likely be Benteke he is a good enough option to bring them on that same level, and if they get someone better...well, Rodgers knows how to build a flat-track bully and play to win by just scoring more.

I am sorry mate, but I disagree with a few of your evaluations - especially considering Arsenal and your approach for comparison. (I also don't agree with Mole's initial statement that each of the top 4 is man for man better than Liverpool, but we all know he's a hipster).

First concerning the backline: it's not about who plays, but more a unit of 5 (assuming 4 defenders) who have to work cohesively with the 1 or 2 deeper midfield players. Liverpool last season itself was an example of how attacking and defending as a unit went a long way in a title challenge, even without 50m CBs at the heart of the defense.

That said, in terms of Arsenal, Mertesacker and Koscielny are a well drilled and experienced partnership of over 3 years. Bellerin/Debuchy and Monreal/Gibbs are a set of varied options at full back roles, who can be picked based on form and tactics required against individual opposition. Then we added Cech behind this. I think as a unit, as things stand, we are ahead of Liverpool atm. (Again, not comparing man to man).

Now the midfield (and Coquelin): Yes, that is not our midfield. Ramsey-Wilshere is what we all want to see working, but they're too similar for that to function. That is why one of Arteta or Cazorla was moved into that role. Now it depends on how we line up: 4-1-4-1 or 4-2-3-1. Coquelin has proved himself very well in the deep role and locked it down - so much so that we're not even linked with a decent DM back-up, much to everyone's consternation! I agree that Can is a very good player, but given how he's been used everywhere, I see Coquelin as much less of a wildcard in the position. He's had chances to prove himself there and he's nailed it.

Our depth, however, is ageing and I have some apprehensions over it. That's probably why I would like to see our midfield strengthened a bit. However, talking of depth, Oxlade has also been used to good effect in the deeper role in the past. Again, we have some varied options and skill sets to draw upon and these guys have been playing together for years.

I am not sure if Giroud will be our starting striker next season. I think AW is moving towards not having a defined starting striker. He can draw upon Giroud, Welbeck, Theo (and even Alexis/Akpom) depending on how he wants to line up in a particular match. Each of them, interestingly, has a different skill set in that role, making it harder for the opposing defense to have a straight-forward counterstrategy - this was one of our biggest Achilles' over the years. Remember 'Arsenal walk the ball into the net' stuff? Then there is Özil and Aaron/Jack (also touted for a creative wide role, depending on who plays in midfield).

(I have intentionally not ventured into comments on players of United and City, since their respective fan(s) are better positioned to answer that).


What stood out to me in your evaluation was the bunch of assumptions that you underplayed for your best case scenario: Milner's ability, striker signing, Firmino carrying over his form, Ings/Origi gamble. And the stuff that you might have overlooked: all new signings gelling and starting to click as a unit, which takes months.

This is one advantage Arsenal and Chelsea (and to a lesser extent, City) definitely have over the other two clubs as things stand today. And it is a big advantage. The last time there was a churn at the other clubs, Arsenal's continuity put us on top of the table for 120+ days before others overhauled that.

In view of that as another major factor, as things stand, I would say Arsenal and Chelsea are a bit ahead of the rest - but not much , mind you! Like I said in an earlier post, I believe this season will indeed be much closer!

My german brother putting the perspective into 'perspective' since day 1

Inception

Perception

srigooner wrote:I am sorry mate, but I disagree with a few of your evaluations - especially considering Arsenal and your approach for comparison. (I also don't agree with Mole's initial statement that each of the top 4 is man for man better than Liverpool, but we all know he's a hipster).

No need to be sorry. We're here for discussion and everyone has their own opinions.

First concerning the backline: it's not about who plays, but more a unit of 5 (assuming 4 defenders) who have to work cohesively with the 1 or 2 deeper midfield players. Liverpool last season itself was an example of how attacking and defending as a unit went a long way in a title challenge, even without 50m CBs at the heart of the defense.

I agree. That said Liverpool are likely going to be more focused on scoring than they are on playing defence (to start the year at least, Rodgers showed last year he can be a bit more pragmatic when the offensive output isn't available).

That said, in terms of Arsenal, Mertesacker and Koscielny are a well drilled and experienced partnership of over 3 years. Bellerin/Debuchy and Monreal/Gibbs are a set of varied options at full back roles, who can be picked based on form and tactics required against individual opposition. Then we added Cech behind this. I think as a unit, as things stand, we are ahead of Liverpool atm. (Again, not comparing man to man).

Now the midfield (and Coquelin): Yes, that is not our midfield. Ramsey-Wilshere is what we all want to see working, but they're too similar for that to function. That is why one of Arteta or Cazorla was moved into that role. Now it depends on how we line up: 4-1-4-1 or 4-2-3-1. Coquelin has proved himself very well in the deep role and locked it down - so much so that we're not even linked with a decent DM back-up, much to everyone's consternation! I agree that Can is a very good player, but given how he's been used everywhere, I see Coquelin as much less of a wildcard in the position. He's had chances to prove himself there and he's nailed it.

It's possible, but Skrtel, Sakho and, to a lesser extent, Moreno have been playing together for a while now, and Clyne is going to provide a more solid option than Manquillo or Johnson were bringing the previous years. When you factor in that we'll have one of Can or Lucas shielding the defence as opposed to Gerrard with no legs while also having two engines in Henderson and Milner playing ahead of them I think that we can expect our defensive shape and solidity to be on a higher level than the seasons previous to this when playing with a 4 man backline. Mignolet has been a fantastic shot stopper (especially when in form) so I'm not sure getting an aging Cech is really a huge bump up from Ospina who played really well.

I definitely don't see how Coquelin is 'less of a wildcard' than Can who has been deployed in midfield more than anywhere else throughout his career (Germany) and was fantastic there in the recent youth internationals. The brief games he spent time there with Liverpool last season were also very nice. He's a big upgrade on Gerrard at this point in that bottom of the midfield 3 position as he has a much higher work rate and defensive ability.

Our depth, however, is ageing and I have some apprehensions over it. That's probably why I would like to see our midfield strengthened a bit. However, talking of depth, Oxlade has also been used to good effect in the deeper role in the past. Again, we have some varied options and skill sets to draw upon and these guys have been playing together for years.

I have appreciation for unity and a team that is familiar with one another. I think it's a big boon to Arsenal to have a fairly consistent core of players. Injuries seem to be a big issue for them, but yeah I think, for the most part, Liverpool are only adding a few new players to supplement what they already have so their team unity will be a lot better than the beginning of last season.

I am not sure if Giroud will be our starting striker next season. I think AW is moving towards not having a defined starting striker. He can draw upon Giroud, Welbeck, Theo (and even Alexis/Akpom) depending on how he wants to line up in a particular match. Each of them, interestingly, has a different skill set in that role, making it harder for the opposing defense to have a straight-forward counterstrategy - this was one of our biggest Achilles' over the years. Remember 'Arsenal walk the ball into the net' stuff? Then there is Özil and Aaron/Jack (also touted for a creative wide role, depending on who plays in midfield).

What stood out to me in your evaluation was the bunch of assumptions that you underplayed for your best case scenario: Milner's ability, striker signing, Firmino carrying over his form, Ings/Origi gamble. And the stuff that you might have overlooked: all new signings gelling and starting to click as a unit, which takes months.

This is one advantage Arsenal and Chelsea (and to a lesser extent, City) definitely have over the other two clubs as things stand today. And it is a big advantage. The last time there was a churn at the other clubs, Arsenal's continuity put us on top of the table for 120+ days before others overhauled that.

In view of that as another major factor, as things stand, I would say Arsenal and Chelsea are a bit ahead of the rest - but not much , mind you! Like I said in an earlier post, I believe this season will indeed be much closer!

Well, I made the comparisons based on who I figured people would think are the best candidates for the positions (Giroud for example) in a 3 on 3 comparison since, well, you can only have so many players on the field. Put Cazorla over Wilshere if you like, but I still don't think there's any real advantage there for any team. Henderson might be one of the most under-appreciated players in the PL, IMO. Milner I don't think is really a question...he's a proven commodity. You are right about my assuming Firmino will bring over his form, but even if he doesn't reach the heights he was at with Hoffenheim he still has a ton of talent. If he is as good as he was there, in theory, he'd instantly be one of the best players in the PL. So I'm not assuming that right away. Still, it's worth noting that most of the players that are going to be seeing a lot of gametime this seasons are returning players, and Liverpool got its buying done early this year so they could spend more time integrating the players. Hopefully that works out.

Still, I appreciate the discussion and lack of trolling/flaming which seems to be the common way of going about things here.

El Cujo wrote:


I agree. That said Liverpool are likely going to be more focused on scoring than they are on playing defence (to start the year at least, Rodgers showed last year he can be a bit more pragmatic when the offensive output isn't available).

It's possible, but Skrtel, Sakho and, to a lesser extent, Moreno have been playing together for a while now, and Clyne is going to provide a more solid option than Manquillo or Johnson were bringing the previous years. When you factor in that we'll have one of Can or Lucas shielding the defence as opposed to Gerrard with no legs while also having two engines in Henderson and Milner playing ahead of them I think that we can expect our defensive shape and solidity to be on a higher level than the seasons previous to this when playing with a 4 man backline. Mignolet has been a fantastic shot stopper (especially when in form) so I'm not sure getting an aging Cech is really a huge bump up from Ospina who played really well.

I definitely don't see how Coquelin is 'less of a wildcard' than Can who has been deployed in midfield more than anywhere else throughout his career (Germany) and was fantastic there in the recent youth internationals. The brief games he spent time there with Liverpool last season were also very nice. He's a big upgrade on Gerrard at this point in that bottom of the midfield 3 position as he has a much higher work rate and defensive ability.

I have appreciation for unity and a team that is familiar with one another. I think it's a big boon to Arsenal to have a fairly consistent core of players. Injuries seem to be a big issue for them, but yeah I think, for the most part, Liverpool are only adding a few new players to supplement what they already have so their team unity will be a lot better than the beginning of last season.

Well, I made the comparisons based on who I figured people would think are the best candidates for the positions (Giroud for example) in a 3 on 3 comparison since, well, you can only have so many players on the field. Put Cazorla over Wilshere if you like, but I still don't think there's any real advantage there for any team. Henderson might be one of the most under-appreciated players in the PL, IMO. Milner I don't think is really a question...he's a proven commodity. You are right about my assuming Firmino will bring over his form, but even if he doesn't reach the heights he was at with Hoffenheim he still has a ton of talent. If he is as good as he was there, in theory, he'd instantly be one of the best players in the PL. So I'm not assuming that right away. Still, it's worth noting that most of the players that are going to be seeing a lot of gametime this seasons are returning players, and Liverpool got its buying done early this year so they could spend more time integrating the players. Hopefully that works out.

Still, I appreciate the discussion and lack of trolling/flaming which seems to be the common way of going about things here.

Well, I am rarely one to troll. I prefer more sophisticated humour to potshots and derogaratory comments
Then again, each poster has his own inimitable style, which is something I find very attractive about this forum!

On topic:

I disagree on 'ageing Cech'. He's 34. Edwin van der Saar was putting in top shifts at 40! And there is no denying Cech's ability and class. He's up there with Alexis and Özil in terms of quality additions to the squad - which is why people say this is arguably the best GK we've signed after David Seaman. Coming back to Liverpool though, I agree that your defense is better than it was in the recent past. Whether it really is the best in the league, I'm afraid we'll only know in retrospect at the end of the season.

Liverpool conceded 48 and ended with a GD of +4 last season iirc. I am not convinced entirely, that Clyne and the midfield shuffle alone will bring those numbers down cosiderably. I do expect Sakho to be an improved player though.

Coquelin, imo, is less of a wildcard because he has played in the deeper mid role more for Arsenal than Can has for Liverpool. Can only had brief, albeit good, games there. It remains to be seen if Rodgers does indeed deploy him there or persists with using him as a versatile option.

As you might have noticed, I am wary of translating form/performance from NT and earlier teams for comparison in the here and now - many a player don't manage to do that. Wilshere, for example, is increasingly being used as a DM by Woy and RW by Arsenal. Di Maria is an example of a top player failing to carry him form over. Besides, playing in BuLi isn't the same as playing in PL with no winter breaks and an extra domestic competition. I am, of course, hoping that similar to Alexis, Firmino can also have a respectable first season. (Mind you, Alexis also dropped off in January-March).

I am a fan of doing the business early - especially in the aftermath of our 2011 Deadline Day trolley dash. I think United and Liverpool have both done commendably in this regard. However, in terms of shuffle, (assuming Can is moved to midfield), you also have a bit of change in the backbone of the team - maybe not as much as United, but it is not a deniable fact.

It's an intriguing melting pot of many scenarios - this gonna be goooood!

^ Well, we havent done all of our business yet. Pretty much aware if we go into the season with our existing defense, we wont do well.
1 CB is a bare minimum. Ideally a cb and a cf.

Glory wrote:^ Well, we havent done all of our business yet. Pretty much aware if we go into the season with our existing defense, we wont do well.
1 CB is a bare minimum. Ideally a cb and a cf.

Imho, that CF is actually very important, unless Wilson (?) is to play a bigger role? You have moved on two players in RvP and Falcao, plus sold Welbeck last year.

Otamendi/Ramos pursuit is well known though.

GK could be a thing too - in case the DDG situation deteriorates, more so in light of the Valdes not fitting philosophy comments. But that is more of a worst case scenario; I am sure there would be adequate plans afoot to skirt said issues.

Otherwise, we, at GL, will gladly crowdfund a bucket and a bag of quick drying cement. We will not arrange transportation to a nearby stream, since I maintain that it would be counterproductive. Doctored/photoshopped images will not fool me

guys cool down please, my head is going to burst otherwise !

Don't particularly see refusal to debate the same thing over and over again as being hipster or trolling tbh.

srigooner wrote:

Glory wrote:^ Well, we havent done all of our business yet. Pretty much aware if we go into the season with our existing defense, we wont do well.
1 CB is a bare minimum. Ideally a cb and a cf.

Imho, that CF is actually very important, unless Wilson (?) is to play a bigger role? You have moved on two players in RvP and Falcao, plus sold Welbeck last year.

Otamendi/Ramos pursuit is well known though.

GK could be a thing too - in case the DDG situation deteriorates, more so in light of the Valdes not fitting philosophy comments. But that is more of a worst case scenario; I am sure there would be adequate plans afoot to skirt said issues.

Otherwise, we, at GL, will gladly crowdfund a bucket and a bag of quick drying cement. We will not arrange transportation to a nearby stream, since I maintain that it would be counterproductive. Doctored/photoshopped images will not fool me

Hmm, have posted it earlier regarding our CF situation. Its a bit tricky one.
But in light of what happened lately my faith in LvG has somewhat restored, that he wont hesitate to shove big players out of the team if they wont perform.

What I thought was if we buy a striker rooney would be dropped back to midfield as lvg has said last season his captain will always play. So thats why there is a sense of insecurity and skepticism among united fans at the prospect of buying a new striker. If we buy someone better than rooney (the available ones are all better than rooney right now actually) they will take the 1 spot and that great midfield we acquired just recently we wont be able to see it on pitch as rooney will by default take 1 spot out of 3.

So yea I admit its a risky proposition. But then Real played last season with just 2 strikers. We also have chicharito. If chicha too is sold then sure we will have to buy a new striker.
Then if we do sell chicha, the options we have will be fellaini, who can do the job I believe, wilson and depay.

---------

Hah
By the way that wasnt a photoshopped image, It was a scene from a beautiful movie called Borgman.

HEIL MEIN REDS wrote:guys cool down please, my head is going to burst otherwise !

What! It was a perfectly nice discussion!

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Don't particularly see refusal to debate the same thing over and over again as being hipster or trolling tbh.

You're a hipster nonetheless Moal. In fact, you're a Mole-ster. You mole-st poor unsuspecting kids in GL who don't know you better

Glory wrote:
Hmm, have posted it earlier regarding our CF situation. Its a bit tricky one.
But in light of what happened lately my faith in LvG has somewhat restored, that he wont hesitate to shove big players out of the team if they wont perform.

What I thought was if we buy a striker rooney would be dropped back to midfield as lvg has said last season his captain will always play. So thats why there is a sense of insecurity and skepticism among united fans at the prospect of buying a new striker. If we buy someone better than rooney (the available ones are all better than rooney right now actually) they will take the 1 spot and that great midfield we acquired just recently we wont be able to see it on pitch as rooney will by default take 1 spot out of 3.

So yea I admit its a risky proposition. But then Real played last season with just 2 strikers. We also have chicharito. If chicha too is sold then sure we will have to buy a new striker.
Then if we do sell chicha, the options we have will be fellaini, who can do the job I believe, wilson and depay.

---------

Hah
By the way that wasnt a photoshopped image, It was a scene from a beautiful movie called Borgman.

Fellaini as a striker? Please tell me you're joking. You guys are back in the CL - the options you mention are hardly inspiring!

That said, Rooney and Chicarito would be good options to draw upon.

srigooner wrote:

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Don't particularly see refusal to debate the same thing over and over again as being hipster or trolling tbh.

You're a hipster nonetheless Moal. In fact, you're a Mole-ster. You mole-st poor unsuspecting kids in GL who don't know you better

Nah i just can't be arsed arguing about something i know damn well isn't happening lol, it's a waste of time and energy.

srigooner wrote:

Glory wrote:
Hmm, have posted it earlier regarding our CF situation. Its a bit tricky one.
But in light of what happened lately my faith in LvG has somewhat restored, that he wont hesitate to shove big players out of the team if they wont perform.

What I thought was if we buy a striker rooney would be dropped back to midfield as lvg has said last season his captain will always play. So thats why there is a sense of insecurity and skepticism among united fans at the prospect of buying a new striker. If we buy someone better than rooney (the available ones are all better than rooney right now actually) they will take the 1 spot and that great midfield we acquired just recently we wont be able to see it on pitch as rooney will by default take 1 spot out of 3.

So yea I admit its a risky proposition. But then Real played last season with just 2 strikers. We also have chicharito. If chicha too is sold then sure we will have to buy a new striker.
Then if we do sell chicha, the options we have will be fellaini, who can do the job I believe, wilson and depay.

---------

Hah
By the way that wasnt a photoshopped image, It was a scene from a beautiful movie called Borgman.

Fellaini as a striker? Please tell me you're joking. You guys are back in the CL - the options you mention are hardly inspiring!

That said, Rooney and Chicarito would be good options to draw upon.

No I am not. In fact lvg did use that tactic last season in 1 or 2 games. playing fellaini ahead of everyone else eventhough on paper he was put as an attacking mid he played as a forward.
And if he again use that, and if memphis and mata plays on either side of him, fellaini's lack of finishing and instincts can be somewhat covered as both memphis and mata can score goals.

So ideally a 4-3-3 will become a 4-3-1-2 with 2 wingers playing further up and trying to score goals and fellaini, the cf on paper dropping deep and releasing them. Its a perfectly plausible scenario.
Also because fellaini as a midfielder is of no use to us now as there are at least 5 players ahead of him. If he is still in the team his role is to play in an advanced role, thats certain. a deep lying/defensive center forward.

Giroud is a target man and excellent at linking up and bringing others into play around him. He also drops off to allow the likes of Ramsey to run in behind in the space he creates to score. Yet he is criticized heavily for being 'slow', 'immobile' and 'lacking movement'.

I am unable to see how Fellaini can do any better, more so in a role he's not used to. He used to be a DM once upon a time ffs!

He will be behind wilson and depay even if chicharito goes. So its just a contingency measure. I still think we will sign someone if we let chicha leave.
I was just stating who all can play in that position and fellaini can if the players around him can make up for his lack of scoring. Not that I want it to happen.
Last season it didnt work because last season it was young who played on the left wing. Depay is a upgrade in that aspect, i mean in terms of goals from wings (at least thats what we hope).

Temper expectations for Memphis in his first season though. It's a big step up and he tends to try and do a lot himself -- I'm sure LvG will get the best out of him and despite my dislike for where he moved he is a WC talent. If given a bit of time to learn and if he is used properly he can bring a lot from the flank.

@El Cujo - out of curiosity, how do you rate BuLi vs. PL?