Re: Pep at Bayern 2015 - two seasons in.

by Muppet Tue May 12, 2015 4:28 pm

farfan wrote:
Hapless_Hans wrote:Yep jibers. Jupp's contract ended, and Pep was available.

It's a no brainer, really.

Also apparently, if a team wins a treble they win the treble next season too.
That's what always happens right?
Everything short of that is a failure and an embarrassment for the coach..

how about not getting absolutely destroyed in the semis at home ? that would've been more acceptable .

The apologetics aren't interested in reality.

by jibers Tue May 12, 2015 4:30 pm

Muppet wrote:
farfan wrote:
Hapless_Hans wrote:Yep jibers. Jupp's contract ended, and Pep was available.

It's a no brainer, really.

Also apparently, if a team wins a treble they win the treble next season too.
That's what always happens right?
Everything short of that is a failure and an embarrassment for the coach..

how about not getting absolutely destroyed in the semis at home ? that would've been more acceptable .

The apologetics aren't interested in reality.

Nice retort. So Bayern should have held out for a guy that was reluctant to renew? I hope for the sake of your potential employees you never run a business.

by Hapless_Hans Tue May 12, 2015 4:30 pm

farfan wrote:
Hapless_Hans wrote:Yep jibers. Jupp's contract ended, and Pep was available.

It's a no brainer, really.

Also apparently, if a team wins a treble they win the treble next season too.
That's what always happens right?
Everything short of that is a failure and an embarrassment for the coach..

how about not getting absolutely destroyed in the semis at home ? that would've been more acceptable .

You think?

How about winning your league for once? That would be more acceptable either. gtfo Real fans Laughing

by VivaStPauli Tue May 12, 2015 4:31 pm

farfan wrote:
Hapless_Hans wrote:Yep jibers. Jupp's contract ended, and Pep was available.

It's a no brainer, really.

Also apparently, if a team wins a treble they win the treble next season too.
That's what always happens right?
Everything short of that is a failure and an embarrassment for the coach..

how about not getting absolutely destroyed in the semis at home ? that would've been more acceptable .

This. There has to be a room between "lol Pep is shit", which he isn't, and "everybody is hating on him because he didn't repeat the treble", which is beside the point.

Pep was in a ridiculous situation, but he also still underperformed.

by Muppet Tue May 12, 2015 4:33 pm

jibers wrote:
Muppet wrote:
farfan wrote:

how about not getting absolutely destroyed in the semis at home ? that would've been more acceptable .

The apologetics aren't interested in reality.

Nice retort. So Bayern should have held out for a guy that was reluctant to renew? I hope for the sake of your potential employees you never run a business.

Another ridiculous argument.

Heynckes wasn't even given the opportunity to come back. And yes he sure as hell deserved it.

by Hapless_Hans Tue May 12, 2015 4:34 pm

And Heynckes would have repeated the treble right?

Because that's what always happens?

by Muppet Tue May 12, 2015 4:36 pm

Yet another straw man. :facepalm:

He wouldn't have torn that team apart. That's for sure.

by VivaStPauli Tue May 12, 2015 4:36 pm

It's not about winning the treble, it's about improving, or worsening the team, and Pep sure as shit didn't improve anything. I don't think Jupp would've guaranteed you a treble either, but he also wouldn't have gotten steamrolled by Real either.

And Jupp got his retirement basically announced prematurely by Uli Jailhouse Hoeneß. After that it was either quit Bayern, or enter a slugfest.

by jibers Tue May 12, 2015 4:38 pm

Muppet wrote:
jibers wrote:
Muppet wrote:

The apologetics aren't interested in reality.

Nice retort. So Bayern should have held out for a guy that was reluctant to renew? I hope for the sake of your potential employees you never run a business.

Another ridiculous argument.

Heynckes wasn't even given the opportunity to come back. And yes he sure as hell deserved it.

They asked him to renew you clown. He refused because of the external criticism and he felt he was undervalued. The club should risk it's planning and future on the whim of one man? Clueless would be a more apt nickname for you chap.

@viva I agree with that and @Farfan I agree with the hiding last year was just ridiculous. I don't really blame him for last week's defeat tbh. I personally think the expectations the club had bringing him in were too high but with the metrics they use he has definitely underperformed. What I disagree with is when people say he is inflexible ando has no plan b. we will have to wait and see what happens by the end of his bayern tenure before we can say he has underperformed. But so far I agree. Have ridiculous expectations be prepared to be disappointed.

by Hapless_Hans Tue May 12, 2015 4:40 pm

Muppet wrote:Yet another straw man.

He wouldn't have torn that team apart. That's for sure.

In what way has Pep 'torn that team apart' ?

WTF are you talking about? Laughing

Don't think there ever has been a new high profile coach coming into a club that used the existing players to such an extent as Pep.

The thing is, it's no use talking with some people about this because their starting point is "BuLi is an easy walk in the park so let's not pay attention at all to what's happening there. Let's just turn on the TV for the CL semis and then declare coaches failures based on what we see there"

by Muppet Tue May 12, 2015 4:42 pm

@jibers

He was undervalued as they were already lining up Pep to replace him. Had they been loyal to him instead of fawning over the Hollywood option he almost certainly would've come back.

You clown.

by VivaStPauli Tue May 12, 2015 4:44 pm

No Pep definitely has his moments that show he's not a shit coach. Like when he played on the counter against Dortmund, that was bloody brilliant. And at least switching from the 3-man defense against Barca to a back four showed more flexibility than scrubs like Jogi Löw will ever show;
so he's obviously a decent coach.

But at the same time he's reduced Bayerns variety in attack, their incisiveness and directness, while at the same time having the defense crumble in his tenure, the compactness missing from his team and putting his defenders and DMs under so much pressure they just keep on making mistakes, because the system doesn't offer them support they had when Heynckes was there.

Pep isn't bad. But he's worse than Jupp (for Bayern, at least). And my dislike for him is obviously fueled in a big way by all the bootlicking he's the target of, which most of you, even the ones disagreeing with me, are not guilty of. But it's just ridiculous the way it's been reported. Pep the saviour bringing modern football to the backwards Bundesliga. Of course I'm hating on that shit.

But I also think I'm making a fair and balanced point when I argue Peps merits and flaws in a serious manner.

by Hapless_Hans Tue May 12, 2015 4:45 pm

To think Alex Ferguson, with all the great teams at his disposals, only won the CL twice in 30 years. What a failure :facepalm:

by jibers Tue May 12, 2015 4:45 pm

Muppet wrote:@jibers

He was undervalued as they were already lining up Pep to replace him. Had they been loyal to him instead of fawning over the Hollywood option he almost certainly would've come back.

You clown.

He refused to sign because his ego was bruised. That's what it comes down to. Hollywood option Laughing

I guess it shows how high in the are Pep is held if he gets this kind of backlash.

by jibers Tue May 12, 2015 4:46 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:To think Alex Ferguson, with all the great teams at his disposals, only won the CL twice in 30 years. What a failure

I said this somewhere in the last few weeks lol. But some people label him the GOAT Laughing

by izzy Tue May 12, 2015 4:46 pm

Muppet wrote:@jibers

He was undervalued as they were already lining up Pep to replace him. Had they been loyal to him instead of fawning over the Hollywood option he almost certainly would've come back.

You clown.

That's incorrect.

They wanted to renew him, but some had reservations about it since they lost every trophy possible the year before. Because of that, Jupp refused to renew and said he would consider his options at the end of the season. When he did that, Bayern went to look for alternatives.

by Muppet Tue May 12, 2015 4:47 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:
Muppet wrote:Yet another straw man.

He wouldn't have torn that team apart. That's for sure.

In what way has Pep 'torn that team apart' ?

WTF are you talking about?

Don't think there ever has been a new high profile coach coming into a club that used the existing players to such an extent as Pep.

The thing is, it's no use talking with some people about this because their starting point is "BuLi is an easy walk in the park so let's not pay attention at all to what's happening there. Let's just turn on the TV for the CL semis and then declare coaches failures based on what we see there"

Lahm->Cdm
Martinez->Cb(backup at that)
Alaba->utility man
Kroos->Alonso/Thiago
Bernat->enough said

Also failed to get the best out of Goetze and Lewa after effectively buying two titles with their purchases. His tactics have killed your chance of competing against the best of the best. In short you're far worse for having him.

by Hapless_Hans Tue May 12, 2015 4:47 pm

jibers wrote:
Hapless_Hans wrote:To think Alex Ferguson, with all the great teams at his disposals, only won the CL twice in 30 years. What a failure

I said this somewhere in the last few weeks lol. But some people label him the GOAT

As Honigstein puts it. Full of nostalgia, but without memory.

by BORUSSIA!! Tue May 12, 2015 4:49 pm

Bayern hardly got "steamrolled" by Real last year. Most of the goals came from set pieces which is unlikely to happen in most games.

As far as chances and control of the game in general play goes, it was pretty even in those semis with Real. Bayern were 2nd best and deserved to lose but it was not that big of a smashing as some people make it out to be.

There's a difference between getting beaten and thoroughly outplayed by a large scoreline and those semis with Real.

Against barca it was a worse performance, but remember Bayern did have a fair few key players missing (especially Robbery who are very important). But they shouldn't be judged on that tie until it's over.

by Muppet Tue May 12, 2015 4:50 pm

Jupp should've been given the opportunity to renew at the end of the season. End of.

by izzy Tue May 12, 2015 4:52 pm

Muppet wrote:Jupp should've been given the opportunity to renew at the end of the season. End of.

He was given the opportunity in January. He refused. End of.

Any employee that shows any sort of indecisiveness regarding their job better believe that their employers will already be out looking for a replacement.

The world of business. Simple really.

by futbol Tue May 12, 2015 5:56 pm

Why are we already talking as if he won't win 4-0 today and win the CL? hmm

by VivaStPauli Wed May 13, 2015 1:36 am

That's why.

by jibers Wed May 13, 2015 11:38 am

Comment on the guardian website about the bayern vs Barcelona tie

As a matter of principle, no team has the right to winning trophies or playing in CL Finals. Here is a reminder borrowed from a comment on another website:
Humans are both fickle & prone to myths!
You have people here criticizing Pep. But the same would have applauded him if he had his squad and continued winning (just like they did for that Porto comeback). Then, you have people that have conjured up this myth that if Jupp Heynckes had stayed, Bayern would keep winning trebles for years on-end. These are people that have chosen to remember only Bayern's post-Jan 2013 performance; they've closed out the period prior. So, let’s examine this myth about the “never-failing” Jupp:

1) Jupp has only 2 CLs in his approx. 40 years of managing clubs (97/98 & 12/13) - incl. elite sides.
2) Jupp’s first spell at Bayern ended in dismissal after winning only 4 of the first 12 BuLi games (91/92).
3) Jupp would later resign from Frankfurt after managing only a 13th place position (btw, the Frankfurt of then was not the counterfeit you watch these days).
4) Jupp would later be fired by Madrid in his 1st season due to a 4th place finish i.e. 11 points below Barcelona (granted he won the CL that year).
5) Jupp’s team Benfica was once eliminated by Celta de Vigo in a tie that included a 7:0 single game defeat (NOT aggregate).
6) Jupp was fired by Schalke when he lost 75% of the first games, thus condemning the club to the relegation zone.
7) Jupp resigned from Borussia Mönchengladbach after going 14 BuLi games WITHOUT a win.
Jupp let Dortmund surpass Bayern in the winter (11/12) and eventually beat them to the BuLi

Now, don’t get me wrong. Jupp had spells of success at the different clubs. I only highlighted his low managerial career moments to burst the bubble of those who romanticize with the illusion that he is the go-to person when things fail (including having a long injury list). It’s worth it to remember that:

i) Bayern sought Pep in 2012 while Jupp’s contract was still running & then tried to “coerce” a resignation from him; clearly, they were not content with him (mixed results, some player unrest i.e. Ribery/Robben scuffles, etc).
ii) Bayern was tired of simply being “near-achievers” (the Holland equivalent of club football) i.e. had reached CL finals twice in a space of 3 years without winning.
iii) Bayern players got wind of Jupp’s perceived mistreatment & in Jan 2013, they gelled like jam. From that point on, Bayern became the team to beat.
iv) Pep had smartly read Bayern as the sort of team that had all the ingredients, but simply lacked a winning formula. He signed on in 2012 WITHOUT knowing what would later become of the then “slightly-above-average” Bayern team.
v) Trust me, if Pep had been approached after Bayern had won the treble, he would have swiftly declined. He's way to smart NOT to know that. After a treble, the normal trend is downward (only Barcelona& Milan have mildly been exceptions)

Lastly, given hangover that was expected to follow Bayern’s treble & the latter Germany WC win (included many Bayern players) & given this season’s injury list, only an idealist would be blind to Pep’s work; he’s done well. He won a double in the 1st season and now has a BuLi (trophies that only 2 years ago had been the preserve of Dortmund). Also, consider that another elite coach (say, Mourinho) has been managing 2 multi-billion teams in the last 5 years, but has only 2 domestic league trophies (plus 1 cup) to show for it. Imagine the criticism Pep would have endured if a fully fit Bayern was eliminated in the 2nd round (forget Semis) of the CL, playing at HOME while LEADING against a 10-man PSG. Also, be realistic in expectation. Before 2013, Bayern (with all its might) had last won the CL in 2001.

The hatred of Pep knows no boundaries. As much as I don't fancy Mourinho's style of football, he is a world-class coach. However, he too does not reach CL semi-finals every year, let alone win trebles. Stop the hate. Focus on football issues.

by terrance511 Wed May 13, 2015 11:53 am

stop reading at 'let alone win trebles'

by Hapless_Hans Wed May 13, 2015 11:57 am

I think in the case of this comment the word 'peptard' is adequate Laughing

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