Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting

rwo power wrote:The problem is that people choose what they are provoked by. They could choose to get provoked by virtually everything and that means one would have to get rid of practically everything to avoid provocation.

One great caricature showed a completely white paper with the headline "Islam-approved caricature".

People need to learn not to react to perceived provocations with violence, that's everything that is needed. And it is not the responsibility of people in France to curb their own freedoms because of that.

Christians learned to live with provocative texts and pictures about Christianity, the secular rulers here had to learn to live with ridicule, too. It is not as if the Christian church didn't start out with killing blasphemers in the past. Likewise kings of the past executed people who spoke up against them too. But the people here never allowed them to silence them in the long run.  

So now it is the turn of the Islamic people to get over it and learn a more relaxed stance.

provoking is part of your culture, i can't change it

same like what killing is part of culture of extremist group that called themselves Islamic, that one too i can't change it

both groups think they do the right thing, so sad....................

we the neutral in the middle of 2 groups can't do nothing except voicing our opinion

Well, but there is a huge difference between drawing a picture and actually killing people, among them many who are not even involved. If you look at which group of people need to change their ways, it should be obvious.

guest_07 wrote:drawing the picture of the Prophet is provocation act itself

you realize all of this will happen yet still doing it, bravo on that

westerner (freedom of speech fighter) didn't care others feeling, period

king of selfish, period

You need to reassess your moral compass if you think Muslims in Nigeria killing Christians over a drawing by an Atheist publication in France for a French audience is even a little bit justified. This is not about freedom of speech and expression. This is pretty clear cut wrong.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

guest_07 wrote:drawing the picture of the Prophet is provocation act itself

you realize all of this will happen yet still doing it, bravo on that

westerner (freedom of speech fighter) didn't care others feeling, period

king of selfish, period

You need to reassess your moral compass if you think Muslims in Nigeria killing Christians over a drawing by an Atheist publication in France for a French audience is even a little bit justified. This is not about freedom of speech and expression. This is pretty clear cut wrong.

have i ever said the killing is justified

my intention is simple, if want to change something, choose the easiest one, read my previous comment

rwo power wrote:Well, but there is a huge difference between drawing a picture and actually killing people, among them many who are not even involved. If you look at which group of people need to change their ways, it should be obvious.

i know which one is the most obvious, you think to change the mentality of the psychopath is easier than normal person? that's funny...................

to me, one group did the bad thing, another group did the worst

in the end, both groups didn't make world a better place to live

Well, if you go the psychopath argumentation way, you might realize that in that case the cartoons weren't actually the issue - if there wouldn't have been the cartoons, they would have found another reason to go out and kill people. The cartoons are just a nice thing they could mention.

Groups like Boko Haram, Al Qaida, Taliban and whatever don't need cartoons to kill, rape, torture in the name of "Islam" (before you go ballistic, please note the ""). I would say this is a much bigger perversion of the picture (meant figuratively here) of Mohamed than simple drawings.

If they would stay true to their convictions that people who throw the prophet into the dirt should put to death, they should best start with themselves (although please don't take innocent others with them via suicide attacks).

rwo power wrote:Well, if you go the psychopath argumentation way, you might realize that in that case the cartoons weren't actually the issue - if there wouldn't have been the cartoons, they would have found another reason to go out and kill people. The cartoons are just a nice thing they could mention.

Groups like Boko Haram, Al Qaida, Taliban and whatever don't need cartoons to kill, rape, torture in the name of "Islam" (before you go ballistic, please note the ""). I would say this is a much bigger perversion of the picture (meant figuratively here) of Mohamed than simple drawings.

If they would stay true to their convictions that people who throw the prophet into the dirt should put to death, they should best start with themselves (although please don't take innocent others with them via suicide attacks).

my point is, if you don't provoke other religion, you actually have successfully remove 1 "good" reason from their kill list (extremist group kill list)

that is what i called a big achievement

Yeah RWO, if people want to kill, they will find a reason

Let's all just tip toe around everything so as to not make some extremists angry, let's bend over for them.


*bleep* no, if it was up to me any terrorist caught alive would spend the next 10 years being *bleep* destroyed physically, mentally, emotionally and then taken out back and finished off

Tomwin Lannister wrote:Yeah RWO, if people want to kill, they will find a reason

Let's all just tip toe around everything so as to not make some extremists angry, let's bend over for them.


*bleep* no, if it was up to me any terrorist caught alive would spend the next 10 years being *bleep* destroyed physically, mentally, emotionally and then taken out back and finished off

people like you & IS are making this world a "better" place, go on, keep provoking each other, keep killing each other

less people like you & them in this world, the better

Your pussy attitude and shit reasoning would do nothing except encourage terrorists to keep doing what they're doing

'Provoking each other'

Brb I drew something so I 'provoked' extremists to kill a large number of people some of which that had nothing to do with the incident.

Why don't you go and tell the relatives of the dead C.H staff that they should have steered clear of a drawing, because they were asking for it.


Get to *bleep* with that B.S

Tomwin Lannister wrote:Your pussy attitude and shit reasoning would do nothing except encourage terrorists to keep doing what they're doing

'Provoking each other'

Brb I drew something so I 'provoked' extremists to kill a large number of people some of which that had nothing to do with the incident.

Why don't you go and tell the relatives of the dead C.H staff that they should have steered clear of a drawing, because they were asking for it.


Get to *bleep* with that B.S

your satire make world a better place? it making more worse now

that is a fact

i don't see any benefit from it

Yeah let's stop having a sense of humour, because it might provoke extremists in to killing people

Whilst we're at it, we should probably go ahead and get rid of Churches too, we should definitely get rid of our own laws and culture, because that goes against their beliefs and we can't upset other people now can we?



What i'll do, is inform as many people as I can that I am offended by people who drive small cars.

And when somebody knowingly drives a small car (How *bleep* dare they go about their own lives the bastards) I'll go out and kill a bunch of people. Yeah sure what I done was wrong, but what they done was wrong too so that's cool.

*bleep* pathetic. That is a fact

Tomwin Lannister wrote:Yeah let's stop having a sense of humour, because it might provoke extremists in to killing people

Whilst we're at it, we should probably go ahead and get rid of Churches too, we should definitely get rid of our own laws and culture, because that goes against their beliefs and we can't upset other people now can we?



What i'll do, is inform as many people as I can that I am offended by people who drive small cars.

And when somebody knowingly drives a small car (How *bleep* dare they go about their own lives the bastards) I'll go out and kill a bunch of people. Yeah sure what I done was wrong, but what they done was wrong too so that's cool.

*bleep* pathetic. That is a fact

make joke on normal person
the consequence:
nothing happen, that person only hide his hard feeling

make joke on psychopath,
the consequence:
are you nuts???????????????

i don't know you & your culture there, but here in my country, we make joke without making others feeling hurt

Oh yeah I forgot everybody should mind what they say in case they upset some *bleep* idiot who's willing to do extremist shit.


'Make joke with Psycopath'

I'm sorry I must have missed the BBC report where the artists went to the nearest terrorist cell and mocked their beliefs face to face then proceeded to taunt them with the picture.

Tomwin Lannister wrote:Oh yeah I forgot everybody should mind what they say in case they upset some *bleep* idiot who's willing to do extremist shit.


'Make joke with Psycopath'

I'm sorry I must have missed the BBC report where the artists went to the nearest terrorist cell and mocked their beliefs face to face.

are you assume what charlie hebdo did, the pcychopath around the world can't see or hear about it?

guest_07 wrote:are you assume what charlie hebdo did, the pcychopath around the world can't see or hear about it?

If you argue like this, no one would be allowed to say or write anything anymore as there could always be some psychopath somewhere who starts killing about whatever said or written. No way. If you start to bow to psychopaths, they will feel only encouraged to go on.

One needs to show them that one isn't afraid of them and one needs to punish them if they commit crimes, so they see they won't be able to bully people to go along with their psychopath ways.

Jesus

Who gives a flying *bleep* what psychopaths heard it around the world, these particular idiots find drawings worthy of mass murder

If you want to live your life with the sole goal of never offending anybody who's not right in the head then you better sit in a small ,dark room in the middle of nowhere and see out the remainder of your days


What you're basically suggesting in your posts is

A) The picture was provocative enough to warrant murders, even if you don't like the response they had it coming

B) The 99% of 'normal' people should live their lives in accordance to how a small minority of 'psychopaths' think they should live, otherwise they're being offensive and will pay the price.

Here's a thought

These particular people found a picture offensive, and reacted as extremists do.

Some other mentally ill people would kill you, because you mocked their favourite sports

Others would do the same to you in certain places if they found out  you worshipped a different god



Have you ever had sex with a person you were not married to? Because some people believe the punishment for that should be death via stoning. So keep that in mind, if somebody ever finds out you do such a horrible thing and decide to kill you, you had it coming because you should have known better, you offended them and it's on you.

i stop here not because of run of idea, cause i'm too tired now

peace to you, my friends

Here's the thing you don't understand about democracy and why it's so dear to us... In the past, everything was run by Kings/Queens (dictators).  Instead of ability, everyone's lot in life was destined through birth. There was no hope to improve oneself unless you were born in the privileged segments of society. Also, there was no means to fight injustice because the system itself allowed for injustice with no recourse. People got fed up and rebelled. Even in the face of violent opposition, people fought for the ability to freely choose their government, to freely express their opinions, to freely choose their religion...etc.  It was very bloody, but the concept of free will prevailed.  It wasn't total or perfect.  Very flawed. But even if birth often dictates how easy or difficult one's path is... there is always a path. Every person is equally protected by the laws.

As Winston Churchill states:  “It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.”

You see, we're not trying to say we're perfect...  far from.  In fact, in France, we criticize our system harshly.  But the idea of is that our freedoms allow us to auto-criticize ourselves and, through open and free debate, we will eventually find ways to improve.  

So when anyone comes to us and tries to attack the concept of free will, we will reject them completely and, if needed, violently... it's not that we agree and like the message of Charlie Hebdo.  As i've stated, i think their content is rubbish.  BUT they have the right to print their content within our laws.  There's absolutely no room for compromise in regards to this.

sportsczy wrote:Here's the thing you don't understand about democracy and why it's so dear to us... In the past, everything was run by Kings/Queens (dictators).  Instead of ability, everyone's lot in life was destined through birth.  There was no hope to improve oneself unless you were born in the privileged segments of society.  Also, there was no means to fight injustice because the system itself allowed for injustice with no recourse.  People got fed up and rebelled.  Even in the face of violent opposition, people fought for the ability to freely choose their government, to freely express their opinions, to freely choose their religion...etc.  It was very bloody, but the concept of free will prevailed.  It wasn't total or perfect.  Very flawed.  But even if birth often dictates how easy or difficult one's path is... there is always a path.  Every person is equally protected by the laws.

As Winston Churchill states:  “It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.”

You see, we're not trying to say we're perfect...  far from.  In fact, in France, we criticize our system harshly.  But the idea of is that our freedoms allow us to auto-criticize ourselves and, through open and free debate, we will eventually find ways to improve.  

So when anyone comes to us and tries to attack the concept of free will, we will reject them completely and, if needed, violently... it's not that we agree and like the message of Charlie Hebdo.  As i've stated, i think their content is rubbish.  BUT they have the right to print their content within our laws.  There's absolutely no room for compromise in regards to this.

ok...................

but in my life principle, the end doesn't justifies the means

charlie hebdo intention maybe "good", but the method to me, i considered it as unwise

that's are many thing you can choose to draw a satire on Islam, why choose the most controversy one, that's unwise to me

there's no picking and choosing with free will... it's all or nothing.  If you start censorship of things you consider "unwise", then it's not free will.

Everything the US revolution stood for was considered "unwise" by the British... same with the French revolution and others.

Heck, Charlie Hebdo had a drawing a couple of years back showing a priest sodomizing the Pope.  You didn't see Christians going crazy about it lol.  Nothing.  What happened?  Nobody noticed.

All this is empowering Charlie Hebdo more than anything else.

guest_07 wrote:but in my life principle, the end doesn't justifies the means

charlie hebdo intention maybe "good", but the method to me, i considered it as unwise

that's are many thing you can choose to draw a satire on Islam, why choose the most controversy one, that's unwise to me

It is not a question or wise or unwise - it is the question that they are allowed to at all.

If people don't like it, say or write so, but do not try to silence them violently by injuring or killing them.

There are always things fanatical criminals will dislike - the cartoons are only one thing. And we have one figure of speech in Germany that says "Wehret den Anfängen", meaning you have to clasp down on things when they are in the beginning as they will get worse and more difficult to fight against if they grow bigger.

What would be next if we allow others to silence us - the rights of women to go out alone without a veil? The right of homosexuals to live together? The right of people to sit outside and hold hands or kiss each other? The right of women to drive cars? The right of women to get education?

It is vital that we fight against people who try to force their beliefs and ways upon us and that try to curb the freedoms we achieved in long and bloody battles. And as we are used to long and bloody battles for freedom, these terrorists will not make us bow down, ever.

sportsczy wrote:there's no picking and choosing with free will... it's all or nothing.  If you start censorship of things you consider "unwise", then it's not free will.

Everything the US revolution stood for was considered "unwise" by the British... same with the French revolution and others.

Heck, Charlie Hebdo had a drawing a couple of years back showing a priest sodomizing the Pope.  You didn't see Christians going crazy about it lol.  Nothing.  What happened?  Nobody noticed.

All this is empowering Charlie Hebdo more than anything else.

do you expect this thing will happen when doing this provocation in the first place?

the warning was already there when the denmark media did it a few years ago

rwo power wrote:

guest_07 wrote:but in my life principle, the end doesn't justifies the means

charlie hebdo intention maybe "good", but the method to me, i considered it as unwise

that's are many thing you can choose to draw a satire on Islam, why choose the most controversy one, that's unwise to me

It is not a question or wise or unwise - it is the question that they are allowed to at all.

If people don't like it, say or write so, but do not try to silence them violently by injuring or killing them.

There are always things fanatical criminals will dislike - the cartoons are only one thing. And we have one figure of speech in Germany that says "Wehret den Anfängen", meaning you have to clasp down on things when they are in the beginning as they will get worse and more difficult to fight against if they grow bigger.

What would be next if we allow others to silence us - the rights of women to go out alone without a veil? The right of homosexuals to live together? The right of people to sit outside and hold hands or kiss each other? The right of women to drive cars? The right of women to get education?

It is vital that we fight against people who try to force their beliefs and ways upon us and that try to curb the freedoms we achieved in long and bloody battles. And as we are used to long and bloody battles for freedom, these terrorist will not make us bow down, ever.

by drawing the "Prophet", what is the message behind it?

guest_07 wrote:do you expect this thing will happen when doing this provocation in the first place?

the warning was already there when the denmark media did it a few years ago

Again - the warning is irrelevant. We are exercising our rights of free expression and as sports said 'free will' - and no terrorist can make us stop in that respect. And the more terrorists try so, the louder this voice will get. I guess that is what they don't understand.

by drawing the "Prophet", what is the message behind it?

Freedom of expression within our laws

The violence was incited by others who claim to be followers of the peaceful religion if Islam.

And the satire was originally pointed at exactly this fact: that violence was committed in the name of the Islam and the prophet (hence that original Danish cartoon with a bomb as turbane worn by Mohamed). The irony is that by the violence that was the answer they only proved that the cartoon was spot on.

If they wouldn't have reacted on the cartoon and just would have said "See, you are wrong, we are peaceful after all", nothing would have happened and they would actually have underlined that the Islam is really peaceful, but by reacting with bombs and murder, they just proved the point the cartoonists made.