Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting

I think it is well explained. After that, being offended is a choice.

As i said in earlier posts, bums can only obtain glory by being thugs. Most of these terrorists in France and those who joined Daech are precisely that. Guys who smoke, drink, steal but then will kill you for disrespecting the prophet. Come on. Extremists entertain the communautarism as a necessity, which in the worst minds it leads to hating France. I doubt these guys are interested in islam for its sprirtuality and more as resistance towards oppression, but it's still the tool used by jihadis to brainwash them. As religion of prestige using islam supremacy as supposed motive makes their thuggery more acceptable in their minds.

Take that guy Abdoullakh Anzorov who beheaded the history teacher. To get brainwashed like this he was very weak and dumb person yet he wanted glory. That's where it ends for me, whatever faith he had was not really islam, it was a mix of bad feelings leading to a moral disaster.

I actually didn't "read" his speech, I watched it live. And the very second he said the following sentence, I knew all hell would break loose:

We will not disavow the cartoons, the drawings, even if others recoil. We will continue. We will continue

Moderate Muslims wouldn't even give him the satisfaction of a second glance, but the easily provoked Muslims who see the prophet as untouchable and should never be insulted will inevitably be angered by it. And this was coming from the president, someone who should be seeking to unite people not divide them. That wasn't the smartest thing to say. Like I said earlier, he could've easily said the same thing (that they will continue the drawings) but word it intelligently in a way not to anger them. Instead he recklessly word it in the perfect way to get a rise out of them and later on displayed those cartoons on big building. It's like he's deliberately challenging them to react and it's not an approach a high-ranked individual who truly seeks to keep the country and the world united would follow.

Of course his comments on November, 6th about Islam being in crisis among other things didn't help either. But having said all that, and even if Macron can be quite dumb sometimes, I wish that some Muslims weren't this easily provoked. I wish they had completely ignored him from the beginning and not revolt every time an attention-seeking individual criticizes Islam.

Warrior wrote:I think it is well explained. After that, being offended is a choice.

As i said in earlier posts, bums can only obtain glory by being thugs. Most of these terrorists in France and those who joined Daech are precisely that. Guys who smoke, drink, steal but then will kill you for disrespecting the prophet. Come on. Extremists entertain the communautarism as a necessity, which in the worst minds it leads to hating France. I doubt these guys are interested in islam for its sprirtuality and more as resistance towards oppression, but it's still the tool used by jihadis to brainwash them. As religion of prestige using islam supremacy as supposed motive makes their thuggery more acceptable in their minds.

Take that guy Abdoullakh Anzorov who beheaded the history teacher. To get brainwashed like this he was very weak and dumb person yet he wanted glory. That's where it ends for me, whatever faith he had was not really islam, it was a mix of bad feelings leading to a moral disaster.

But they still do? So why do they do that?

Why don't we see this among Christians or Hindus who are the biggest or the next biggest in terms of immigration abroad?

It's touchy but we have to address it for the world to solve the problem and that requires equal help from Muslims rather than them fighting back at every instance or choosing battles based only on their preferred beliefs which hugely include a bias (not disrespecting historical treatment the majority innocents have suffered). Its a collective effort.

Warrior wrote:I think it is well explained. After that, being offended is a choice.

As i said in earlier posts, bums can only obtain glory by being thugs. Most of these terrorists in France and those who joined Daech are precisely that. Guys who smoke, drink, steal but then will kill you for disrespecting the prophet. Come on. Extremists entertain the communautarism as a necessity, which in the worst minds it leads to hating France. I doubt these guys are interested in islam for its sprirtuality and more as resistance towards oppression, but it's still the tool used by jihadis to brainwash them. As religion of prestige using islam supremacy as supposed motive makes their thuggery more acceptable in their minds.

Take that guy Abdoullakh Anzorov who beheaded the history teacher. To get brainwashed like this he was very weak and dumb person yet he wanted glory. That's where it ends for me, whatever faith he had was not really islam, it was a mix of bad feelings leading to a moral disaster.

Honestly, bravo! This is coming from someone who's not even Muslim or even is coming from a Muslim background and yet you have an understanding attitude that I haven't seen even in Muslims between themselves.

I wish we had more people like you. I wish there were more people out there like you who understand that these terrorists aren't really muslims. They are thugs who have spent their entire lives doing things that are not allowed in the Muslim faith, but in a span of two weeks, they grow a beard and magically start fighting in the name of Islam and shouting conveniently allahou akbar when they get caught by the police and the cameras are rolling. But unfortunately, it takes a certain IQ to be able to understand all that.

+1

The Demon of Carthage wrote:I actually didn't "read" his speech, I watched it live. And the very second he said the following sentence, I knew all hell would break loose:

We will not disavow the cartoons, the drawings, even if others recoil. We will continue. We will continue

Moderate Muslims wouldn't even give him the satisfaction of a second glance, but the easily provoked Muslims who see the prophet as untouchable and should never be insulted will inevitably be angered by it. And this was coming from the president, someone who should be seeking to unite people not divide them. That wasn't the smartest thing to say. Like I said earlier, he could've easily said the same thing (that they will continue the drawings) but word it intelligently in a way not to anger them. Instead he recklessly word it in the perfect way to get a rise out of them and later on displayed those cartoons on big building. It's like he's deliberately challenging them to react and it's not an approach a high-ranked individual who truly seeks to keep the country and the world united would follow.

Of course his comments on November, 6th about Islam being in crisis among other things didn't help either. But having said all that, and even if Macron can be quite dumb sometimes, I wish that some Muslims weren't this easily provoked. I wish they had completely ignored him from the beginning and not revolt every time an attention-seeking individual criticizes Islam.

You are basically asking France to forgo its values wrt to religion because a population that makes 7% of their total + the refugees who get asylum easily inside France - that gets offended and starts killing people unlike the others?

How do you stop it then? People getting stabbed is nothing new in France, this speech is just something that has been coming since 2012?

For me who neither Christian or Muslim or hell even religious, your argument is literally the same as categorizing a white person who shoots up a school as mentally challenged. You are avoiding touching the deeper issues.

Nishankly wrote:Why don't we see this among Christians or Hindus who are the biggest or the next biggest in terms of immigration abroad?

To be fair all hindus i know (and i know more than you would think) are pretty chill, they don't give a single fuck, we don't talk of racism and stuff. You would know more than me.

Christians, well the fraud of this religion has been well exposed even amongst the believers. Christian terrorists are far-righters who don't understand how oppressive to their precious liberty the catholic church actually is, if in position of power.

In islam, it seems a significantly higher % of muslims are textbook believers and they give symbolic meaning in violence. Why ? i hope people who know tell me

That's my theory, for the few it's worth. I don't think it has something to do with Quran being easier to manipulate people with than the Bible. Nor that intrinsically islam is worse than any other religion, it's all fables to me. People ridiculize Rael but they'll never act the same with an imam, in the end it's the same thing. Spiritually with hardly believable mysticism related to it.

I get that but I have a massive problem with pandering rather than solving. That's just me, the current scenario, things would only get worse with more refugees and unstable situations in the developing world, and I know it coming from a country where religion is an issue and as someone who has seen a fair share of blood and personal loss albeit not as personal as some of you. But what I do know is that if you keep quiet or try to gratify a group, it gets worse.

Pedram wrote:
But nobody is asking France to "forgo" its values, people are saying Macron should've been more considerate when he's talking about a religion with one billion followers, the way he said it looked like a cheap rallying cry for nutjobs to incite even more hatred toward its followers.

Here is the Google translation of the text posted by Nish, it has grammar mistakes and english is a less precise language but it's clear he meant the opposite

Spoiler:

Merci Warrior.

Nishankly wrote:

The Demon of Carthage wrote:I actually didn't "read" his speech, I watched it live. And the very second he said the following sentence, I knew all hell would break loose:

We will not disavow the cartoons, the drawings, even if others recoil. We will continue. We will continue

Moderate Muslims wouldn't even give him the satisfaction of a second glance, but the easily provoked Muslims who see the prophet as untouchable and should never be insulted will inevitably be angered by it. And this was coming from the president, someone who should be seeking to unite people not divide them. That wasn't the smartest thing to say. Like I said earlier, he could've easily said the same thing (that they will continue the drawings) but word it intelligently in a way not to anger them. Instead he recklessly word it in the perfect way to get a rise out of them and later on displayed those cartoons on big building. It's like he's deliberately challenging them to react and it's not an approach a high-ranked individual who truly seeks to keep the country and the world united would follow.

Of course his comments on November, 6th about Islam being in crisis among other things didn't help either. But having said all that, and even if Macron can be quite dumb sometimes, I wish that some Muslims weren't this easily provoked. I wish they had completely ignored him from the beginning and not revolt every time an attention-seeking individual criticizes Islam.

You are basically asking France to forgo its values wrt to religion because a population that makes 7% of their total + the refugees who get asylum easily inside France - that gets offended and starts killing people unlike the others?

How do you stop it then? People getting stabbed is nothing new in France, this speech is just something that has been coming since 2012?

Please point me to where I said or even insinuated that France should and I quote :"forgo its values wrt to religion because a population that makes 7% of their total + the refugees who get asylum easily inside France - that gets offended and starts killing people unlike the others?".

I'd suggest you go back and read again what I said because I specifically wrote the opposite. I said and I quote:

He should've said that while he completely understands and respects what Muslims see as sacred, France's secularness and freedom of speech are the values upon which the country was built and that nobody deserves to die just because they have said something that might be deemed as insensitive or offensive by others.

Now, to address your points. It was never about percentage, although your percentage was slightly inaccurate because in reality the Muslim population in France is estimated to be 8.8% which equates to almost 5761000. That's half the population of Tunisia.

Second, your first sentence seems to suggest that all the Muslim population is getting offended and killing people. That's a widely incaccute and unfair generalizations. The striking majority of those Muslims are stand-up individuals who are constantly helping France's economy.

Third, just because a thug who had never prayed once in his life decides to grow a beard and shout Allahou akbar right before killing someone, doesn't necessarily mean that he's a Muslim or that the crime he committed was Islam-related.

How do we stop it? First of all, you need to understand that the crimes France are suffering from right now are always being committed every single day throughout the Muslim world. It only gets more publicized when it happens in the West, but be sure that we're suffering from them just as much as you do (actually we're suffering more from them than anybody else). So if Islam was truly the driving factor behind their killings, they wouldn't be killing Muslims as well.

The first steps to solving this is to stop believing that Islam is pushing them to do these crimes and treat them like terrorists who only want to terrorize people and create division. If I was Macron, I would unite everybody behind me and make everybody realize, even the most sensitive, that they belong to France just as much as anybody else and that those thugs don't represent nobody but themselves. When you integrate everybody and instill into them the sense that they belong to the same family, the radicalization of youth by extremists will dramatically decrease. Because make no mistake, those people only thrive on the hate and resentment young people have towards a system they feel is neglecting and segregating them.

Macron has no other choice but to say things like "we will keep on drawing cartoons" even if it provokes the extremists, anyways they can hardly be more cranked than they currently are. Words like these divide the wise from the fool, not the white french from the minorities.

As president he must show his people not to be afraid in these troubled times, it's not an easy task.

sportsczy wrote:

McLewis wrote:This doesn't seem to happen anywhere else other than France and there are a lot of other countries with very large Muslim populations.

Why does this continue to happen in France specifically? I'm not particularly well educated on this yet.

No integration whatsoever.  Muslim immigrants have their own neighborhoods mostly.  You want systematic racism...  the US is a paradise compared to what goes on in France.  You can't even get into a good University or get a top job unless you look a certain way and your name is within norms.

Think of what's going on in the inner cities in the US... multiply that by a million... and add religious fundamentalism to spice things up. Replace slavery with colonialist oppression.

That's why the US message this summer resonated in so many places. This isn't only a US problem at all.

You guys need to read this. Sports and I have spent substantial time in France and he is 100% correct.

The Demon of Carthage wrote:

Nishankly wrote:

The Demon of Carthage wrote:I actually didn't "read" his speech, I watched it live. And the very second he said the following sentence, I knew all hell would break loose:



Moderate Muslims wouldn't even give him the satisfaction of a second glance, but the easily provoked Muslims who see the prophet as untouchable and should never be insulted will inevitably be angered by it. And this was coming from the president, someone who should be seeking to unite people not divide them. That wasn't the smartest thing to say. Like I said earlier, he could've easily said the same thing (that they will continue the drawings) but word it intelligently in a way not to anger them. Instead he recklessly word it in the perfect way to get a rise out of them and later on displayed those cartoons on big building. It's like he's deliberately challenging them to react and it's not an approach a high-ranked individual who truly seeks to keep the country and the world united would follow.

Of course his comments on November, 6th about Islam being in crisis among other things didn't help either. But having said all that, and even if Macron can be quite dumb sometimes, I wish that some Muslims weren't this easily provoked. I wish they had completely ignored him from the beginning and not revolt every time an attention-seeking individual criticizes Islam.

You are basically asking France to forgo its values wrt to religion because a population that makes 7% of their total + the refugees who get asylum easily inside France - that gets offended and starts killing people unlike the others?

How do you stop it then? People getting stabbed is nothing new in France, this speech is just something that has been coming since 2012?

Please point me to where I said or even insinuated that France should and I quote :"forgo its values wrt to religion because a population that makes 7% of their total + the refugees who get asylum easily inside France - that gets offended and starts killing people unlike the others?".

I'd suggest you go back and read again what I said because I specifically wrote the opposite. I said and I quote:

He should've said that while he completely understands and respects what Muslims see as sacred, France's secularness and freedom of speech are the values upon which the country was built and that nobody deserves to die just because they have said something that might be deemed as insensitive or offensive by others.

Now, to address your points. It was never about percentage, although your percentage was slightly inaccurate because in reality the Muslim population in France is estimated to be 8.8% which equates to almost 5761000. That's half the population of Tunisia.

Second, your first sentence seems to suggest that all the Muslim population is getting offended and killing people. That's a widely incaccute and unfair generalizations. The striking majority of those Muslims are stand-up individuals who are constantly helping France's economy.

Third, just because a thug who had never prayed once in his life decides to grow a beard and shout Allahou akbar right before killing someone, doesn't necessarily mean that he's a Muslim or that the crime he committed was Islam-related.

How do we stop it? First of all, you need to understand that the crimes France are suffering from right now are always being committed every single day throughout the Muslim world. It only gets more publicized when it happens in the West, but be sure that we're suffering from them just as much as you do (actually we're suffering more from them than anybody else). So if Islam was truly the driving factor behind their killings, they wouldn't be killing Muslims as well.

The first steps to solving this is to stop believing that Islam is pushing them to do these crimes and treat them like terrorists who only want to terrorize people and create division. If I was Macron, I would unite everybody behind me and make everybody realize, even the most sensitive, that they belong to France just as much as anybody else and that those thugs don't represent nobody but themselves. When you integrate everybody and instill into them the sense that they belong to the same family, the radicalization of youth by extremists will dramatically decrease. Because make no mistake, those people only thrive on the hate and resentment young people have towards a system they feel is neglecting and segregating them.

If you read my posts above you would notice I am not generalizing the entire population and have been vocal about what Muslims face in the world outside their home country. You choose this post 4 posts in, with that wording to reply to, I will accept I didn't add the buffer to the 4th post.

I don't agree with your examples. Again you ignore how my posts have been vocally towards for what Muslims face not only in their home countries but abroad as well. Just read back how I always take the time to distinguish.

Coming back to your solution, I again put forward the example of a mentally white dude shooting up school and the political discourse around other things rather than gun laws. The issue is deeper and the longer we avoid that, these guys will keep putting down the entire religion that refuses to address its own problems.

It’s not the religion. Nishankly and the others in this thread, you guys should really educate yourself on france’s colonial history. Did you know that France actually imported millions of us to work in their factories and we fought alongside them in world war 1/2 and Vietnam?

stop being sheep. These people aren’t religious. They are thugs from the ghetto (banuile) with in their eyes, no hope for upwards mobility. No hope for a white collar job, because France will literally not let you attend school if your name is Ben youssef or el Hadi. They won’t hire you if your name is Mohammed. They killed millions of Algerians in my country. France created this problem and they’re doing a terrible job of blaming it on Islam, and some of you are falling for it!!!!

Nishankly wrote:I again put forward the example of a mentally white dude shooting up school and the political discourse around other things rather than gun laws. The issue is deeper and the longer we avoid that, these guys will keep putting down the entire religion that refuses to address its own problems.

Your analogy in my opinion is unsound because if you hypothetically removed guns from the world tomorrow, there would be not a single gun-related crime in the world. However, if you removed Islam from the world tomorrow, those terrorists would find another belief system to hide behind to keep spreading terror.

Okay, I am just concerned as to how you have completely ignored the topic that I brought up which was the Islamic teachings at the grassroots level whether in Afghanistan, India or France and I still feel albeit only speaking to 20-30 Algerian French, much more Moroccans and much less Tunisians who are my close friends (Been in France for 3 years now), again comparing history when they are in a situation quite different now from 20 years ago especially in France (They comparing about their history and freedom now) but I regress, I do agree you have much more experience when it comes to Islam in France.

FennecFox7 wrote:They killed millions of Algerians in my country.

What's the year when this sadly happened?

Nishankly wrote:

FennecFox7 wrote:They killed millions of Algerians in my country.

What's the year when this sadly happened?

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/9/13/france-admits-torture-during-algerias-war-of-independence

I'll also add to what Fennec said... this, and none of the terrorism overall, has anything to do with the religion.  It's a subversion of Islam for personal gain.

It resonates with ghetto kids because they have nothing to lose and are hopeless.  These people make them feel important instead of being nobodies.

Now, this doesn't excuse AT ALL terrorist violence, murders or anything like that.  That's obscene.  But it does explain why a segment of the population is ripe for brainwashing and acting crazy.

It's very hard for people in the Muslim communities to go to the police.  Like in the US, there is no trust or relationship there.  Also, if you're a "rat", you've basically signed your own death sentence and likely your family's as well.

This problem has a lot of layers and history.  It won't be resolved overnight.  BUT STEP 1 is recognizing there's a problem and reaching out to the community.  The authorities need to give a roadmap for the community to safely identify these thugs and root them out. France hasn't even done that.

Lastly, nobody feels "French" in these neighborhoods. There is no loyalty to the country. They feel like refugees. So you can't call for national pride when there is none.

It's really a big problem.

sportsczy wrote:

Nishankly wrote:

FennecFox7 wrote:They killed millions of Algerians in my country.

What's the year when this sadly happened?

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/9/13/france-admits-torture-during-algerias-war-of-independence

1954-62. As I said in my previous posts, the world has changed and so have demographics of these preparator countries.

Algeria wasn't the only country that lost of innocent lives millions due to colonialism and Islam not the only religion. But anyways.

Not sure if this was posted before

Former Malaysian prime minister Mahathir Mohamad has stoked anger in Europe for saying Muslims "have a right to kill millions of French people"

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20201029-malaysian-ex-pm-mahathir-says-muslims-have-right-to-kill-french


peace & love

The key point as I pointed out earlier in this thread is, the ones criticising Islamic fundamentalism cannot mix that with Islam itself and normal Muslims who do follow by the context of the book.

I say this as someone who isn't a Muslim or of that background. But the theology behind the book, metaphorical aside comes down to some basic principles. If Islam did reflect what how such terrorists should be, rest assured we'd have a smaller Muslim population or if not a population of total degenerates but as we know, the bad seeds (only come to this conclusion as of recent) are highlighted more than the good ones. Yes many double standards exist by Muslims in which they will drink alcohol but still refrain from Pork as if it will send them to hell, to their expectations of how to be treated in western countries, while not acknowledging how other religions are treated in their own. But once again I cannot stress how important it is to highlight the fact, that the bad examples will naturally be highlighted.


Any form of extremism be it Muslim, Homosexual, Right or left or any cult simply cannot be taken seriously nor should it be paid attention to.

Warrior wrote:https://www.nouvelobs.com/mort-de-samuel-paty/20201027.OBS35285/au-bangladesh-40-000-manifestants-marchent-dans-dacca-contre-emmanuel-macron.html

40K people in Bangladesh protesting for a boycott of France, asking to "punish" president Macron because showing caricatures of Muhammad makes them followers of Satan

They might not be terrorists but for them, beheading Samuel Paty was necessary evil. Islam is fine by itself, it's islamism and jihadis that are a cancer.

Saw this. Amuses me how these fucks don't have the same energy when Saudi bombs the shit out of Yemen.

This sounds like one of those "What would Jesus do?" situations that pops up in Christianity. Only with Muhammad. What would he do about people making pictures of him?

It seems far-fetched he'd kill them or order them killed. Why would he? Which means his supporters have taken on this responsibility on their own.

Then again, I'm not Muslim, so the above is supposition and speculation.