Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting

Alarming words by Obama today.  Congress is passing a bill to re-introduce and even toughen sanctions on Iran.  Obama said:

"I will veto this bill if it is presented me.  I am asking for patience in the next several months to see if we can solve a big problem without resorting potentially to war."

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/01/16/politics/cameron-obama-press-conference/index.html

Things are REALLY getting extreme now.  It seems that either the West gets the resolutions it seeks or it will take heavy military action to resolve the situations.  No more waiting around.

I hope things work out.  A war would be disastrous for a lot of reasons... but i think the West are set to not all any extremists to have the ability to create a nuclear weapon.  The past year and recent events have shown that the extremist have the means to perhaps use such a weapon.

Damn.

sportsczy wrote:Are you really justifying current terrorist actions by referring to events that happened at least 150 years ago and before... come on now.

In terms of Algeria... you don't want me to correct you there dude.  You know i've spent a lot of time there.  I have no desire to hurt you or anyone else's feelings.  I loved it there but there are lot of problems and most of them are now self-inflicted.

I know that. After the war, pretty much everything went wrong. The wrong people went in power, a civil war ensued, etc. Our family is the "rich" part of algeria, if you want to be specific, because we work hard in school, are educated,  and make quite a bit of money as a result of moving abroad. but the majority of the country is stuck with mediocre education. and the french weren't so kind to us before. You know as well as i do that the french were horrific in the revolution in algeria. BUT, I could care less about french people now. Because I'm not gonna paint french people with a single brush, and there is more to you guys then just mindless colonialism

I mean, instead of calling me algerian, people call me amazigh/arab mixed. The *bleep* is that supposed to mean? To be honest, yeah, they hate themselves over there

BTW, I'm not justifying the shooting. IF it were up to me, Religion wouldn't exist. But sadly that's not the world we live in.

biggest thing is the awful corruption... Algeria has the most oil of any country in Africa bar Nigeria and nothing is spent on improving the country other than for the military. It's an absolute shame.

Love the people, culture and food though. Went to the Roman ruins, spearfished in the sea and biked in the desert too... so not just Algiers.

Like almost everywhere in the world, people are people.

sportsczy wrote:biggest thing is the awful corruption... Algeria has the most oil of any country in Africa bar Nigeria and nothing is spent on improving the country other than for the military. It's an absolute shame.

Love the people, culture and food though. Went to the Roman ruins, spearfished in the sea and biked in the desert too... so not just Algiers.

Like almost everywhere in the world, people are people.

My uncle is a captain in the military, which is basically right below general, so I know what you mean. The government steals oil from the people and uses it for the military, I know. We always talk about it. It's really sad; our country could've looked like dubai, probably even better due to the natural beauty already in the atlas mountains. Repressive regimes never stay. Just gotta wait a few more generations..

And besides Algeria is one of saddest witness of Islamic terrorism.

It afflicted this country in 90s years,  basically we might say that  the first bud of Islamic terrorism was born recently in Algeria in 90s, and it was an awful camuge.

The  blizzard of Isamic  terrorism in 90's years produced 100 000 dead in Algeria ( yes, 100 000 ...... a bloody decade) , basically ten thousand deaths per year, and this happened under the total  indifference of the West and Europe.

This testifies futher how Europe and West care about the "democracy" only if there are "particular" conditions for it .

the Muslim people of Algeria was left alone by   intellectuals, politicians, religious men of the whole  Europe, as if the question does not concern us, as it was an internal problem of a world that does not belong to us, nor involved us. Yes, it doesn't care us. If it doesn't touch our interests.

Bentalha massacre , 1997.

Algeria was never able to revive after the indipendence for different reasons.

sportsczy wrote:

Lord Spencer wrote:

sportsczy wrote:Well the problem in Iran is that there's no separation between Religion and State... that's critical for anything to work.  The imams who run things there are also radical  Those few places in the middle east where the State, although influenced by Islam, is not same as the religion (UAE, Qatar, etc.)... things tend to work ok.

Which is why Rouhani's is going to be an important figure in Iranian history moving forward. He severely reduced the power of the clergy, and is in fact moving Iran forward in very important fronts.

As for Qatar and the UAE, I would mostly say their current position is due to their small-size and wealth. Even though they are relatively stable in the region, they also funded extremist groups and have a lot t answer for regarding the current ISIS debacle (especially Qatar).

Rouhani can't do a thing unless Khamenei allows him to... and the only reason Rouhani is in power and given some rope to work with is that Iran was in financial ruin.  They needed to trick the US into thinking that they were making progress so that the sanctions were eased:  mission accomplished with our donkey president who is Obama.  As soon as they have money in the bank again, Rouhani will be reigned back in and all will go back to what it was.

Iran is on the verge of another revolution. Despite what US thinks of Iran, they are the only Islamic state which has the most amount of liberal youth that are becoming more and more moderate with each year. They think differently, and they act differently. The time for Khomeneis is done and I'd be surprised if their power doesn't end up like the queen's. Rouhani is a good man who understands what the country is going through. He cares about education. Women have a higher University entry rate than men over there. They want to advance in technology and medicine and become a fully democratic state and end the partial theocracy which still exists.

Give it few more years and if they don't get heavily sanctioned, they will be better off than most Arab nations.

RealGunner wrote:

sportsczy wrote:

Lord Spencer wrote:


Which is why Rouhani's is going to be an important figure in Iranian history moving forward. He severely reduced the power of the clergy, and is in fact moving Iran forward in very important fronts.

As for Qatar and the UAE, I would mostly say their current position is due to their small-size and wealth. Even though they are relatively stable in the region, they also funded extremist groups and have a lot t answer for regarding the current ISIS debacle (especially Qatar).

Rouhani can't do a thing unless Khamenei allows him to... and the only reason Rouhani is in power and given some rope to work with is that Iran was in financial ruin.  They needed to trick the US into thinking that they were making progress so that the sanctions were eased:  mission accomplished with our donkey president who is Obama.  As soon as they have money in the bank again, Rouhani will be reigned back in and all will go back to what it was.

Iran is on the verge of another revolution. Despite what US thinks of Iran, they are the only Islamic state which has the most amount of liberal youth that are becoming more and more moderate with each year. They think differently, and they act differently. The time for Khomeneis is done and I'd be surprised if their power doesn't end up like the queen's. Rouhani is a good man who understands what the country is going through. He cares about education. Women have a higher University entry rate than men over there. They want to advance in technology and medicine and become a fully democratic state and end the partial theocracy which still exists.

Give it few more years and if they don't get heavily sanctioned, they will be better off than most Arab nations.

Everything you said there can be applied to a large number of Arab nations.

Hell, even the backwards Saudi Arabia has one of the largest female universities in the world which brings in women from all corners of the globe.

The difference is if the Iranians ever stand up to their government the west will be there to help. If moderates tried to overthrow a place like Saudi Arabia the west would actively help the kingdom suppress them. It is a basic example of the unfairness in the world today.

Betty La Fea wrote:The difference is if the Iranians ever stand up to their government the west will be there to help. If moderates tried to overthrow a place like Saudi Arabia the west would actively help the kingdom suppress them. It is a basic example of the unfairness in the world today.

And I really hope this stops. We should've stayed out of Iran in the times of the Shah, we shouldn't have propped up Mubarak in Egypt etc. etc. - cynical Realpolitik is a short term strategy at best.

Well the Shah got into power because of the US...  Mossadegh had overtaken the country after the last Shah's father passed and was in the process of nationalizing the oil reserves (rights owned by the West).  That in itself was ok... but when Iran started to drift towards the USSR, his death certificate was signed.  The CIA assassinated him and put his son in power as the new Shah.

The issue with Iran is that, in recent history, it keeps choosing the losing side... it picked the Axis powers over the Allied powers in WW2, then the USSR over the US and now extremism over pragmatism.  You can't succeed like that.  You need to understand how the game is played and win within the game as opposed to trying and change the game...

just to get back to topic... I read up a bit on Charlie Hebdo in terms of its content. It was truly an utter garbage paper. That doesn't justify killing people by any means. But the journal itself wasn't worth the paper it was being printed on... you talk about far left. wow.

Natalie Portman wrote:Spare a thought for Marx/Christopher Hitchens.

these guys realized what a poison religion is before most others.

Hope I'll be alive to see the day all religions wiped off the world. Every single one of them.

I'm all for that.

RealGunner wrote:

Iran is on the verge of another revolution. Despite what US thinks of Iran, they are the only Islamic state which has the most amount of liberal youth that are becoming more and more moderate with each year. They think differently, and they act differently. The time for Khomeneis is done and I'd be surprised if their power doesn't end up like the queen's. Rouhani is a good man who understands what the country is going through. He cares about education. Women have a higher University entry rate than men over there. They want to advance in technology and medicine and become a fully democratic state and end the partial theocracy which still exists.

Give it few more years and if they don't get heavily sanctioned, they will be better off than most Arab nations.

Historically Iran's always been a country much more affiliated with Math, Science, & Art. Not surprising that they would be one of the countries that would stem away from religious laws.

Iran also got lots of people who got secular education passing their values on to their kids, because even though the Islamic revolutionaries did eradicate some opposition, they didn't just flat-out kill everyone who wasn't a "member", like the Taliban did, or like Mao attempted in China.

So there's a large segment of the population with a mentality the Western middle class would recognize as quite familiar. Too bad our oil deals with the Saudis keep us opposed to Iran, they're probably one of the most sane actors in the region, or rather have the potential to be.

I can only reiterate: bloody Realpolitik.

thanks to charlie hebdo latest act:

1) three people have been killed and six churches attacked in Niger
the source: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-30863159

2) French flags torched as Charlie Hebdo protests erupt from Algiers to Zinder
the source: http://www.france24.com/en/20150117-charlie-hebdo-protests-niger-pakistan-algiers-zinder-france/

even charlie hebdo co-founder said Prophet cartoons went too far
the source: http://money.cnn.com/2015/01/16/media/charlie-hebdo-henri-roussel/

this satire on religion must be one of the best contribution to humanity, bravo

Is Charlie Hebdo even published in those countries?

They have 0 responsibility for any deaths caused as a result of that publication. If some Muslims can't be offended without retorting to violence that's on them.

The cartoon was not even designed to be provocative, it had a concilliatory message, if you could get past the whole cartoon-of-the-prophet thing.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Is Charlie Hebdo even published in those countries?

They have 0 responsibility for any deaths caused as a result of that publication. If some Muslims can't be offended without retorting to violence that's on them.

The cartoon was not even designed to be provocative, it had a concilliatory message, if you could get past the whole cartoon-of-the-prophet thing.

drawing the picture of the Prophet is provocation act itself

you realize all of this will happen yet still doing it, bravo on that

westerner (freedom of speech fighter) didn't care others feeling, period

king of selfish, period

guest_07 wrote:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Is Charlie Hebdo even published in those countries?

They have 0 responsibility for any deaths caused as a result of that publication. If some Muslims can't be offended without retorting to violence that's on them.

The cartoon was not even designed to be provocative, it had a concilliatory message, if you could get past the whole cartoon-of-the-prophet thing.

drawing the picture of the Prophet is provocation act itself

westerner didn't care others feeling, period

king of selfish, period

Burning churches, stoning Christians, massacring Christian families is normal in countries like Pakistan.

Why don't Easterners care about other's feelings?

Why are they so selfish?

Why are YOU such a hypocrite?

RealGunner wrote:

guest_07 wrote:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Is Charlie Hebdo even published in those countries?

They have 0 responsibility for any deaths caused as a result of that publication. If some Muslims can't be offended without retorting to violence that's on them.

The cartoon was not even designed to be provocative, it had a concilliatory message, if you could get past the whole cartoon-of-the-prophet thing.

drawing the picture of the Prophet is provocation act itself

westerner didn't care others feeling, period

king of selfish, period

Burning churches, stoning Christians, massacring Christian families is normal in countries like Pakistan.

Why don't they care about other's feelings?

Why are they so selfish?

majority of them are not as intelligent as westerner, thats why they always did unwise act

you as intelligent westerner should not add to them a load of  UNNECESSARY problems to them

guest_07 wrote:majority of them are not as intelligent as westerner, thats why they always did unwise act

They are not as intelligent? I dare to challenge that. I'm pretty sure there is no difference in basic intelligence between westerners and easterners. The only thing they lack is secular education - but the question is - why isn't that propagated instead of mainly religious education, especially if that maybe could lead to less violence? It is their choice after all.

guest_07 wrote:you as intelligent westerner should not add to them a load of  UNNECESSARY problems to them

The problem are the people who decide to tell people who would never have heard about the stuff legally published in France otherwise to get upset and violent. They could choose just to ignore it or to note that in the qur'an (as mentioned in some post above) even Mohamed said that the best way is just to ignore stuff like this. So again it is the choice of the people in power there and not the responsibility of the people publishing the cartoons in France.

rwo power wrote:

guest_07 wrote:majority of them are not as intelligent as westerner, thats why they always did unwise act

They are not as intelligent? I dare to challenge that. I'm pretty sure there is no difference in basic intelligence between westerners and easterners. The only thing they lack is secular education - but the question is - why isn't that propagated instead of mainly religious education, especially if that maybe could lead to less violence? It is their choice after all.

guest_07 wrote:you as intelligent westerner should not add to them a load of  UNNECESSARY problems to them

The problem are the people who decide to tell people who would never have heard about the stuff legally published in France to get upset and violent. They could choose just to ignore it or to note that in the qur'an (as mentioned in some post above) even Mohamed said that the best way is just to ignore it.

because they don't fully understand their religion yet, that's why i call them not intelligent

in Islam, people should always forgive others, they still don't understand this basic thing

are you sure they can't heard all this news in this age of internet

Well, that's nothing about intelligence - it is only about lack of (secular) education.

And I'm not sure whether the people who get riled up like that all have access to the internet (at least not to uncensored internet). If they would have access to uncensored internet, they would get access to a much broader spectrum of views and education and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be as easy to misinform them by only telling them about the evil acts committed in France.

After all, then they would also have the chance to read up about other interpretations of the qur'an and maybe understand that violence is not the answer.

Normally it is easiest to manipulate uneducated people. As soon as people have access to education and broader views, their understanding grows. That's why there is so much censorship in dictatorships - they filter out everything that could broaden the views of their subjects.

rwo power wrote:Well, that's nothing about intelligence - it is only about lack of (secular) education.

And I'm not sure whether the people who get riled up like that all have access to the internet (at least not to uncensored internet). If they would have access to uncensored internet, they would get access to a much broader spectrum of views and education and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be as easy to misinform them by only telling them about the evil acts committed in France.

After all, then they would also have the chance to read up about other interpretations of the qur'an and maybe understand that violence is not the answer.

Normally it is easiest to manipulate uneducated people. As soon as people have access to education and broader views, their understanding grows. That's why there is so much censorship in dictatorships - they filter out everything that could broaden the views of their subjects.

can you change the attitude of this not so wise cleric that asking for retaliation?

or can you change your attitude in criticize other religion using provocation act?

which one you think is easier

So you mean we should revert to medieval censorship instead of trying to erode the views of the backwards clerics until they start to arrive in modern times, too?

After all, the upsets as tragic as they are make the modern muslims speak up (at least I hope so) and thus gradually undermining the power of the backwards clerics.

And there was practically no revolution where no blood was shed, unfortunately. One needs to fight for one's freedoms after all - if one doesn't fight, other people can silently take them away.

rwo power wrote:So you mean we should revert to medieval censorship instead of trying to erode the views of the backwards clerics until they start to arrive in modern times, too?

After all, the upsets as tragic as they are make the modern muslims speak up (at least I hope so) and thus gradually undermining the power of the backwards clerics.

And there was practically no revolution where no blood was shed, unfortunately. One needs to fight for one's freedoms after all - if one doesn't fight, other people can silently take them away.

criticize without provoking, ever heard this phrase, do you?

The problem is that people choose what they are provoked by. They could choose to get provoked by virtually everything and that means one would have to get rid of practically everything to avoid provocation.

One great caricature showed a completely white paper with the headline "Islam-approved caricature".

People need to learn not to react to perceived provocations with violence, that's everything that is needed. And it is not the responsibility of people in France to curb their own freedoms because of that.

Christians learned to live with provocative texts and pictures about Christianity, the secular rulers here had to learn to live with ridicule, too. It is not as if the Christian church didn't start out with killing blasphemers in the past. Likewise kings of the past executed people who spoke up against them too. But the people here never allowed them to silence them in the long run.  

So now it is the turn of the Islamic people to get over it and learn a more relaxed stance.

rwo power wrote:The problem is that people choose what they are provoked by. They could choose to get provoked by virtually everything and that means one would have to get rid of practically everything to avoid provocation.

One great caricature showed a completely white paper with the headline "Islam-approved caricature".

People need to learn not to react to perceived provocations with violence, that's everything that is needed. And it is not the responsibility of people in France to curb their own freedoms because of that.

Christians learned to live with provocative texts and pictures about Christianity, the secular rulers here had to learn to live with ridicule, too. It is not as if the Christian church didn't start out with killing blasphemers in the past. Likewise kings of the past executed people who spoke up against them too. But the people here never allowed them to silence them in the long run.  

So now it is the turn of the Islamic people to get over it and learn a more relaxed stance.

provoking is part of your culture, i can't change it

same like what killing is part of culture of extremist group that called themselves Islamic, that one too i can't change it

both groups think they do the right thing, so sad....................

we the neutral in the middle of 2 groups can't do nothing except voicing our opinion