Re: How good do you expect these players to be?

by Ganso Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:46 pm

McAgger wrote:
Ganso wrote:
Mr Nick09 wrote:Pogba absolutely belong in tier 1 talent, just like varane if he we were adding defenders to the list.

he is a different kind of talent, but you cant ignore his physical potential couple with his technical abilities. And the way he has been performing up to now, breaking into juve starting team is sensational.

Dominant athlete, long, tall, agile, with quick feet, vision, passing qualities, monstrous shot technique already, and versatility.

you guys are nuts if you dont think he is up there with the rest.
Gotze,neymar and hazard have been performing for years and already led their teams to trophies.Pogba has to keep it up at least until the WC to be at their tier imo.

So has Pogba ffs

he did not lead juve last season, he was just a supporter of the actual key players.only this season he has become a leader of the team

by M99 Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:48 pm

I think he is referring to France's U20 World Cup victory where Pogba won the Golden Ball.

by Mr Nick09 Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:52 pm

lol, youth tourneys dont matter. Ganso is right, Pogba hasnt been doing it for as long as the others, but since he has come up, he has been quite great. If he steps up his tactical game he will be world class.

by Eman Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:36 am

Let's put it this way: at 20 years of age, how good were some of the other guys in this thread?

- Oscar was still in Brazil and hadn't even played 40 professional games in his career yet
- Thiago was on the bench at Barca, although showing great potential
- Ramsey had been having a promising season until his broken leg
- Balotelli played his first season at Man City, which he was decent during
- Hazard was tearing it up in Ligue 1
- Isco had an impressive season at Malaga
- Gotze had another great season with Dortmund
- Neymar took the world by storm at the Confederations Cup after another good season in Brazil
- Draxler (same age) is doing well at Schalke

The only guys who were doing better at 20 IMO were Neymar and Gotze; maybe Hazard too but he was only in Ligue 1 at the time and this was pre-P$G. With Pogba having won a starting birth in a top midfield at Juventus and having become a key player there as well in his short time as a professional, it's not unreasonable to rate him highly. I think it's unreasonable not to. Okay, maybe not tier 1 if you don't want to, but he's up amongst the best talents.

by DuringTheWar Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:08 am

I don't think anyone has said here pogba isn't a good player, as starting for juventus indicates. But playing games at the age of 20 is in no way proof on its own that he is one of the best talents. And in many cases the relationship between playing at a young age and talent is spurious at best

by Mr Nick09 Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:12 am

but arent we evalutating talent here? at the end of the day it comes down to what we see, the games in which they perform, the level at which they perform etc... It's ok not to agree tho, everyone doesnt think the same

by Valkyrja Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:22 am

No doubt that Pogba will become a WC player, but there are some players who have that special sth, which the Frenchman lacks.

by Forza Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:24 am

On the contrary, I think Pogba is that special type of game-winning player. My suspicion is that he is not rated as highly as I think of him by others because he is not an AM or ST.

by Mr Nick09 Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:39 am

Valkyrja wrote:No doubt that Pogba will become a WC player, but there are some players who have that special sth, which the Frenchman lacks.

and what is that little something? can you explain it? the only reason i wanted to argue this is because im pretty sure you are one of those who see football one way and one way only.

by Tomwin Lannister Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:54 am

LMFAO

The underrating of Pogba.

I'm convinced that many members of this forum think it's cool to see a general opinion I.E 'Pogba has great potential' and just go against that and slap him in some imaginary 'tier 3' because well... ya know

Dat hipster life rofl

Ridiculous statements on this thread.
Breaking into our midfield is 'easy' ? rofl

by Mr Nick09 Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:00 am

Not easy per say but you lads have been overrating marchisio like crazy around here. Pirlo is world class, Vidal is world class, but marchisio is and has always been an average player who peaked a year or so ago. Pogba benching him was a predictable and inevitable outcome. Tactically he is better than pogba, but the sheer gap in talent is much.

by Tomwin Lannister Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:02 am

He's not average at all

Definitely not World Class, but putting him in the 'average' bracket with the likes of Mikel and Flamini is just underrating him to make a point.

by Mr Nick09 Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:06 am

OK, he is a good player, doesnt go much beyond that.

by McAgger Fri Jan 03, 2014 3:57 pm

Tomwin Lannister wrote:LMFAO

The underrating of Pogba.

I'm convinced that many members of this forum think it's cool to see a general opinion I.E 'Pogba has great potential' and just go against that and slap him in some imaginary 'tier 3' because well... ya know

Dat hipster life

Ridiculous statements on this thread.
Breaking into our midfield is 'easy' ?

McAgger wrote:Tier 1. Gotze and Pogba will be the best of the lot in the future
Tier 1.1 Nerman, will be right up there but I don't see him being as god as Gotze or as dominant as Pogba.

.............then there's a bit of a drop off.......

Tier 2. Thiago, Hazard, Isco, Oliver Torres
Tier 3. Ramsey, Verratti, Coutinho, Oscar, Barkley, Suso
Tier 4. Balotelli

by Tomwin Lannister Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:14 pm

Nah don't worry Mc brah I know now everybody was in full in hipster mode..

Also Valk, you make absolutely no sense. You say Pogba WILL become World Class (That's your own words) but you say he lacks something special. Er.... if you're World Class you aren't lacking anything special.

Unless (This would be even more stupid) you're saying that all of the players in the 'tiers' above Pogba will all go on to become all time greats?

Last of all, this will never be fair. People whether they like to admitt it or not rate attacking talents much, much higher than midfielders (Not Attacking ones) and especially defenders

You could take a top 10 Winger, compare him to Lahm (Probably the best full-back out there) and people will mostly fap over said Winger. It's just the way it is sadly.

by Gil Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:34 pm

How is Neymar still not the indisputable #1 player on this forum. What the hell have Pogba or Gotze done for some hipsters to be ranking those two ahead of him?

He's clearly the #1 talent in football and it's not debatable.

The only player that could reach that sort of level is Hazard but it'll need a Ronaldo-esque work ethic and different outlook to ever belong in the same class. As talented as Eden is he doesn't have the "killer instinct" Neymar has nor the Alpha mentality.

by Pip Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:37 pm

It's only personal choice. At the end of the day all of these players are great talents and the margin of difference between them is small. Some people just rate others more than Pogba and I don't really see how that's a problem.

I think I'm the only person that put Oscar in Tier 1. I don't think it's an insult to Pogba to rate him alongside Thiago and Isco. I for one don't think at all that he should be rated at the same level as Neymar, but that's just my choice.

by Gil Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:44 pm

Oscar is insanely talented and has sky high potential but despite his gifts he's yet to show any glimpses of elite playmaking potential to deserve a Tier 1 status. That's the only reason I'm placing him in Tier 2 with Gotze, Thiago and Pogba atm.

Tier 1: Neymar
Tier 2: Gotze, Pogba, Thiago, Oscar, Balotelli
Tier 3: Ramsey, Isco, Januzaj, Wilshere, Barkley
Tier 4: Coutinho, Lukaku, Bernard.

by Casciavit Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:53 pm

Gil wrote:How is Neymar still not the indisputable #1 player on this forum. What the hell have Pogba or Gotze done for some hipsters to be ranking those two ahead of him?

He's clearly the #1 talent in football and it's not debatable.

The only player that could reach that sort of level is Hazard but it'll need a Ronaldo-esque work ethic and different outlook to ever belong in the same class. As talented as Eden is he doesn't have the "killer instinct" Neymar has nor the Alpha mentality.

Well Gotze was instrumental in BVB's back to back Bundesliga wins and was one of there best players in the CL last season.

Now he plays for Bayern and under Guardiola. We all know Guardiola history with developing talents. He's also been putting up some great numbers based on minutes played.

Watch BVB. You'll realize they miss him a lot, Mkhitaryan doesn't have Gotze's playmaking ability nor his dribbling ability. Let us not forget Gotze's ability to create space and his movement in between the lines is superior to Mkhitaryan's as well.

by Ganso Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:09 pm

tbh Gotze wasnt even a top 5 player for Dortmund in their CL campaign .As i said in another thread, he almost managed to knock Dortmund out of CL with his misses vs Malaga.

by sportsczy Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:23 pm

I'll add that Pogba starting in the midfield for NT is the main reason that France was able to regain control of games and get into the WC. He was the second best player behind Ribery down the stretch...

As far as Juve, when Marchisio's form dropped and he got injured, Pogba stepped in and Juve didn't lose a beat. In fact, i'd argue that they played better at certain points. If that hadn't happened, Juve would not have won Serie A last season or be in first place this season.

You can't understate his impact. He has massive impact on both NT and club. He's not WC yet obviously... just shows flashes of it. But he is getting better and the WC tag is not far away at all.

Comparing players in different positions is stupid to me. I think there should be categories: Keeping, defense, CM, AM/winger, striker.

by Casciavit Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:29 pm

Ganso wrote:tbh Gotze wasnt even a top 5 player for Dortmund in their CL campaign .As i said in another thread, he almost managed to knock Dortmund out of CL with his misses vs Malaga.

Err.. what? He was definitely in the top 5. He played well in all group stage matches and was MOTM against Shakthar and Ajax. He linked up well with Reus during the tournament and they tormented the opposition.

Sure his finishing against Malaga was bad, but are you seriously going to use that as an excuse to undermine all his other great performances? He wasn't the only one who was poor when it came to finishing that leg.

His performance against Madrid (semis) wasn't bad at all, in fact I remember some post match reports saying 'Gotze outOzils Ozil' and he was a key contributor in the 4-1 win even if he didn't score.

2 goals and 5 assists is not a bad return at all, considering he missed 2-3 matches due to injury. Would have been interesting to see how BVB would have done against Bayern in the finals, if he was fit.

by Ganso Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:43 pm

Lewandoski,Gundogan,Reus,Subotic and Weidenfeller were all more important than him.He played well during the group stages and then vs Shakhtar but that was pretty much it.After that, on the actual important matches,like vs Madrid and Malaga, the other players had to step up.Im not saying that he was crap in CL,just not a highlight/ key player.

by Casciavit Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:52 pm

Ganso wrote:Lewandoski,Gundogan,Reus,Subotic and Weidenfeller were all more important than him.He played well during the group stages and then vs Shakhtar but that was pretty much it.After that, on the actual important matches,like vs Madrid and Malaga, the other players had to step up.Not saying that he was crap in CL,just not a highlight/ key player.

Again though, he played well against Madrid in fact the whole team played well and he assisted Lewa's first goal. He was superb in the group stages against them as well. In the 2nd leg he got injured in the 11th minute and was subbed off and that very injury ended his season.

As for Malaga many players under-performed that tie, especially Gundogan. Lewa also missed a few sitters. Heck the player that saved them was Hummels who came off the bench in the 80th minute and was hitting accurate long balls into the penalty box.

by M99 Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:04 pm

Gil wrote:Oscar is insanely talented and has sky high potential but despite his gifts he's yet to show any glimpses of elite playmaking potential to deserve a Tier 1 status. That's the only reason I'm placing him in Tier 2 with Gotze, Thiago and Pogba atm.

Tier 1: Neymar
Tier 2: Gotze, Pogba, Thiago, Oscar, Balotelli
Tier 3: Ramsey, Isco, Januzaj, Wilshere, Barkley
Tier 4: Coutinho, Lukaku, Bernard.

Agree entirely except for Ramsey. He should be in Tier 2.

by futbol Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:11 pm

Problem with rating Pogba highly for me is that he is an all action, strong, tackle and shoot type of all-arounder. Which is great and all but he's neither a playmaker who will influence the flow of a game nor an out-and-out defensive specialist who will stop the opponent's playmaker to influence the game. Oscar and Thiago have the potential to become players that need to be stopped from playing their own game or they will cut you open with their passing and movement. You can build teams around them. Pogba just isn't that kind of player.

Tier 1: Neymar, Götze
Tier 2: Oscar, Thiago
Tier 3: Isco, Pogba, Balotelli, Hazard

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