The Midfield Conundrum

Its irrelevant how many posts one has on this forum. Do you suggest that everyone with zero posts has zero knowledge of football? But I'd rather put those unpleasantries to one side as i joined this forum to discuss football - a game i have extensive knowledge about.

Theres your link. He is positionally good, if not completely well disciplined. He shows his obvious strength on the ball. And wins headers around the box and from longer balls. He's occasionally too strong in the tackle and goes chasing the ball, but hes young and has time to develop. He supports his fullbacks well and helps to double up against the wingers. He keeps the ball ticking over when Everton are in possession and makes probing passes when required. I think he looks very solid and is not to be sniffed at at a price of £25m

Welcome to the section MidfieldCarousel, introduce yourself in the Man Utd Goallegacy fanbase thread if you have time

MidfieldCarousel wrote:

Its irrelevant how many posts one has on this forum. Do you suggest that everyone with zero posts has zero knowledge of football? But I'd rather put those unpleasantries to one side as i joined this forum to discuss football - a game i have extensive knowledge about.

Theres your link. He is positionally good, if not completely well disciplined. He shows his obvious strength on the ball. And wins headers around the box and from longer balls. He's occasionally too strong in the tackle and goes chasing the ball, but hes young and has time to develop. He supports his fullbacks well and helps to double up against the wingers.  He keeps the ball ticking over when Everton are in possession and makes probing passes when required. I think he looks very solid and is not to be sniffed at at a price of £25m

no it was not saying you have no knowledge of football based on your number of posts, it was meant that you have been here all of 5 minutes and are making judgement on my knowledge of what a midfielders role entails.

and my god he even looks average in a youtube highlight video, something that is supposed to highlight his great abilities i can only imagine what was left out of the rest of the 86 mins of the game

My judgement is based upon what you have posted in response to my comments. And I feel it is fair to uphold those judgements as I feel your opinions are somewhat dated.

I did what you said, I found an Everton game against Arsenal in which Fellaini looked like a decent holding midfield player. You say he looks average. Well that just highlights your lack of knowledge doesn't it?

MidfieldCarousel wrote:My judgement is based upon what you have posted in response to my comments. And I feel it is fair to uphold those judgements as I feel your opinions are somewhat dated.

I did what you said, I found an Everton game against Arsenal in which Fellaini looked like a decent holding midfield player. You say he looks average. Well that just highlights your lack of knowledge doesn't it?

why because I disagree with you on a player? what makes your words gospel over mine to what is the truth.

your arrogance is hilarious, it's all opinion, quit acting like what you are saying is fact

My opinion is backed up with facts. If you could qualify your opinion i would be much more open to receiving it. Just saying he is useless and it is all press hype is not a strong opinion... UNLESS you can back it up with facts and good reason

what facts do you have? you have given opinion on his abilities, those are not facts. You think a youtube highlight video is fact that he is a good player? 4 min highlight pack of 1 game, what was he doing for the other 86 mins, could of misplaced every pass but the video editor doesn't put that in.

i have seen and most people have seen there fair share of FULL games of fellaini playing enough to know what type of player he is and base there own opinions on him....I have seen enough Everton games to develop my own opinion that I think he is not suited to the CM/DM role and not good enough for United.

if we are going to spend £25 million on a player go get a true CM/DM like Bender, Matic, Witsel, Gonalons, Martinez.

not this hybrid average cam/cm/dm that Fellaini is

It is ludicrous to suggest we would get any of those players for £25m. For example, Bayern Munich paid £40m for Martinez so why would they sell cut price now? Fellaini would go for £30m+ if it wasnt for his clause in his contract.

Ive watched many games of him playing as a support striker and as a defensive midfielder for both Everton and Belgium.

As for facts, you are starting to sound like Benitez by the way, 4 minutes of youtube clips are all real. My 'facts' about the positioning of Mascherano and Martinez have also been largely ignored also.

Your responses have largely contained 'Ive seen him play, he's rubbish.'

Football Manager fans are the worst  

MidfieldCarousel wrote:It is ludicrous to suggest we would get any of those players for £25m. For example, Bayern Munich paid £40m for Martinez so why would they sell cut price now? Fellaini would go for £30m+ if it wasnt for his clause in his contract.

Ive watched many games of him playing as a support striker and as a defensive midfielder for both Everton and Belgium.

As for facts, you are starting to sound like Benitez by the way, 4 minutes of youtube clips are all real. My 'facts' about the positioning of Mascherano and Martinez have also been largely ignored also.

Your responses have largely contained 'Ive seen him play, he's rubbish.'

Football Manager fans are the worst  

your posts about Guardiola and Mascherano and Martinez are irrelevant in the fact that Pep teams play possession/pressing football, United do not play like Pep teams therefore there needs in a team are entirely different, that is why your comments about them are ignored. are we suddenly playing 4-3-3 possession football? we lose the ball far more then Pep teams do, that is why they can get away with less gifted tacklers in the holding midfield....and the fact they team press when they lose the ball rather then individually man mark.

and they payed €40 million not £40 million for martinez. Matic, Gonalons maybe even Bender could easily be had for likely £25m or less

think they know it all, narrow minded fans are the worst "it works for Pep and Barca so it must work for United even tho we play completely different styles of football"

Oh wow 40 euros instead of pounds. Look up the exchange rate, it isnt exactly 25mill quid...

B-Mac MUFC wrote:think they know it all, narrow minded fans are the worst "it works for Pep and Barca so it must work for United even tho we play completely different styles of football"

I agree with you, narrow minded fans are the worst. You dont seem to be able to acknowledge that styles of football have evolved and as I said before, your opinion is dated. So we find common ground on that one.

How can you tell me what style of football United have when they haven't played one competitive game under their new manager? That's a ridiculous assertion.

Pep is an example, and a good example at that. Before Pep, Rijkaard rarely started Xavi and Iniesta in an arguably less successful period. He was prone to starting the two holding midfielders such as Edmilson and Van Bommell. Barcelona weren't always the slick passing side they were before Pep came in and altered their style, much like what Moyes could do with us. I guess its tough to remember a time before Guardiola though isnt it?

How about we move onto other managers if you aren't a Guardiola fan. Mourinho, he's the one who phased Makelele out and brought in Mikel at Chelsea. He ended this season at Madrid with Modric and Alonso as his pivot. Khedira was no longer first choice. Vilanova bought Song and hasnt seen the need to play him. Mancini sold De Jong. Wenger didnt see the need to replace Song. Tottenham are phasing out Scott Parker.

Im not saying theres only one way of playing the beautiful game. But what do we need a destroyer who's job is to tackle when football is slowly becoming a non contact sport?

I'm done for now, Ill leave you to look at my points and come up with a proper considered response.

Ill leave you with this, taken from the Mail in an interview with Xabi Alonso:

Tackling and the fact that it has always been seen as sufficiently important in English football for it to become a specialised job - the ball-winner - has always bemused Alonso. 'Tackling is not really a quality, it's more something you are forced to resort to when you don't have the ball,' he says.

To underline his point he recalls experiences at Liverpool reading programme profiles. 'You would come across an interview with a lad from the youth team and they've asked him his age, his heroes as a kid, and his strong points. And he would say things like shooting and tackling. I can't get into my head that footballing development would educate tackling as a quality.

Food for thought...

Fellaini isn't as bad as some people make him out to be but I feel we need a more tactically aware midfielder...

He also hasnt played a central midfield role consistently for the past couple of seasons and I would like to us to get a PROVEN deep lying midfielder...

His discipline is also a minor concern if you consider the holding midfielder role he'll most likely be used for.

Basically we need a Fletcher clone and the only other player who comes close to that for me is Javi Martinez and Vidal..shame theyre basically untouchable

MidfieldCarousel wrote:Oh wow 40 euros instead of pounds. Look up the exchange rate, it isnt exactly 25mill quid...

B-Mac MUFC wrote:think they know it all, narrow minded fans are the worst "it works for Pep and Barca so it must work for United even tho we play completely different styles of football"

I agree with you, narrow minded fans are the worst. You dont seem to be able to acknowledge that styles of football have evolved and as I said before, your opinion is dated. So we find common ground on that one.

How can you tell me what style of football United have when they haven't played one competitive game under their new manager? That's a ridiculous assertion.

Pep is an example, and a good example at that. Before Pep, Rijkaard rarely started Xavi and Iniesta in an arguably less successful period. He was prone to starting the two holding midfielders such as Edmilson and Van Bommell. Barcelona weren't always the slick passing side they were before Pep came in and altered their style, much like what Moyes could do with us. I guess its tough to remember a time before Guardiola though isnt it?

How about we move onto other managers if you aren't a Guardiola fan. Mourinho, he's the one who phased Makelele out and brought in Mikel at Chelsea. He ended this season at Madrid with Modric and Alonso as his pivot. Khedira was no longer first choice. Vilanova bought Song and hasnt seen the need to play him. Mancini sold De Jong. Wenger didnt see the need to replace Song. Tottenham are phasing out Scott Parker.

Im not saying theres only one way of playing the beautiful game. But what do we need a destroyer who's job is to tackle when football is slowly becoming a non contact sport?

I'm done for now, Ill leave you to look at my points and come up with a proper considered response.

Ill leave you with this, taken from the Mail in an interview with Xabi Alonso:

Tackling and the fact that it has always been seen as sufficiently important in English football for it to become a specialised job - the ball-winner - has always bemused Alonso. 'Tackling is not really a quality, it's more something you are forced to resort to when you don't have the ball,' he says.

To underline his point he recalls experiences at Liverpool reading programme profiles. 'You would come across an interview with a lad from the youth team and they've asked him his age, his heroes as a kid, and his strong points. And he would say things like shooting and tackling. I can't get into my head that footballing development would educate tackling as a quality.

Food for thought...

where did i say we need a makelele clone? all the players i suggested we buy are not at all like him, Matic, Bender, Gonalons, Martinez...are all superior technically, and able to distribute the ball around the pitch and contribute in some way going forward, they are true CM/DM and are more adapt to play the role required then fellaini, Arsenal was bidding £18 million for Bender and I believe the prices for Gonalons were around £13 million, why try and buy a player for £25 million and put him in a role he is not best suited to, when you can buy players whose role that is primarily, for less and do the job better.....somehow u got makelele stuck in your head.

You specifically said we didn't want fellaini because he can't tackle. You originally said you would like a Bradley or de Rossi, both of whom are makelele tacklers. The first group of players you suggested fellaini would be one of the better ones. The second group he falls slightly down the order. Either you must work on the consistency of your argument or your opinion has changed. I'd like give you some credit and think your opinion has changed

What would your solution be pj87?

I think a £40m outlay for fabregas or schweinsteiger and £20m for fellaini would make us outright favorites for the league title and help us sustain a champions league run

MidfieldCarousel wrote:You specifically said we didn't want fellaini because he can't tackle. You originally said you would like a Bradley or de Rossi, both of whom are makelele tacklers. The first group of players you suggested fellaini would be one of the better ones. The second group he falls slightly down the order. Either you must work on the consistency of your argument or your opinion has changed. I'd like give you some credit and think your opinion has changed

is my name Jibers ffs

quoting the wrong poster when you say i recommended Bradley or De Rossi

go back and read my posts pls

I don't want fellaini anywhere near our mf. If Moyes signs that clown...

well it's already the beginning of the end, won't make a difference. Next season is all about suffering...

jibers wrote:I don't want fellaini anywhere near our mf. If Moyes signs that clown...

well it's already the beginning of the end, won't make a difference. Next season is all about suffering...

Voice of Reason

pls go Fellaini

jibers wrote:I don't want fellaini anywhere near our mf. If Moyes signs that clown...

well it's already the beginning of the end, won't make a difference. Next season is all about suffering...

naa we will do well next season. May be we wont win the league. But will finish in top 3 for sure.

MidfieldCarousel, Fellaini is a decent player but he is not what we need now. He played as a CM, CM and as a striker for Everton in the last few years. His favourite positions were CAM and ST. When he played CM, he did it because Moyes was improvising, not because he was better there. Let's say that he had some great games against top teams when he played CM, but it's not enough. He is very inconstant. He has 2 good games and then he looks like a mediocre midfielder for 4 or 5 matches.

If he goes to a top club he will slowly become an average attacking midfielder, if we suppose that at Everton he wasn't mediocre. He played like a pivot, everything was built near him and he was in the spotlight. At Manchester United it is not that easy to be in the spotlight. I am pretty sure that he can't manage with the pressure of being a MUFC 'top player'. At Everton if he had 3 poor performances in a row, nobody was complaining about this because the tendency was to remember how he saved Everton's ass in the past, but at a big club every player must be a hero for his team every game.

Fellaini could be our desperate solution but not even close to what we really need if we want to compete in UCL and EPL with real chances to win the trophies.

Like B-Mac said, we should turn our attention to other players. There are at least five better options than Fellaini. What we really need? a CDM, CM or a CAM? We need a versatile midfielder who can play at his max potential on each of previously mentioned positions. It still depends a lot of what formations will Moyes use. We can't know for sure at the moment, we can only speak hypothetically.

Comparing Barca's possession style with MUTD's style of play is completely wrong. Moyes is our new coach and now it's only partially correct to speak about our past, yet we know him since he was at Everton and he isn't a stranger to Sir Alex's tactics. So we can make the connection and think about our past couples of central midfielders. We had Roy Keane, Scholes, Fletcher, Veron, Nicky Butt, Hargreaves and Carrick. Cleverley's role last season was to improve the connection between midfield and attack, though is defensive minded and very good when it comes about interceptions, defensive positioning and standing tackles. All of them were beasts when it came about tacklings. With this kind of tackling specialists, we won a lot of trophies under Sir Alex. So it is important to be succesfull in our own way, we can't use Carrick as a CB just because Pep used at Barca one of the best tacklers in the world on that position. Carrick was our best tackler last season.

Let's be honest, Fellaini can easily win the ball from the opposite players because he is a big fella and it is very hard to get past him, but he isn't that kind of 'engine' player. That's what we need, we also always had those kind of players on the wings. Remember Park and now Valencia. Teams like City and Chelsea always outplayed Fellaini, physically...

jibers wrote:Agreed. He is the opposite of what we need in a cm. De Rossi, Tiote, Bradley, Vidal, Martinez would be good.

Bradley is great for Roma, but he is the perfect DM for United. I hope they never notice  

Lumiere_Blanche wrote:

jibers wrote:I don't want fellaini anywhere near our mf. If Moyes signs that clown...

well it's already the beginning of the end, won't make a difference. Next season is all about suffering...

naa we will do well next season. May be we wont win the league. But will finish in top 3 for sure.

Anything below second and there will be outcry.

Out of all the seasons, this was probably one of the most important to buy players, the rest of the league has improved with the new TV money, it's going to be hard to pick-up points.

If we get Fellaini to supplement a higher profile midfielder such as Cesc then we'll have one of the stronger midfields in the league and we'll be favourites again.

If we bought just Fellaini then we might be in trouble, but then I don't think Cesc is enough

Gerardo Martino said that he is counting on Fabregas. It's the third time when Barca rejects our bid. It's over, we won't buy Cesc.

I miss Fletcher from the 2009-2010 season. Fellaini is good, but I would see any of the Bender twins better on the ball winning role. Kinda stings for me that we lost Pogba so easily. As for the creative MF, I think that Kagawa will explode this season (given he will be played enough). I agree that tackling in a midfielder is being phased out somehow in the modern game, being replaced with something more like a box to box midfielder (I would love to see Vidal wearing a United shirt, even though it is extremely unlikely). Fabregas will not come to United and I hope that Moyes will not resort to Modric (good player, but not exactly what we need in that compartment). In my opinion, I would much rather see United finish 4th this season(a first in the Premier League era) and see Powell blossom, than spend a senseless amount of money on a midfielder such as Modric or Fellaini. The real problem I see to be in the wing department: Zaha looks really promising, Januzaj as well (even though I don't see him ready just yet for the first team), but Valencia has been off, Young isn't United material and Nani needs to wake up.
Wow, our midfield really is a conundrum...

Alin, we missed you, welcome back!

Creanga Ion wrote:Alin, we missed you, welcome back!

Cheers. Sorry for the inactivity (dissertation paper and stuff).