The Chicken-Egg Conundrum

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Post by kiranr Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:51 pm

After the first leg of the Super Copa, some madrid fans started attributing Madrid's hard tackling, off the ball fouls, intention to injure etc to Barcelona's diving and theatrics.

Some have even attributed the theatrics to Pep's era thus placing the blame squarely on him. Apart from Alves and Busquets, i have never really seen anyone exaggerate fouls or feign injuries.

The question that i want to ask is, do the players dive at the softest touch or do they go to the ground because they lose balance? Let us not forget that players like Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Villa, Pedro and Messi likes to keep the ball and tries to dribble or skip away from players which inevitably attracts more infractions.

Come on people, give me your opinions and please try to keep bias out of them and actually think about this for a moment, as every other fan, Madrid or otherwise, seem to think the same.
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Post by ChollaVille Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:35 pm

Busi likes to dive after contact, even when he can stay on hes feet, in 90% situation it is foul even if he stays on feet. It looks like he just let other player to bring him down. He is most fouled player in squad. Busi is overreacted against Inter and Real Madrid after face kicing, but most players do that. As I said in 90% situations it is a foul.

Alves just overrecting after fouls. He dives sometimes, but also in 90% situations it is a foul.

Others... well they are just overrecting against Real Madrid. Even Cesc done it after Marcelo's tackle.

Materazzi overreacted after Zidane's header.


On other side, players like Di Maria and Cristiano are diving without contact and after minimal contact when it is not foul. Almost half fouls on Cristiano and more than half on Di Maria are not fouls. They are pure divers.
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Post by Harmonica Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:39 pm

@kiranr wrote:After the first leg of the Super Copa, some madrid fans started attributing Madrid's hard tackling, off the ball fouls, intention to injure etc to Barcelona's diving and theatrics.

They are doing it to approve of their rugby tactics only, which is the latest scheme from Mous cheating handbook. Mouninho has now brainwashed their fans, and using them as his personal bit***s

There is no chicken, egg conundrum. There is only Real Moudrid.
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Post by kiranr Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:11 pm

Chollaville explained it.

Many of our players seem to go down with soft contact. They just move the ball away and then take the contact and go down. All the refs, invariably, gives us the call, be it in CL or La Liga. Is this pushing legality?

In the 5-0 Clasico match did the players clutch their face and throw themselves on the ground? As much as i remember, i did not see as many theatrics.

The real question is, would Mourinho have imposed the hard tackling tactic if we did not "dive" or indulge in theatrics like Alves or Busquets? I think, yes.

Some of the other teams that have used this as per my memory are Capello's Madrid against Barcelona, Dunga's Brazil against Argentina. None of these were instigated due to "diving" by the opposition. What is common in all these games? The opponent have always been a superior passing side. They were a clear tactic to break up the fluidity of the opponent's play.

Madrid have indulged in several off the ball fouls and have intentionally stuck their elbow or tried to kick out at players. They have barged into our players at great speeds and knocked them onto the ground. IMO, the motivation for these kind of fouls is to break-up the play no matter the cost.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:28 pm

As a mechanism against over-physical teams Barca has figured out that it needs to fall more easily* in order to get some calls rightly called in their favor. This is a defense mechanism against teams that, often, play like thugs against Barca. It's just as much of a tactic as rough, but not dangerous, tackles.

Anyways, there is no cyclical conundrum. Real plays aggressively against Barca because that's the only tactic that works. Because of this aggresive play, Barca feels like it must get a rightful call and tries to make the most of it. Since Madrid do rough tackles so often, Barca players have all the more chances to do this which gives off the impression that they dive more than any other team - an incorrect impression.

But anyways, there is no logical reason for why Madrid would tackle harder because Barca "dives".


*Diving, to me, means feigning a fall when there is no contact or close to no contact. Thus, I feel like the term is thrown around too easily when the fact is that the team does more play acting than diving, under this definition anyway.
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Post by JuvenelCuore Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:58 pm

@ChollaVille wrote:Materazzi overreacted after Zidane's header.

False. Zidane overreacted and headbutted him, and Materazzi fell because of it. :coffee:
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Post by kiranr Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:01 pm

Yes Alfred, there is no logical reasoning for Madrid to tackle harder to prevent diving. It will only increase "diving" and playacting and also instigates the other side to tackle just as hard as we saw in the second leg.

I ask the Madrid fans, if they are reading this, to come up with example where teams have tackled harder to counter diving. Did Gentile kick and snap at Maradona because he dived?
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Post by ChollaVille Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:13 pm

@JuvenelCuore wrote:
@ChollaVille wrote:Materazzi overreacted after Zidane's header.

False. Zidane overreacted and headbutted him, and Materazzi fell because of it. :coffee:

Materazzi could easy stand up and kick Zidane's ass after that, but he was on gound pretending that he is shot by magnum xD
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Post by Senor Penguin Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:55 pm

@kiranr wrote:Yes Alfred, there is no logical reasoning for Madrid to tackle harder to prevent diving. It will only increase "diving" and playacting and also instigates the other side to tackle just as hard as we saw in the second leg.

I ask the Madrid fans, if they are reading this, to come up with example where teams have tackled harder to counter diving. Did Gentile kick and snap at Maradona because he dived?
I don't agree with the sentiment so I won't even bother to give examples. Smile

Madrid have begun to play aggressively because it's just Mourinho's style and it does work better as seen in the recent Clasico (I can't remember a game against Barca where we dispossessed them so successfully). Madrid's problem has always been - at least in the last decade - that they defended passively with little pressure on the ball holder. I don't believe the change has anything to do with the certain inclination some Barca players have for diving as Madrid in general play harder than they used to - regardless the opponent.

The hard tackles that were dangerous happened out of frustration and, of course, provocation at the end of the game. Prior to that the tackles were hard but pretty fair, imo.


Last edited by Senor Penguin on Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by ToEy Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:56 pm

Honestly that they should kick our players harder because our players dive only came from that french deluded dude sportzcy or whatever crap he is. This is the 2nd most stupid logic in football I have ever heard and it is an argument that borders at clutching at straws.

It is like saying bouncers at a club should beat up people that drink a lot because they are prone to being rowdy...yes its that stupid

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Post by ToEy Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:59 pm

@Senor Penguin wrote:
@kiranr wrote:Yes Alfred, there is no logical reasoning for Madrid to tackle harder to prevent diving. It will only increase "diving" and playacting and also instigates the other side to tackle just as hard as we saw in the second leg.

I ask the Madrid fans, if they are reading this, to come up with example where teams have tackled harder to counter diving. Did Gentile kick and snap at Maradona because he dived?
I don't agree with the sentiment so I won't even bother to give examples. Smile

Madrid have begun to play aggressively because it's just Mourinho's style and it does work better as seen in the recent Clasico (I can't remember a game against Barca where we dispossessed them so successfully). Madrid's problem has always been - at least in the last decade - that they defended passively with little pressure on the ball holder. I don't believe the change has anything to do with the certain inclination some Barca players have for diving as Madrid in general play harder than they used to - regardless the opponent.

The hard tackles that were dangerous happened out of frustration and, of course, provocation at the end of the game. Prior to that the tackles were hard but pretty fair, imo.

I agree that it is the mourinho style, from Chelsea to Inter to Madrid it has been to same, except that in Madrid you have hotheads like Ramos and Marcelo to MR bordering insanity Pepe, so combined with the mourinho style it is really very physical.

That said I disagree that before the "near the end tackles", the tackles are hard but fair. Sure more of them are fairer than nearing the end, but for instance you have some dude basically coastlining pique during a corner.

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Post by Senor Penguin Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:06 pm

@ToEy wrote:
@Senor Penguin wrote:
@kiranr wrote:Yes Alfred, there is no logical reasoning for Madrid to tackle harder to prevent diving. It will only increase "diving" and playacting and also instigates the other side to tackle just as hard as we saw in the second leg.

I ask the Madrid fans, if they are reading this, to come up with example where teams have tackled harder to counter diving. Did Gentile kick and snap at Maradona because he dived?
I don't agree with the sentiment so I won't even bother to give examples. Smile

Madrid have begun to play aggressively because it's just Mourinho's style and it does work better as seen in the recent Clasico (I can't remember a game against Barca where we dispossessed them so successfully). Madrid's problem has always been - at least in the last decade - that they defended passively with little pressure on the ball holder. I don't believe the change has anything to do with the certain inclination some Barca players have for diving as Madrid in general play harder than they used to - regardless the opponent.

The hard tackles that were dangerous happened out of frustration and, of course, provocation at the end of the game. Prior to that the tackles were hard but pretty fair, imo.

I agree that it is the mourinho style, from Chelsea to Inter to Madrid it has been to same, except that in Madrid you have hotheads like Ramos and Marcelo to MR bordering insanity Pepe, so combined with the mourinho style it is really very physical.

That said I disagree that before the "near the end tackles", the tackles are hard but fair. Sure more of them are fairer than nearing the end, but for instance you have some dude basically coastlining pique during a corner.
Sh*t happens. If you instruct someone like Pepe to be aggressive you'll have to be prepared for a certain lack of impulse-control LOL.

There was definitely a lot of dirty play but it could've been worse and it did towards the end of the game.

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Post by kiranr Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:09 pm

@Senor Penguin wrote:
I don't agree with the sentiment so I won't even bother to give examples. Smile

Madrid have begun to play aggressively because it's just Mourinho's style and it does work better as seen in the recent Clasico (I can't remember a game against Barca where we dispossessed them so successfully). Madrid's problem has always been - at least in the last decade - that they defended passively with little pressure on the ball holder. I don't believe the change has anything to do with the certain inclination some Barca players have for diving as Madrid in general play harder than they used to - regardless the opponent.

The hard tackles that were dangerous happened out of frustration and, of course, provocation at the end of the game. Prior to that the tackles were hard but pretty fair, imo.

Thanks for your comment Penguin. Smile

This is what i think too. Needless to say, it has the desired effect judging by the recent spate of results and the way the game has progressed.
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Post by Omniscient Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:37 pm

I blame solely Busquets and nobody else.

Alves - Goes down easily
Pedro - Goes down easily
Di Maria - Goes down easily
Ronaldo - Goes down easily
Busquets - Touch his chest, goes down clutching his face and howling in agony with spasms in every muscle

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Post by kiranr Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:49 pm

@Omniscient wrote:I blame solely Busquets and nobody else.

Alves - Goes down easily
Pedro - Goes down easily
Di Maria - Goes down easily
Ronaldo - Goes down easily
Busquets - Touch his chest, goes down clutching his face and howling in agony with spasms in every muscle

Come on Omni, is one player's actions enough to spark violence like that? Every player now seems to be on the edge because of the nature of play that has evolved...
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Post by kiranr Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:50 pm

@ToEy wrote:Honestly that they should kick our players harder because our players dive only came from that french deluded dude sportzcy or whatever crap he is. This is the 2nd most stupid logic in football I have ever heard and it is an argument that borders at clutching at straws.

It is like saying bouncers at a club should beat up people that drink a lot because they are prone to being rowdy...yes its that stupid

It is not just him, there are many who agree with him....
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Post by free_cat Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:25 pm

Madrid started playing very physical way before any Barcelona player ever dived or playacted against them.
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Post by free_cat Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:29 pm

@Senor Penguin wrote:
I don't agree with the sentiment so I won't even bother to give examples. Smile

Madrid have begun to play aggressively because it's just Mourinho's style and it does work better as seen in the recent Clasico (I can't remember a game against Barca where we dispossessed them so successfully). Madrid's problem has always been - at least in the last decade - that they defended passively with little pressure on the ball holder. I don't believe the change has anything to do with the certain inclination some Barca players have for diving as Madrid in general play harder than they used to - regardless the opponent.

The hard tackles that were dangerous happened out of frustration and, of course, provocation at the end of the game. Prior to that the tackles were hard but pretty fair, imo.

Provocation? What provocation??

And the tackle that Marcelo made at the minute 55 to Messi was very fair, no?
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Post by the xcx Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:41 pm

@free_cat wrote:
@Senor Penguin wrote:
I don't agree with the sentiment so I won't even bother to give examples. Smile

Madrid have begun to play aggressively because it's just Mourinho's style and it does work better as seen in the recent Clasico (I can't remember a game against Barca where we dispossessed them so successfully). Madrid's problem has always been - at least in the last decade - that they defended passively with little pressure on the ball holder. I don't believe the change has anything to do with the certain inclination some Barca players have for diving as Madrid in general play harder than they used to - regardless the opponent.

The hard tackles that were dangerous happened out of frustration and, of course, provocation at the end of the game. Prior to that the tackles were hard but pretty fair, imo.

Provocation? What provocation??

And the tackle that Marcelo made at the minute 55 to Messi was very fair, no?
Get real son, that was no tackle, it was just an slight contact, Messi was just trying to make it like a big deal.
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Post by free_cat Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:46 pm

@The xcx wrote:
Get real son, that was no tackle, it was just an slight contact, Messi was just trying to make it like a big deal.

Read the rules, "son". That was an intent of agression, and a straight red. You just can stomp your studs when you are jumping to someone without trying to touch the ball. If you think that's allowed by the rules, I suggest you change to another sport.
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Post by the xcx Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:54 pm

@free_cat wrote:
@The xcx wrote:
Get real son, that was no tackle, it was just an slight contact, Messi was just trying to make it like a big deal.

Read the rules, "son". That was an intent of agression, and a straight red. You just can stomp your studs when you are jumping to someone without trying to touch the ball. If you think that's allowed by the rules, I suggest you change to another sport.
A selective memory I see? So if Marcelo deserved a card after touching messi in the air, same thing applies for Pedros tackle to Ramos.
Difference? Marcelo was trying to get the ball in air, while Pedro didint go for a ball. Every tackle isint worth a card to begin with.
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Post by free_cat Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:12 am

@The xcx wrote:
@free_cat wrote:
@The xcx wrote:
Get real son, that was no tackle, it was just an slight contact, Messi was just trying to make it like a big deal.

Read the rules, "son". That was an intent of agression, and a straight red. You just can stomp your studs when you are jumping to someone without trying to touch the ball. If you think that's allowed by the rules, I suggest you change to another sport.
A selective memory I see? So if Marcelo deserved a card after touching messi in the air, same thing applies for Pedros tackle to Ramos.
Difference? Marcelo was trying to get the ball in air, while Pedro didint go for a ball. Every tackle isint worth a card to begin with.

I don't know which play you mean involving Pedro and Ramos, but the point here, is that Marcelo wasn't doing a tackle, a tackle is to gain the posession of the ball, he jumped, and while at the air completely sold because he didn't reach the ball, he kicked messi with his studs. Straight red for intent of agression. Last time I try to explain you the rules. And I embed the video so you see it clearly:


Was Marcelo trying to touch the ball kicking Messi? Really?
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Post by Aristotle Onassis Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:17 am

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:As a mechanism against over-physical teams Barca has figured out that it needs to fall more easily* in order to get some calls rightly called in their favor. This is a defense mechanism against teams that, often, play like thugs against Barca. It's just as much of a tactic as rough, but not dangerous, tackles.

Anyways, there is no cyclical conundrum. Real plays aggressively against Barca because that's the only tactic that works. Because of this aggresive play, Barca feels like it must get a rightful call and tries to make the most of it. Since Madrid do rough tackles so often, Barca players have all the more chances to do this which gives off the impression that they dive more than any other team - an incorrect impression.

But anyways, there is no logical reason for why Madrid would tackle harder because Barca "dives".


*Diving, to me, means feigning a fall when there is no contact or close to no contact. Thus, I feel like the term is thrown around too easily when the fact is that the team does more play acting than diving, under this definition anyway.

This is how I see it.

Simply put, our team can't cope when a competition degenerates into a rough, physical contest, so the response is to even the playing field by going to ground, drawing the referees attention to the fouls. "Rough, physical contest" is putting it lightly -- a lot of Madrid's tackles are of the illegal kind.

I say 'our team', but really, you often see similar responses from Ronaldo and Di Maria, sometimes even Pepe and Carvalho when our players have made hard tackles on them.

As for being innately a 'diving' team ... I always thought those were just silly taunts. Does anyone really believe that?


Last edited by Aristotle Onassis on Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:26 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:19 am

That's a straight red - illegal foul with an intent to harm. No debate necessary.
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Post by the xcx Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:20 am

@free_cat wrote:
@The xcx wrote:
@free_cat wrote:
@The xcx wrote:
Get real son, that was no tackle, it was just an slight contact, Messi was just trying to make it like a big deal.

Read the rules, "son". That was an intent of agression, and a straight red. You just can stomp your studs when you are jumping to someone without trying to touch the ball. If you think that's allowed by the rules, I suggest you change to another sport.
A selective memory I see? So if Marcelo deserved a card after touching messi in the air, same thing applies for Pedros tackle to Ramos.
Difference? Marcelo was trying to get the ball in air, while Pedro didint go for a ball. Every tackle isint worth a card to begin with.

I don't know which play you mean involving Pedro and Ramos, but the point here, is that Marcelo wasn't doing a tackle, a tackle is to gain the posession of the ball, he jumped, and while at the air completely sold because he didn't reach the ball, he kicked messi with his studs. Straight red for intent of agression. Last time I try to explain you the rules. And I embed the video so you see it clearly:


Was Marcelo trying to touch the ball kicking Messi? Really?
Lol the last thing I need is an Cule giving me lecture about football rules Very Happy You got to take the "tackle" from the referees perspective. I think he was a far away to judge the contact, so he just gave an warning to Marcelo...Oh that tackle Pedro made to Ramos is here:

5:20.
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