Move over, Big Brother, NSA is doing it far more efficiently...

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Post by rwo power Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:17 am

Hm. I think this pro-gun stance is actually a bit bewildering...

Americans hate terrorists and love our kids, right? So you might be shocked to know that preschoolers with guns have taken more lives so far this year than the single U.S. terrorist attack, which claimed four lives in Boston.

This is admittedly tongue-in-cheek, but one has to wonder if the NSA's PRISM program would have saved more lives had it been monitoring toddlers - or gun owners - rather than suspected terrorists.
In 2010, 13,186 people died in terrorist attacks worldwide, while 31,672 people were killed with firearms in America alone, reports CNN's Samuel Burke.
http://www.sott.net/article/262876-Toddlers-with-guns-kill-more-Americans-than-terrorists

Then ponder this: Americans suffer assaults on their privacy — they are groped in public and wiretapped en masse — and surrender their constitutional protections against unwarranted searches in the name of the war on terror, yet they cannot muster the will to protect children from mass murder with military-style weapons. We have spent more than $1 trillion on homeland security since Sept. 11, 2001, yet have withheld annual funding of less than $3 million for research by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on gun violence.

Why are the First, Fourth and Fifth amendments subject to erosion in the name of homeland security, but the Second Amendment is beyond compromise in the name of saving innocent lives?

The risks of terrorism are not so much greater than the risks of gun violence that a disproportionate response is justified. Between 1969 and 2009, according to a 2011 Heritage Foundation study, 5,586 people were killed in terrorist attacks against the United States or its interests abroad. By comparison, about 30,000 people were killed by guns in the United States every year between 1986 and 2010. This means that about five times as many Americans are killed every year by guns than have been killed in terrorist attacks since Richard Nixon took office.
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-03-01/opinions/37364660_1_gun-violence-hadiya-pendleton-gun-industry

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Post by rwo power Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:43 am

By the way, here's another nice comment by the Guardian (i posted some excerpts, the full text is in the source link):

If you think GCHQ spying revelations don't matter, it's time to think again
by John Naughton

Will the revelation that GCHQ taps every internet communication that enters or leaves the UK mark the moment when ordinary citizens stop and say: "Oh, now I get it." A moment when people realise that the stuff that nerds and activists had been droning on about might actually affect them?

My hunch is that it isn't such a moment. Most people will just shrug their shoulders and get on with life. They will accept the assurances of those in authority and move on. If they do, then they will have missed something important. It is that our democracies have indeed reached a pivotal point. Ever since it first became clear that the internet was going to become the nervous system of the planet, the 64 billion dollar question was whether it would be "captured" by giant corporations or by governments. Now we know the answer: it's "both".

The parts of their reports that are deemed "publishable" are presented to Parliament. The non-publishable parts are, er, secret. In the last two weeks, the adjective "Orwellian" has been widely deployed. But "Kafkaesque" seems more appropriate to the situation in which we find ourselves. The conversation between the state and the citizen has been reduced to a dialogue that the writer would have recognised. It goes like this.

State Although intrusive surveillance does infringe a few liberties, it's necessary if you are to be protected from terrible things.

Citizen (anxiously) What terrible things?

State Can't tell you, I'm afraid, but believe us they are truly terrible. And, by the way, surveillance has already prevented some terrible things.

Citizen Such as?

State Sorry, can't go into details about those either.

Citizen So how do I know that this surveillance racket isn't just bureaucratic empire building?

State You don't need to worry about that because it's all done under legal authority.

Citizen So how does that work?

State Regrettably, we can't go into details because if we did so then the bad guys might get some ideas.

What it comes down to, in the end, is: "Trust us." And the trouble with that is that in recent decades our political elites have done precious little to deserve our trust. Now we're being asked to suspend our disbelief as they eavesdrop on all of our online activities – to trust them, in a way, with the most intimate details of our social and private lives. And all on the basis of laws that they – or their security apparatuses – wrote in order to rationalise and legitimate their snooping.

What we're witnessing is the metamorphosis of our democracies into national security states in which the prerogatives of security authorities trump every other consideration and in which critical or sceptical appraisal of them is ruled out of court.
Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/22/gchq-internet-snooping-kafkaesque


Last edited by rwo power on Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by RedOranje Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:43 am

Shhh, rwo.

Don't you dare threaten our 2nd Amendment rights! The REST of the Constitution is clearly outdated in the modern age and there should be LESS protection for minorities and privacy rights, but an amendment written when we had legitimate concerns over invasion and did not have a standing, trained military, and when people regularly hunted for a living/food and when weapons were all single fire musket-loaded designs is CLEARLY still applicable.


DON'T TREAD ON ME!
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Post by rwo power Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:52 am

Awww. I just think it is funny how afraid of terrorist attacks people are in the US that they instead embrace being snooped upon and everything. The gun stuff was just a side-product, and really when I saw that toddler thing I could but shake my head. Better jail those armed toddlers immediately - they pose a much bigger thread than terrorists and the state spying on you together ^^
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Post by I Have Mono Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:16 am

I'm not pro-gun to be honest buttttt I'm not entirely anti-gun however either.

I had to research gun violence and depending on how guns are reduced depends on how successful it is. Australia and England very, New York, Chicago, Illinois, California not so much where you can just go to Indiana or Arizona and walk out with a Ak-47
If done properly I support it but not half ass the way it is done now but let's not get off topic now albino

And nothing about journalism today makes me trust the Media exactly like the Walter Cronkite era. I have to deal with idiots like Bill Riley, Anderson cooper, Glen beck, etc where anyone can end up on tv or "publish an article"
People trust Jon Stewart and Stephan Colbert more which says a lot.

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Post by rwo power Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:33 am

I Have Mono wrote:I had to research gun violence and depending on how guns are reduced depends on how successful it is. Australia and England very, New York, Chicago, Illinois, California not so much where you can just go to Indiana or Arizona and walk out with a Ak-47
If done properly I support it but not half ass the way it is done now but let's not get off topic now albino
Well, in Germany we luckily have comparatively little gun violence in most areas. Of course, bad guys always have the chance to arm themselves, but as guns are by far not as ubiquitous as in the US, the number of gun related accidents leading to death and injuries is not so big.

And a killed person is usually dead, no matter whether it is due to an intended gunshot by a criminal or by an accident, maybe involving kids or toddlers. The latter is particularly disturbing - I mean, pro-gun people say "our kids are fine, they are taught from early on how dangerous guns can be" - but why are then so many deadly accidents involving kids and guns?

I mean, you don't let 4 or 5 year old kids drive cars either. You don't even let 20 year old people legally drink alcohol in the US because you deem alcohol dangerous, so why do you let little kids play will deadly arms?

I Have Mono wrote:And nothing about journalism today makes me trust the Media exactly like the Walter Cronkite era. I have to deal with idiots like Bill Riley, Anderson cooper, Glen beck, etc where anyone can end up on tv or "publish an article"
People trust Jon Stewart and Stephan Colbert more which says a lot.
Well, that is why I usually don't only read German media, but media of other countries, too - preferably in the language it was written in as even translation can be used to manipulate the content. If I post mainly English or US media for people to read here, it is because I have to assume that most English or US people are only able to read and understand English.

You know, it is fine when English/US people think "well, we are the big guys, English is the world language, we should expect everybody to speak and understand English", but that makes you very, very vulnerable to misinformation. And better don't trust Google or Yahoo to translate stuff for you - 1st it is routed via NSA/GCHQ and second it is easy to modify translations via a machine so that problematic stuff just happens to get filtered away.

From what I gathered, the US media preferred to run the internet snooping stuff rather subduedly. For a more open and critical reporting including rather retailed articles on the ramifications it can lead to, you might better look into European media. But not only such stuff gets wiped under the carpet in the US.

Or did you know that the NRA actively blocked research into gun-related violence by the CDC and the publication of gun critical studies from 1996 up to 2013?

Oh, and by the way, to come back to your statement
I Have Mono wrote:The American citizen of today are a lot better armed then the German citizen of the 40's so it would be hard to do that on a nationwide scale, one reason why Americans like their guns.
in response to why something like in the 3rd Reich or East Germany couldn't happen in the US... Are you really sure?

When exactly  is the time to raise your arms to defend yourself? And how can you rally the "free citizens"? As all ways of information in the US are under close surveillance, you have no chance whatsoever to organise a defense against any totalitarist machinations anymore.

Oh, by the way - did you know that the US of A put more people into prison than any other nation world wide? A study of the International Centre for Prison Studies published the following data: in 2011, about 10.1 million people were serving terms in prison world-wide - 2 292 133 of them in the USA alone. If you put it into relative data, you get 743 people in prison per 100 000 people living there. Not even Russia (568), Belarus (381) or China (122) have such high numbers. Contrast this with 153 people in prison per 100 000 in England+Wales or 85 people in prison per 100 000 in Germany or 96 per 100 000 in France.

Source: http://www.prisonstudies.org/images/news_events/wppl9.pdf of the ICPS in London http://www.prisonstudies.org/

I think the combination of perfect surveillance and the propensity of throwing people into prison should be rather worrisome to the people in the "Land of the Free".

Oh, by the way, in the US you can't even say you really have democratic elections in the first place either. The process with electoral delegates can easily lead to undemocratic results as it is possible to elect a president with only 23% of the voters.
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Post by Swanhends Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:35 pm

Im shocked at how strong the illusion of privacy is in this thread...The only place real privacy exists is in your thoughts and (to a small extent) your home, and that shift began before even 9/11: Drastically increased technological capabilities + organizations realizing the value of data = kiss your "privacy" goodbye

In terms of the government: when toeing the line between over-surveillance and under-surveillance, the government will err on the side of over-surveillance 100% of the time

Monitor too closely and you might annoy a portion of the public

Monitor too loosely and suffer a large-scale terrorist attack and everyone will freak out...like they said in men in black: "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

....easy decision for the feds to make





Not saying I agree with it; personally I would gladly sacrifice quite a bit of security for the sake of liberty, but I accept and respect that my outlook on life seems to be quite different than most, and there are plenty of people who would not make that choice....I just think there is some serious naivety in this thread as to the nature of privacy in the 21st century
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Post by rwo power Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:29 pm

@Swanhends

You underestimate how allergic Germans are to surveillance. We had that twice within the last 80 years in two totalitarian regimes and that is why people are fighting with teeth and nails for their privacy here.
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Post by Swanhends Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:47 pm

rwo power wrote:@Swanhends

You underestimate how allergic Germans are to surveillance. We had that twice within the last 80 years in two totalitarian regimes and that is why people are fighting with teeth and nails for their privacy here.

You're limiting surveillance to the government though, which is short-sighted IMO

Take a look around, I mean literally take a look around yourself. Everything you are surrounded by that was purchased by means other than cash saw personal information about yourself transferred to the company you bought the product from, and you had to send personal information to the credit card company in the first place. Used cash? The bank has your personal information. I use netflix, they have a history of everything I've watched on their service. My parents use cable TV, the company has a list of everything they've watched on demand (on top of the information transferred at purchase). Even if the phone company is not actively listening in on our calls, they still have records of who my parents have called and who has called my parents. Unless you use a very strong proxy server every single time you access the internet, your ISP has record of what you've done. Buy a car, buy a home? Info sent to the dealership, the car company, the bank, and the company that handles credit checks...Oh by the way you have to get your car registered with the state and submit more personal information to the insurance company. Go to college? Information going to states, universities, and banks. Want to apply for a job? Information required by employers, possible background checks. This is before even mentioning cell-phones..


There may not be people from these places actively watching you, but the fact is that your personal information is all over the place, and any organization with enough resources can piece it together easily...Privacy is an illusion



Everyone wants the privacy of living off the grid, without all the inconvenience.....but thats not how it works
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Post by rwo power Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:26 pm

Well, you know I only use cash and definitely not anything like payback cards and stuff. And I don't have cable TV either (satellite TV is more far spread in Germany anyway as it is cheaper than cable). And as I mentioned before, I don't own a mobile phone for a reason, too. I have been rather paranoid for ages (ever since the internet became commercial, that is) Razz
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Post by RedOranje Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:52 pm

Swanhends wrote:Im shocked at how strong the illusion of privacy is in this thread...The only place real privacy exists is in your thoughts and (to a small extent) your home, and that shift began before even 9/11: Drastically increased technological capabilities + organizations realizing the value of data = kiss your "privacy" goodbye

In terms of the government: when toeing the line between over-surveillance and under-surveillance, the government will err on the side of over-surveillance 100% of the time

Monitor too closely and you might annoy a portion of the public

Monitor too loosely and suffer a large-scale terrorist attack and everyone will freak out...like they said in men in black: "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

....easy decision for the feds to make





Not saying I agree with it; personally I would gladly sacrifice quite a bit of security for the sake of liberty, but I accept and respect that my outlook on life seems to be quite different than most, and there are plenty of people who would not make that choice....I just think there is some serious naivety in this thread as to the nature of privacy in the 21st century

There's a difference between naivety and blind support. We're arguing against the latter.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:29 pm

Snowdengate turning into blockbuster material as we speak.

US' deception level: over 9000
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Post by Swanhends Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:19 am

Naturally the media has basically lost sight of the real NSA story and is instead fixated on "herpy derpy wheres Snowden?!?"

Honestly is it really all that surprising that the government can get away with this when THESE are our watchdogs?
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Post by RealGunner Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:25 am

Snowden is most probably in Russia. He is never getting found.
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Post by M99 Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:37 am

I'm with bhends here, why are people so surprised?

NSA is probably watching this thread too albino
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Post by rwo power Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:04 am

M99 wrote:I'm with bhends here, why are people so surprised?

NSA is probably watching this thread too albino
Hm. There is always a difference between suspecting something and knowing something.

Moreover, if - as you say - people always knew it anyway, why did the US then get so ballistic for the anyway known info being published? ^^

There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment. How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to."
George Orwell, 1984
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Post by SaintJoe Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:36 pm

(Reuters) - The United States taps half a billion phone calls, emails and text messages in Germany in a typical month and has classed its biggest European ally as a target similar to China, according to secret U.S. documents quoted by a German newsmagazine.
The revelations of alleged U.S. surveillance programs based on documents taken by fugitive former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden have raised a political furor in the United States and abroad over the balance between privacy rights and national security.

Exposing the latest details in a string of reputed spying programs, Der Spiegel quoted from an internal NSA document which it said its reporters had seen.

The document Spiegel cited showed that the United States categorized Germany as a "third-class" partner and that surveillance there was stronger than in any other EU country, similar in extent to China, Iraq or Saudi-Arabia.

"We can attack the signals of most foreign third-class partners, and we do it too," Der Spiegel quoted a passage in the NSA document as saying.

It said the document showed that the NSA monitored phone calls, text messages, emails and internet chat contributions and has saved the metadata - that is, the connections, not the content - at its headquarters.

On an average day, the NSA monitored about 20 million German phone connections and 10 million internet data sets, rising to 60 million phone connections on busy days, the report said.

It's scary how much power the NSA has Neutral
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Post by RealGunner Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:13 pm

They potentially have more power than the president. (Obama himself was spied upon back in 2006 lol)
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:17 pm

BERLIN (AP) — German federal prosecutors say they are looking into whether reported U.S. electronic surveillance programs broke German laws.

The Federal Prosecutors' Office said in a statement Sunday that it was probing the claims so as to "achieve a reliable factual basis" before considering whether a formal investigation was warranted.

It also said private citizens were likely to file criminal complaints on the matter.

Germany news weekly Der Spiegel reports that at least one such complaint was lodged with prosecutors in the state of Hesse last week.

The magazine reported Sunday that apart from its PRISM program used to eavesdrop on Internet traffic, the U.S. National Security Agency also spied on European Union offices on both sides of the Atlantic.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

A top German official accused the United States on Sunday of using "Cold War" methods against its allies, after a German magazine cited secret intelligence documents to claim that U.S. spies bugged European Union offices.

Justice Minister Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger was responding to a report by German news weekly Der Spiegel, which claimed that the U.S. National Security Agency eavesdropped on EU offices in Washington, New York and Brussels. The magazine cited classified U.S. documents taken by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden that it said it had partly seen.

"If the media reports are accurate, then this recalls the methods used by enemies during the Cold War," Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger said in a statement to The Associated Press.

"It is beyond comprehension that our friends in the United States see Europeans as enemies," she said, calling for an "immediate and comprehensive" response from the U.S. government to the claims.

According to Der Spiegel, the NSA planted bugs in the EU's diplomatic offices in Washington and infiltrated the building's computer network. Similar measures were taken at the EU's mission to the United Nations in New York, the magazine said.

Der Spiegel didn't publish the alleged NSA documents it cited or say how it obtained access to them. But one of the report's authors is Laura Poitras, an award-winning documentary filmmaker who interviewed Snowden while he was holed up in Hong Kong.

The magazine also didn't specify how it learned of the NSA's alleged eavesdropping efforts at a key EU office in Brussels. There, the NSA used secure facilities at NATO headquarters nearby to dial into telephone maintenance systems that would have allowed it to intercept senior EU officials' calls and Internet traffic, Der Spiegel report said.

Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger urged EU Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso to take personal responsibility for investigating the allegations.

The United States has defended its efforts to intercept electronic communications overseas by arguing that this has helped prevent terror attacks at home and abroad.
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Post by Swanhends Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:22 pm

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Post by Juveman17 Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:00 am

McLewis wrote:The Patriot Act, lady and gents.

Bush's admin created it, Obama's admin continues it. The GOP championed it. 

Now they don't recognize it.




Quoted from the video and Patriot Act:

"The law under which the government collected this data, Section 215 of the Patriot ACT, allows the F.B.I. to obtain court orders demanding that a person or company produce 'tangible things,' upon showing reasonable grounds that the things sought are 'relevant' to an authorized foreign intelligence investigation.'

"Even in a fearful time when the Patriot Act was enacted, in October 2001, lawmakers NEVER contemplated that section 215 would be used for phone metadata or mass surveillance of any sort."

This provision put in the Patriot Act was meant to stop something like this from  ever happening. If you watch the video, the man who created the Patriot Act even says what the government is doing is illegal.

This isn't about Republican's or Democracts at all.
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Post by Juveman17 Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:44 pm

I Have Mono wrote:The supreme court has always been the law of the land but ita biased. If the supreme court justices are impartial like they are supposed to be why does it matter if they are all white, all mexican, all black, all men, or all women, they are not impartial thats why.
So to tell me something that gets passed 5-4 by Biased judges can not be bent a little is ridiculous.

The us constitution is so outdated its not even funny, what founding father had to foresight to think in 250 years we would have giant satillites, the ability to instantly communicate with each other, automatic weapons.

The country is so divided its basically impossible to amend the constitution with anything valid. So yes I'm ok with bending the rules a little bit.
'
Incorrect. THE CONSTITUTION is declared as the Supreme Law of the Land. The Supreme Court interprets the law and is the Supreme Court in the land. The SC has not made any ruling on this case but it is completely obvious that the government is breaking the 4th Amendment AND the Patriot Act which makes it illegal.
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Post by Juveman17 Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:48 pm

Please explain to me what probable cause the the goverment have to get millions of data and spy on US citizens?
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Post by rwo power Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:05 am

Russia decided to undertake measures to make sure that the USA can't spy into their important intelligence agency paperwork anymore via the internet: they ordered typewriters to actually make it paperwork again!

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/russian-intelligence-seeks-typewriters-for-secret-documents-a-910677.html
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Post by Kaladin Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:01 pm

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Post by rwo power Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:45 am

The Guardian just published another pretty interesting Article... You might want to visit the Guardian for the screenshots of the slides, BTW.

Spoiler:
Source: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data
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