Dutch football federation encourages gay players to come out of the closet

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Post by Bellabong Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:32 am

Idri, you're condoning hiding what you are as a person "laying low" because society is discriminatory.

I don't know how to put it any clearer than that and the holocaust comparison is valid because he describes the exact same principle when referring to it an example.

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Post by eelir Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:41 am

The Messiah wrote:
If I am offensive by simply stating the outcome of past incident then I wonder what else will be considered offensive. I don't think there is any need for any gay player to come out publicly and say I'm gay, there will be no point in doing so, if there is an inevitable incident that eventually leads to that, say for example maybe secret tape of gay sex, then he can come out and say it.


Straight people don't have any need of coming out to say I am straight, same should apply to gay people, no need to make big deal out of this.

I think no gay person wants to get a banner and hold it all the time proclaiming his gayhood. Coming out of closet does not mean just saying it out loud, and you don't need a sex tape to show your gay. Straight people don't come out and say they are straight, but they go out on dates with woman. What if some player goes out on candle light romantic dinner with a guy? Would that be considered as coming out for you? Is that publicly saying he is gay? Will this sparkle a huge mediatic interest? Will he be asked if he is gay? Should he lie?

So this hypothetical gay player should never go out on a nice dinner, because he should pretend he is straight. Your statement makes only sense if all players never go out on public with a woman and never get married. In such case i think we can consider that none of them are "saying" it publicly.
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Post by The Messiah Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:44 am

Phritz wrote:Idri, you're condoning hiding what you are as a person "laying low" because society is discriminatory.

I don't know how to put it any clearer than that and the holocaust comparison is valid because he describes the exact same principle when referring to it an example.

You don't need to put it to me in anyway. who says you are hiding who you are as a person..? You don't even know anything about me on this forum, but if there is need to I will tell you, say for example if we have business.


I have already pointed it out, and I will make it a little bit more elementary for you to understand. say for example, if a gay player is confronted by the media or anyone and then ask them, ARE YOU GAY..? if such and such person feel ok with revealing their personal life to the public, then why not.


But I don't think it is smart to publicly come out and start saying to everyone, I'm gay, I'm gay, to me it's childish and I don't think normal professional will act that way, straight people don't come out and start saying I'm straight.




Last edited by The Messiah on Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:50 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post by The Messiah Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:47 am

eelir wrote:
The Messiah wrote:
If I am offensive by simply stating the outcome of past incident then I wonder what else will be considered offensive. I don't think there is any need for any gay player to come out publicly and say I'm gay, there will be no point in doing so, if there is an inevitable incident that eventually leads to that, say for example maybe secret tape of gay sex, then he can come out and say it.


Straight people don't have any need of coming out to say I am straight, same should apply to gay people, no need to make big deal out of this.

I think no gay person wants to get a banner and hold it all the time proclaiming his gayhood. Coming out of closet does not mean just saying it out loud, and you don't need a sex tape to show your gay. Straight people don't come out and say they are straight, but they go out on dates with woman. What if some player goes out on candle light romantic dinner with a guy? Would that be considered as coming out for you? Is that publicly saying he is gay? Will this sparkle a huge mediatic interest? Will he be asked if he is gay? Should he lie?

So this hypothetical gay player should never go out on a nice dinner, because he should pretend he is straight. Your statement makes only sense if all players never go out on public with a woman and never get married. In such case i think we can consider that none of them are "saying" it publicly.

no one is holding them not to go on dates with fellow gay people.
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Post by Bellabong Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:50 am

Time for a different approach because you really don't understand the point. Idri would you be perfectly happy if public changing rooms and toilets weren't gender segregated?

As in a woman is behind you touching up her makeup while you're standing at a urinal, or showering around women who you're not attracted to?
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Post by The Messiah Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:01 am

Phritz wrote:Time for a different approach because you really don't understand the point. Idri would you be perfectly happy if public changing rooms and toilets weren't gender segregated?

As in a woman is behind you touching up her makeup while you're standing at a urinal, or showering around women who you're not attracted to?

first of all to begin with, MOST PEOPLE will be happy if public BATHROOMS(excluding toilets) are not gender segregated, because they clearly get to see some and one way or the other it satisfy's something.


I have showered with many women I am not attracted to, I have even slept with some. If I was gay and I get to see naked men all the time, I will not make one single complaint, chances are I might even want to hide it so I don't lost this great benefit. it's comparable to me seeing naked women all the time, you said women I'm not attracted to, but in reality it will be mixed, since not all footballers male are ugly, although most gay people wouldn't like to go to certain clubs filled with ugly people. I don't want to mention any club specifically( so as not to offend anyone) but the club is full of short/midget players winning world/European best players all of the time.



This topic is not a big deal to me, it's comparable to this post, because clearly you can see that I am not taking it seriously. I hope people get my message on this post, gay people should just live their live no big in doing so.
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Post by Bellabong Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:15 am

Wow, I ask a simple yes or no question and you write a wall of text without answering the question and even twisting it but I'll go along with it. Why do you want toilets segregated?

I hope you don't mean your last post because now you're just admitting willful ignorance which is even more offensive. Not only that, you're condoning voyeurism making you nothing more than a creepy pervert.
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Post by The Messiah Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:22 am

Phritz wrote:Wow, I ask a simple yes or no question and you write a wall of text without answering the question and even twisting it but I'll go along with it. Why do you want toilets segregated?

I hope you don't mean your last post because now you're just admitting willful ignorance which is even more offensive.
Phritz wrote:Wow, I ask a simple yes or no question and you write a wall of text without answering the question and even twisting it but I'll go along with it. Why do you want toilets segregated?

I hope you don't mean your last post because now you're just admitting willful ignorance which is even more offensive. Not only that, you're condoning voyeurism making you nothing more than a creepy pervert.


Who want to see anyone using the toilet, usually I only use the toilet while I am at home before taking my bath. I find it difficult using public toilet.


I know you got what I mean, let's not pretend, it's like free porn. for those who are big fans of porno or go to stripe clubs, you get to see women naked for free.
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Post by Bellabong Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:27 am

So what does gender segregation have to do with being uncomfortable about taking a piss?

As to your voyeuristic tendencies, can you understand how those women would be uncomfortable with that?
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Post by McLewis Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:27 am

Going to move this to the politics section. This convo has become more a social issue than a footballing one.
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Post by gondov Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:43 am

The Messiah wrote:
Phritz wrote:Time for a different approach because you really don't understand the point. Idri would you be perfectly happy if public changing rooms and toilets weren't gender segregated?

As in a woman is behind you touching up her makeup while you're standing at a urinal, or showering around women who you're not attracted to?

first of all to begin with, MOST PEOPLE will be happy if public BATHROOMS(excluding toilets) are not gender segregated, because they clearly get to see some and one way or the other it satisfy's something.


I have showered with many women I am not attracted to, I have even slept with some. If I was gay and I get to see naked men all the time, I will not make one single complaint, chances are I might even want to hide it so I don't lost this great benefit. it's comparable to me seeing naked women all the time, you said women I'm not attracted to, but in reality it will be mixed, since not all footballers male are ugly, although most gay people wouldn't like to go to certain clubs filled with ugly people. I don't want to mention any club specifically( so as not to offend anyone) but the club is full of short/midget players winning world/European best players all of the time.



This topic is not a big deal to me, it's comparable to this post, because clearly you can see that I am not taking it seriously. I hope people get my message on this post, gay people should just live their live no big in doing so.

rofl
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Post by Bellabong Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:01 am

McLewis wrote:Going to move this to the politics section. This convo has become more a social issue than a footballing one.

Now you're just saying homophobia is a non-issue in football.








I keed, I keed :p
But yeah Idri has embarassed himself enough on this forum, got what I wanted without even having to make him understand how he is being offensive.

I'll just leave at the immature creepy pervert part and leave it at that.
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Post by McLewis Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:20 pm

Not much of a secret that the more devoutly religious you are, the less accepting you will be of things like homosexuality. When you grow and are taught the ways of a religion that says that this is unnatural and an abomination. What should we expect?

You can't really make them understand that as that would be undoing years of that stuff being put in their head. When he's reading to understand it, he will.
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Post by RealGunner Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:24 pm

an off topic question

What will one be called if he likes lesbians but not gays ?
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Post by Potential Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:32 pm

RealGunner wrote:an off topic question

What will one be called if he likes lesbians but not gays ?

Hypocrite sounds about right (given that he dislikes gays and not neutral)
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Post by Bellabong Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:40 pm

Sexist, chauvinistic, hypocritical would be appropriate. I tried to find the term for a fetish of watching two members of the opposite sex go at it but searching "Lesbian fetish" on the internet doesn't work that well.
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Post by RealGunner Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:46 pm

hmm interesting views.

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Post by Mamad Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:55 pm

RealGunner wrote:an off topic question

What will one be called if he likes lesbians but not gays ?

Well i think i fit in here lol.

I have no problem with lesbians but i have problem with gay men. i just have a bad feeling about them and i can't do anything about it.
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Post by RealGunner Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:48 pm

McLewis wrote:Not much of a secret that the more devoutly religious you are, the less accepting you will be of things like homosexuality. When you grow and are taught the ways of a religion that says that this is unnatural and an abomination. What should we expect?

You can't really make them understand that as that would be undoing years of that stuff being put in their head. When he's reading to understand it, he will.

I don't think being homophobic comes strictly down to Religion because i know a lot of non-religious people who are homophobic. Obviously religion does prohibits it, but it doesn't generate any different dislike which you won't find in a non-religious guy.
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Post by stevieg8 Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:44 pm

The Messiah wrote:Gay people should do whatever pleases them, I now understand that coming out to make a statement such as saying a former gay player like Justin Fashanu committed suicide partly because of coming out publicly is now considered by "Mr I know it all", "Mr I sugar coat things" "Mr I lack reality checks, as being offensive.


If I am offensive by simply stating the outcome of past incident then I wonder what else will be considered offensive. I don't think there is any need for any gay player to come out publicly and say I'm gay, there will be no point in doing so, if there is an inevitable incident that eventually leads to that, say for example maybe secret tape of gay sex, then he can come out and say it.


Straight people don't have any need of coming out to say I am straight, same should apply to gay people, no need to make big deal out of this.


and I I also think it's also stupid to commit suicide, also it's stupid to compare Holocaust or rape victim with this topic, because obviously one hold more significant than the other, Holocaust victim were killed in the worst way imaginable unlike this gay dude that took his own life, it's also different from a rape victim who was FORCEFULLY held down.


If you are gay, you are gay and SO!!!! why do you have to put it in my gadanm handsome face or the world at large for that matter, I mean no straight person come to me and say, "the Messiah I am straight" when clearly there is absolutely no need to say so, if a girl says it to me I am straight and I find her pretty I will probably think she wants some and some she'll get.

Also I thought celebrities and public figures likes keeping their private lives to themselves, why should we now encourage people to reveal to us their private doings.


Honestly I can't be bother if someone is gay, it's hold no meaning in my measure, and if you come to me and start telling me, oh! Do you know I am gay, my reply is and SO!! move aside and if you persist, I might take it for harassment and could probably do something about it

You weren't just pointing out the outcome, though. That wouldn't be offensive. What was offensive was that your response to the situation was for the man who committed suicide to not be openly gay next time, instead of blaming the people who harassed him for his sexuality into committing suicide. I'm not sure how you don't understand that; I quoted the exact sentence that said it.

I don't think you understand what "coming out" means, though. It means being open with being gay, not with publicizing it. The Dutch FA is not encouraging footballers to make out on the field or put out sex tapes or to make banners that say "I'M GAY!" with rainbows and run through them out onto the field, '80s sports movie montage style. Coming out means being open with the fact that you're gay; it means if a reporter asks in a press conference if you're a homosexual, you say yes; it means if paparazzi see you on a date with another man, you don't have to hide; it means if you choose to go to a gay club, you don't need a disguise; it means if you want to get married, or live with another man, you can. Those things are all discriminated against in the sporting world - previous posts, both from myself and from others, discuss specific examples; you can do a quick google search to find more. Information on this is readily accessible (albeit in an anonymous nature - the stories don't have names, for the reasons I stated earlier).

I said in an earlier post that if gay people make you uncomfortable, that's fine. I don't care what your personal opinion is towards gay people. If you don't want to see them, talk to them, interact with them, I couldn't care less. They're probably better off for it. What I take issue with is you encouraging them to hide their sexual orientation. They're not asking you to look at it, they're simply asking that they be allowed to have it known by the general public. Denying them that right is oppressive.

P.S. I don't think you know what the phrase "sugar coating" means. You should look it up.
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Post by Bellabong Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:22 pm

RealGunner wrote:
McLewis wrote:Not much of a secret that the more devoutly religious you are, the less accepting you will be of things like homosexuality. When you grow and are taught the ways of a religion that says that this is unnatural and an abomination. What should we expect?

You can't really make them understand that as that would be undoing years of that stuff being put in their head. When he's reading to understand it, he will.

I don't think being homophobic comes strictly down to Religion because i know a lot of non-religious people who are homophobic. Obviously religion does prohibits it, but it doesn't generate any different dislike which you won't find in a non-religious guy.

You don't have to be religious - we are raised with certain beliefs and subtle expectations and when something that goes against those expectations comes up it triggers discomfort. It doesn't take blatant religious homophobia - if you're raised until your late teens (when most people are confronted by homosexuality), over a decade in your most formative years thinking that love is something that occours between a man and a woman or that everyone has a mother or father or that girls are princesses or damsels in distress while boys are princes and saviors etc. and then a gay couple comes along and shatters that paradigm it's going to make you uncomfortable.

Take food for example - doesn't one feel uncomfortable about watching someone else eat eye balls or bulls testicles even though the watcher isn't eating it themselves?

Two girls one cup is a perfect example as the extreme form of this - everyone is raised to think faeces is well... faeces. Thus the discomfort we feel is as strong as the "indoctrination" (being told that or from forming your own opinion) of faeces being disgusting.

With homosexuality the indoctrination is far more subtle, generally. Homosexuals who reach puberty grow up with those subtle expectations are almost always confused about their new feelings until they are reassured it's a common natural occourence - they wouldn't have to come to terms with their own sexuality if they were exposed to these concepts before hand.

It doesn't help that the most common high school insult is a slur on homosexuality and that won't change for a while - hell we still use bastard which ceased being a genuine insult hundreds of years ago or retard which is based on mental disabilities.

It doesn't take blatant instruction for you to form a paradigm and then feel uncomfortable when that worldview is shattered. It's the same discomfort that a religious person feels around an atheist.

Anti-semitism was perfectly fine and accepted by ALL western cultures (due to the catholic perception of jews and the association with Judas) until a couple of guys in Hitler's regime took it to the extreme and now we're uncomfortable with anti-semitism because it's associated with the holocaust and the Nazi regime.

Homosexuality had the STD stigma, especially in the eighties - one of the best stand-ups of all time, Eddie Murphy's Delirious - plays on this stigma.

Marijuana has a less invasive effect than Alcohol and yet which one is illegal and taking forever to become accepted due to the polarising 60's and 70's? Which one is consumed in religious texts? And for a modern question which one threatens to be serious competition for the timber and plastics industry? But that's a different topic.

It'll take just a generation or so until marijuana gets rid of the hippy stigma and homosexuality the STD stigma but the main purveyor of homophobia remains: Religion, which sadly will probably persist for centuries or until a discovery is made that even religion can't find excuses for.
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Post by McLewis Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:53 pm

RealGunner wrote:
McLewis wrote:Not much of a secret that the more devoutly religious you are, the less accepting you will be of things like homosexuality. When you grow and are taught the ways of a religion that says that this is unnatural and an abomination. What should we expect?

You can't really make them understand that as that would be undoing years of that stuff being put in their head. When he's reading to understand it, he will.

I don't think being homophobic comes strictly down to Religion because i know a lot of non-religious people who are homophobic. Obviously religion does prohibits it, but it doesn't generate any different dislike which you won't find in a non-religious guy.

Ehh it generates a ridiculous amount of misconception just as it did when they kept trying to tell us the earth was flat and the sun revolves around the earth. To say otherwise was considered heresy and they killed people over it. Homosexuality was much the same and the consequences of getting caught in a situation like that were almost always fatal.

So as much as it's about hetero men not liking the mannerisms, the appearance, the way of talking, etc etc....as with anything society considers taboo, it almost always stems from organized religion one way or another.
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Post by Bellabong Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:53 pm

So I did a little reading and surprise surprise, homophobia can be traced all over the world to the Abrahamic religions and the "sin" of sodomy.

Heterosexual men do not have a natural aversion to homosexuality as proven time and time again by cultures not influenced by the Abrahamic religions. From Japan (Buddhism & Samurai[more pedophilia than homosexuality]) to Native America (Homosexuals would often become the shamans as "two-spirit" people) and even pre-christian Rome an overwhelming majority of societies condoned and even promoted it.

McLewis, the belief that people thought the Earth was flat 600 years ago is flat out wrong and one of the biggest misconceptions in modern times. Scholars at least knew the Earth was round and had a general idea of its circumference starting with Erastothenes around 200BC.
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Post by FalcaoPunch Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:33 am

Phritz wrote:
The Messiah wrote:There is a lot more to this topic, if it was normal people shouldn't even be talking about coming out or not. Personally I don't think being gay will have effect on my opinion of any player, well I can't be sure for certain until a gay players come out public then I can ascertain if my opinion on him will change.

You try to attack my integrity as a person from your own misunderstanding and yet here you are spewing offensive bs about how your opinion could be affected after finding out a players sexual preference over which they have absolutely no control over.

ColoJunior wrote:No problem if someone is gay.
Problem is if someone is gay is demanding "rights"

When they already have the same rights as everyone else. Man or woman.

This statement blows my mind in its ignorance. How much more offensive can stupidity get?

A gay partner does not have the same rights as a husband/wife. In the US for example a partner can't visit his/her SO in the hospital or be a medical proxy.

Gay couples don't get the same tax and financial benefits as a married couple and last time I checked being homo stops one from being allowed to fight for his country.

And you say homosexuals don't have the same rights - do a little research before you offer an opinion on a subject because you're embarrassing yourself.

Yohan Modric wrote:Why should whether their gay affect football?

Being straight doesn't affect anyone?

People are uncomfortable about showering/getting dressed in front of someone who could be sexually attracted to them - don't you ever wonder why changing rooms are segregated? The homophobic influences of the Abrahamic religions certainly don't help societies perception of homosexuality.

Then there's homophobic parents and societies who would refuse their children and members from idolizing and supporting a homosexual player.

Until society realizes that discrimination based on sexual preferences is the same as making fun of a kid born autistic or without limbs - they never had a choice in how they were born - then homophobia in sports will persist.

Why do you think there was such and uproar about Janet's Superbowl incident or the Phelps bonghit? Parents don't want their children to idolize and emulate people who they perceive as bad influence.

None of it is rational, but such is the world we live in.


You have rights as a man.
You have rights as a woman.

What did I get wrong?
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Post by Bellabong Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:08 pm

You're *bleep* trolling me right?

I just laid out just a few of the examples where homosexuals don't have the same rights and that's your response?

Do you want me to list the alarming amount of countries where homosexuality carries the death penalty?

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Dutch football federation encourages gay players to come out of the closet - Page 2 Empty Re: Dutch football federation encourages gay players to come out of the closet

Post by FalcaoPunch Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:44 pm

I'm not stating rights as a homosexual. I'm merely stating that if you are a MAN or a WOMAN you have rights to begin with.

There is male and female.
As an individual man you have your own civil rights.
And as individual woman. Well at least here in the states.

And rights for homosexuals are expanding. But they've had rights to begin with. Their are specific things that like you mentioned but I doubt those will be there much longer.

Oh and here in the states. The don't ask don't tell policy is gone last time I checked. And you can be gay and serve in the country. Unless that changed again recently.


Now with other countries and death penalties that is very harsh. But I'm sure those same countries still stone and belittle woman as well. Why because they're still in a terrible and twisted mindset.


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