All-Time South American Team

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:24 pm

We have one for the Europeans so we might as well.

My (working) team: 4-3-3

Carrizo
Cafu - Pasarella - Figueroa - Nilton Santos
Falcao - Monti - Zico
Maradona - Messi - Pele

Amadeo Carrizo: I'm basing this solely on reputation as I have not watched him. He was an integral part the legendary 40s River Plate that produced Di Stefano, and is considered to be one of the most influential GKs of all time. Ubaldo Fillol has almost 3 times more caps than him, but we have to keep in mind that international football was put on hold until 1950 due to WW2.

Cafu: Not many other RBs can give him a run for his money, and they would all be Brazilian...

Pasarella: One of the best CBs of all time, captain of the 1978 WC winning team, awful person and president but great footballer.

Figueroa: While diversity figures into my pick (otherwise it would only be Argies and Brazilians), he was considered a great footballer, Pele and Beckenbauer called him the best in his position, and won the best player in America award three times in spite of being a CB.

Nilton Santos: Considered the greatest LB of all time, didn't have a choice Razz

Falcao & Zico: Member and representative of the legendary 1982 Brazilian team.

Monti: played two world cup finals, and won one of them (albeit with Italy; he still counts), he's largely regarded as Argentina's best #5.

Maradona, Messi & Pele: self explanatory really, only debatable one is Messi instead of Di Stefano I suppose, but it won't be an issue by the time Messi finishes his career.
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Post by Valkyrja Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:43 pm

No Ronaldo ? The man is the all-time WC goalscorer. Messi flopped hard in CA and WC.
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Post by Ganso Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:56 pm

I don't think anyone can really make a lot of changes to that lineup, a lot of established GOAT SA players.

I think I would maybe put Socrates ahead of Falcao
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:40 pm

Kizu wrote:No Ronaldo ? The man is the all-time WC goalscorer. Messi flopped hard in CA and WC.
And Ronaldo never won a CL while Messi already has 3 halfway through his career... this isn't best player to play for the NT, it's best player to come out of the continent. I think Messi is a level above Ronaldo already. I could understand the argument being made for Di Stefano, but I think Ronaldo doesn't make the starters without a formation change.
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Post by Valkyrja Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:16 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
Kizu wrote:No Ronaldo ? The man is the all-time WC goalscorer. Messi flopped hard in CA and WC.
And Ronaldo never won a CL while Messi already has 3 halfway through his career... this isn't best player to play for the NT, it's best player to come out of the continent. I think Messi is a level above Ronaldo already. I could understand the argument being made for Di Stefano, but I think Ronaldo doesn't make the starters without a formation change.

You're argentinian and I understand you... but Ronaldo pre-injury was impossible to stop, Messi can be stopped.
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Post by DuringTheWar Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:20 pm

Id put rivelino instead of falcao, maradona as an AM (take zico out of the team), garrincha on the right, pele at CF instead of messi, and sivori inside left
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Post by Guest Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:35 pm

My team: 4-3-3 / 4-1-2-3 / 4-1-3-2

Carrizo
Andrade - Nasazzi - Santamaria - Roberto Carlos
Zito
Maradona - Di Stefano
Garrincha - Pele - Ronaldo

GK: Carrizo - The River Plate legend who played over 500 games and set a record with 8 games without conceding a single goal, multiple domestic trophies and the ideal model for most South American keepers makes this an easy choice.

RB: Andrade - The Uruguain fullback is one of the best the world will ever see winning the world cup in 1950 in one of the greatest upsets in football history and the SA Champs in '56. No other choice seems right. Considered by many as well to actually be the first real international superstar of football.

CB: Nasazzi - A World Cup winning captain, two time Olympic winner and 4 time SA Championship winner (with two best player awards as well) he was the epitome of a hard hitting well rounded CB.

CB: Santamaria - With over 10 league champions ships to his name and 4 Euro Cups as well as being part of the World Cup all star team of '54, Santamaria rounds out my CB's, regarding by many to be one of the greatest central defenders to play the game he is another player who does not mess around and seems to have an endless fuel tank.

RB: Roberto Carlos - May have not been the best defender on this list but his marauding runs down the left flank and his highly unpredictable free kicks makes this an easy choice for me, playing over 600 games at domestic level and 125 for Brasil while grabbing 6 league wins, 3 champions leagues, 2 Copa Americas, a confeds cup, a world cup in 2002 and making the FIFA World Cup all-star team on two separate occasions makes this my ideal choice.

DM: Zito - The Brazilian no other name seems right to put here, he won more titles at club and international level than people will actually watch in a lifetime, multiple World Cup and Copa winner, the great midfielder is first choice for me.

CM: Alfredo Di Stefano - Not many would of picked him for a midfielder but for those that have not watched him play or listened to the greats that did, he could of been put in any position on this team. He would often play defender to midfielder to creator and yes sometimes even goal scorer, the great Argentine was the essence of a complete player being able to play in literally any position on the field. Winning 13 leagues in his career, 5 Euro Cups and a horde of other trophies and individual honours he gets my nod at CM.

AM: Maradona - World Cup winner, played in 4 world cups and is the highest scoring Argentine in world cup finals, considered to be one of the best dribblers of the ball the world has ever seen and one of the deadliest from a set piece, the man and the legend takes his rightful spot in attacking midfield.

RF: Garrincha - Another two time world cup winner and individual award whore, the best dribbler in football history makes his way to my right forward slot.

CF: Pele - Won the World Cup on 3 separate occasions, leading goal scorer in Brasil history and numerous other domestic titles for Santos and NY, he also has more individual trophies than people have friends, one of the best players to have ever played the game full stop.

LF: Ronaldo - The scond highest goal scorer for Brasil after Pele and the man with two World Cup wins under his belt is the leading goal scorer in World Cup finals history, with 5 international cups to his name and a plethora of domestic cups and individual awards the man that scored over 400 goals and was near high unstoppable when fit is my pick to round up the front 3.

Manager: Herrera, the guy came out with a trophy wherever he went.

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Post by The Franchise Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:26 am

Been waiting for this one, should of done it myself.

I again will go for a 11 of my favourites mixed with the best rather than the out and out best. And it makes sense two because no way I can fit in all the forwards and number 10's.


---------------------------------------Carrizo----------------------------------------

Carlos Alberto-----------Ayala------------Passerella--------------Roberto Carlos

-----------------------------Didi---------------Sócrates--------------------------------


-------------------------------Messi----------Pele--------------------------------------

Garrincha-------------------------Ronaldo------------------------------------------


This sadly turned into a Argentina and Brazil combined team but really it just had to be.

Carrizo has to be there, he is too highly regarded and there arent any real outstanding options to challange his rep.

Cafu and Alberto are a toss up, cant go wrong either way. Ayala has been consistently underrated, but defensively was imperious. Just based on defending, you wont find many better. Passerella...winner and rediculous goalscorer. In his River Plate peak he is a 1 goal every 3 games scorer....amazing. Great ability on the ball, joined attacks fantastically. At leftback, Roberto Carlos was so overrrated he now is underrated. He only ever had trouble defensively with real top level players and while everyone knows about his speed, he was incredibly powerful and was never bullied. Going forward I dont need to explain...how he mpacted the game from his position was something never seen to that extent before him. The best attacking leftback the game has ever seen, bar none.

Didi, one of the very first of his kind. An original deep lying playmaker. However, unlike many of his predecesors he has defensive ability and didnt require defensive schemes and cover to protect the defence. Passing range, composure, skill on the ball and a thunderous strike. Joining him is the mercical Socrates, two footed, incredible awareness and vision and as capable a through passer as you will find. Add in the fact he was 6'4. A little lazy but that sort of adds to his charm.

Further forward, we have Messi who at NT level has evolved his game to be a real number 10. Can dribble multiple markers and has devolped a feel for passing rarely seen from such a naturally individual player. He will come deep and still have various forward options. Has shown he is just devasting in a counter attack style of play. It was going to be down to him and Maradona, no ways about it. They would never fit in the same team, they do much of the same things in the same areas and neither can really play other roles. I went for Messi because he is more my favourite and I am of the opinion that Maradona's NT CV isnt as good as Messi's domestic one. That before the arguement about level of play which I wont bother going into for sake of the thread.

Pele to me, perhaps because he himself talks so much about his goals is getting referred to as something he was not. A striker. He played behind a number 9 both for Brazil and Santos. He dropped deep and did his share of pulling the strings..albeit it in a more direct fashion than other guys (Messi, Cruyff). A player who really excelled in every facet of the game and I mean truelly excelled...almost mastering every aspect of the game. Has to be in. In my team he would be almost a super version of a false 10. He would start in between the lines, but he would be constantly making runs into spaces (ones left from Messi's movement, the lack of a leftwinger, Carlos runs). Unlike many (Maradona, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo...Messi going the same way) as he aged, he still made runs off the ball.

Further forward, Garrincha and Ronaldo. Ronaldo a goalscorer machine, my personal idol and just did things which a combination of skill, speed and power which to this day, has no equal. Nobody has that much of all 3 things...the closest I can think of is Eusabio. Anyway, pre injury, he was one of the best I ever laid eyes on and no way I wasnt going to pick him. Perfect 9, runs off the ball, can dribble around you or straight past , shoots with both feet, finishes near and far post and just had "it". On the right, it was a toss up...Garrincha or Ronaldinho. Ronaldinho is more my favourite for obvious reasons but I went for Garrincha because he still doesnt get the credit he deserves. Best player in brazil history isnt an exaggeration, he has a legit claim. Was the best player in 2 WC's, both featuring Pele and embrassed defenders. Best winger of all time no doubt. For those who want an idea about him, imagine Antonio Valencia but literally on steroids and HGH. He had that low, strong base and had rocket for a foot.

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Post by Harmonica Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:16 am

Carrizo
Djalma Santos - Santamaria - Chumpitaz - Nilton Santos
Maradona - Falcao - Di Stefano
Zico - Messi - Pele


Djalma Santos- Considered one of the best right-backs ever. Two World Cups (58,62) and over 1000 games in senior level.

Chumpitaz - "Captain America", and captain of Peru's, who won the inaugural "Copa America" 1975. Probably most recognized Peruvian player, and one of the best centerbacks of south-america. #35. in the best players of south-america IFFHS-poll.

Others have been mentioned already.
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Post by The Sanchez Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:09 am

Kizu wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:
Kizu wrote:No Ronaldo ? The man is the all-time WC goalscorer. Messi flopped hard in CA and WC.
And Ronaldo never won a CL while Messi already has 3 halfway through his career... this isn't best player to play for the NT, it's best player to come out of the continent. I think Messi is a level above Ronaldo already. I could understand the argument being made for Di Stefano, but I think Ronaldo doesn't make the starters without a formation change.

You're argentinian and I understand you... but Ronaldo pre-injury was impossible to stop, Messi can be stopped.

Maradona's or Ronaldo NT CV isnt as good as Messi's domestic one. Not even debatable... Dani has the best side though adding Ronaldinho Garricha for a bit more of class Smile
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Post by BarcaKizz Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:59 am

The Franchise wrote:

---------------------------------------Carrizo----------------------------------------

Carlos Alberto-----------Ayala------------Passerella--------------Roberto Carlos

-----------------------------Didi---------------Sócrates--------------------------------


-------------------------------Messi----------Pele--------------------------------------

Garrincha-------------------------Ronaldo------------------------------------------


:bow:

+ impact sub Maradona... the best player of all time lol. :bow:
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Post by DuringTheWar Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:51 pm

Messi as a n10? the only times he played there, for his country has been against low key opponents, or at the 2010 wc where he had little success. For barcelona, the only times he moves into 10 position he is just overloading what is already a 3 in midfield. If you want him in the team, it really cant be that position imo, you want someone there that has mastered that position, not a jack of all trades.
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Post by alexjanosik Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:01 pm

The Franchise wrote:Been waiting for this one, should of done it myself.

I again will go for a 11 of my favourites mixed with the best rather than the out and out best. And it makes sense two because no way I can fit in all the forwards and number 10's.


---------------------------------------Carrizo----------------------------------------

Carlos Alberto-----------Ayala------------Passerella--------------Roberto Carlos

-----------------------------Didi---------------Sócrates--------------------------------


-------------------------------Messi----------Pele--------------------------------------

Garrincha-------------------------Ronaldo------------------------------------------


This sadly turned into a Argentina and Brazil combined team but really it just had to be.

Carrizo has to be there, he is too highly regarded and there arent any real outstanding options to challange his rep.

Cafu and Alberto are a toss up, cant go wrong either way. Ayala has been consistently underrated, but defensively was imperious. Just based on defending, you wont find many better. Passerella...winner and rediculous goalscorer. In his River Plate peak he is a 1 goal every 3 games scorer....amazing. Great ability on the ball, joined attacks fantastically. At leftback, Roberto Carlos was so overrrated he now is underrated. He only ever had trouble defensively with real top level players and while everyone knows about his speed, he was incredibly powerful and was never bullied. Going forward I dont need to explain...how he mpacted the game from his position was something never seen to that extent before him. The best attacking leftback the game has ever seen, bar none.

Didi, one of the very first of his kind. An original deep lying playmaker. However, unlike many of his predecesors he has defensive ability and didnt require defensive schemes and cover to protect the defence. Passing range, composure, skill on the ball and a thunderous strike. Joining him is the mercical Socrates, two footed, incredible awareness and vision and as capable a through passer as you will find. Add in the fact he was 6'4. A little lazy but that sort of adds to his charm.

Further forward, we have Messi who at NT level has evolved his game to be a real number 10. Can dribble multiple markers and has devolped a feel for passing rarely seen from such a naturally individual player. He will come deep and still have various forward options. Has shown he is just devasting in a counter attack style of play. It was going to be down to him and Maradona, no ways about it. They would never fit in the same team, they do much of the same things in the same areas and neither can really play other roles. I went for Messi because he is more my favourite and I am of the opinion that Maradona's NT CV isnt as good as Messi's domestic one. That before the arguement about level of play which I wont bother going into for sake of the thread.

Pele to me, perhaps because he himself talks so much about his goals is getting referred to as something he was not. A striker. He played behind a number 9 both for Brazil and Santos. He dropped deep and did his share of pulling the strings..albeit it in a more direct fashion than other guys (Messi, Cruyff). A player who really excelled in every facet of the game and I mean truelly excelled...almost mastering every aspect of the game. Has to be in. In my team he would be almost a super version of a false 10. He would start in between the lines, but he would be constantly making runs into spaces (ones left from Messi's movement, the lack of a leftwinger, Carlos runs). Unlike many (Maradona, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo...Messi going the same way) as he aged, he still made runs off the ball.

Further forward, Garrincha and Ronaldo. Ronaldo a goalscorer machine, my personal idol and just did things which a combination of skill, speed and power which to this day, has no equal. Nobody has that much of all 3 things...the closest I can think of is Eusabio. Anyway, pre injury, he was one of the best I ever laid eyes on and no way I wasnt going to pick him. Perfect 9, runs off the ball, can dribble around you or straight past , shoots with both feet, finishes near and far post and just had "it". On the right, it was a toss up...Garrincha or Ronaldinho. Ronaldinho is more my favourite for obvious reasons but I went for Garrincha because he still doesnt get the credit he deserves. Best player in brazil history isnt an exaggeration, he has a legit claim. Was the best player in 2 WC's, both featuring Pele and embrassed defenders. Best winger of all time no doubt. For those who want an idea about him, imagine Antonio Valencia but literally on steroids and HGH. He had that low, strong base and had rocket for a foot.


A very interesting lineup but a couple of surprises.Really surprised that you dont have Ronnie in there.You rate him as the best you have ever seen and also a personal favorite.Still doesnt make the list.
Another omission that I found surprising is Alves.You rate him almost as highly as I do and I know he is one of your favorite players.So going by your criteria,he should have made the list.
Also a little curious as to what u mean when u say that Messi has shown he is devastating in a counter attack style of play.I believe he can be devastating in a counter attack style of play.He seems almost tailor made for it.But dont think its been proven yet.
We play a possession game.I dont follow NT football(unless major events) but are Argentina playing a counter attack game now?

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Post by alexjanosik Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:07 pm

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Messi as a n10? the only times he played there, for his country has been against low key opponents, or at the 2010 wc where he had little success. For barcelona, the only times he moves into 10 position he is just overloading what is already a 3 in midfield. If you want him in the team, it really cant be that position imo, you want someone there that has mastered that position, not a jack of all trades.

He is a jack of all trades and a master of all.Over the past season and more he has played a lot for us as a 10.Sanchez has played a lot for us in the center and whenever he does that,Messi plays as a 10.
What do you mean by midfield already overloaded with 3?Why the slight?
So if a team plays 3 midfielders and a 10,the 10 is somehow not quite as good.I dont get the logic behind that.

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:10 pm

Argentina change formation and style according to the opponent. But Messi has shown that he can be deadly on the counter for us. This recent match comes to mind:

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Post by DuringTheWar Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:40 pm

alexjanosik wrote:He is a jack of all trades and a master of all.Over the past season and more he has played a lot for us as a 10.Sanchez has played a lot for us in the center and whenever he does that,Messi plays as a 10.
What do you mean by midfield already overloaded with 3?Why the slight?
So if a team plays 3 midfielders and a 10,the 10 is somehow not quite as good.I dont get the logic behind that.

Im just pointing out that, with a 3 in midfield already, the 10 will have more options all the time and more to the point, its much more difficult to defend against him if he has more support. Comparing someone who is actually part of the midield as a 10, with someone who plays as a forward but drops back often to a 10 in support of an already packed midfield, is not right. At the least, you have to recognise the difference. But either way, i dont really think there is much of an argument to say messi is the best 10 in SA history, his passing and tactial awareness of that position is pale in comparison to others
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:52 pm

What about a South American side including no Argentine and Brazilian players?
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Post by The Franchise Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:14 am

Are you seriously trying to say, Messi cannot play the number 10 role in that side I have...seriously? Or is this jut spite because I chose him over Maradona? I hope your not that petty because what your saying makes no sense.

Your arguement is basically Messi has never done anything as a number 10 on a big stage...well Socrates has never actually done anything either on a NT level in his role and failed in it when he left Brazil. Are we going to hold that against him?

Anyway, Messi can play as a 10. What limitations does he have to not be able to play this role...especially for a team with the sort of players it has in front and importantly, behind him?

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Post by The Franchise Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:24 am

alexjanosik wrote:

A very interesting lineup but a couple of surprises.Really surprised that you dont have Ronnie in there.You rate him as the best you have ever seen and also a personal favorite.Still doesnt make the list.
Another omission that I found surprising is Alves.You rate him almost as highly as I do and I know he is one of your favorite players.So going by your criteria,he should have made the list.
Also a little curious as to what u mean when u say that Messi has shown he is devastating in a counter attack style of play.I believe he can be devastating in a counter attack style of play.He seems almost tailor made for it.But dont think its been proven yet.
We play a possession game.I dont follow NT football(unless major events) but are Argentina playing a counter attack game now?

True, very true. In the end...everyone knows Ronaldinho, he played recently (dont consider what he does now playing in that same sense lol) and I already picked Barca or personal favourite based players based on that fact already. And im still torn on who I rate the best of all I ever seen play. I have come to the easier conclusion that there have been say 10 players who at their best, nobody played at a higher level.

Dani Alves, the same. Already enough Barca and fav favourites. For the record, I consider him the best rightback I ever seen. But I like having a little fun with threads like this and trying to shine a light on some of the old guys. I mean, I have said many times I think Dani Alves impacted the game much more than Cafu, even if Cafu is regarded as the better all around player generally speaking.

Messi in a counter attack? Recently for Argentina they have played more directly than in the past, I think the last 4 games I watched it was very direct and he was at the heart of everything on the transitions. I wouldnt say they play counter attacking football, but its a big element to their game which wasnt there before and he has shone in it.
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Post by DuringTheWar Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:52 am

Not really, i just think there are players that showed better performances in that position, and by no means is that restricted to maradona. Zico for example, at a stretch, even riquelme.
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Post by The Franchise Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:52 am

South America with no Argentina or Brazil? Have to dig really deep and use names based on rep more than what I actually know.

Open to suggestion.


-------------------------------------Chilavert----------------------------

-------------------------------------Figueroa---------------------------

--------------Nasazzi---------------Santamaria----------------Chumpitaz

----------------------- Valderrama----Varela---------Romerito------------

-----------------------------------Francescoli--------------------------

-------------------------Salas----------------------Schiaffino------------

1-3-4-1-2?!?!
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Post by Guest Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:30 am

Really liked your team Dani, I'm learning alot with these threads haha

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:45 am

I would take one of Salas or Schiaffino off for Arsenio Erico. He is the best player to ever come out of Paraguay and is the current top scorer in the Argentine league with 293 goals in 332 apparitions for Independiente. He had an impressive aerial game and was very skillful. Here's a clip of Di Stefano calling him "a different player, a player that could do things others couldn't".
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Post by Arquitecto Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:49 am



-Fillol-
Ayala-Passarella-Zanetti

Alves-Rivelino-Zico-Nilton

Messi-Francescoli
-Batistuta-

Manager: Carlos Bianchi

A classic Italian style 3-4-2-1

Backline is obvious as El Gran Capitan playing the quintessential SW role with Ayala and Zanetti in a reserved CB partnership combining their all round ability. Alves is the greatest attacking fullback/RB in the history of South American football with Nilton playing his natural LB role in attack. Rivelino combines with Zico as the former playing deeper while Zico moves up to combine with Messi who has the most freedom in his role. Messi will play the Italian TQ role with Francescoli as the Fantasista of the team, built around Batigol as the Prima Punta.






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All-Time South American Team Empty Re: All-Time South American Team

Post by The Franchise Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:40 pm

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Not really, i just think there are players that showed better performances in that position, and by no means is that restricted to maradona. Zico for example, at a stretch, even riquelme.

Messi has never offically played that position, so by this logic I could put any South American 10 in there instead.

Perhaps in the European team nobody should put Baresi and Beckenbauer in the same team, both were sweepers, so one of them havent shown what they can do in other roles.


Last edited by The Franchise on Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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