All-Time South American Team

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Post by The Franchise Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:40 pm

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Not really, i just think there are players that showed better performances in that position, and by no means is that restricted to maradona. Zico for example, at a stretch, even riquelme.

Messi has never offically played that position, so by this logic I could put any South American 10 in there instead.

Perhaps in the European team nobody should put Baresi and Beckenbauer in the same team, both were sweepers, so one of them havent shown what they can do in other roles.


Last edited by The Franchise on Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by The Franchise Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:41 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I would take one of Salas or Schiaffino off for Arsenio Erico. He is the best player to ever come out of Paraguay and is the current top scorer in the Argentine league with 293 goals in 332 apparitions for Independiente. He had an impressive aerial game and was very skillful. Here's a clip of Di Stefano calling him "a different player, a player that could do things others couldn't".

I am not familar with Erico, this is really difficult. But as I said, open to suggestion.

With a record like that, he surely has a fair claim.
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Post by The Franchise Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:43 pm

Arquitecto wrote:

-Fillol-
Ayala-Passarella-Zanetti

Alves-Rivelino-Zico-Nilton

Messi-Francescoli
-Batistuta-

Manager: Carlos Bianchi

A classic Italian style 3-4-2-1

Backline is obvious as El Gran Capitan playing the quintessential SW role with Ayala and Zanetti in a reserved CB partnership combining their all round ability. Alves is the greatest attacking fullback/RB in the history of South American football with Nilton playing his natural LB role in attack. Rivelino combines with Zico as the former playing deeper while Zico moves up to combine with Messi who has the most freedom in his role. Messi will play the Italian TQ role with Francescoli as the Fantasista of the team, built around Batigol as the Prima Punta.







Love it.

I so wanted to include Rivelino, but wasnt sure how.
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Post by DuringTheWar Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:08 pm

The Franchise wrote:
Messi has never offically played that position, so by this logic I could put any South American 10 in there instead.

Perhaps in the European team nobody should put Baresi and Beckenbauer in the same team, both were sweepers, so one of them havent shown what they can do in other roles.

Its not simply about him officially playing there. What is there about him that would make him theoretically better in that position than the players i mentioned in particular maradona? its not feasible, its like saying a ferrari, very good looking and fast on the ground, can fly better than a plane. He is a great player obviously and he has a fair shout to get in the team but playing him in the 10 position is a little silly if you ask me
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Post by The Franchise Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:18 pm

First of, your car-plane example is utterly insane. You realise what position a false 9 is? Its basically a 10 but with different peices around him. To imply they are very different position is wrong, but to imply they are so different its like comparing a plane to a car.....

What would make him better? If my opinion is he is a better player then that there would make him better.

Messi can play in that position and is the better player (if thats my opinion), therefore he goes in. Its really that simple isnt it?

This isnt a "All time team but they had to win something in the exact roles you put them in".
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Post by Le Samourai Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:22 pm

Overall.

--------------------Fillol-------------------------
Djalma----Figueroa---Santamaria--------Nilton
-----------Socrates-------------Didi------------
---Maradona--------------------------Zico-----
---------------------Messi/Pele----------------
----------Romario---------------------------

Coach - Tele.

Figeoroa complementing Santamaria's brawn style with tranquility , elegance and distribution. Went for balance with the fullbacks as Tele is by no means a defensive architect and that's always going to be the worry.

Maradona gets to be the deeper of the two attacking midfielders , Zico the more incisive and direct. I was considering putting Jarzinhio but I think either of these two could adapt to playing these roles.

I would pick Pele , I think I've overloaded my team with playmakers so in that sense he would get the ball where he's comfortable and from there his direct approach would coalesce better.

Romario because he can have an impact without needing to neccesarily touch the ball that often.
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Post by DuringTheWar Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:27 pm

Messi spends most of his game further up the pitch than a 10, and when he goes back, he does not dictate play like a 10 would. His main role is just making an option for his teammates and bouncing off 1-2 plays or dribbling the ball to safety/opponents final third. That does not make him a great 10, not at all, i have rarely watched a game of his and felt he was masterminding the match.
You might think he is the better player than any 10 that has played in SA history, but quite simply his skillset does not match that of others to play in that position.
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Post by kiranr Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:52 pm

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Messi spends most of his game further up the pitch than a 10, and when he goes back, he does not dictate play like a 10 would. His main role is just making an option for his teammates and bouncing off 1-2 plays or dribbling the ball to safety/opponents final third. That does not make him a great 10, not at all, i have rarely watched a game of his and felt he was masterminding the match.
You might think he is the better player than any 10 that has played in SA history, but quite simply his skillset does not match that of others to play in that position.

As far as my understanding goes, a number 10 is supposed to be the link between the centre midfield and the forward line and create attacking moves. I don't know what you mean by dictating play here because Messi dictates most of the attacking moves for both club and country.

Given my understanding, i think Messi is perfectly suited to play the number 10 role.
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Post by DuringTheWar Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:33 pm

There is a tactical difference in modern times. In diegos day for example, the 10 was usualy the designated playmaker who played in a rigid system, ie for the most part the rest of the midfield consituted making a "concrete block" to allow the flair player to play (obviously there are some exceptions such as brazil 82 whom you could argue were ahead of their time). As such, there was increased responsibilty for the 10 to provide the attacking threat in a wider manner of ways than it is currently, and he had to be better at reading the defence.
From what i see in the modern game, the regista has become far more important than the 10 in dictating attacks and the responbility has been diluted between players rather than relying on one key man, when messi goes to the 10 position, the truth is he is just there to link plays not dictate them. And i honestly dont think he would be able to dictate them to the extent m10 and others did, if he were asked to
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Post by The Franchise Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:51 pm

I aint going to waffle on about minor details, you dont think Messi has control over games but you will never find a player (name any 10 you like) to have more touches and more involvement in games then him. But this is boring, Messi is a 10 in my team, you think he cant do it. End of story I guess. There are enough of these threads already.

Moving on.

Super team Le Sam, I did gasp at the lack of Garrincha but I understand the thought process. I especially liked the consideration you had in more well rounded fullbacks, centerback who specially pair together and most impressive a 9 who doesnt have to touch the ball more than once or twice at a time to be at his most effective.
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Post by juventus101 Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:42 pm

Im just gonna do one that i personally have watched, becausr i dont like rating players based purely on reputation and youtube videos.

--
--Cafu-- --Samuel-- --Lucio-- --Maicon--
--Zanetti-- --Rivaldo--
--Messi-- --Ronaldinho-- --Maradona--
--Ronaldo--

Or you could just as easily drop one of the attacking midfield 3, probably Dinho, put Romario up top and switch to a 4-4-2.
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Post by kiranr Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:32 am

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:There is a tactical difference in modern times. In diegos day for example, the 10 was usualy the designated playmaker who played in a rigid system, ie for the most part the rest of the midfield consituted making a "concrete block" to allow the flair player to play (obviously there are some exceptions such as brazil 82 whom you could argue were ahead of their time). As such, there was increased responsibilty for the 10 to provide the attacking threat in a wider manner of ways than it is currently, and he had to be better at reading the defence.
From what i see in the modern game, the regista has become far more important than the 10 in dictating attacks and the responbility has been diluted between players rather than relying on one key man, when messi goes to the 10 position, the truth is he is just there to link plays not dictate them. And i honestly dont think he would be able to dictate them to the extent m10 and others did, if he were asked to

Can you please list out these wider variety of ways in which a number 10 dictated attacking plays which Messi does not or in your opinion is not able to do.
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Post by DuringTheWar Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:22 pm

If you are the key man for your teams creative play, not 1 of 3 or 4 creative players, its obvious the player needs to be more imaginative and unpredictable to be successful, as the defence can focus mainly on you, and your teammates arent going to help you out much. Watching messi, i think all his plays are all very predictable, if he were playing in an old style system as a n10 (in the modern system there isnt really a n10), i dont really think he would thrive that much. His constant 1-2s and such would not get him very far, as the ball will not be coming back to him very often.
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Post by kiranr Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:12 pm

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:If you are the key man for your teams creative play, not 1 of 3 or 4 creative players, its obvious the player needs to be more imaginative and unpredictable to be successful, as the defence can focus mainly on you, and your teammates arent going to help you out much. Watching messi, i think all his plays are all very predictable, if he were playing in an old style system as a n10 (in the modern system there isnt really a n10), i dont really think he would thrive that much. His constant 1-2s and such would not get him very far, as the ball will not be coming back to him very often.

His game is not just about 1-2s anymore.

His passing is exceptional now. He is able to pick out players making runs from anywhere on the pitch using throughballs, crosses, chips and longballs. He is slowly becoming better at controlling the flow of play in the final third and general distribution due to his excellent passing right now. He is really intelligent and i don't have to tell you about his dribbling.

I feel your view of Messi's game is behind by 2-3 years. He has grown immensely as a player and I, personally, have no doubt he would be just as good at number 10 as any other player is or has been and be just as unpredictable.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:30 pm

From Zonal Marking's review of Argentina's last match:

But this game was really about Lionel Messi, who turned in an outstanding performance in a classic playmaker role. He didn’t just stay between the lines and hope for service, he came towards the ball and received short passes from Mascherano and Gago, drawing the Uruguay midfielders out of position, then beating them with a dribble. He then tried to slip the ball through to Di Maria, Aguero or Higuain, who were all making different kinds of movement and offering plenty of options. This was a good example of Messi being three world-class players combined.
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/10/15/argentina-3-0-uruguay-messi-the-main-man/

He was deployed as a 10 and did his job perfectly putting in his best performance to date. He can obviously play the position.
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Post by DuringTheWar Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:22 am

kiranr wrote:

His game is not just about 1-2s anymore.

His passing is exceptional now. He is able to pick out players making runs from anywhere on the pitch using throughballs, crosses, chips and longballs.
He is slowly becoming better at controlling the flow of play in the final third and general distribution due to his excellent passing right now. He is really intelligent and i don't have to tell you about his dribbling.

I feel your view of Messi's game is behind by 2-3 years. He has grown immensely as a player and I, personally, have no doubt he would be just as good at number 10 as any other player is or has been and be just as unpredictable.

I dont remember many crosses, chips, or longballs? in fact id say for long balls he isnt even in the top 20 players currently. Nearly all his passes are grounded, with some rare exceptions. Its not what i mean anyway, he always has many options to pass the ball to its not difficult, i have never been surprised by a messi pass, you can see what he is going to do before he does it, he lacks the ability or vision to do a pass that dumbfounds you unless you are easily impressed. If he played as a 10 in a team that played functional direct football, where defence focus on him without worrying about others, his passing wont be nearly as effective without the pre planned passing routines. You can say so what? but that is the conditions other 10s played in, and their passing was still most impressive, more than messi. If you add in the awful playing surfaces messing with your accuracy, and with referees that dont act like your mother when someone hits into you, i cant see how messi could play that position as well as others did in much worse cirumstances.
But anyway, he is a great dribbler and goal scorer, im not going to take anything away from that, but he is not the best 10, no way, absolute miles away as far as im concerned
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Post by DuringTheWar Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:28 am

@barrilete

Messi is an excellent all round player, he could do well and be relatively threatening in any forward position, im not doubting that. Hes not the best at it though, by a long shot
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Post by kiranr Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:32 am

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:
I dont remember many crosses, chips, or longballs? in fact id say for long balls he isnt even in the top 20 players currently. Nearly all his passes are grounded, with some rare exceptions. Its not what i mean anyway, he always has many options to pass the ball to its not difficult, i have never been surprised by a messi pass, you can see what he is going to do before he does it, he lacks the ability or vision to do a pass that dumbfounds you unless you are easily impressed. If he played as a 10 in a team that played functional direct football, where defence focus on him without worrying about others, his passing wont be nearly as effective without the pre planned passing routines. You can say so what? but that is the conditions other 10s played in, and their passing was still most impressive, more than messi. If you add in the awful playing surfaces messing with your accuracy, and with referees that dont act like your mother when someone hits into you, i cant see how messi could play that position as well as others did in much worse cirumstances.
But anyway, he is a great dribbler and goal scorer, im not going to take anything away from that, but he is not the best 10, no way, absolute miles away as far as im concerned

Rare exceptions? He can pass anyway when the situation calls for it. I have seen enough passes to know this now. He has played long balls, crosses and chips to play his team mates in on goal. There is nothing preplanned about finding a wide player making a run towards goal when all of the defense have converged on you.

I said in the last post that i felt your view of his game is behind by 2-3 years and i think this post of yours confirms it. Either you are biased against Messi or you have not seen enough of him in the recent past. If you had seen the amount of chances he creates per game by just his passing, i don't know how you can form a view that he is predictable without being biased about it.
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Post by Donuts Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:58 am

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:
I dont remember many crosses, chips, or longballs? in fact id say for long balls he isnt even in the top 20 players currently. Nearly all his passes are grounded, with some rare exceptions. Its not what i mean anyway, he always has many options to pass the ball to its not difficult, i have never been surprised by a messi pass, you can see what he is going to do before he does it, he lacks the ability or vision to do a pass that dumbfounds you unless you are easily impressed. If he played as a 10 in a team that played functional direct football, where defence focus on him without worrying about others, his passing wont be nearly as effective without the pre planned passing routines. You can say so what? but that is the conditions other 10s played in, and their passing was still most impressive, more than messi. If you add in the awful playing surfaces messing with your accuracy, and with referees that dont act like your mother when someone hits into you, i cant see how messi could play that position as well as others did in much worse cirumstances.
But anyway, he is a great dribbler and goal scorer, im not going to take anything away from that, but he is not the best 10, no way, absolute miles away as far as im concerned


Clearly you are biased, I thought all of us knew this but that isn't a bad thing you are just a fan like many of us..
Although saying Messi's passes don't surprise you is no real shock, I hated Materazzi no mater how good some of his tackles were, it didn't shock me nor ever will I will just always hate him and underrate him, no shame in it.
Also 40 years ago the pitches were not bad, you make it sound as if they played in glass or rocks.
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Post by Harmonica Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:34 am

On the counter discussion, couple Messi counters from last game, against Ecuador this year and couple in Barca. He's basically the perfect player for it, can dribble, pass and read the game at highest of speeds.

Spoiler:

In last one he could have obviously passed, but it was 4-0 and he was going for the century goal.
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Post by DuringTheWar Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:37 am

Sory late reply

You cant say im biased when you are barca fans. Im less biased than you


Donuts wrote:Also 40 years ago the pitches were not bad, you make it sound as if they played in glass or rocks.

I said pitches that mess with your accuracy, that doesnt require any glass or rocks, they also made balance more difficult.





Thats two of the biggest clubs in the world, and their pitches were awful, very rare now.

*cheap shot warning* what happened in 2010 in the champions league? barca and messi played poor and got rolled over because mou made the pitch..... dry :facepalm:
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:59 am

He's clearly not biased considering Maradona played for Tottenham Razz

All-Time South American Team - Page 2 Diego-Maradona-of-Tottenh-008
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Post by DuringTheWar Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:18 am

Laughing
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Post by billionmillion Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:28 pm

If you dont include Maradona in all time line-up you will see Diego_Armando_Maradona in front of you

but pitch doesnt matter, if pitch makes attacker bad, it makes defenders bad too. so maradona played against weak defenses. Also Maradona was a diver Very Happy
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Post by Don Carlo Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:21 am

Kizu wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:
Kizu wrote:No Ronaldo ? The man is the all-time WC goalscorer. Messi flopped hard in CA and WC.
And Ronaldo never won a CL while Messi already has 3 halfway through his career... this isn't best player to play for the NT, it's best player to come out of the continent. I think Messi is a level above Ronaldo already. I could understand the argument being made for Di Stefano, but I think Ronaldo doesn't make the starters without a formation change.

You're argentinian and I understand you... but Ronaldo pre-injury was impossible to stop, Messi can be stopped.

Messi is better than Ronaldo ever was, lets get that straight before we go any further.
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Post by Don Carlo Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:39 am

..........................[Cordoba]...............................

Zanetti........Pasarella.......Figueroa......Nilton Santos

..........Redondo.....Di Stefano.....Zico....................

..........Maradona......Messi........Pele.....................
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