Guti tells it like it is...

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Post by Albiceleste Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:56 am

EarlyPrototype wrote:
Nirgal wrote:
buddytaller wrote:
Nirgal wrote:
Yuri Yukuv wrote:
Guiltybystander wrote:
by omarish Today at 9:39 pm

+
----
-
+50 of his shots are from freekicks also, so its abit less.


Well, but still.

It is ridiculous to say that Messi only scores because of his great support.
Madrid generally probably has more shots on target per match than Barcelona, they play a way more direct game, and there is lots of opportunity in the front.


Anyway, I wasn't talking about him being a big game player or not. I was talking about his support.

Yeah, thats why he is all time pichichi. Just saying, messi never faced a stronger team with barca so we cant really say he isnt a big game player when he flops in his nt. its not like ronaldo flops in front of lyon, valenica, vilareal, atletico, tottenham, sevilla or the bunch. He actually scored more on the top 6 of la liga than the rest combined.

The flopping at national team is a complete overstatement. I would say, as an argentine, that it's been a while since I don't see a match of Argentina in which Messi is not our best player.

At the world cup, he was not the best Argentinian in the 1/16 round match against Mexico and the quater-final match against Germany where Argentina was eliminated.

In both cases he as among the best argentine players. He didn't influence the match as much simply because the whole team played like shit and there was no midfield.

The whole team played like shit? I can easily use that excuse of when Ronaldo played against Barca in the 5-0 loss.
There wasn't even a midfield, you deluded fanboy, it was Mascherano vs 5. Germans. Tell me when Ronaldo does something for his NT. Atleast Messi played a key role in getting them to the Copa America final, won the olympics and the U20 world cup.

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Post by Albiceleste Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:56 am

The xcx wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:So true, Cristiana is really a big match flop.
Like Yuri said before, you cannot possibly flop a big game, if your team fails to deliver the necessary needs.
Take the El Clasico for example, we had like 30% ball possession, now how much of that % had CR7 the ball under hes feet?.
When CR7 had the ball, he did everything he could, hell even scored.
Cristiana is all about delivery, like I said and others said before, hes a glorified van nistelrooy with pace

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Post by Albiceleste Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:59 am

EarlyPrototype wrote:
Nirgal wrote:
EarlyPrototype wrote:
Nirgal wrote:
EarlyPrototype wrote:
Nirgal wrote:
EarlyPrototype wrote:The whole team played like shit? I can easily use that excuse of when Ronaldo played against Barca in the 5-0 loss.

It seems to me that a no midfield team would represent a considerable higher challenge than a defensively well designed team. Messi played with nothing behind him, Ronaldo played in a team taylored to his prefered counter attacking style.

Ronaldo played in a team that had 20 percent possesion and was him vs their whole defense every time.

20% possession is irrelevant if your attackers get that much more space when actually attacking.

How is irrelevant? the more your team has the ball the more you can do with it.
Only opportunities or chances Ronaldo got in that game were 40 yards freekicks and they were our best chances in the whole game.


You said earlier that Ronaldo was better in a counter attack system whereas Messi was better against tight defences.

I never said that.

Also it is not about being easier or not. If you have the ball you can do something with it but if you don't have the ball you can't do anything at all. When 10 players other than Ronaldo exception maybe Pepe all played shit and the manager got everything wrong what do you expect from Ronaldo when we were playing the toughest available opponents in the world.

Oh ok, so now when Ronaldo's team gets outclassed its ok for him to flop now?

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Post by Lord Spencer Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:59 am

It is easy to ignore factual posts (my posts) and instead go at the other team's throat.

oh well enjoy your Barca vs. Madrid thread

its funny that your CR vs Messi debate is irrelevant since Podolski is better than both combined Guti tells it like it is... - Page 5 2859867778
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Post by Albiceleste Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:00 am

Guiltybystander wrote:

I haven't seen Messi win a match on his own either, however.

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Post by Albiceleste Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:01 am

EarlyPrototype wrote:I rate Barca's success mostly on Xaviesta. Messi is a phenomenal player too and a bonus too any team.
delusion at its best

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Post by the xcx Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:02 am

Lionel Messi wrote:
Guiltybystander wrote:

I haven't seen Messi win a match on his own either, however.
Meh, CR7 was a casual Arsenal destroyer in MU days.
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Post by Albiceleste Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:04 am

The xcx wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
Guiltybystander wrote:

I haven't seen Messi win a match on his own either, however.
Meh, CR7 was a casual Arsenal destroyer in MU days.
'meh' let me know when cristiana does something of relevance in an important game. Where was he vs Spain? Where was he vs Barca? His saving grace vs Barca was the header, other than that, huge flop.

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Post by the xcx Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:13 am

Lionel Messi wrote:
The xcx wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
Guiltybystander wrote:

I haven't seen Messi win a match on his own either, however.
Meh, CR7 was a casual Arsenal destroyer in MU days.
'meh' let me know when cristiana does something of relevance in an important game. Where was he vs Spain? Where was he vs Barca? His saving grace vs Barca was the header, other than that, huge flop.
*sigh*, Ive said before you cant possibly do anything without the ball, break up the gameplay?, It dosent take 1 man do to a job, more like whole squad and barcelona is great keeping the ball.
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Post by Albiceleste Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:20 am

The xcx wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
The xcx wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
Guiltybystander wrote:

I haven't seen Messi win a match on his own either, however.
Meh, CR7 was a casual Arsenal destroyer in MU days.
'meh' let me know when cristiana does something of relevance in an important game. Where was he vs Spain? Where was he vs Barca? His saving grace vs Barca was the header, other than that, huge flop.
*sigh*, Ive said before you cant possibly do anything without the ball, break up the gameplay?, It dosent take 1 man do to a job, more like whole squad and barcelona is great keeping the ball.
then why do people bring up Messi being a NT flop if he flopped in one game in which there was mascherano vs 5 germans as the midfield...

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Post by Lord Spencer Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:21 am

Apparently Lionel Messi thinks football is an individual sport.

Not only Lionel but a lot of others as well, I am siganlling you out because your Avatar is just so sexy Very Happy

Fact, there 11 players in the field.
Fact, each of these players is important to the team.
Fact, you need all those players to preform in order to win.
Fact, you cannot win games by yourself, you just can't.
Fact, it was not Ineista who won Spain the WC, but Casillas, Puyol, Pique, Xavi, Xabi,...,etc, and Ineista.
Fact, Football is a team sport, and all this "OMG best player in the planet" bullcrap are marketing strategies to attract bandwagoners (I am not accusing anyone here of being one).
Fact, this Forum is Goal Legacy, not CR& vs Messi, not Barca vs Madrid.
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Post by Albiceleste Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:27 am

Lord Spencer wrote:Apparently Lionel Messi thinks football is an individual sport.

Not only Lionel but a lot of others as well, I am siganlling you out because your Avatar is just so sexy Very Happy

Fact, there 11 players in the field.
Fact, each of these players is important to the team.
Fact, you need all those players to preform in order to win.
Fact, you cannot win games by yourself, you just can't.
Fact, it was not Ineista who won Spain the WC, but Casillas, Puyol, Pique, Xavi, Xabi,...,etc, and Ineista.
Fact, Football is a team sport, and all this "OMG best player in the planet" bullcrap are marketing strategies to attract bandwagoners (I am not accusing anyone here of being one).
Fact, this Forum is Goal Legacy, not CR& vs Messi, not Barca vs Madrid.
I agree but we're talking about individual performances

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Post by the xcx Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:33 am

Lionel Messi wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:Apparently Lionel Messi thinks football is an individual sport.

Not only Lionel but a lot of others as well, I am siganlling you out because your Avatar is just so sexy Very Happy

Fact, there 11 players in the field.
Fact, each of these players is important to the team.
Fact, you need all those players to preform in order to win.
Fact, you cannot win games by yourself, you just can't.
Fact, it was not Ineista who won Spain the WC, but Casillas, Puyol, Pique, Xavi, Xabi,...,etc, and Ineista.
Fact, Football is a team sport, and all this "OMG best player in the planet" bullcrap are marketing strategies to attract bandwagoners (I am not accusing anyone here of being one).
Fact, this Forum is Goal Legacy, not CR& vs Messi, not Barca vs Madrid.
I agree but we're talking about individual performances
If we are talking about individual performances then, CR7 bags this one easily.
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Post by harhar11 Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:34 am

Lord Spencer wrote:Apparently Lionel Messi thinks football is an individual sport.

Not only Lionel but a lot of others as well, I am siganlling you out because your Avatar is just so sexy Very Happy

Fact, there 11 players in the field.
Fact, each of these players is important to the team.
Fact, you need all those players to preform in order to win.
Fact, you cannot win games by yourself, you just can't.
Fact, it was not Ineista who won Spain the WC, but Casillas, Puyol, Pique, Xavi, Xabi,...,etc, and Ineista.
Fact, Football is a team sport, and all this "OMG best player in the planet" bullcrap are marketing strategies to attract bandwagoners (I am not accusing anyone here of being one).
Fact, this Forum is Goal Legacy, not CR& vs Messi, not Barca vs Madrid.

funny enough people seems to forget that whenever real madrid wins, its seems ,atleast reading the forum, whenever real madrid wins its because of cristiano ronaldo but when they lose its because of the team..

I agree that how the team plays is a huge influence on how you will play, but you have to criticize the player(cristiano ronaldo this case) too. I mean how many times have cristiano ronaldo f**ked up a play by trying to do everything himself while ignoring his team mates when they are in better position? Whenever I see cristiano ronaldo play against barca for ex, he does that quite a lot..

imo its like a circle, if you play bad and try to do everything by yourself then the team will play worse which makes you play even worse..


Last edited by harhar11 on Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:35 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Albiceleste Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:35 am

The xcx wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:Apparently Lionel Messi thinks football is an individual sport.

Not only Lionel but a lot of others as well, I am siganlling you out because your Avatar is just so sexy Very Happy

Fact, there 11 players in the field.
Fact, each of these players is important to the team.
Fact, you need all those players to preform in order to win.
Fact, you cannot win games by yourself, you just can't.
Fact, it was not Ineista who won Spain the WC, but Casillas, Puyol, Pique, Xavi, Xabi,...,etc, and Ineista.
Fact, Football is a team sport, and all this "OMG best player in the planet" bullcrap are marketing strategies to attract bandwagoners (I am not accusing anyone here of being one).
Fact, this Forum is Goal Legacy, not CR& vs Messi, not Barca vs Madrid.
I agree but we're talking about individual performances
If we are talking about individual performances then, CR7 bags this one easily.
Just like how he got marked out of the game by Essien in the UCL final?

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Post by Lord Spencer Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:37 am

Individual performance off one player against another can only be judged accurately if both players have the same team, or if both players change teams a lot (which will make us judge the impact of the player on other teams). Also, with both players having many years ahead of them, comparisons are not accurate, and labels such as big game flop are ridiculous. Messi is not the only one responsible for Argentina's collective flop, and CR is not the only one responsible for PNT's unexpected 2006.
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Post by Lord Spencer Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:39 am

And someone will shout, ZANETTI and this will never end

aaaaaaaaaaaaah *runs and shoots himself*

RIP
Sad
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Post by Lex Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:43 am

I really wish people would learn how to quote properly, this thread is a labyrinth of multi-quotes that give you a headache if you scroll down too fast
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Post by pdolson Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:44 am

oh come on ronaldo's not a big match flop, ibra is what you call a big match flop.

guti's still right about the level between madrid and barca, just like gago.

hala barca!


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Post by cositomilan Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:50 am

I agree with guti Razz
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Post by Guiltybystander Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:15 am

Lionel Messi wrote:
Guiltybystander wrote:

I haven't seen Messi win a match on his own either, however.

Eh no, I meant, a game where his whole team flopped and he managed to turn the game around on his own.

Big difference.

Kind of what the whole page long discussion was about.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:16 am

Guardiola: 'if it weren't for Messi I would still be coaching in the 2nd division' - food for thought for those that thoink Barca would be anywhere this close to amazing w/o him.
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Post by Albiceleste Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:17 am

Guiltybystander wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
Guiltybystander wrote:

I haven't seen Messi win a match on his own either, however.

Eh no, I meant, a game where his whole team flopped and he managed to turn the game around on his own.

Big difference.

Kind of what the whole page long discussion was about.
Messi was Barca that game.

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Post by Guiltybystander Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:24 am

Lionel Messi wrote:
Guiltybystander wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
Guiltybystander wrote:

I haven't seen Messi win a match on his own either, however.

Eh no, I meant, a game where his whole team flopped and he managed to turn the game around on his own.

Big difference.

Kind of what the whole page long discussion was about.
Messi was Barca that game.

That is not true, imo.

First of all, Arsenal sucked and missed a lot of key players (they would have gotten a beaten regardless)
and I remember Xavi and Alves at least playing really well too, and even Keita and Pedro I believe (can be messing up there a bit). Anyway, of course it was a phenomenal performance by Messi, but it is not as if they would have lost without him and he was the saviour that day.

I think you don't quite get the nuance of the discussion.

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Post by Albiceleste Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:28 am

Guiltybystander wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
Guiltybystander wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
Guiltybystander wrote:

I haven't seen Messi win a match on his own either, however.

Eh no, I meant, a game where his whole team flopped and he managed to turn the game around on his own.

Big difference.

Kind of what the whole page long discussion was about.
Messi was Barca that game.

That is not true, imo.

First of all, Arsenal sucked and missed a lot of key players (they would have gotten a beaten regardless)
and I remember Xavi and Alves at least playing really well too, and even Keita and Pedro I believe (can be messing up there a bit). Anyway, of course it was a phenomenal performance by Messi, but it is not as if they would have lost without him and he was the saviour that day.

I think you don't quite get the nuance of the discussion.

Without Messi I don't believe they would have won that game, no Ibra either, and one goal down.

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Post by M99 Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:09 am

Remember what I posted in the Transfer Speculation Thread.

The resemblance is uncanny.
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