Guti tells it like it is...

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Post by buddytaller Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:06 pm

RedEyesWhiteBeard wrote:if anyone actually has watch ronaldo over the past years, you would know that he is a big game flop. in all the times he has faced the top four in the epl he has flopped bad.

Does that include Arsenal? Because I remember him raping them on a regular basis.

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Post by RobbyV Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:07 pm

IMO he's not a big game flop, he's just a big game flop COMPARED to Messi.

Ronaldo only sometimes shines when the pressure is on.
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Post by Nirgal Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:09 pm

Yuri Yukuv wrote:That means he isnt a big game player, not one of those men in history that creates magic in a moment of desperation a la zidane or kaka.

Ronaldo is often the best player even when his team looses, but he just is unable to influence the game enough. Same with messi. Most probably because ronaldo cant deal with tight markers while messi is a far cry from being able to shine in a counter attacking system.

According to that criteria there are not big game players. Even 86' argentina wasn't dominated when Maradona shined the most. He was simply the player that unevened the field.


Last edited by Nirgal on Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by buddytaller Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:10 pm

Nirgal wrote:
Yuri Yukuv wrote:
Guiltybystander wrote:
by omarish Today at 9:39 pm

+
----
-
+50 of his shots are from freekicks also, so its abit less.


Well, but still.

It is ridiculous to say that Messi only scores because of his great support.
Madrid generally probably has more shots on target per match than Barcelona, they play a way more direct game, and there is lots of opportunity in the front.


Anyway, I wasn't talking about him being a big game player or not. I was talking about his support.

Yeah, thats why he is all time pichichi. Just saying, messi never faced a stronger team with barca so we cant really say he isnt a big game player when he flops in his nt. its not like ronaldo flops in front of lyon, valenica, vilareal, atletico, tottenham, sevilla or the bunch. He actually scored more on the top 6 of la liga than the rest combined.

The flopping at national team is a complete overstatement. I would say, as an argentine, that it's been a while since I don't see a match of Argentina in which Messi is not our best player.

At the world cup, he was not the best Argentinian in the 1/16 round match against Mexico and the quater-final match against Germany where Argentina was eliminated.
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Post by Yuri Yukuv Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:12 pm

Nirgal wrote:
Yuri Yukuv wrote:That means he isnt a big game player, not one of those men in history that creates magic in a moment of desperation a la zidane or kaka.

Ronaldo is often the best player even when his team looses, but he just is unable to influence the game enough. Same with messi. Most probably because ronaldo cant deal with tight markers while messi is a far cry from being able to shine in a counter attacking system.

According to that criteria there are not big game players. Even 86' argentina wasn't dominated when Maradona shined the most. He was simply the player that unevened the field.

By the way, not only Messi has played against tight markers time and time again and has done well (several of those times against Real madrid itself) but using a counter attacking system you actually face less tight marking since the opposite team is usually caught attacking and badly positioned, so what you are saying makes no sense whatsoever.

Maybe because you dont understand, I said ronaldo doesnt deal well with tight markers (especially athletic ones) while messi doesnt shine when he is in a counter attacking system (not against one).

Maradona showed his worth with napoli.
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Post by EarlyPrototype Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:14 pm

[quote="Turok_TTZ"][quote="EarlyPrototype"][quote="Turok_TTZ"][quote="Yuri Yukuv"]
Turok_TTZ wrote:
Yuri Yukuv wrote:
Guiltybystander wrote:
Giggity5313 wrote:
Nirgal wrote:
Giggity5313 wrote: Kaka is the best example of a big game player.

In real madrid? Guti tells it like it is... - Page 3 Zo6s7o Guti tells it like it is... - Page 3 Zo6s7o Guti tells it like it is... - Page 3 Zo6s7o

When he wasnt injured he owned barcelona.

I dont remember this. at all. what match?

Kakas first season and first game vs Barca the one where we lost 1-0 even though I thought we should have won that match.

1 1/2 years ago is 1 1/2 years ago. can he do it currently? nope.if we gonna use the basis from that time benz is shit, ramos @ rb>cb, marcelo needs replacing fast, we do sexy or bust football.

things are very different now. benz is great, ramos cb > rb, Marcelo ftw @ lb, counter attacking football.

see wut i mean?

Lol Yuri was not talking about Kaka of today.
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Post by RealGunner Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:16 pm

buddytaller wrote:
RedEyesWhiteBeard wrote:if anyone actually has watch ronaldo over the past years, you would know that he is a big game flop. in all the times he has faced the top four in the epl he has flopped bad.

Does that include Arsenal? Because I remember him raping them on a regular basis.

the only good match he had against Arsenal was the CL 3-1 win over us at the emirates.
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Post by Nirgal Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:16 pm

Yuri Yukuv wrote:
Nirgal wrote:
Yuri Yukuv wrote:That means he isnt a big game player, not one of those men in history that creates magic in a moment of desperation a la zidane or kaka.

Ronaldo is often the best player even when his team looses, but he just is unable to influence the game enough. Same with messi. Most probably because ronaldo cant deal with tight markers while messi is a far cry from being able to shine in a counter attacking system.

According to that criteria there are not big game players. Even 86' argentina wasn't dominated when Maradona shined the most. He was simply the player that unevened the field.

By the way, not only Messi has played against tight markers time and time again and has done well (several of those times against Real madrid itself) but using a counter attacking system you actually face less tight marking since the opposite team is usually caught attacking and badly positioned, so what you are saying makes no sense whatsoever.

Maybe because you dont understand, I said ronaldo doesnt deal well with tight markers (especially athletic ones) while messi doesnt shine when he is in a counter attacking system (not against one).

Maradona showed his worth with napoli.

I misread that part.

But Maradona played in severely underrated Napoli. And didn't make that team completely dominate serie A either.

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Post by Nirgal Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:18 pm

buddytaller wrote:
Nirgal wrote:
Yuri Yukuv wrote:
Guiltybystander wrote:
by omarish Today at 9:39 pm

+
----
-
+50 of his shots are from freekicks also, so its abit less.


Well, but still.

It is ridiculous to say that Messi only scores because of his great support.
Madrid generally probably has more shots on target per match than Barcelona, they play a way more direct game, and there is lots of opportunity in the front.


Anyway, I wasn't talking about him being a big game player or not. I was talking about his support.

Yeah, thats why he is all time pichichi. Just saying, messi never faced a stronger team with barca so we cant really say he isnt a big game player when he flops in his nt. its not like ronaldo flops in front of lyon, valenica, vilareal, atletico, tottenham, sevilla or the bunch. He actually scored more on the top 6 of la liga than the rest combined.

The flopping at national team is a complete overstatement. I would say, as an argentine, that it's been a while since I don't see a match of Argentina in which Messi is not our best player.

At the world cup, he was not the best Argentinian in the 1/16 round match against Mexico and the quater-final match against Germany where Argentina was eliminated.

In both cases he as among the best argentine players. He didn't influence the match as much simply because the whole team played like shit and there was no midfield.
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Post by Vibe Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:19 pm

Trying to stay relevant I guess...
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Post by FennecFox7 Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:20 pm

Nirgal wrote:
Yuri Yukuv wrote:
Nirgal wrote:
Yuri Yukuv wrote:That means he isnt a big game player, not one of those men in history that creates magic in a moment of desperation a la zidane or kaka.

Ronaldo is often the best player even when his team looses, but he just is unable to influence the game enough. Same with messi. Most probably because ronaldo cant deal with tight markers while messi is a far cry from being able to shine in a counter attacking system.

According to that criteria there are not big game players. Even 86' argentina wasn't dominated when Maradona shined the most. He was simply the player that unevened the field.

By the way, not only Messi has played against tight markers time and time again and has done well (several of those times against Real madrid itself) but using a counter attacking system you actually face less tight marking since the opposite team is usually caught attacking and badly positioned, so what you are saying makes no sense whatsoever.

Maybe because you dont understand, I said ronaldo doesnt deal well with tight markers (especially athletic ones) while messi doesnt shine when he is in a counter attacking system (not against one).

Maradona showed his worth with napoli.

I misread that part.

But Maradona played in severely underrated Napoli. And didn't make that team completely dominate serie A either.


Dude, the italian league was ridiculously hard to play in during that time period. Every game was like a final, there was no way you could dominate. The defenses were amazing.

Maradona had to deal with all that and still dragged napoli to CL and league success.
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Post by EarlyPrototype Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:21 pm

Nirgal wrote:
buddytaller wrote:
Nirgal wrote:
Yuri Yukuv wrote:
Guiltybystander wrote:
by omarish Today at 9:39 pm

+
----
-
+50 of his shots are from freekicks also, so its abit less.


Well, but still.

It is ridiculous to say that Messi only scores because of his great support.
Madrid generally probably has more shots on target per match than Barcelona, they play a way more direct game, and there is lots of opportunity in the front.


Anyway, I wasn't talking about him being a big game player or not. I was talking about his support.

Yeah, thats why he is all time pichichi. Just saying, messi never faced a stronger team with barca so we cant really say he isnt a big game player when he flops in his nt. its not like ronaldo flops in front of lyon, valenica, vilareal, atletico, tottenham, sevilla or the bunch. He actually scored more on the top 6 of la liga than the rest combined.

The flopping at national team is a complete overstatement. I would say, as an argentine, that it's been a while since I don't see a match of Argentina in which Messi is not our best player.

At the world cup, he was not the best Argentinian in the 1/16 round match against Mexico and the quater-final match against Germany where Argentina was eliminated.

In both cases he as among the best argentine players. He didn't influence the match as much simply because the whole team played like shit and there was no midfield.

The whole team played like shit? I can easily use that excuse of when Ronaldo played against Barca in the 5-0 loss.
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Post by buddytaller Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:23 pm

RealGunner wrote:
buddytaller wrote:
RedEyesWhiteBeard wrote:if anyone actually has watch ronaldo over the past years, you would know that he is a big game flop. in all the times he has faced the top four in the epl he has flopped bad.

Does that include Arsenal? Because I remember him raping them on a regular basis.

the only good match he had against Arsenal was the CL 3-1 win over us at the emirates.

That was not true, he and Rooney had field days in many league matches.
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Post by Nirgal Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:24 pm

Giggity5313 wrote:
Dude, the italian league was ridiculously hard to play in during that time period. Every game was like a final, there was no way you could dominate. The defenses were amazing.

Maradona had to deal with all that and still dragged napoli to CL and league success.

A player is measured according to what he does against his contemporaries, the rest is simply especulation.


Last edited by Nirgal on Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:28 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by Nirgal Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:27 pm

EarlyPrototype wrote:The whole team played like shit? I can easily use that excuse of when Ronaldo played against Barca in the 5-0 loss.

It seems to me that a no midfield team would represent a considerable higher challenge than a defensively well designed team. Messi played with nothing behind him, Ronaldo played in a team taylored to his prefered counter attacking style.
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Post by FennecFox7 Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:27 pm

Nirgal wrote:
Giggity5313 wrote:
Dude, the italian league was ridiculously hard to play in during that time period. Every game was like a final, there was no way you could dominate. The defenses were amazing.

Maradona had to deal with all that and still dragged napoli to CL and league success.

A player if meisured accorind to what he does against his contemporaries, the rest is simply especulation.
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Post by Yuri Yukuv Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:28 pm

Nirgal wrote:
Yuri Yukuv wrote:
Nirgal wrote:
Yuri Yukuv wrote:That means he isnt a big game player, not one of those men in history that creates magic in a moment of desperation a la zidane or kaka.

Ronaldo is often the best player even when his team looses, but he just is unable to influence the game enough. Same with messi. Most probably because ronaldo cant deal with tight markers while messi is a far cry from being able to shine in a counter attacking system.

According to that criteria there are not big game players. Even 86' argentina wasn't dominated when Maradona shined the most. He was simply the player that unevened the field.

By the way, not only Messi has played against tight markers time and time again and has done well (several of those times against Real madrid itself) but using a counter attacking system you actually face less tight marking since the opposite team is usually caught attacking and badly positioned, so what you are saying makes no sense whatsoever.

Maybe because you dont understand, I said ronaldo doesnt deal well with tight markers (especially athletic ones) while messi doesnt shine when he is in a counter attacking system (not against one).

Maradona showed his worth with napoli.

I misread that part.

But Maradona played in severely underrated Napoli. And didn't make that team completely dominate serie A either.


Maradona had teams stronger than his and he did great against them, turned the game around. Were talking about big game players, giving that magic when your team is down lets not change the subject to being a season long point machine like ibra.
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Post by Nirgal Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:28 pm

Giggity5313 wrote:
Nirgal wrote:
Giggity5313 wrote:
Dude, the italian league was ridiculously hard to play in during that time period. Every game was like a final, there was no way you could dominate. The defenses were amazing.

Maradona had to deal with all that and still dragged napoli to CL and league success.

A player if meisured accorind to what he does against his contemporaries, the rest is simply especulation.
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Post by Nirgal Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:31 pm

Yuri Yukuv wrote:
Nirgal wrote:
Yuri Yukuv wrote:
Nirgal wrote:
Yuri Yukuv wrote:That means he isnt a big game player, not one of those men in history that creates magic in a moment of desperation a la zidane or kaka.

Ronaldo is often the best player even when his team looses, but he just is unable to influence the game enough. Same with messi. Most probably because ronaldo cant deal with tight markers while messi is a far cry from being able to shine in a counter attacking system.

According to that criteria there are not big game players. Even 86' argentina wasn't dominated when Maradona shined the most. He was simply the player that unevened the field.

By the way, not only Messi has played against tight markers time and time again and has done well (several of those times against Real madrid itself) but using a counter attacking system you actually face less tight marking since the opposite team is usually caught attacking and badly positioned, so what you are saying makes no sense whatsoever.

Maybe because you dont understand, I said ronaldo doesnt deal well with tight markers (especially athletic ones) while messi doesnt shine when he is in a counter attacking system (not against one).

Maradona showed his worth with napoli.

I misread that part.

But Maradona played in severely underrated Napoli. And didn't make that team completely dominate serie A either.


Maradona had teams stronger than his and he did great against them, turned the game around. Were talking about big game players, giving that magic when your team is down lets not change the subject to being a season long point machine like ibra.

The same can applied to Messi at National team level, he made us win several times against teams that if not individually better were at least much better organized and overall better teams.

Last time against brazil for instance.
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Post by EarlyPrototype Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:31 pm

Nirgal wrote:
EarlyPrototype wrote:The whole team played like shit? I can easily use that excuse of when Ronaldo played against Barca in the 5-0 loss.

It seems to me that a no midfield team would represent a considerable higher challenge than a defensively well designed team. Messi played with nothing behind him, Ronaldo played in a team taylored to his prefered counter attacking style.

Ronaldo played in a team that had 20 percent possesion and was him vs their whole defense every time.
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Post by Yuri Yukuv Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:32 pm

Nirgal wrote:
Yuri Yukuv wrote:
Nirgal wrote:
Yuri Yukuv wrote:
Nirgal wrote:
Yuri Yukuv wrote:That means he isnt a big game player, not one of those men in history that creates magic in a moment of desperation a la zidane or kaka.

Ronaldo is often the best player even when his team looses, but he just is unable to influence the game enough. Same with messi. Most probably because ronaldo cant deal with tight markers while messi is a far cry from being able to shine in a counter attacking system.

According to that criteria there are not big game players. Even 86' argentina wasn't dominated when Maradona shined the most. He was simply the player that unevened the field.

By the way, not only Messi has played against tight markers time and time again and has done well (several of those times against Real madrid itself) but using a counter attacking system you actually face less tight marking since the opposite team is usually caught attacking and badly positioned, so what you are saying makes no sense whatsoever.

Maybe because you dont understand, I said ronaldo doesnt deal well with tight markers (especially athletic ones) while messi doesnt shine when he is in a counter attacking system (not against one).

Maradona showed his worth with napoli.

I misread that part.

But Maradona played in severely underrated Napoli. And didn't make that team completely dominate serie A either.


Maradona had teams stronger than his and he did great against them, turned the game around. Were talking about big game players, giving that magic when your team is down lets not change the subject to being a season long point machine like ibra.

The same can applied to Messi at National team level, he made us win several times against teams that if not individually better were at least much better organized and overall better teams.

Last time against brazil for instance.

Yes yes, lets pull out friendlies.
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Post by Guiltybystander Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:33 pm

See, Guti, King of Fashion,

Guti tells it like it is... - Page 3 Dec6gutiridiculous

fears Ronaldo. He sees a challenger to take his title.

Guti tells it like it is... - Page 3 2yodger
Guti tells it like it is... - Page 3 Christianoronaldo_fashion

This is not about football at all.
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Post by Nirgal Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:38 pm

EarlyPrototype wrote:
Nirgal wrote:
EarlyPrototype wrote:The whole team played like shit? I can easily use that excuse of when Ronaldo played against Barca in the 5-0 loss.

It seems to me that a no midfield team would represent a considerable higher challenge than a defensively well designed team. Messi played with nothing behind him, Ronaldo played in a team taylored to his prefered counter attacking style.

Ronaldo played in a team that had 20 percent possesion and was him vs their whole defense every time.

20% possession is irrelevant if your attackers get that much more space when actually attacking.
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Post by Nirgal Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:39 pm

Yuri Yukuv wrote:
Yes yes, lets pull out friendlies.

Your definition of big game players gets stricter by the minute. What's next? does it only count when it's cold raining and a family member has just died?


Last edited by Nirgal on Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Nirgal Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:44 pm

Let's review:

Messi can only be a big game player if plays:

*In his national team
*Against a vastly superior team
*Not only plays better than the rest, but also defines the win
*During a NT tournament and against a big NT at the same time (since a friendly against Brazil doesn't count and the great last copa america he had doesn't count either)
*While his team is being trashed
*Without Midfielders (having those is for pussies)
*Without a NT manager.

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Post by windkick Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:44 pm

Guiltybystander wrote:See, Guti, King of Fashion,

Guti tells it like it is... - Page 3 Dec6gutiridiculous

fears Ronaldo. He sees a challenger to take his title.

Guti tells it like it is... - Page 3 2yodger
Guti tells it like it is... - Page 3 Christianoronaldo_fashion

This is not about football at all.

got to admit, those Ronaldo Gucci shoes are off the chain
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