Guti tells it like it is...

Guiltybystander wrote:See, Guti, King of Fashion,



fears Ronaldo. He sees a challenger to take his title.




This is not about football at all.

got to admit, those Ronaldo Gucci shoes are off the chain

Nirgal wrote:

Nirgal wrote:

Yes yes, lets pull out friendlies.

Your definition of big game players gets stricter by the minute. What's next? does it only count when it's cold raining and a family member has just died?

Did you just quote and attack yourself?

RealGunner wrote:

buddytaller wrote:

RedEyesWhiteBeard wrote:if anyone actually has watch ronaldo over the past years, you would know that he is a big game flop. in all the times he has faced the top four in the epl he has flopped bad.

Does that include Arsenal? Because I remember him raping them on a regular basis.

the only good match he had against Arsenal was the CL 3-1 win over us at the emirates.

ROTFLMFAO

Nirgal wrote:

EarlyPrototype wrote:

Nirgal wrote:

EarlyPrototype wrote:The whole team played like shit? I can easily use that excuse of when Ronaldo played against Barca in the 5-0 loss.

It seems to me that a no midfield team would represent a considerable higher challenge than a defensively well designed team. Messi played with nothing behind him, Ronaldo played in a team taylored to his prefered counter attacking style.

Ronaldo played in a team that had 20 percent possesion and was him vs their whole defense every time.

20% possession is irrelevant if your attackers get that much more space when actually attacking.

How is irrelevant? the more your team has the ball the more you can do with it.
Only opportunities or chances Ronaldo got in that game were 40 yards freekicks and they were our best chances in the whole game.

Guiltybystander wrote:

Nirgal wrote:

Nirgal wrote:

Yes yes, lets pull out friendlies.

Your definition of big game players gets stricter by the minute. What's next? does it only count when it's cold raining and a family member has just died?

Did you just quote and attack yourself?

That's not my quote. It's from Yuri but due to deleting it's at my name.

I should start reviewing my quotes though. Far too much derition for spelling mistakes.

EarlyPrototype wrote:

Nirgal wrote:

EarlyPrototype wrote:

Nirgal wrote:

EarlyPrototype wrote:The whole team played like shit? I can easily use that excuse of when Ronaldo played against Barca in the 5-0 loss.

It seems to me that a no midfield team would represent a considerable higher challenge than a defensively well designed team. Messi played with nothing behind him, Ronaldo played in a team taylored to his prefered counter attacking style.

Ronaldo played in a team that had 20 percent possesion and was him vs their whole defense every time.

20% possession is irrelevant if your attackers get that much more space when actually attacking.

How is irrelevant? the more your team has the ball the more you can do with it.
Only opportunities or chances Ronaldo got in that game were 40 yards freekicks and they were our best chances in the whole game.

Is it harder to have the ball less against a more loose defence or to have the ball more against a much tighter defence?

You said earlier that Ronaldo was better in a counter attack system whereas Messi was better against tight defences.

Guiltybystander wrote:

Nirgal wrote:

Nirgal wrote:

Yes yes, lets pull out friendlies.

Your definition of big game players gets stricter by the minute. What's next? does it only count when it's cold raining and a family member has just died?

Did you just quote and attack yourself?

ROFLMAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol!:

Nirgal wrote:

EarlyPrototype wrote:

Nirgal wrote:

EarlyPrototype wrote:

Nirgal wrote:

EarlyPrototype wrote:The whole team played like shit? I can easily use that excuse of when Ronaldo played against Barca in the 5-0 loss.

It seems to me that a no midfield team would represent a considerable higher challenge than a defensively well designed team. Messi played with nothing behind him, Ronaldo played in a team taylored to his prefered counter attacking style.

Ronaldo played in a team that had 20 percent possesion and was him vs their whole defense every time.

20% possession is irrelevant if your attackers get that much more space when actually attacking.

How is irrelevant? the more your team has the ball the more you can do with it.
Only opportunities or chances Ronaldo got in that game were 40 yards freekicks and they were our best chances in the whole game.

You said earlier that Ronaldo was better in a counter attack system whereas Messi was better against tight defences.

I never said that.

Also it is not about being easier or not. If you have the ball you can do something with it but if you don't have the ball you can't do anything at all. When 10 players other than Ronaldo exception maybe Pepe all played shit and the manager got everything wrong what do you expect from Ronaldo when we were playing the toughest available opponents in the world.

Immaculate_Mole wrote:

Guiltybystander wrote:

Nirgal wrote:

Nirgal wrote:

Yes yes, lets pull out friendlies.

Your definition of big game players gets stricter by the minute. What's next? does it only count when it's cold raining and a family member has just died?

Did you just quote and attack yourself?

ROFLMAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol!:

Except it wasn't like that. It appeared to be like that due to some out of order quote tags.

EarlyPrototype wrote:

Nirgal wrote:

EarlyPrototype wrote:

Nirgal wrote:

EarlyPrototype wrote:

Nirgal wrote:

EarlyPrototype wrote:The whole team played like shit? I can easily use that excuse of when Ronaldo played against Barca in the 5-0 loss.

It seems to me that a no midfield team would represent a considerable higher challenge than a defensively well designed team. Messi played with nothing behind him, Ronaldo played in a team taylored to his prefered counter attacking style.

Ronaldo played in a team that had 20 percent possesion and was him vs their whole defense every time.

20% possession is irrelevant if your attackers get that much more space when actually attacking.

How is irrelevant? the more your team has the ball the more you can do with it.
Only opportunities or chances Ronaldo got in that game were 40 yards freekicks and they were our best chances in the whole game.

You said earlier that Ronaldo was better in a counter attack system whereas Messi was better against tight defences.

I never said that.

Also it is not about being easier or not. If you have the ball you can do something with it but if you don't have the ball you can't do anything at all. When 10 players other than Ronaldo exception maybe Pepe all played shit and the manager got everything wrong what do you expect from Ronaldo when we were playing the toughest available opponents in the world.

Never mind, I thought i was responding Yuri. I'm doing too many things at the same time, trying to respond to rapidly and not able to see mistakes. Just gonna stop posting for now.

Nirgal wrote:Let's review:

Messi can only be a big game player if plays:

*In his national team
*Against a vastly superior team
*Not only plays better than the rest, but also defines the win
*During a NT tournament and against a big NT at the same time (since a friendly against Brazil doesn't count and the great last copa america he had doesn't count either)
*While his team is being trashed
*Without Midfielders (having those is for pussies)
*Without a NT manager.

No its simply if he can turn the tide and win the game against a team stronger than his. Just like zidane or kaka.

And no friendlies dont matter much, you gauchos won against germany 3 months before the WC and then lost 4-0. Portugal lost in the WC against spain and then won 4-0, with ronaldo scoring a terrific goal that was wrongly called offside.

Argentina has to stop treating friendlies as real wins, your the only people who care about them. I remember argentina celebrating like they won the WC when they beat Espana B 4-0.

EarlyPrototype wrote:

Nirgal wrote:

EarlyPrototype wrote:

Nirgal wrote:

EarlyPrototype wrote:

Nirgal wrote:

EarlyPrototype wrote:The whole team played like shit? I can easily use that excuse of when Ronaldo played against Barca in the 5-0 loss.

It seems to me that a no midfield team would represent a considerable higher challenge than a defensively well designed team. Messi played with nothing behind him, Ronaldo played in a team taylored to his prefered counter attacking style.

Ronaldo played in a team that had 20 percent possesion and was him vs their whole defense every time.

20% possession is irrelevant if your attackers get that much more space when actually attacking.

How is irrelevant? the more your team has the ball the more you can do with it.
Only opportunities or chances Ronaldo got in that game were 40 yards freekicks and they were our best chances in the whole game.

You said earlier that Ronaldo was better in a counter attack system whereas Messi was better against tight defences.

I never said that.

Also it is not about being easier or not. If you have the ball you can do something with it but if you don't have the ball you can't do anything at all. When 10 players other than Ronaldo exception maybe Pepe all played shit and the manager got everything wrong what do you expect from Ronaldo when we were playing the toughest available opponents in the world.

I agree with this - it wasn't exactly Ronaldo's fault that we sucked so hard in the first leg of the CL.

I do think however, that Ronaldo works better in a counter attacking system and Messi better against tight defences, which would indeed lead to an advantage for Ronaldo if you are the underdog; he hasn't proven to be the player who turns those rare opportunities when he can run freely, into gold when it really matters however, well he has, but he could do better. That ill fated first CL match would have been the opportunity for a player with the stature of Ronaldo to score when no one expects it and prove he is a big game player.

I haven't seen Messi win a match on his own either, however.

I rate Barca's success mostly on Xaviesta. Messi is a phenomenal player too and a bonus too any team.

buddytaller wrote:

RealGunner wrote:

buddytaller wrote:

RedEyesWhiteBeard wrote:if anyone actually has watch ronaldo over the past years, you would know that he is a big game flop. in all the times he has faced the top four in the epl he has flopped bad.

Does that include Arsenal? Because I remember him raping them on a regular basis.

the only good match he had against Arsenal was the CL 3-1 win over us at the emirates.

That was not true, he and Rooney had field days in many league matches.

ehm no ?

EarlyPrototype wrote:I rate Barca's success mostly on Xaviesta. Messi is a phenomenal player too and a bonus too any team.

IMO, it is mainly the system they build, which will last. They need the right players drilled to fill their parts, but almost all CAN be replaced. Xaviesta is now necessary to keep their game up to the level they play, but I think they would take quite the creative hit if they lose Messi. You need some originality to turn tikki-takka into excitement, imo.

Every team that has succesfully played total football had some sort of creative genius in the front.

Sighhhh

We're back to Messi is only great because of Xaviesta??? And I thought we made so much progress in the last 2 years...

Yuri Yukuv wrote:

Nirgal wrote:Let's review:

Messi can only be a big game player if plays:

*In his national team
*Against a vastly superior team
*Not only plays better than the rest, but also defines the win
*During a NT tournament and against a big NT at the same time (since a friendly against Brazil doesn't count and the great last copa america he had doesn't count either)
*While his team is being trashed
*Without Midfielders (having those is for pussies)
*Without a NT manager.

No its simply if he can turn the tide and win the game against a team stronger than his. Just like zidane or kaka.

And no friendlies dont matter much, you gauchos won against germany 3 months before the WC and then lost 4-0. Portugal lost in the WC against spain and then won 4-0, with ronaldo scoring a terrific goal that was wrongly called offside.

Argentina has to stop treating friendlies as real wins, your the only people who care about them. I remember argentina celebrating like they won the WC when they beat Espana B 4-0.

I said i was not going to post anymore, but i'd like to adress this nonetheless.

I'm not saying that friendlies are important just saying that it was a display of Messi playing well and defining a game against an arguably superior opponent that's all.

And the way Argentina celebrates friendlies: It doesn't mean we actually think they are important, it's just part of the culture to overreact in football in both looses and wins and regardless of the real importance of the match.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Sighhhh

We're back to Messi is only great because of Xaviesta??? And I thought we made so much progress in the last 2 years...

Is that all you take from this conversation?

First, the notion of a big team player is moot. Football is a team game, and the whole team needs to step up. Yes, some players rile the whole team up via their dedication (Gerrard, Gattuso), but the team needs to step as well.

Second, this Madrid is made up of 4 starters who just arrived this year, and 3 who arrived last year. You don't expect them to be in the level of understanding Barca have.

Third, the only way we can realistically compare the two players is by putting them in the same team.

Fourth, Guti is attention starved. Apparently everyone who needs attention can just talk about Barca vs. Madrid and, boom, 7 pages in the forums are written.

Guiltybystander wrote:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Sighhhh

We're back to Messi is only great because of Xaviesta??? And I thought we made so much progress in the last 2 years...

Is that all you take from this conversation?

To be honest I'm posting from my phone and only read the first couple of pages due to the inconvenience of mobile browsing in this website.

I haven't read the entire thread, but

Giggity5313 wrote:CDR final
Tottenham CL quarter final
CL Lyon round of 16
Against ac milan ( wasnt bad)
this is just with madrid also.
I guess I shouldn't post his MU games.

Seriously, with all due respect to messi, he has the best midfield in the world.1/4 of his goals are from quick 1-2s and I doubt xabi alonso or di maria would follow up with ronaldo on those, for example.

His goal saved his performance from being average at best.

goal or no goal he was awful against us. iirc the only good thing he did, apart from the goal, was the espaldinha and a run at the end of the game..

So true, Cristiana is really a big match flop.

Yuri Yukuv wrote:

Just saying, messi never faced a stronger team with barca so we cant really say he isnt a big game player when he flops in his nt.

are you joking? two games Messi flopped in for the NT, in which the entire team flopped, Brazil in the Copa final and in the WC quarter final.
Lol, oh my god so much bias, Messi isn't a big game player because he didn't face a stronger team? Are you kidding? He scored a hat trick against madrid in 2007 ffs.

Come at me with those downreps, early prototype.

izzy26 wrote:

Yuri Yukuv wrote:

honestly being a big game flop is not about how you do against big name clubs, its about how you do when your team is not dominating the game. messi has never been subject to that except with argentina. Kaka is the best example of a big game player.

huh? So when Barcelona were 3-2 down on aggregate? Messi came back and scored 4 frakking goals. frak is up?

Lionel Messi wrote:So true, Cristiana is really a big match flop.

Like Yuri said before, you cannot possibly flop a big game, if your team fails to deliver the necessary needs.
Take the El Clasico for example, we had like 30% ball possession, now how much of that % had CR7 the ball under hes feet?.
When CR7 had the ball, he did everything he could, hell even scored.

EarlyPrototype wrote:

Nirgal wrote:

buddytaller wrote:

Nirgal wrote:

Yuri Yukuv wrote:

Guiltybystander wrote:

by omarish Today at 9:39 pm

+
----
-
+50 of his shots are from freekicks also, so its abit less.

Well, but still.

It is ridiculous to say that Messi only scores because of his great support.
Madrid generally probably has more shots on target per match than Barcelona, they play a way more direct game, and there is lots of opportunity in the front.


Anyway, I wasn't talking about him being a big game player or not. I was talking about his support.

Yeah, thats why he is all time pichichi. Just saying, messi never faced a stronger team with barca so we cant really say he isnt a big game player when he flops in his nt. its not like ronaldo flops in front of lyon, valenica, vilareal, atletico, tottenham, sevilla or the bunch. He actually scored more on the top 6 of la liga than the rest combined.

The flopping at national team is a complete overstatement. I would say, as an argentine, that it's been a while since I don't see a match of Argentina in which Messi is not our best player.

At the world cup, he was not the best Argentinian in the 1/16 round match against Mexico and the quater-final match against Germany where Argentina was eliminated.

In both cases he as among the best argentine players. He didn't influence the match as much simply because the whole team played like shit and there was no midfield.

The whole team played like shit? I can easily use that excuse of when Ronaldo played against Barca in the 5-0 loss.

There wasn't even a midfield, you deluded fanboy, it was Mascherano vs 5. Germans. Tell me when Ronaldo does something for his NT. Atleast Messi played a key role in getting them to the Copa America final, won the olympics and the U20 world cup.