How good is lionel messi?

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Post by MindGames7 Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:58 am

The difference between us is that you both seem to be judging Messi based on the best things he's capable of doing, whereas I judge him on the overall positive influence he has on a match, on average.

Again, I'd like to make the point that I don't dispute that his talent is probably greatest on the planet, and the most incredible things he's capable of doing are things that no other player is capable of. But only when he matures and gets a better understanding of the game, could he become the greatest ever creative forward, because only then would he become the most influential attacking player in the team. Personally I think Thiago Alcantara will beat him to it. The maturity in his game is outstanding for a player of his age.

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Post by billionmillion Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:07 am

MindGames7 wrote:
jiopsi wrote:Messi is a midfield/attacker, he's not supposed to waste energy defending all the time.

Messi is easily the most creative player in Barcelona. You would know that if you watched them play.

I don't agree at all, you count decision making as, keeping the ball, or taking the easy road, there isn't any decision making in it. Almost everyone could do that in some level, and that leads into drawing game. People who take chances and succeeds, are the ones that make the hardest, or the best desicions.

Not only does Messi contribute little defensively, he also isn't very good at it. A lot of the time he gives away fouls or lets players go past him when he challenges them. Saying that it's not his job to defend doesn't defend him from the fact that he doesn't have as much of an influence on the team as the midfielders and the defenders.

Messi is not the most creative player. He takes the most risks and so creates the most goalscoring chances, but that doesn't change the fact that many of the risks don't come off and the team must then win the ball back and wait for a gap in the opponent's defence before they can (should) try again. Xavi in particular is smarter because he knows when it's worth taking the risk, and he knows when to be patient, make the opponents chase the ball around a little more and wait for them to crack. It's why Barca's players are able to play so many games a season without getting injured and seeming as fresh as ever when they get to cup finals and international competitions. They don't have to chase it around so much.

billionmillion wrote:Messi scoring because of xavi and iniesta is wrong and proven wrong many times so bringing it doesnt make a sense. Last season when xavi/iniesta was injured messi still carried the team and made 2 hat-tricks without them. You will say important thing is to start the attack and scoring doesnt matter. Ok when he scored 4 goals against Arsenal it had nothing to do with xaviesta. Or when he defeated madrid in CL semi-final attack started by Afellay and himself. When he beat Madrid in Super-copa all 3 goals came from him, pique and adriano...the attack always goes into dangerous situation with messi.. so saying messi only scores only shows you dont have idea about him, messi is the man who starts most dangerous attacks and yes he also scores, but he can score with everyone sanchez, pique, adriano, keita, afellay whoever plays alongside him he will make a great partnership with him. buy who ever you want he will have great partnership with messi. so this is the ability that others dont have

Many Barca strikers had that midfield behind them, like Eto, Gudyonsen, Henry, ibra and now villa

Messi scores becuase nobody can beat his marker like him - He has the best acceleration in the game
Messi scores because he has the best shooting accuracy and is the most intelligent scorer in front of goal
He scores because he is the most agile player, nobody in the world can work with the ball as fast as him, so he can control the ball and shoot in 1 second
He scores because he is the best dribbler, so even if he doesnt get chance to shoot he can create it for himself and shoot


None of those strikers played in the situation that Messi plays in now.

Messi plays in a team now with up to 4 creative midfield players around him, which allows him to take more chances and not have to worry so much about the other players not being able to win the ball back or keep possession until he gets it.

Those other strikers you listed played at a time when Barca used just 1 or 2 creative midfield players, and 2 other strikers who were all like him. Taking chances, making fouls and giving the ball away.

And you can't use a few individual goals to prove that he's capable of doing that over a whole season, and scoring 80-odd goals or however many he scored. The fact remains that most of his goals are a result of Barcelona's defensive qualities and exceptional retention of possession, combined with the creativity of the players behind him.
Messi had so many creative players that he was playing alongside with tello and cuenca. those 4 creative players never played together. its not spain its barcelona. here messi also supposed to be an attacking midfielder

They didnt play in messi position maybe because they cant?

No i'm not bringing few games, i can bring hundred of examples where attack starts by messi and finish by him. Messi is the attack starter/attack builder not a tap-in master. and he also gives beautiful assists. You just need to watch barcelona goals that were scored in last 4 seasons
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Post by Harmonica Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:08 am

I don't judge him based on the best things, I judge him as overall influence, as yourself say you judge him. Example throughballs are not on average best things he's cabable of doing. It's just that he's best of doing them.

Everyone can do constantly mediocre things during the game, Messi is the best of doing hardest, most rewarding things constantly in almost every game.

whoscored.com base their MoM in solely on all around statistics I think,

last 3 seasons in La Liga MoM:

1. Messi 61
2. Xavi 9
3. Iniesta 5
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Post by MindGames7 Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:15 am

No, most of the time they at had least three of Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas and Thiago playing with the other one coming on off the bench.

They all started over 20 games each.

Cuenca started 11 games and Tello started 3.

Please check your evidence before you make your points.
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Post by MindGames7 Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:22 am

jiopsi wrote:I don't judge him based on the best things, I judge him as overall influence, as yourself say you judge him. Example throughballs are not on average best things he's cabable of doing. It's just that he's best of doing them.

Everyone can do constantly mediocre things during the game, Messi is the best of doing hardest, most rewarding things constantly in almost every game.

whoscored.com base their MoM in solely on all around statistics I think,

last 3 seasons in La Liga MoM:

1. Messi 61
2. Xavi 9
3. Iniesta 5

There's nothing more I can say to convince you so like you said, agree to disagree.
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Post by billionmillion Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:44 am

MindGames7 wrote:No, most of the time they at had least three of Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas and Thiago playing with the other one coming on off the bench.

They all started over 20 games each.

Cuenca started 11 games and Tello started 3.

Please check your evidence before you make your points.
20 games? messi played 50 games. so how did messi manage to play in other 30 games? or did it affect messi when only 2 of the mid's played? or 3 of them played? how did it affect messi's game? messi was scoring when he had only keita and fabregas in midfield. he even scored after keita's pass. so messi is nothing without keita
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Post by harhar11 Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:23 am

jiopsi wrote:
harhar11 wrote:Messi is without a doubt one of ours top 2-3 most creative player but the most? I dont know if a agree with that. Last season, ok I agree, but generally speaking Xavi tends to be our most creative player but last season was one of his worst season and Iniesta was very inconsistent, so Messi was forced to be our most profilic player and our most creative.
IMO relative speaking yes.

Here's four of the more creative, play advancing statistics last 3 seasons in La Liga.

Key passes (resulting in a shot)
1. Xavi 249
2. Messi 224
3. Iniesta 128

Troughballs
1. Messi 116
2. Xavi 76
3. Iniesta 53

Assists (strict rules)
1. Messi 44
2. Xavi 28
3. Iniesta 17

Dribbles
1. Messi 507
2. Iniesta 177
3. Xavi 83

Most of those stat are useless when it comes to arguing who is the most creative player.
As I said Cristiano Ronaldo gets more assist than Iniesta, does that make him more creative? No way! I find key passes to be the most useless stat to have ever been invented. It's just a pass before the shot. It doesnt tell you if shot had a realisticaly chance of going in.

The throughball stat is the only one that I take serious from those, but making throughballs is not the only way to be creative. You can make a pass over the defence who in tern squares it to a forwad to slot it in, something Xavi does ALL the time and something that will go unnoticed in stats..

And also imo, the reason why Messi makes more throughballs is because he plays higher up and his passes generally needs to just get past 1 layer of defenders while, because Xavi plays further down, he has to be able to pass throught atleast 2 layer of defenders.


Last edited by harhar11 on Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Valkyrja Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:25 pm

Xavi's contribution goes unnoticed. He is the man behind the tiki-taka, without him they'd not be able to create as much because they wouldn't have the ball as much.
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Post by harhar11 Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:55 pm

Kizu wrote:Xavi's contribution goes unnoticed. He is the man behind the tiki-taka, without him they'd not be able to create as much because they wouldn't have the ball as much.

Exactly. Messi is the better player, something that Xavi has said countless of times, but Xavi is tiki taka.

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Post by jibers Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:57 pm

harhar11 wrote:
Kizu wrote:Xavi's contribution goes unnoticed. He is the man behind the tiki-taka, without him they'd not be able to create as much because they wouldn't have the ball as much.

Exactly. Messi is the better player, something that Xavi has said countless of times, but Xavi is tiki taka.

titki taka is a media creation. Xavi isn't anythig. ANyone that has watched Barcelona before 89 would know this. It's becoming tedious reading the post of people that started watching football after 2004.

Tiki taka doesn't exist. Xavi isn't the centre of anything. He was given more responsibility by Pep. that is all.
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Post by harhar11 Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:02 pm

jibers wrote:
harhar11 wrote:
Kizu wrote:Xavi's contribution goes unnoticed. He is the man behind the tiki-taka, without him they'd not be able to create as much because they wouldn't have the ball as much.

Exactly. Messi is the better player, something that Xavi has said countless of times, but Xavi is tiki taka.

titki taka is a media creation. Xavi isn't anythig. ANyone that has watched Barcelona before 89 would know this. It's becoming tedious reading the post of people that started watching football after 2004.

Tiki taka doesn't exist. Xavi isn't the centre of anything. He was given more responsibility by Pep. that is all.

It started just as something a spanish commentator used to describe beautiful passing, but now it has been adopted as the name of the style of barca. And Xavi is the fulcrum of that style. So yes it is something now.

And whats the style being invented before 2004 got to do with anything? Most, if not everyone will agree that Xavi is the definition of that style...


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Post by FennecFox7 Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:07 pm

I think he might be the greatest, behind cruyff. Cruyff is still better then him imo
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Post by harhar11 Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:08 pm

I cant say seeing as I never saw Cruyff play..

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Post by jibers Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:11 pm

harhar11 wrote:
jibers wrote:
harhar11 wrote:
Kizu wrote:Xavi's contribution goes unnoticed. He is the man behind the tiki-taka, without him they'd not be able to create as much because they wouldn't have the ball as much.

Exactly. Messi is the better player, something that Xavi has said countless of times, but Xavi is tiki taka.

titki taka is a media creation. Xavi isn't anythig. ANyone that has watched Barcelona before 89 would know this. It's becoming tedious reading the post of people that started watching football after 2004.

Tiki taka doesn't exist. Xavi isn't the centre of anything. He was given more responsibility by Pep. that is all.

It started just as something a spanish commentator used to describe beautiful passing, but now it has been adopted as the name of the style of barca. And Xavi is the fulcrum of that style. So yes it is something now.

And whats the style being invented before 2004 got to do with anything? Most, if not everyone will agree that Xavi is the definition of that style...


Say what yiu want. It was used for Spain in 2004 before Aragones even took over. Xavi is not the definition of anything, belivee what you want. Go and watch Barcelona in 2009 and 2001 and tell me how similar they are . or spain in 2008 and 2010. Its the same media BS wanting to label everything. I have ates that are Catalan and actually go to the stadium on mosot weeks, they even siad that noone in catalonia uses that stupid monika.

Calling Xavi the definintion of a style that has been practiced in a youth sytesm is just stupid. Xavi is great with or without that stylke. jhe is a great footballer. What nonsense.
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Post by FennecFox7 Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:12 pm

Funny enough I don't know how maradona played but my dad recorded a LOT of games from the 70's, especially the ajax and munich ones.

Raw talent wise, they are on par, but cruyff has even better decision making. He did the right thing every single time. As soon as he got the ball he did something with it. He has insane natural dribbling with both feet and excellent vision from what I saw. IMO he is better but messi can surpass him
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Post by harhar11 Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:48 pm

jibers wrote:

Say what yiu want. It was used for Spain in 2004 before Aragones even took over. Xavi is not the definition of anything, belivee what you want. Go and watch Barcelona in 2009 and 2001 and tell me how similar they are . or spain in 2008 and 2010. Its the same media BS wanting to label everything. I have ates that are Catalan and actually go to the stadium on mosot weeks, they even siad that noone in catalonia uses that stupid monika.

Calling Xavi the definintion of a style that has been practiced in a youth sytesm is just stupid. Xavi is great with or without that stylke. jhe is a great footballer. What nonsense.

Why are you making such a big deal over something so small?

When have I ever said that you cant play tiki taka without Xavi or that Xavi cant play in any other system? I only said that he is the player that represent the style the best :brickwall:

I dont care who started calling it tiki taka - infact I have known for years who started calling it that - the fact is that tiki taka has been adopted as the unofficial name of that style. And I call it that because its easier and faster to write tiki taka than possession based football :facepalm:


And if they dont use it in Catalonia then how come in Spanish forum, there are Catalans who uses the term. And btw the Catalan media uses tiki taka as well. Like here for example

And here you have a spanish forum and in the Barca thread they use the word tiki taka in the title, and as you can see the creater is from BCN and most likely a Catalan...

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Post by DuringTheWar Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:46 pm

jiopsi wrote:I didn't mean they are exactly the same. What I meant by faster and sharper, was in qualities like: dribbling, ball manipulation, passing, decision making etc. And Messi has played same role for Argentina, and can play pretty much any role from midfield to attack.

211+95@219 games in top flight football, that's an average of 53+24@55 games in 4 seasons. Even in his lowest form he usually produces a goal scoring situations or assist in buildup play. Never seen consistency like this.

Dribbling? maybe faster, maybe not, i have doubts about that. Sharper in that he takes more touches in small areas, then again diego was better at beating players with 1 or 2 touches. Ball manipulation? thats a broad term, messi is sharper in some apects (such as close control while running at speed), maradona was sharper in other aspects (skills, such as roulettes, chops, cruyff turns, pannas, trapping, back heels, croquetas, ect). Passing? i dont think so, maradona was the best passer i have seen, could generate more swerve, power, and delicacy in his passes than messi does, in just as tight areas as messi and just as speedy. It seemed instinctive for maradona, he made very spontanious passes, for messi carrying the ball is more instictive to him than passing. Decision making? elaborate on how messi makes faster/sharper decisions?
messi played the same role for argentina, yeah, he did, and it wasnt his best position was it? Its partly to do with what i mentioned before, maradona really was a pure 10 because passing was instinctive to him, with messi i dont get the same sense watching him play, it seems more instinctive for him to dribble, less so to pass, despite having excellent passing technique and good vison. For that reason he cannot offer a team what maradona offered, this isnt to discredit him, just commenting on the difference between the two in playing style. You might even think hes better for dribbling more, although i personally prefer the opposite


Last edited by Diego Armando Maradona on Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Harmonica Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:49 pm

harhar11 wrote:Most of those stat are useless when it comes to arguing who is the most creative player.
As I said Cristiano Ronaldo gets more assist than Iniesta, does that make him more creative? No way! I find key passes to be the most useless stat to have ever been invented. It's just a pass before the shot. It doesnt tell you if shot had a realisticaly chance of going in.

The throughball stat is the only one that I take serious from those, but making throughballs is not the only way to be creative. You can make a pass over the defence who in tern squares it to a forwad to slot it in, something Xavi does ALL the time and something that will go unnoticed in stats..

And also imo, the reason why Messi makes more throughballs is because he plays higher up and his passes generally needs to just get past 1 layer of defenders while, because Xavi plays further down, he has to be able to pass throught atleast 2 layer of defenders.
They aren't useless, they just measure that one particular part of the creativity. If Cronaldo has more assists, he has more assists. Creativity is not only about assists as you said.

So lob over defences measure creativity? Yes you're right, but creativity isn't only about lobs over defences, like you make it sound like.

Messi makes constantly throughballs past two ranks of people, more than Xavi does. And some are even for Xavi:

Spoiler:

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Post by billionmillion Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:54 pm

harhar tiki-taka shared between all 11 players not just xavi. even valdes does it he never kicks the ball even under pressure. its the philosophy of the team. With Xavi you will have more balls because he is very safe player never takes much risk he has great first touch and agility. i dont even agree he does many through balls between 3-4 players, not because he can not do but he prefers safe passes. messi and fabregas takes that risk more than xavi. many times i blamed him for not making risky passes. but he is a leader there with him you feel more confident. agree that without him barca would not have such possession. they still would have possession but not as much. they would take the ball and run forward make crazy things and lost it. xavi controls the midfield and he has leadership abilities even more than puyol. this is xavi's strength
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Post by billionmillion Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:10 pm

Xavi doing more through balls than Messi is wrong and there is no fact about that. Xavi does through balls between 3-4 players when he feels it will be safe. But Messi does it without thinking

Saying that messi does it only through 1 player is fail. here are some his through balls

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Post by Harmonica Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:37 pm

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Dribbling? maybe faster, maybe not, i have doubts about that. Sharper in that he takes more touches in small areas, then again diego was better at beating players with 1 or 2 touches. Ball manipulation? thats a broad term, messi is sharper in some apects (such as close control while running at speed), maradona was sharper in other aspects (skills, such as roulettes, chops, cruyff turns, pannas, trapping, back heels, croquetas, ect). Passing? i dont think so, maradona was the best passer i have seen, could generate more swerve, power, and delicacy in his passes than messi does, in just as tight areas as messi and just as speedy. It seemed instinctive for maradona, he made very spontanious passes, for messi carrying the ball is more instictive to him than passing. Decision making? elaborate on how messi makes faster/sharper decisions?
messi played the same role for argentina, yeah, he did, and it wasnt his best position was it? Its partly to do with what i mentioned before, maradona really was a pure 10 because passing was instinctive to him, with messi i dont get the same sense watching him play, it seems more instinctive for him to dribble, less so to pass, despite having excellent passing technique and good vison. For that reason he cannot offer a team what maradona offered, this isnt to discredit him, just commenting on the difference between the two in playing style. You might even think hes better for dribbling more, although i personally prefer the opposite
Messi doesn't really use trickery, because it usually just slows you down. What he does is basic dribbling, ball manipulation in most straight lines, and he does it best that I've ever seen. Here's Messi playing first one two with Iniesta, and from there he makes three touches, control, panna and chip into top corner. That is basic, that is sharp, and that is deadly.

Spoiler:

Here he goes past two flying tackles in great speed with three touches, he dinks it perfectly over the first one, and then he just takes the ball from air and away from defender.

Spoiler:

Show me something similar from Maradona.

Also we just have to disagree in passing, even if it was more instinctive for Maradona. For me Messi is better and faster at it, I've seen him make any which way pass from pretty much anywhere from the field, he makes one twos with multiple people with ease. Never seen Maradona make whole team cutting throughballs etc.

Also as for the Argentina and number 10. Different teams, different times, Messi was almost every game Argentina's best player in number 10. And I don't remember Maradona's WC86 or 90 defence collapsing such way that they did against Germany in WC10.
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Post by billionmillion Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:21 pm

I dont know how maradona turns but messi can turn 2-3 times in a second

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Post by DuringTheWar Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:40 pm

jiopsi wrote:Messi doesn't really use trickery, because it usually just slows you down. What he does is basic dribbling, ball manipulation in most straight lines, and he does it best that I've ever seen.


If tricks get you past players why does it matter if they slow you down? when done perfectly and smartly at the right times they can be just as effective as running in straight lines. Dont confuse maradonas tricks with a cr7 trick show that has no purpose


jiopsi wrote:
Here he goes past two flying tackles in great speed with three touches, he dinks it perfectly over the first one, and then he just takes the ball from air and away from defender.

Spoiler:

Show me something similar from Maradona.

Why? i have no interest in them looking similar. I have already explained how they are different, and maradona certainly doesnt have to emulate messi to be better

jiopsi wrote:
Also we just have to disagree in passing, even if it was more instinctive for Maradona. For me Messi is better at it, I've seen him make any which way pass from pretty much anywhere from the field. Never seen Maradona make whole team cutting throughballs etc.

We dont have to agree to disagree, this isnt subjective after all. I have seen all those passes messi has made, he is impressive, but he doesnt have the cunning passing maradona had. In another thread about xavi, Franchise describe how good xavi is in possession from a stationary position, where you take about 1 or 2 touch to beat the defender or pass, this is where maradonas passing is for sure better than messi's. The one touch passing under pressure with the inside/outside of the boot to spring a teammate clear was taken to an extraordinary level by maradona. All the messi special passes are with the field in front of him, a yard of space to line up a through ball. The throughballs (and 1-2s on the move as well) are where messi is great, but with all respect there is a lot more to passing than just that

jiopsi wrote:
as for the Argentina and number 10. Different teams, different times, Messi was almost every game Argentina's best player in number 10. And I don't remember Maradona's WC86 or 90 defence collapsing such way that they did against Germany in WC10.

Nothing to do with defence, nothing to do with the time, and nothing to with whether he was argentinas best player, messi isnt as comfortble and doesnt play as well as maradona in that role, and i have already explained why
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Post by Harmonica Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:57 pm

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:If tricks get you past players why does it matter if they slow you down? when done perfectly and smartly at the right times they can be just as effective as running in straight lines. Dont confuse maradonas tricks with a cr7 trick show that has no purpose
Because other defenders have more time to react and position. Rather logical. And I didn't confuse anything to CR7.

Why? i have no interest in them looking similar. I have already explained how they are different, and maradona certainly doesnt have to emulate messi to be better
No, and the same works other way around.

We dont have to agree to disagree, this isnt subjective after all. I have seen all those passes messi has made, he is impressive, but he doesnt have the cunning passing maradona had. In another thread about xavi, Franchise describe how good xavi is in possession from a stationary position, where you take about 1 or 2 touch to beat the defender or pass, this is where maradonas passing is for sure better than messi's. The one touch passing under pressure with the inside/outside of the boot to spring a teammate clear was taken to an extraordinary level by maradona. All the messi special passes are with the field in front of him, a yard of space to line up a through ball. The throughballs (and 1-2s on the move as well) are where messi is great, but with all respect there is a lot more to passing than just that
Of course it is subjective, you can't objectively measure different areas of passing and formulate it to an equation of about quality. Messi does inside/outside foot variation with ease. Field in front of him? He does 90 degree passes constantly.

Small areas you say?

Spoiler:

90 degree, outside foot throughball between 4 defenders:

Spoiler:

And as you said I have no interest in "cunning" passes, or other words play, you don't have to emulate every area to be better.

Nothing to do with defence, nothing to do with the time, and nothing to with whether he was argentinas best player, messi isnt as comfortble and doesnt play as well as maradona in that role, and i have already explained why
Yes, nothing has to do with anything. Sigh.
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Post by DuringTheWar Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:47 pm

jiopsi wrote:Because other defenders have more time to react and position. Rather logical.
Thats an extrememly one dimensional view. A trick does not always give the defence time to react. Much depends on the position of the players and their momentum as the trick happens. And on the contrary a trick can sometimes give other defenders less time to react as it comes as a surprise, and is less easy to predict than direct running.

jiopsi wrote:No, and the same works other way around.

Then why did you ask me to post something similar? Laughing

jiopsi wrote:Of course it is subjective, you can't objectively measure different areas of passing and formulate it to an equation of about quality. Messi does inside/outside foot variation with ease. Field in front of him? He does 90 degree passes constantly.

Small areas you say?

Spoiler:

90 degree, outside foot throughball between 4 defenders:

Spoiler:


I really dont know why you keep posting these clips. I havent said messi cant do any of that, honestly you seem to have a distorted view that if messi is good at something he is the best at it. Posting these impressive clips doesnt change that others were better.

jiopsi wrote:Yes, nothing has to do with anything. Sigh.

I did not say it has nothing to do with "anything" Laughing It simply has nothing to do with maradona being more suited to that position in the field, because he gave his teammates better, more intelligent support. Im not talking about anything other than that
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Post by Harmonica Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:06 pm

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Thats an extrememly one dimensional view. A trick does not always give the defence time to react. Much depends on the position of the players and their momentum as the trick happens. And on the contrary a trick can sometimes give other defenders less time to react as it comes as a surprise, and is less easy to predict than direct running.
It's not one dimensional, it's perfect physics. If you slow down, players around you move faster in relation.

jiopsi wrote:Then why did you ask me to post something similar? Laughing
To give something, anything concrete to support your extremely subjective view. Laughing

I really dont know why you keep posting these clips. I havent said messi cant do any of that, honestly you seem to have a distorted view that if messi is good at something he is the best at it. Posting these impressive clips doesnt change that others were better.
And just saying someone is better because of trivial things, doesn't change the fact that Messi is better passer than Maradona was, atleast for me.

I did not say it has nothing to do with "anything" Laughing It simply has nothing to do with maradona being more suited to that position in the field, because he gave his teammates better, more intelligent support. Im not talking about anything other than that
Being more suited doesn't mean being better. More intelligent support? Yeah, lol, that's nice way of bs'ing.
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