How good is lionel messi?

MindGames7 wrote:

jiopsi wrote:Messi is a midfield/attacker, he's not supposed to waste energy defending all the time.

Messi is easily the most creative player in Barcelona. You would know that if you watched them play.

I don't agree at all, you count decision making as, keeping the ball, or taking the easy road, there isn't any decision making in it. Almost everyone could do that in some level, and that leads into drawing game. People who take chances and succeeds, are the ones that make the hardest, or the best desicions.

Not only does Messi contribute little defensively, he also isn't very good at it. A lot of the time he gives away fouls or lets players go past him when he challenges them. Saying that it's not his job to defend doesn't defend him from the fact that he doesn't have as much of an influence on the team as the midfielders and the defenders.

Messi is not the most creative player. He takes the most risks and so creates the most goalscoring chances, but that doesn't change the fact that many of the risks don't come off and the team must then win the ball back and wait for a gap in the opponent's defence before they can (should) try again. Xavi in particular is smarter because he knows when it's worth taking the risk, and he knows when to be patient, make the opponents chase the ball around a little more and wait for them to crack. It's why Barca's players are able to play so many games a season without getting injured and seeming as fresh as ever when they get to cup finals and international competitions. They don't have to chase it around so much.

billionmillion wrote:Messi scoring because of xavi and iniesta is wrong and proven wrong many times so bringing it doesnt make a sense. Last season when xavi/iniesta was injured messi still carried the team and made 2 hat-tricks without them. You will say important thing is to start the attack and scoring doesnt matter. Ok when he scored 4 goals against Arsenal it had nothing to do with xaviesta. Or when he defeated madrid in CL semi-final attack started by Afellay and himself. When he beat Madrid in Super-copa all 3 goals came from him, pique and adriano...the attack always goes into dangerous situation with messi.. so saying messi only scores only shows you dont have idea about him, messi is the man who starts most dangerous attacks and yes he also scores, but he can score with everyone sanchez, pique, adriano, keita, afellay whoever plays alongside him he will make a great partnership with him. buy who ever you want he will have great partnership with messi. so this is the ability that others dont have

Many Barca strikers had that midfield behind them, like Eto, Gudyonsen, Henry, ibra and now villa

Messi scores becuase nobody can beat his marker like him - He has the best acceleration in the game
Messi scores because he has the best shooting accuracy and is the most intelligent scorer in front of goal
He scores because he is the most agile player, nobody in the world can work with the ball as fast as him, so he can control the ball and shoot in 1 second
He scores because he is the best dribbler, so even if he doesnt get chance to shoot he can create it for himself and shoot

None of those strikers played in the situation that Messi plays in now.

Messi plays in a team now with up to 4 creative midfield players around him, which allows him to take more chances and not have to worry so much about the other players not being able to win the ball back or keep possession until he gets it.

Those other strikers you listed played at a time when Barca used just 1 or 2 creative midfield players, and 2 other strikers who were all like him. Taking chances, making fouls and giving the ball away.

And you can't use a few individual goals to prove that he's capable of doing that over a whole season, and scoring 80-odd goals or however many he scored. The fact remains that most of his goals are a result of Barcelona's defensive qualities and exceptional retention of possession, combined with the creativity of the players behind him.

jiopsi wrote:I don't judge him based on the best things, I judge him as overall influence, as yourself say you judge him. Example throughballs are not on average best things he's cabable of doing. It's just that he's best of doing them.

Everyone can do constantly mediocre things during the game, Messi is the best of doing hardest, most rewarding things constantly in almost every game.

whoscored.com base their MoM in solely on all around statistics I think,

last 3 seasons in La Liga MoM:

1. Messi 61
2. Xavi 9
3. Iniesta 5

MindGames7 wrote:No, most of the time they at had least three of Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas and Thiago playing with the other one coming on off the bench.

They all started over 20 games each.

Cuenca started 11 games and Tello started 3.

Please check your evidence before you make your points.

jiopsi wrote:

harhar11 wrote:Messi is without a doubt one of ours top 2-3 most creative player but the most? I dont know if a agree with that. Last season, ok I agree, but generally speaking Xavi tends to be our most creative player but last season was one of his worst season and Iniesta was very inconsistent, so Messi was forced to be our most profilic player and our most creative.

IMO relative speaking yes.

Here's four of the more creative, play advancing statistics last 3 seasons in La Liga.

Key passes (resulting in a shot)
1. Xavi 249
2. Messi 224
3. Iniesta 128

Troughballs
1. Messi 116
2. Xavi 76
3. Iniesta 53

Assists (strict rules)
1. Messi 44
2. Xavi 28
3. Iniesta 17

Dribbles
1. Messi 507
2. Iniesta 177
3. Xavi 83

Kizu wrote:Xavi's contribution goes unnoticed. He is the man behind the tiki-taka, without him they'd not be able to create as much because they wouldn't have the ball as much.

harhar11 wrote:

Kizu wrote:Xavi's contribution goes unnoticed. He is the man behind the tiki-taka, without him they'd not be able to create as much because they wouldn't have the ball as much.

Exactly. Messi is the better player, something that Xavi has said countless of times, but Xavi is tiki taka.

jibers wrote:

harhar11 wrote:

Kizu wrote:Xavi's contribution goes unnoticed. He is the man behind the tiki-taka, without him they'd not be able to create as much because they wouldn't have the ball as much.

Exactly. Messi is the better player, something that Xavi has said countless of times, but Xavi is tiki taka.

titki taka is a media creation. Xavi isn't anythig. ANyone that has watched Barcelona before 89 would know this. It's becoming tedious reading the post of people that started watching football after 2004.

Tiki taka doesn't exist. Xavi isn't the centre of anything. He was given more responsibility by Pep. that is all.

harhar11 wrote:

jibers wrote:

harhar11 wrote:

Kizu wrote:Xavi's contribution goes unnoticed. He is the man behind the tiki-taka, without him they'd not be able to create as much because they wouldn't have the ball as much.

Exactly. Messi is the better player, something that Xavi has said countless of times, but Xavi is tiki taka.

titki taka is a media creation. Xavi isn't anythig. ANyone that has watched Barcelona before 89 would know this. It's becoming tedious reading the post of people that started watching football after 2004.

Tiki taka doesn't exist. Xavi isn't the centre of anything. He was given more responsibility by Pep. that is all.

It started just as something a spanish commentator used to describe beautiful passing, but now it has been adopted as the name of the style of barca. And Xavi is the fulcrum of that style. So yes it is something now.

And whats the style being invented before 2004 got to do with anything? Most, if not everyone will agree that Xavi is the definition of that style...

jibers wrote:

Say what yiu want. It was used for Spain in 2004 before Aragones even took over. Xavi is not the definition of anything, belivee what you want. Go and watch Barcelona in 2009 and 2001 and tell me how similar they are . or spain in 2008 and 2010. Its the same media BS wanting to label everything. I have ates that are Catalan and actually go to the stadium on mosot weeks, they even siad that noone in catalonia uses that stupid monika.

Calling Xavi the definintion of a style that has been practiced in a youth sytesm is just stupid. Xavi is great with or without that stylke. jhe is a great footballer. What nonsense.

jiopsi wrote:I didn't mean they are exactly the same. What I meant by faster and sharper, was in qualities like: dribbling, ball manipulation, passing, decision making etc. And Messi has played same role for Argentina, and can play pretty much any role from midfield to attack.

211+95@219 games in top flight football, that's an average of 53+24@55 games in 4 seasons. Even in his lowest form he usually produces a goal scoring situations or assist in buildup play. Never seen consistency like this.

harhar11 wrote:Most of those stat are useless when it comes to arguing who is the most creative player.
As I said Cristiano Ronaldo gets more assist than Iniesta, does that make him more creative? No way! I find key passes to be the most useless stat to have ever been invented. It's just a pass before the shot. It doesnt tell you if shot had a realisticaly chance of going in.

The throughball stat is the only one that I take serious from those, but making throughballs is not the only way to be creative. You can make a pass over the defence who in tern squares it to a forwad to slot it in, something Xavi does ALL the time and something that will go unnoticed in stats..

And also imo, the reason why Messi makes more throughballs is because he plays higher up and his passes generally needs to just get past 1 layer of defenders while, because Xavi plays further down, he has to be able to pass throught atleast 2 layer of defenders.

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Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Dribbling? maybe faster, maybe not, i have doubts about that. Sharper in that he takes more touches in small areas, then again diego was better at beating players with 1 or 2 touches. Ball manipulation? thats a broad term, messi is sharper in some apects (such as close control while running at speed), maradona was sharper in other aspects (skills, such as roulettes, chops, cruyff turns, pannas, trapping, back heels, croquetas, ect). Passing? i dont think so, maradona was the best passer i have seen, could generate more swerve, power, and delicacy in his passes than messi does, in just as tight areas as messi and just as speedy. It seemed instinctive for maradona, he made very spontanious passes, for messi carrying the ball is more instictive to him than passing. Decision making? elaborate on how messi makes faster/sharper decisions?
messi played the same role for argentina, yeah, he did, and it wasnt his best position was it? Its partly to do with what i mentioned before, maradona really was a pure 10 because passing was instinctive to him, with messi i dont get the same sense watching him play, it seems more instinctive for him to dribble, less so to pass, despite having excellent passing technique and good vison. For that reason he cannot offer a team what maradona offered, this isnt to discredit him, just commenting on the difference between the two in playing style. You might even think hes better for dribbling more, although i personally prefer the opposite

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jiopsi wrote:Messi doesn't really use trickery, because it usually just slows you down. What he does is basic dribbling, ball manipulation in most straight lines, and he does it best that I've ever seen.

jiopsi wrote:
Here he goes past two flying tackles in great speed with three touches, he dinks it perfectly over the first one, and then he just takes the ball from air and away from defender.

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Show me something similar from Maradona.

jiopsi wrote:
Also we just have to disagree in passing, even if it was more instinctive for Maradona. For me Messi is better at it, I've seen him make any which way pass from pretty much anywhere from the field. Never seen Maradona make whole team cutting throughballs etc.

jiopsi wrote:
as for the Argentina and number 10. Different teams, different times, Messi was almost every game Argentina's best player in number 10. And I don't remember Maradona's WC86 or 90 defence collapsing such way that they did against Germany in WC10.

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:If tricks get you past players why does it matter if they slow you down? when done perfectly and smartly at the right times they can be just as effective as running in straight lines. Dont confuse maradonas tricks with a cr7 trick show that has no purpose

Why? i have no interest in them looking similar. I have already explained how they are different, and maradona certainly doesnt have to emulate messi to be better

We dont have to agree to disagree, this isnt subjective after all. I have seen all those passes messi has made, he is impressive, but he doesnt have the cunning passing maradona had. In another thread about xavi, Franchise describe how good xavi is in possession from a stationary position, where you take about 1 or 2 touch to beat the defender or pass, this is where maradonas passing is for sure better than messi's. The one touch passing under pressure with the inside/outside of the boot to spring a teammate clear was taken to an extraordinary level by maradona. All the messi special passes are with the field in front of him, a yard of space to line up a through ball. The throughballs (and 1-2s on the move as well) are where messi is great, but with all respect there is a lot more to passing than just that

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Nothing to do with defence, nothing to do with the time, and nothing to with whether he was argentinas best player, messi isnt as comfortble and doesnt play as well as maradona in that role, and i have already explained why

jiopsi wrote:Because other defenders have more time to react and position. Rather logical.

jiopsi wrote:No, and the same works other way around.

jiopsi wrote:Of course it is subjective, you can't objectively measure different areas of passing and formulate it to an equation of about quality. Messi does inside/outside foot variation with ease. Field in front of him? He does 90 degree passes constantly.

Small areas you say?

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90 degree, outside foot throughball between 4 defenders:

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jiopsi wrote:Yes, nothing has to do with anything. Sigh.

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Thats an extrememly one dimensional view. A trick does not always give the defence time to react. Much depends on the position of the players and their momentum as the trick happens. And on the contrary a trick can sometimes give other defenders less time to react as it comes as a surprise, and is less easy to predict than direct running.

jiopsi wrote:Then why did you ask me to post something similar?

I really dont know why you keep posting these clips. I havent said messi cant do any of that, honestly you seem to have a distorted view that if messi is good at something he is the best at it. Posting these impressive clips doesnt change that others were better.

I did not say it has nothing to do with "anything" It simply has nothing to do with maradona being more suited to that position in the field, because he gave his teammates better, more intelligent support. Im not talking about anything other than that