How good is lionel messi?

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Post by Harmonica Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:05 pm

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:World cups account for about about 1% of his career if that, one of which he was young and out of form as well as being kicked out by defenders, one where he had multiple fitness problems, and one where he was banned before the important games. He played the tournament of his career in 86, but still, there is a vast array of things he did at clubs and other games that he didnt do in world cups. As you ask, i've followed closely, from youngster to veteran, i have at home old games from his career that arent even on youtube i dont think.
Yeah, like you I've followed him closely, so there's that.

jiopsi wrote:That just isnt true. Those videos contain some passes that messi hasnt even got close to.... show me messi laying off a long ball first time with his chest to assist teammates, show me messi passing with his knee, show me a back healed through ball by messi, a flying outside of boot one touch kick at high speed, bicycle passes, crossing the ball perfectly by wrapping his left foot behind his right leg, perfect through ball along the ground with the same technique, ect this could go on and on. What this dont show is the regularity, he could do this type of thing over and over again game in game out, stuff that messi cant even do once....

and how can they give you the impression messi is better? all they are is just a drop in an ocean, if you think messi can do better than those passes then i just need to show you a different kind of passing. What is messi supposedly better at? through balls? 1-2s? anything else?
For me it is. Stuff like passing with knee, or other body parts, is just trivial stuff. Messi has assisted with his head, chest and what ever. It's not impressive at all. Like I said, using tricks is usually just less effective and corny way of doing things, atleast when you are as good as Messi doing things in the same situations.

For me from videos you posted, Messi's more prominent passes seems more difficult, better aimed, more controlled and better weighted in average.

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Post by DuringTheWar Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:06 pm

Trivial:

1. of very little importance or value - the variety of passes i listed were all very effective in building up play, retaining the ball, and setting up chances from almost nothing, and thus were important and valuable
2. common place and ordinary - skill and technique so close to perfection that has rarely, if ever, been seen before or after to the present time. Clearly not commonplace and ordinary.

Using such derogatory words such as trivial and corny, to put down such serene brilliance, shows you are incapable of having a fair view when messi is involved. It would be akin to me saying messis passes are boring and predictable.
And messi doesnt do more effective things in the situations displayed in those videos.

Anyway, seeing as nobody else replied to my question i presume they all thought messi doesnt pass as well Thumbs up

"Messi has assisted with his head, chest and what ever"

no doubt, if you were to post some gifs, they would pale in comparison
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Post by FennecFox7 Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:19 am

Wait so when maradona does it its trivial, when messi does it its not? Enlighten me on the double standards please.
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Post by Harmonica Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:05 am

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Trivial:

1. of very little importance or value - the variety of passes i listed were all very effective in building up play, retaining the ball, and setting up chances from almost nothing, and thus were important and valuable
I didn't mean the end result, I meant the style of doing it was trivial. There is no value of doing pass with your knee, if you can do it better with your foot.

2. common place and ordinary - skill and technique so close to perfection that has rarely, if ever, been seen before or after to the present time. Clearly not commonplace and ordinary.
Same as above, and Messi's prominent passes for me appear to be better controlled and weighted on average.

Using such derogatory words such as trivial and corny, to put down such serene brilliance, shows you are incapable of having a fair view when messi is involved. It would be akin to me saying messis passes are boring and predictable.
And messi doesnt do more effective things in the situations displayed in those videos.
You have gone personal in almost every message with me, there clearly is no good debate to be had here.

Anyway, seeing as nobody else replied to my question i presume they all thought messi doesnt pass as well Thumbs up
Yeah, good luck with that.
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Post by Harmonica Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:47 pm

Btw.

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:show me a back healed through ball by messi... stuff that messi cant even do once....
Does first doing 12 pass, then dribbling two players, then laying it between defenders legs count?

Spoiler:

Like I said, the style is just trivial, its everything else what makes it impressive.
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Post by DuringTheWar Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:03 pm

jiopsi wrote: I didn't mean the end result, I meant the style of doing it was trivial. There is no value of doing pass with your knee, if you can do it better with your foot..

I just cant tell if you are doing this intentionally or not. Most of the passes i listed were out of nearly nothing, situations where every door seemed closed, and he performed a skill that unclocked the door, where there is simply no ordinary pass that could do likewise. That is called talent, talent that messi doesnt have, messi has different talents, but he cant do the stuff maradona did, and more importantly regarding your argument, he cant do the stuff maradona did in different ways. This is the difference between us, when messi does something maradona couldnt do as well, i dont want to look for excuses, when maradona could do something messi cant, its excuse central

jiopsi wrote:You have gone personal in almost every message with me, there clearly is no good debate to be had here..

the guy 25% away from a ban accuses the guy with a perfect record of being personel? hmm what is that? irony? or hypocrisy? or both? i think its both
You do talk some nonsense at times and generally annoy people quite often, if there is no good discussion to be had then that is why Thumbs up . As soon as this started i suspected what with your track record this would turn into a petty pointless argument, but going as far as to brand much of diegos playing style as trivial went even further than i thought it would


jiopsi wrote: Yeah, good luck with that.
good luck with what? general consensus of football folk whom i know all rank maradona as one of the best passers ever, currently messi isnt even in the lists generally. So good luck to you....
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Post by DuringTheWar Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:13 pm

jiopsi wrote:
Does first doing 12 pass, then dribbling two players, then laying it between defenders legs count?

Spoiler:

Like I said, the style is just trivial, its everything else what makes it impressive.

wow, i didnt even need a crystal ball

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:
no doubt, if you were to post some gifs, they would pale in comparison


I guess, there is always going to be some rare occassions. Like cr7 doing a rabona
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Post by Harmonica Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:42 pm

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:I just cant tell if you are doing this intentionally or not. Most of the passes i listed were out of nearly nothing, situations where every door seemed closed, and he performed a skill that unclocked the door, where there is simply no ordinary pass that could do likewise. That is called talent, talent that messi doesnt have, messi has different talents, but he cant do the stuff maradona did, and more importantly regarding your argument, he cant do the stuff maradona did in different ways. This is the difference between us, when messi does something maradona couldnt do as well, i dont want to look for excuses, when maradona could do something messi cant, its excuse central
I just don't agree with that, the talent isn't in using you body parts, or what ever tricks, rather than finding players in every possible situations, with best possible pass, which gives the easiest opportunity to the attacker to control it. And that for me Messi just seems better at that. No knee or rabona pass will change that.

the guy 25% away from a ban accuses the guy with a perfect record of being personel? hmm what is that? irony? or hypocrisy? or both? i think its both
You do talk some nonsense at times and generally annoy people quite often, if there is no good discussion to be had then that is why Thumbs up . As soon as this started i suspected what with your track record this would turn into a petty pointless argument, but going as far as to brand much of diegos playing style as trivial went even further than i thought it would
Again with the personal stuff, doesn't belong in clean debate section I don't think.

good luck with what? general consensus of football folk whom i know all rank maradona as one of the best passers ever, currently messi isnt even in the lists generally. So good luck to you....
You will have hard time to convince me that general consensus is that. And also using general consensus argument in a debate is just pointless.

Can I ask how old you are?
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Post by Harmonica Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:45 pm

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:
jiopsi wrote:
Does first doing 12 pass, then dribbling two players, then laying it between defenders legs count?

Spoiler:

Like I said, the style is just trivial, its everything else what makes it impressive.

wow, i didnt even need a crystal ball

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:
no doubt, if you were to post some gifs, they would pale in comparison


I guess, there is always going to be some rare occassions. Like cr7 doing a rabona
Like I said, I don't find tricks impressive. Had to show that to you, as you find them so amazing and defining.
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Post by DuringTheWar Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:29 am

jiopsi wrote:rather than finding players in every possible situations, with best possible pass, which gives the easiest opportunity to the attacker to control it. And that for me Messi just seems better at that. No knee or rabona pass will change that..


for goodness sake that is exactly why maradona is better, exactly what i am arguing. Finding the best possible pass in situations, where messi cant, with his wider range of skills. If it requires his chest, he can do it, if it requires wrapping one foot round the other he can do it, if it requires his knee he can do it, in step, outside, back heel with the underside of the boot with studs (yep, seen him do that as well), ect ect. He could do it all frequently, in nearly any difficulty.

jiopsi wrote:Again with the personal stuff, doesn't belong in clean debate section I don't think.

Nothing i've written would would get above 1/10 on a scale of personal insults. I get the sense you are trying to incite something....

jiopsi wrote:You will have hard time to convince me that general consensus is that. And also using general consensus argument in a debate is just pointless.

Can I ask how old you are?

I said the general consensus of people i know in response to your insinuation. It wasnt intended as an argument
I dont know why you ask that, i'd rather keep as much internet anonymity as i can.

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Post by Harmonica Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:38 am

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:for goodness sake that is exactly why maradona is better, exactly what i am arguing. Finding the best possible pass in situations, where messi cant, with his wider range of skills. If it requires his chest, he can do it, if it requires wrapping one foot round the other he can do it, if it requires his knee he can do it, in step, outside, back heel with the underside of the boot with studs (yep, seen him do that as well), ect ect. He could do it all frequently, in nearly any difficulty.
That's exactly why Messi is better at passing. More than time I can see Maradona lay bouncing ball, when you can lay it with perfect weight, on the ground in front of an attacker. Messi can strike ball at ground with perfect weight almost any part of the pitch, he has the vision and technique to it. Maradona couldn't. And Messi is is just as capable of dissolving though situations and making a pass, as Maradona was.

Nothing i've written would would get above 1/10 on a scale of personal insults. I get the sense you are trying to incite something....
I didn't say insult, rather than the personal remarks, doesn't belong in the debate.

I said the general consensus of people i know in response to your insinuation. It wasnt intended as an argument
I dont know why you ask that, i'd rather keep as much internet anonymity as i can.
Anyone can say my friends think this and that. Doesn't mean anything.
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Post by Harmonica Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:55 am

Any which way, in every freaking game

How good is lionel messi? - Page 4 Di-XTEW

How good is lionel messi? - Page 4 Di-DYK7
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Post by vivabarca38 Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:56 am

This thread should be in the right-back section.
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Post by Harmonica Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:10 pm

vivabarca38 wrote:This thread should be in the right-back section.
Why?
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Post by Don Carlo Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:25 pm

Messi is the best today & a top 10 all time player, he might end up the best ever when all is said & done but right now Pele, Cruyff & Maradona are the top 3 in any order & Messi doesn`t rank over those guys right now, only time will tell if he ever will.
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Post by jibers Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:28 pm

Jiopsi I agree with many things, but Messi's passing is nowhere near Maradonas level. Messi pass are always the same, run and make some diagonal ball. Maradona could literaally make a pass out of nothing. Maradona is easily the most creative passer I have seen in my life, even better than Xai in that aspect. Maradona was just ridiculous.

Messi is great but he is not on Diego's level, there is no shame in that. Diego was far more creative and attampted shots and passes Messi has yet to even dare. Literally that man was a joke. Only Pele for me comes close.
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Post by Harmonica Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:02 pm

Jibers, Maradona wasn't more creative passer. Also Messi is more creative passer than Xavi is. Messi can find a pass from pretty much any situation, anywhere of the field, with one touch, two touch, or after protecting the ball.

What makes Messi better passer though, is the consistency together with the quality of the passing, the precision and the weight.

I can take examples pretty much from every game, last two games:

Spoiler:

Look how fast Messi releases the ball after spotting Sanchez's run.
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Post by DuringTheWar Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:07 pm

jibers wrote:Jiopsi I agree with many things, but Messi's passing is nowhere near Maradonas level. Messi pass are always the same, run and make some diagonal ball.

I agree jibers. There is a couple of things i want to say about those diagonal passes of messi's, firstly theres always two parts to a through ball, the player making the pass, and the player making the run, barcelona in the last years have had great runners off the ball, they are a great attacking team, they circulate the ball around the pitch until a space opens and one of their full backs or forwards takes advantage, then messi or xavi or iniesta play a relatively simple pass through to them. In this way messi has more frequent opportunities to play throughballs than most others.
Next point, it needs to be considered when comparing the weight, consistency and accuracy of grounded throughballs between a player playing now, and a player of 30-20 years ago, that pitch sanitization has presented the modern player with quite a big advantage. To play a perfectly weighted throughball along the ground on an uneven bobbly pitch is not the same proposition as playing one on a smooth even pitch.
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Post by jibers Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:34 pm

jiopsi wrote:Jibers, Maradona wasn't more creative passer. Also Messi is more creative passer than Xavi is. Messi can find a pass from pretty much any situation, anywhere of the field, with one touch, two touch, or after protecting the ball.

What makes Messi better passer though, is the consistency together with the quality of the passing, the precision and the weight.

I can take examples pretty much from every game, last two games:

Spoiler:

Look how fast Messi releases the ball after spotting Sanchez's run.

My point exactly. Same kind of pass, running IF or FB into a diagonal ball over the top or aon the ground. Messi is nowhere near as creative as Xavi... Laughing nowhere near. It's a wroked move by Barcelona that Messi dfoes all the time. The game vs leverkusen last yuear was the perfect example tbh.

Maradona passed from all ranges ajnd from stupid angles and whenhe was cornederd he would do kick nups and make passes to running players. That is a type of creativity Messi just doesn have. DIego was the best fantastista of all time for me.
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Post by Harmonica Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:50 pm

jibers wrote:
jiopsi wrote:Jibers, Maradona wasn't more creative passer. Also Messi is more creative passer than Xavi is. Messi can find a pass from pretty much any situation, anywhere of the field, with one touch, two touch, or after protecting the ball.

What makes Messi better passer though, is the consistency together with the quality of the passing, the precision and the weight.

I can take examples pretty much from every game, last two games:

Spoiler:

Look how fast Messi releases the ball after spotting Sanchez's run.

My point exactly. Same kind of pass, running IF or FB into a diagonal ball over the top or aon the ground. Messi is nowhere near as creative as Xavi... Laughing nowhere near. It's a wroked move by Barcelona that Messi dfoes all the time. The game vs leverkusen last yuear was the perfect example tbh.

Maradona passed from all ranges ajnd from stupid angles and whenhe was cornederd he would do kick nups and make passes to running players. That is a type of creativity Messi just doesn have. DIego was the best fantastista of all time for me.
How wrong can one be. Laughing Messi had almost double the throughballs and more assists last season than Xavi and Iniesta put together, and that even without playing mainly in the midfield looking for those. They do it because it works, and Messi can usually make the pass, watch Argentina for more variety. Tell me, what kind of pass you want to see from Messi?

Doesn't have? Again, Messi can make a pass from pretty much anywhere, the fact that he doesn't showboat like Maradona did, doesn't make him any less creative.
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Post by Harmonica Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:10 pm

World Cup (no goals, involved = 2nd,3rd,4th passer etc.)

Maradona 19 games, assists 8, involved 3 = 0.61 goals created / game
Messi 8 games, assists 5, involved 5 = 1.25 goals created / game

Copa America

Maradona 12 games, assists 1, involved 4 = 0.42 goals created / game
Messi 10 games, assists 6, involved 3 = 0.90 goals created / game

Messi's figures are more than double Maradona's.
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Post by DuringTheWar Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:15 am

messi has 2 assists in the world cup

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/world-cup/stats/completeLeaders?league=fifa.world&year=2006&type=assists&cc=5739&ver=global

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/world-cup/stats/completeLeaders?league=fifa.world&year=2010&type=assists&cc=5739&ver=global


:XAVI:

Im guessing the other stats are probably BS as well Laughing
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Post by Harmonica Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:25 am

My stats are counted by FIFA 1990 rules, as they portray better players involvement on goals: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assist_(football)
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Post by DuringTheWar Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:32 am

Im presuming these include his shots that rebounded off the post and gk to be tapped in by his teammates, and an own goal by a korean. I really hope you arent using this stuff to imply his passing is more creative, but obviously you are. Oh well, i questioned the stats and now everyone can see for themselves the truth behind them
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Post by Harmonica Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:14 am

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Im presuming these include his shots that rebounded off the post and gk to be tapped in by his teammates, and an own goal by a korean. I really hope you arent using this stuff to imply his passing is more creative, but obviously you are. Oh well, i questioned the stats and now everyone can see for themselves the truth behind them
Well you can see the rules from previous link, so yes. Again assuming things, not creative passing, but being creative in general.
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Post by billionmillion Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:39 am

Pls stop bringing Barcelona's style of play to downplay messi's skills. Messi is passing machine for Argentina



nobody even can make some of his through balls. example his assist to di maria against portugal
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