How good is lionel messi?

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Post by Harmonica Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:06 am

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Thats an extrememly one dimensional view. A trick does not always give the defence time to react. Much depends on the position of the players and their momentum as the trick happens. And on the contrary a trick can sometimes give other defenders less time to react as it comes as a surprise, and is less easy to predict than direct running.
It's not one dimensional, it's perfect physics. If you slow down, players around you move faster in relation.

jiopsi wrote:Then why did you ask me to post something similar? Laughing
To give something, anything concrete to support your extremely subjective view. Laughing

I really dont know why you keep posting these clips. I havent said messi cant do any of that, honestly you seem to have a distorted view that if messi is good at something he is the best at it. Posting these impressive clips doesnt change that others were better.
And just saying someone is better because of trivial things, doesn't change the fact that Messi is better passer than Maradona was, atleast for me.

I did not say it has nothing to do with "anything" Laughing It simply has nothing to do with maradona being more suited to that position in the field, because he gave his teammates better, more intelligent support. Im not talking about anything other than that
Being more suited doesn't mean being better. More intelligent support? Yeah, lol, that's nice way of bs'ing.

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Post by harhar11 Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:11 am

billionmillion wrote:Xavi doing more through balls than Messi is wrong and there is no fact about that. Xavi does through balls between 3-4 players when he feels it will be safe. But Messi does it without thinking

Saying that messi does it only through 1 player is fail. here are some his through balls


First of all I said generally speaking and 2nd I said that his passes generally go through 1layer of players not that his passes go through just 1 player and 3rd, I never said that Xavi does more throughballs, I said that there are more ways to be creative than just doing alot of throughballs. Like a over the defence pass towards the wings for a Alves, who will square it to the forwards to slot it in in a open goal..

And here are 2 videos with Xavis throughball



Its only last season that Xavi started to play alot safer, where as before - as you can see in the video that i posted - Xavi made alot of difficult passes. And also dont forget that while Messi makes the most throughballs, he also made the most inaccurate throughballs in last seasons CL with 38 failed attempts.


Last edited by harhar11 on Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:11 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by harhar11 Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:15 am

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:

I really dont know why you keep posting these clips. I havent said messi cant do any of that, honestly you seem to have a distorted view that if messi is good at something he is the best at it. Posting these impressive clips doesnt change that others were better.


This is the only thing that I have ever agreed with you and most likely ever will. Just because Messi is good at it, it doesnt mean that he is the best...

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Post by DuringTheWar Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:57 pm

jiopsi wrote: It's not one dimensional, it's perfect physics. If you slow down, players around you move faster in relation.:

Mostly when tricks are done well and smartly it quickens the tempo and surprises the opponent, making it more difficult to react. But anyway, it doesnt surprise me a messi fan would somehow try to devalue them.

jiopsi wrote:To give something, anything concrete to support your extremely subjective view. Laughing :

what view? i talked about the different dribbling styles, why do you think its my view they are similar? and why should i post videos of maradona? this is a discussion based forum, i presume you must have seen him play? if i can post a lot of his plays that you have never seen before then your opinion isnt really well founded is it? on the otherhand any clip you post of messi , in all likeyhood i have seen it already, so stop wasting your time with them!

jiopsi wrote:And just saying someone is better because of trivial things, doesn't change the fact that Messi is better passer than Maradona was, atleast for me.

Its not trivial, the only aspect messi is comparble to diego in passing is through balls and 1-2 plays. Round the corner passes, one touch passes, outside of the boot passes, chest passes, long passes, crosses, rabona passes, back heel passes, are all maradona specialties, he was the best i've seen at making a pass out of nearly nothing.

Being more suited doesn't mean being better. More intelligent support? Yeah, lol, that's nice way of bs'ing.

Of course it was better and more intelligent support, because along with his outsanding pass technique, it was his natural function in the team to set up plays. Messi is much more individualistic, much more a ball-carrier than a passer. The difference is messi is a dribbler who can pass well, maradona was a passer who could dribble well
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Post by Kingofeverythingclassy Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:03 am

The game has automatically got faster & sharper & Maradona is still better than Messi.

Messi is still awesome though

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Post by Harmonica Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:11 am

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Mostly when tricks are done well and smartly it quickens the tempo and surprises the opponent, making it more difficult to react. But anyway, it doesnt surprise me a messi fan would somehow try to devalue them.
It usually surprises only the one defender, hardly ever defender who is running to help etc. stops in awe. Coming from guy named Diego Maradona, that's pretty hilarious on itself.

what view? i talked about the different dribbling styles, why do you think its my view they are similar? and why should i post videos of maradona? this is a discussion based forum, i presume you must have seen him play? if i can post a lot of his plays that you have never seen before then your opinion isnt really well founded is it? on the otherhand any clip you post of messi , in all likeyhood i have seen it already, so stop wasting your time with them!
My opinion is very well rounded, I know what Maradona is cabable of, and that's why I can post stuff that Maradona never did so well, or at all. I've watched Maradona's World Cups, watched goal of the century live, and they used to show SerieA in my country in his Napoli years. For me you are overhyping him with trivial stuff, that's why I would like you to post something concrete, why you think this and that.

Its not trivial, the only aspect messi is comparble to diego in passing is through balls and 1-2 plays. Round the corner passes, one touch passes, outside of the boot passes, chest passes, long passes, crosses, rabona passes, back heel passes, are all maradona specialties, he was the best i've seen at making a pass out of nearly nothing.
It doesn't matter, only thing what matters is the overall passing ability, how well you build up the play or create scoring situations. And Messi is better at it. Nobody cares if you do rabona pass, when you can do it simple and more effective way. It's usually only corny and less effective way. And the same usually applies to dribbling and tricks.

Of course it was better and more intelligent support, because along with his outsanding pass technique, it was his natural function in the team to set up plays. Messi is much more individualistic, much more a ball-carrier than a passer. The difference is messi is a dribbler who can pass well, maradona was a passer who could dribble well
Well Messi is better passer, and better dribbler. He can play any position from midfield to attack. And relative to the different situations (teams, history, age etc), Maradona for me didn't play the number 10 any better than Messi did.
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Post by billionmillion Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:06 pm

harhar11 wrote:
First of all I said generally speaking and 2nd I said that his passes generally go through 1layer
Generally nobody does as many passes as Messi which goes through many players. From yesterday's game and look at messi's position
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Post by harhar11 Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:52 pm

billionmillion wrote:
harhar11 wrote:
First of all I said generally speaking and 2nd I said that his passes generally go through 1layer
Generally nobody does as many passes as Messi which goes through many players. From yesterday's game and look at messi's position

I knew immediately that you would post that right after i saw that pass yesterday...

And I still dont understand why you keep posting passes of Messi, seeing as I never said that he only makes passes that get past one line of defender. All that I said was that most of his passes were like that, NOT every single of his passes.

He still makes passes that goes past more than 1 line of defender but just not as many as Xavi nor does he do them as often as he does those throughballs that goes past just 1 line of defender...

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Post by Harmonica Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:01 pm

harhar11 wrote:He still makes passes that goes past more than 1 line of defender but just not as many as Xavi nor does he do them as often as he does those throughballs that goes past just 1 line of defender...
Do you have stats to back that up? Because I don't think that is the case.

This pass was actually between 4 ranks of players. Don't remember seeing similar pass.
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Post by billionmillion Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:55 pm

harhar11 wrote:
billionmillion wrote:
harhar11 wrote:
First of all I said generally speaking and 2nd I said that his passes generally go through 1layer
Generally nobody does as many passes as Messi which goes through many players. From yesterday's game and look at messi's position

I knew immediately that you would post that right after i saw that pass yesterday...

And I still dont understand why you keep posting passes of Messi, seeing as I never said that he only makes passes that get past one line of defender. All that I said was that most of his passes were like that, NOT every single of his passes.

He still makes passes that goes past more than 1 line of defender but just not as many as Xavi nor does he do them as often as he does those throughballs that goes past just 1 line of defender...
You just keep saying it but there is no fact about it. In last 2 seasons i didnt see any player who makes as many such passes as messi. if you have any facts then lets compare if not i dont buy your thoughts. Xavi being the best passer on planet doesnt mean he makes as many through balls as messi (which goes through 2-3 line of defenders)
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Post by harhar11 Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:09 pm

jiopsi wrote:
harhar11 wrote:He still makes passes that goes past more than 1 line of defender but just not as many as Xavi nor does he do them as often as he does those throughballs that goes past just 1 line of defender...
Do you have stats to back that up? Because I don't think that is the case.

This pass was actually between 4 ranks of players. Don't remember seeing similar pass.

I think that ALL stat are a complete bull and because of that I dont even know where to look at,so no I have no stat. But anyone who watches Barca, not last season but the years before that, would know that. You just need to watch those youtube videos that you keep posting and watch what kind of throughballs both Xavi and Messi makes..

And once again, throughballs is not the only way to be creative...

Edit: I forgot, you are right when you said that nobody does as many throughballs as messi but its also true that nobody have done as man inaccurate passes as Messi...

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Post by Harmonica Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:18 pm

harhar11 wrote:I think that ALL stat are a complete bull and because of that I dont even know where to look at,so no I have no stat. But anyone who watches Barca, not last season but the years before that, would know that. You just need to watch those youtube videos that you keep posting and watch what kind of throughballs both Xavi and Messi makes..
All stats are bull? Stats are math, the difficulty is only how to interpret them correctly. I've watched every Barca game past 4 seasons, and actually I have almost every game of past 8 seasons. So don't tell me to go watch some videos.

And once again, throughballs is not the only way to be creative...
And who said so?

Edit: I forgot, you are right when you said that nobody does as many throughballs as messi but its also true that nobody have done as man inaccurate passes as Messi...
The chance of scoring from throughball is a lot higher than risk of conceeding goal from loosing the ball. So it's the risk worth of taking even if you loose the ball.
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Post by harhar11 Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:54 pm

I do belive that you watch alot of barca games, but with messi tinted glasses as do billion. I mean billion tried to say that Xavi and Iniesta needed Messi at the Euro even though they have not needed Messi to win back to back Euros and have also had the time to win the WC.

If we go through stat like key passes, assist, throughballs and dribbles then I wouldnt be suprised to see Ronaldo having better stat than Scholes simply because he plays higher up the pitch and will be more involved dangerous plays and because most of scholes best passes were 40-50m over the defence to the wings rather than throughballs(btw not saying that Scholes never does throughball)but you wont find 1 Man Utd who thinks that Ronaldo is the more creative player.

Like a wise man once said - Lies, damn lies and statistics.

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Post by Harmonica Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:42 pm

harhar11 wrote:I do belive that you watch alot of barca games, but with messi tinted glasses as do billion. I mean billion tried to say that Xavi and Iniesta needed Messi at the Euro even though they have not needed Messi to win back to back Euros and have also had the time to win the WC.
Messi tinted classes? My opinions are almost always based on math, science, logical thinking or something concrete evidence. That's why I can always back my opinions up with something. And I'm not Billionmillion, so I can't speak for him.

You strike to me as a guy who got insulted by my praise of Messi, because it in balance may seems like undermining others. And that itself is based on assumptions, which for me in itself is wrong way of debating. Because when you start to assumpt things, debate escalates into one big mix of different stuff, which need to be discussed. And that is just tiring.

If we go through stat like key passes, assist, throughballs and dribbles then I wouldnt be suprised to see Ronaldo having better stat than Scholes simply because he plays higher up the pitch and will be more involved dangerous plays and because most of scholes best passes were 40-50m over the defence to the wings rather than throughballs(btw not saying that Scholes never does throughball)but you wont find 1 Man Utd who thinks that Ronaldo is the more creative player. Like a wise man once said - Lies, damn lies and statistics.
Like I said in the beginning, I presented them as 4 of more creative or play advancing statistics. I didn't say they define creativity on whole. Do you disagree with this?
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Post by billionmillion Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:58 pm

harhar we are talking about messi's through balls not my personal biography. neither ronaldo and scholes. you said nothing about messi's through balls in your last post. a man acts like this when he has nothing to say but can not accept it. facts or dont post again (if you post dont act like you are the wisest man here and we should accept what you say)
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Post by DuringTheWar Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:22 am

jiopsi wrote:
My opinion is very well rounded, I know what Maradona is cabable of, and that's why I can post stuff that Maradona never did so well, or at all. I've watched Maradona's World Cups, watched goal of the century live, and they used to show SerieA in my country in his Napoli years. For me you are overhyping him with trivial stuff, that's why I would like you to post something concrete, why you think this and that..

From your first comment in this thread it sounds like 86 was your first football experience? who remember clearly when they started watching football? i dont, the same problem would apply to the following years at napoli. To make it worse, after 87 he wasnt even at his best anymore, in the world cup 90 he had all kinds of problems, most players wouldnt even have been playing, so you probably have some vague memory that gets clearer as maradona as a player declined, leaving you with a not well rounded impression.

jiopsi wrote:
It doesn't matter, only thing what matters is the overall passing ability, how well you build up the play or create scoring situations. And Messi is better at it. Nobody cares if you do rabona pass, when you can do it simple and more effective way. It's usually only corny and less effective way. And the same usually applies to dribbling and tricks..

Usually you are right,, but not when it is a GENIUS who is doing it!

More effective way? many of maradonas rabonas set up great chances to score. But this a moot point because his conventional crossing and passing was better as well. The unconventional passes just further emphasise the higher level of technique he had, and his ability to set up chances out of nothing when the only way to pass conventially would be backwards.

Okay you want videos, i would also like anyone else reading to watch all these and say if they think messi can pass as well as some of these clips









jiopsi wrote: And relative to the different situations (teams, history, age etc), Maradona for me didn't play the number 10 any better than Messi did.

lol, do explain
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Post by harhar11 Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:10 pm

jiopsi wrote:
harhar11 wrote:I do belive that you watch alot of barca games, but with messi tinted glasses as do billion. I mean billion tried to say that Xavi and Iniesta needed Messi at the Euro even though they have not needed Messi to win back to back Euros and have also had the time to win the WC.
Messi tinted classes? My opinions are almost always based on math, science, logical thinking or something concrete evidence. That's why I can always back my opinions up with something. And I'm not Billionmillion, so I can't speak for him.

You strike to me as a guy who got insulted by my praise of Messi, because it in balance may seems like undermining others. And that itself is based on assumptions, which for me in itself is wrong way of debating. Because when you start to assumpt things, debate escalates into one big mix of different stuff, which need to be discussed. And that is just tiring.

If we go through stat like key passes, assist, throughballs and dribbles then I wouldnt be suprised to see Ronaldo having better stat than Scholes simply because he plays higher up the pitch and will be more involved dangerous plays and because most of scholes best passes were 40-50m over the defence to the wings rather than throughballs(btw not saying that Scholes never does throughball)but you wont find 1 Man Utd who thinks that Ronaldo is the more creative player. Like a wise man once said - Lies, damn lies and statistics.
Like I said in the beginning, I presented them as 4 of more creative or play advancing statistics. I didn't say they define creativity on whole. Do you disagree with this?

I may have interpreted your words wrong but you seem to think that those stat that you posted proved why Messi is more creative than Xavi, meaning that those are the only things that matters in terms of creativity. So if I am indeed wrong then I apologize..

I agree that those are some of the abilities that shows creativity, especially throughballs, but I think that stats like key passes is pretty useless. I mean Xavi, I think, was the player who made the 2nd most key passes in the grp stage at the EURO but I, I who has been saying that Xavi is generally more creative than Messi, thought that Xavi was pretty mediocre in terms of creativity throughout the EURO bar the final. Heck Xavi himself said before the final that he had not been at his best.

billionmillion wrote:harhar we are talking about messi's through balls not my personal biography. neither ronaldo and scholes. you said nothing about messi's through balls in your last post. a man acts like this when he has nothing to say but can not accept it. facts or dont post again (if you post dont act like you are the wisest man here and we should accept what you say)

Because I have already said what I though about the throughballs things, and I dont want to repeat what I had already said about the subject.

And btw we were not just talking about throughballs, we were talking about how credible stats are. Go and reread the post and you will see that I mentioned very early that I dont care for stat very much. And hence why I made the Paul Scholes - Ronaldo comparison..

PS: If I have offended you guys then I apologize, but I just think that some of your post is very pro Messi. And this is coming from a guy who's 2nd favorite player is Messi himself(the other being Iniesta, so its not like I am biased in favour of Xavi) and have defended Messi thousands of times on this board and belive that Messi is by faaar the best player on this planet..

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Post by Harmonica Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:01 pm

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:From your first comment in this thread it sounds like 86 was your first football experience? who remember clearly when they started watching football? i dont, the same problem would apply to the following years at napoli. To make it worse, after 87 he wasnt even at his best anymore, in the world cup 90 he had all kinds of problems, most players wouldnt even have been playing, so you probably have some vague memory that gets clearer as maradona as a player declined, leaving you with a not well rounded impression.
It's not like the World Cup's aren't in the internet for everybody to watch. I've pretty much every Argentina game in the World Cups and some of Maradona's Copa games also. Easy to rewatch. Why I said that I've watched Maradona in his years, was to differentiate myself from the youtube folks, where you can watch his highlights pretty comprehensively. So can you enlighten your story? How did you follow him in them years?

Usually you are right,, but not when it is a GENIUS who is doing it!

More effective way? many of maradonas rabonas set up great chances to score. But this a moot point because his conventional crossing and passing was better as well. The unconventional passes just further emphasise the higher level of technique he had, and his ability to set up chances out of nothing when the only way to pass conventially would be backwards.

Okay you want videos, i would also like anyone else reading to watch all these and say if they think messi can pass as well as some of these clips
You are right, Maradona was a genius. He was a GOAT for me over two decades. And your videos, I can't figure how that could give you that impression? For me they just emphasize of my opinion that Messi is already better passer. Messi does stuff like that, and more impressive stuff (atleast for me) almost in every game.

Some inside foot long and short lobs:

Spoiler:

Some outside foot long and short lobs, throughballs

Spoiler:

Right foot lob

Spoiler:

Some first touch passing

Spoiler:

Some defence cutting short passing

Spoiler:

Some whole team cutting long passing

Spoiler:

Some 12 passing

Spoiler:

Some carrying and assisting:

Spoiler:

Then there is the normal 1 or 2 ranks throughball passing, which Messi is master of. Messi does stuff like this in every game. For me that is more impressive, what I remember from Maradona, or what can be watched in youtube.


Last edited by jiopsi on Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:16 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by Harmonica Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:12 pm

harhar11 wrote:I may have interpreted your words wrong but you seem to think that those stat that you posted proved why Messi is more creative than Xavi, meaning that those are the only things that matters in terms of creativity. So if I am indeed wrong then I apologize..

I agree that those are some of the abilities that shows creativity, especially throughballs, but I think that stats like key passes is pretty useless. I mean Xavi, I think, was the player who made the 2nd most key passes in the grp stage at the EURO but I, I who has been saying that Xavi is generally more creative than Messi, thought that Xavi was pretty mediocre in terms of creativity throughout the EURO bar the final. Heck Xavi himself said before the final that he had not been at his best.
For me Messi is more creative on the base of the quantity of the more ridiculous passing and creating scoring situations. For me Xavi is more like a distribution machine, which he is the best at, who distributes the ball on somewhat machine like, or predetermined way, not so much in a creative way. Also when stuff gets though, it's usually Messi who creates scoring situations from nothing.
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Post by harhar11 Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:33 pm

jiopsi wrote:
harhar11 wrote:I may have interpreted your words wrong but you seem to think that those stat that you posted proved why Messi is more creative than Xavi, meaning that those are the only things that matters in terms of creativity. So if I am indeed wrong then I apologize..

I agree that those are some of the abilities that shows creativity, especially throughballs, but I think that stats like key passes is pretty useless. I mean Xavi, I think, was the player who made the 2nd most key passes in the grp stage at the EURO but I, I who has been saying that Xavi is generally more creative than Messi, thought that Xavi was pretty mediocre in terms of creativity throughout the EURO bar the final. Heck Xavi himself said before the final that he had not been at his best.
For me Messi is more creative on the base of the quantity of the more ridiculous passing and creating scoring situations. For me Xavi is more like a distribution machine, which he is the best at, who distributes the ball on somewhat machine like, or predetermined way, not so much in a creative way. Also when stuff gets though, it's usually Messi who creates scoring situations from nothing.

Last season ok, I have already admitted that but before that? You like stats so you must remember that Xavi was our top assister for 2 seasons in a row, in one of those he made34 assist(!!!) in just 1 season, including 4 in just one game at the home of our biggest rival. I mean thats even more assist than what Messi got last season!

And in those time Xavi created tons of scoring situations from nothing in tough situations, like that pass for Messis goal(that btw didnt count as a key pass nor assist because it was a pass to alves who in turn made a easy pass to Messi who only needed tp tap-it in) against Malaga 2 years ago.

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Post by Harmonica Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:46 pm

harhar11 wrote:Last season ok, I have already admitted that but before that? You like stats so you must remember that Xavi was our top assister for 2 seasons in a row, in one of those he made34 assist(!!!) in just 1 season, including 4 in just one game at the home of our biggest rival. I mean thats even more assist than what Messi got last season!

And in those time Xavi created tons of scoring situations from nothing in tough situations, like that pass for Messis goal(that btw didnt count as a key pass nor assist because it was a pass to alves who in turn made a easy pass to Messi who only needed tp tap-it in) against Malaga 2 years ago.
Xavi has what, around 150 assists (strict rules) in last 11 seasons (excluding first 3 introduction seasons in Barca). Messi has around 100 assists (strict rules) in his last 5 seasons (excluding his first 3 introduction seasons in Barcelona). That's an average of 20 (Messi) vs. 14 (Xavi). Now, add that to every goal they have created and scored by an individual effort, or by using someone else as a tool to create and score a goal, and the numbers will differ even more. And Messi himself makes a lot of creative contributions even without an assist or a goal.

Like in last Clasico

Spoiler:
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Post by billionmillion Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:12 pm

harhar11 wrote:

billionmillion wrote:harhar we are talking about messi's through balls not my personal biography. neither ronaldo and scholes. you said nothing about messi's through balls in your last post. a man acts like this when he has nothing to say but can not accept it. facts or dont post again (if you post dont act like you are the wisest man here and we should accept what you say)

Because I have already said what I though about the throughballs things, and I dont want to repeat what I had already said about the subject.

And btw we were not just talking about throughballs, we were talking about how credible stats are. Go and reread the post and you will see that I mentioned very early that I dont care for stat very much. And hence why I made the Paul Scholes - Ronaldo comparison..

PS: If I have offended you guys then I apologize, but I just think that some of your post is very pro Messi. And this is coming from a guy who's 2nd favorite player is Messi himself(the other being Iniesta, so its not like I am biased in favour of Xavi) and have defended Messi thousands of times on this board and belive that Messi is by faaar the best player on this planet..
No we were talking about through balls and i asked you questions but you started to talk about scholes,ronaldo and tinted glasses. if you already told what you thought then why keep quoting. ok anyway

i'm not biased against xavi i never said a bad thing about him. but you seem to believe what media says. Xavi is not Messi or Iniesta and is not on their level at creativity. Some years ago he was but not now. Now his main strength is leadership, controlling the game and sending Messi/Iniesta/Fabregas level passes (overall a bit better than them). he has great vision, great first touch and agility. Nobody has these abilities at his age and you can not find another midfielder with all these abilities so thats why Xavi is unique not because of creativity or through balls
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Post by aford92 Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:36 pm

All he needs is 1 good World Cup, he doesn't have to win it he just has to play really well and then for me, he is the best ever.
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Post by Ion Creanga Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:36 pm

the question of this topic it's serious?

how can you decide if a player is the best in the world, and more.. the best in the history? why is messi better than gigi buffon?
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Post by DuringTheWar Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:52 pm

jiopsi wrote:It's not like the World Cup's aren't in the internet for everybody to watch. I've pretty much every Argentina game in the World Cups and some of Maradona's Copa games also. Easy to rewatch. Why I said that I've watched Maradona in his years, was to differentiate myself from the youtube folks, where you can watch his highlights pretty comprehensively. So can you enlighten your story? How did you follow him in them years?

World cups account for about about 1% of his career if that, one of which he was young and out of form as well as being kicked out by defenders, one where he had multiple fitness problems, and one where he was banned before the important games. He played the tournament of his career in 86, but still, there is a vast array of things he did at clubs and other games that he didnt do in world cups. As you ask, i've followed closely, from youngster to veteran, i have at home old games from his career that arent even on youtube i dont think.

jiopsi wrote:And your videos, I can't figure how that could give you that impression? For me they just emphasize of my opinion that Messi is already better passer. Messi does stuff like that, and more impressive stuff (atleast for me) almost in every game.

That just isnt true. Those videos contain some passes that messi hasnt even got close to.... show me messi laying off a long ball first time with his chest to assist teammates, show me messi passing with his knee, show me a back healed through ball by messi, a flying outside of boot one touch kick at high speed, bicycle passes, crossing the ball perfectly by wrapping his left foot behind his right leg, perfect through ball along the ground with the same technique, ect this could go on and on. What this dont show is the regularity, he could do this type of thing over and over again game in game out, stuff that messi cant even do once....

and how can they give you the impression messi is better? all they are is just a drop in an ocean, if you think messi can do better than those passes then i just need to show you a different kind of passing. What is messi supposedly better at? through balls? 1-2s? anything else?
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Post by Harmonica Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:05 pm

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:World cups account for about about 1% of his career if that, one of which he was young and out of form as well as being kicked out by defenders, one where he had multiple fitness problems, and one where he was banned before the important games. He played the tournament of his career in 86, but still, there is a vast array of things he did at clubs and other games that he didnt do in world cups. As you ask, i've followed closely, from youngster to veteran, i have at home old games from his career that arent even on youtube i dont think.
Yeah, like you I've followed him closely, so there's that.

jiopsi wrote:That just isnt true. Those videos contain some passes that messi hasnt even got close to.... show me messi laying off a long ball first time with his chest to assist teammates, show me messi passing with his knee, show me a back healed through ball by messi, a flying outside of boot one touch kick at high speed, bicycle passes, crossing the ball perfectly by wrapping his left foot behind his right leg, perfect through ball along the ground with the same technique, ect this could go on and on. What this dont show is the regularity, he could do this type of thing over and over again game in game out, stuff that messi cant even do once....

and how can they give you the impression messi is better? all they are is just a drop in an ocean, if you think messi can do better than those passes then i just need to show you a different kind of passing. What is messi supposedly better at? through balls? 1-2s? anything else?
For me it is. Stuff like passing with knee, or other body parts, is just trivial stuff. Messi has assisted with his head, chest and what ever. It's not impressive at all. Like I said, using tricks is usually just less effective and corny way of doing things, atleast when you are as good as Messi doing things in the same situations.

For me from videos you posted, Messi's more prominent passes seems more difficult, better aimed, more controlled and better weighted in average.
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