The Illusionist : Don Andrés Iniesta

The Franchise wrote:What is this total rubbish. Assists? Go away man lol

Such a rubbish stat with no meaning.

Give me 25m pass splitting an entire teams line than a sideways cross under no pressure for someone to tap in, all day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD95roRtKDI

First damn thing you see in the video is Iniesta creating something...when surprise surprise he is in a position to do so.

Carry on though, no assist after all

Assists can be a rubbish stat and are not a fair comparison for the quality across players, but for the same player, at the same club, playing the same position, I think it gives you an appreciation for how involved he is in goal-making plays. You could use key passes or pre-assists, but I'm sure they would both confirm what is plain for everyone to see: Iniesta, this season, has not had much of an impact the build up game.

Whether this is mostly because of a tactical change or because of a decline, either physical or motivational, remains to be seen. It is probably a bit of both, and if Enrique leaves we will see whether Iniesta can do it in a new role. He wasn't setting the world on fire either in Martino's 2nd half.

These facts are fairly uncontroversial.

The Franchise wrote:
Im sorry if im not willing to make bold statements like you..who insist he must have declined and we cant blame the system.

I don't quiet understand that, what is wrong with talking about what we think in a forum.

not pointing just at you but lately whenever someone says a statement, for example mine.
it's looked down upon.

I said a sentence of what i believe, i expect people here to respond either agree or disagree and we talk about it.

suddenly because someone in this example you, disagrees with me (i don't even know if you disagree)
you talk down my "knowledge of football"

this style of commenting will really bring down sections in forums if we're all lead to think the same way.. or if we disagree we stay quiet.

Has any player ever had assists in three UCL finals? Yes perhaps a few but it is still something special.

Perhaps more importantly Iniesta has had a very significant influence in four of our UCL final victories - 2006, 2009, 2011 and 2015.

Now for the clincher.

Has any player ever been man of the match in a world cup final, a Euro final and a UCL final ???

The key thing with Iniesta is that he doesn't have impressive big numbers on a regular basis but in the biggest of matches and biggest of moments he has the knack to get things done that is way beyond most other players.

messixaviesta wrote:Has any player ever had assists in three UCL finals? Yes perhaps a few but it is still something special.

Now for the clincher.

Has any player ever been man of the match in a world cup final, a Euro final and a UCL final ???

When was Iniesta motm in the Euros? Xavi was the best player on the pitch in 12 and Torres was in 12

Official MOTM was Iniesta in 2012. Although real MOTM was Xavi.

Official MOTM in 2008 I don't remember. Was it Torres because of the goal? Real MOTM was again Xavi anyway.

Iniesta was the UEFA Player of the Torunament, jibers.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJUskz_WsAEfDpf.png

not a hamstring tear, but a sprain, which is good news and it means a three-week absence, at worst

Pirloisjesus wrote:not a hamstring tear, but a sprain, which is good news and it means a three-week absence, at worst

Oh, good. He could be back in a week then, but with his record, is good that he waits and comes back stronger.

It's going to be a very hard time for Lucho. Wonder who would Start at midfield though against Seville

On Twitter I came across a long thread about one of the old time favorite topics at this forum.

Why is Iniesta not regarded as highly as Zidane?

While I do think that Iniesta has given a higher number of key decisive performances in crucial games for club and country and has won more than Zidane both for club and country, it's Zidane's stand out performances that people remember more.

Some of the reasons given at Twitter were interesting. A few may even be humorous. Let's start with that one first.

1. If he played for Real Madrid the hype around him would be that much more. They insisted that Iniesta is not given the PR by any major national association while Zidane got it from both France and Spain.

2. Shared credit due to the presence of Messi, Xavi, etc. Some however argued that in Zidane's Juve days Del Piero was even better than him, Rivaldo and Figo were as good without that many trophies and if the original Ronaldo had never gotten injured Zidane would have faced the kind of competition that today's players face from Messi.

3. I tweeted the point that dani had made earlier - twice the size, strength, aerial ability, set piece ability, better goal scoring.

4. Ballon D'ors and player of the year awards. Some again argued that Zidane didn't have to compete with Messi and Cristiano in his days.

5. One person said maestro Xavi is better than either. I replied that he is certainly more consistent but Zidane is perceived as having the combination of the skill sets of Xavi and Iniesta though he isn't as complete a controller and orchestrator of the midfield as Xavi. What people somewhat agreed with is that both Zidane and Iniesta are somewhat inconsistent but their habit of stepping up in big games hides that to some extent.

6. Zidane is more marketable than Iniesta.

7. Zidane was always like a lord on the pitch. Iniesta has the unique ability to switch between being the MVP and being a mere cog in the wheel and vice versa within seconds. This is great for the team but reduces the aura around him as a player. Zidane would never do the kind of hard work for the team that Iniesta does. Even yesterday amidst all the flair on show one moment that stood out is how Iniesta made a lightning fast challenge to recover the ball and quickly move the play forward.

8. Some said that once Iniesta retires and a few years pass, the sentimental outpouring towards him will make him be perceived as even better than he is today.

9. Some said Zidane was the best player for club and country while Iniesta never was. Some counter-argued that for club it's actually Del Piero and Ronaldo who were the best players. I added that ever since Del Bosque took over Iniesta has been the MVP for Spain until very recently when David Silva has started moving into that role.

10. Zidane is remembered for some key games - WC 1998 final, UCL 2002 final and WC 2006 quarter final are probably the three biggest stand outs. As I said before Iniesta has had even more such key games but in his case the credit has almost invariably been shared by at least one other player. In these three games and some others people remember Zidane as having won the game single handedly (though that may not necessarily be completely true) while Iniesta is never thought to have won any game single handedly. I like pointing out that the WC 98 final which effectively made Zidane what he became was a gift because of Ronaldo's fit. People sometimes forget that many of the greatest of players need one or more lucky breaks to become as great as they are. Later they are perceived as always having been that great while that may not necessarily have been the exact case.

I maintain that Xavi is the best midfielder the game has ever seen. But I also acknowledge that Iniesta will surpass him quite comfortably and cement himself as the greatest ever. By the time he is done, Iniesta will be a top 10 all timer and only the likes of Cruyff/Pele/Maradona/Messi etc will be ahead of him.

Iniesta vs Zidane is a non contest as far as I am concerned. Iniesta is comfortably the better player and is a level above Zidane by any parameter. Better peak performance, more magical,better passer, better tactically,more versatile, better consistency, better big game player and much better defender.
I just run out of words to describe Iniesta. The most magical dribbler I have seen.

Zidane is an overated POS.

He was absolutely brilliant today. Was always in the right place defensively, amazing under pressure, and flawless with his passing both out from the back and in the final third. Such a joy to watch as a neutral. It's a crime that he's still so underrated.

Cruijf wrote:He was absolutely brilliant today. Was always in the right place defensively, amazing under pressure, and flawless with his passing both out from the back and in the final third. Such a joy to watch as a neutral. It's a crime that he's still so underrated.

He's back to old form. Busquets too. Long may it continue.

alexjanosik wrote:I maintain that Xavi is the best midfielder the game has ever seen. But I also acknowledge that Iniesta will surpass him quite comfortably and cement himself as the greatest ever. By the time he is done, Iniesta will be a top 10 all timer and only the likes of Cruyff/Pele/Maradona/Messi etc will be ahead of him.

Iniesta vs Zidane is a non contest as far as I am concerned. Iniesta is comfortably the better player and is a level above Zidane by any parameter. Better peak performance, more magical,better passer, better tactically,more versatile, better consistency, better big game player and much better defender.
I just run out of words to describe Iniesta. The most magical dribbler I have seen.

alex, even though I am known to be the greatest fan of Iniesta at this forum the kind of praise you have written for him and the kind of optimism you have expressed for his future is even more than what I could have ever said. I'll admit it felt great reading it all though.

I don't know how long Iniesta can continue to be crucial for Barcelona. In Luis Enrique's system he plays a functional role most of the times and is required to do something really special only once in a while. As long as MSN are all there Messi runs the game, the forwards is what really matters and everything else is the support cast. Besides as he grows older health and fitness issues can start to catch up.

It's also hard to see Spain winning one more tournament playing the same kind of football that made them so successful in the past. Times have moved on. Even if they do it's now David Silva who takes the role of main play maker in the position that Iniesta used to occupy and Iniesta has moved deeper. He still remains important but if Spain were to somehow win Euro 2016 Silva would be more likely to end as the MVP.

Andres Iniesta now has 29 trophies :-

1 World Cup
4 Uefa Champions League
2 Euro
7 La Liga
3 Club World Cup
3 Uefa Super Cup
3 Copa Del Rey
6 Spanish Super Cup

It must be the highest for any player in many years.

Playing a great season. Busquets too.

Man, I hope they won't suddenly drop this form.

Messi and Iniesta pass Xavi as most trophies in Barca, with 26.

They all will.. But how quickly they would pick up form is another matter entirely

messixaviesta wrote:Andres Iniesta now has 29 trophies :-

1 World Cup
4 Uefa Champions League
2 Euro
7 La Liga
3 Club World Cup
3 Uefa Super Cup
3 Copa Del Rey
6 Spanish Super Cup

It must be the highest for any player in many years.

Alves has 33.

So after yet another splendid season(for my money, he was the best midfielder in the world), where does Iniesta rank in the pantheon of greats.
A few years ago, Van Hanegem(himself a great midfielder), said that Iniesta was one of the top 5 players of all time. At the time, I laughed it off and thought he must be going bonkers.
Few years down the line, I think it is time we add Iniesta to the pantheon of greats.

I must admit that I was not convinced of Iniesta's class early on. I used to think that he lacked end product and was overrated. It took a while but the little magician has slowly won me over. The only remaining question mark for me was whether he could do it without Xavi, whether he could dominate the big games and the big stage without his old partner in crime. Over the last couple of years, he has emphatically proven that he can. Whats even more impressive is that he has done so in the twilight of his career in a completely new and unflattering role.
He is basically asked to be Alba's water carrier in Enrique's system and yet has managed to dominate the big games like the CL final last season, the Clasico this season and the recent Copa Del Rey final.

I watched the Copa final again yesterday and it was a spellbinding performance. Down a man and facing a tough Sevilla team, Iniesta once more showed why he is the best big game player the game has ever seen. Think of it. Over the years he has been active, we have had the likes of Eto'o, Henry, Xavi, Messi, Villa, Neymar, Suarez, Alves etc. And yet on the biggest of stages, more often than not, it has been Iniesta who has risen to the occasion and shined the brightest. Simply unrivaled as a big game player.
He also makes it a point  to impact the biggest games with his dribbling. His dribbling against Sevilla was magical as it usually is in the biggest games. He is not fast, he does not have acceleration and yet he just seems to glide past players. Taking speed and acceleration out, he is the best dribbler I have seen.

So to go back to the question, where does he rank in the pantheon of greats? It is an interesting question and one worth debating. Given all that he has done, I rank him in the top 10.
I would rank only Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer and Puskas definitely ahead of him. The likes of Messi, Di Stefano, Platini and Iniesta make out the bottom five. Many will put Messi in the top tier but until he has a dominant international performance I personally wont.
And in a crunch game, I would take Iniesta above all of them with my eyes closed.

Hard to tell it. Example Zidane is basically a iniesta with some scoring abilities, 3 ballon dor, world cup and cl titles. yet you didnt put him in the top tier. What makes you think Iniesta will have such status?

Seems scoring is important factor. at least top tier looks like this. maybe this is really hard thing to do? or it puts you in headlines more? with more headlines you become a brand. with brand you get fans, with fans more comparisons, with more comparisons it becomes more obvious. So you have Iniesta compared to maradona and pele. Zidane had all of it, yet it looks like he is forgotten

It makes you confused. What is the factor. Probably you need to have everything to be in top tier. i mean everything. SCORING, passing, running, DRIBBLING, fame, TITLES, individual awards. Scoring and dribbling is for youtube show, and titles is to back it up 30 years later.
You need to be a machine and win everything to belong in top tier. after a great game we can see him in top 10 but my opinion is that if Iniesta retired he will be top 20 not top 10

Yes, all the GOAT candidates except the Kaiser have scoring. The list is biased towards forwards and scorers which is unfair imo.
For me, scoring is irrelevant. I have my own criteria to rank players. I look at peak level,technical ability, consistency, versatility, big match temperament, NT performance, longevity and genius.
Iniesta ticks all the boxes. You mention Zidane who is basically a poor man's Iniesta. Zidane is sometimes mentioned in a top 10.
If an overrated player like Zidane makes the list, a much superior player like Iniesta definitely should.

alex, I am reading your article so late. As someone who is very likely Iniesta's greatest fan at this forum and is pretty much an obsessed devotee of his, thank you from the bottom of my heart.

I have been feeling a little down in the last few days. It's very different from the high I was feeling before that. It had all started so wonderfully. Two swashbuckling performances from my hero and two man of the match awards to go with that. Its easier to judge in hindsight but maybe playing the same eleven against Croatia, some of whom are 30+, was a mistake. The Spanish team seemed so tired against Italy. Maybe the era was anyway ending and this was inevitable but I cannot deny the optimism I was feeling with the start.

For those who are unaware of this or do not remember it, Andres Iniesta is probably the only player ever to have won man of the match in a world cup final, a Euro final and a UCL final. The other day a commentator called him the most technically perfect player on the planet.

In today's times when we look at those who are considered great players or major promises of the future, one common characteristic often is that they are great athletes. For instance the kind of hype that Paul Pogba enjoys today is much more than Xavi and Iniesta had when they were of his age. So with so little in terms of speed and strength and with only technical and cerebral qualities to rely on, to achieve what Xavi and Iniesta have done is all the more phenomenal.

Two days back I came across an article which declared that Iniesta has the highest number of man of the match awards in Euros (6) and the man chasing him closest has 5 awards and he is none other than Cristiano. I enjoy man of the match statistics more than scoring statistics.

The Euro now has a final featuring what I consider two ordinary teams. Germany was the best team and they threw it away with their own stupidity. That does not displease me because this means that Xavi and Iniesta's Spain is the only truly great international team seen in many years and the success records of our players considering both club and international football will remain unchallenged in this era. Germany missed their chance to define an era. While I have never been a France supporter and do not think anything much of this team I just have to hope that Portugal does not win. If they do Cristiano could equal Iniesta's man of the match awards at the Euros, win the same player of the tournament award that Xavi and Iniesta won the last two times and do what Messi never did - win a senior international title. All this is too much of a disaster for me but it could very well happen. To be very honest Cristiano has never lit up a final. In UCL 2008 he had a good first half but went off the boil and in the 2014 and 2016 finals he was much worse. Can he change all that on Sunday? I hope not. If he wins then he could become for Portugal what Maradona is for Argentina - a demi god. This is a status that Messi will now clearly never attain outside of Barcelona.

Anyway as you said no one matches Iniesta in big matches, at least no one in a long time in football. Cristiano doesn't have Iniesta's world cup performances and he hasn't even been the official man of the match in a UCL final. Yet whether we like it or not Messi and Cristiano will always be spoken of and valued higher than Xavi and Iniesta. Let's not feel too bad about it. The world is obsessed with goal scorers and athleticism, two qualities our midfield maestros clearly lack. Even then there is no denying that if we consider the last several years positions #3 and #4 have to go to these two in whatever order. #5 I guess should go to Andrea Pirlo. There have been so many players who have from time to time been called the third best in the world chasing Messi and Cristiano but neither were they consistent enough nor did they deliver much in big matches. Therefore in future when football enthusiasts look back on the present era I am both hopeful and confident that they will consider Xavi and Iniesta among the defining players of this era and in the top five. Recently Ben Hayward of Goal.com claimed that Iniesta is the best Spanish player of all time. I think this honor has to be shared between Xavi and Iniesta as they are now comfortably ahead of the likes of Luis Suarez and Raul.

Lastly you missed one name in your list and discussion - Garrincha. This is a name often ignored much to the chagrin of the likes of dani and me.

You are welcome jd. You should post more often. Always a pleasure reading your posts.
I really dont rate CR that highly. He doesnt have the peak performance, doesnt have the big match performance and doesnt have the elite technical ability.
Also he is quite a selfish player and he doesnt make his team play better. IMO, Xavi and Iniesta are comfortably superior players. If I am making all time eleven's, CR wouldn t even make my 3rd team. Xavi and Iniesta would make my first.

Garrincha is a strange one. I dont think he is a top 10 player. I watch him and I am not overly impressed. Yes, he was a great player but not top 10 imo.